test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

A Lesson in Ethics (and boxes)

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
QUESTIONS:

Is it ethical to encourage people to endlessly purchase keys in their pursuit of the Galor Class ship, given the low probability of actually obtaining the ship? (Estimated at 1/200 or 0.5%) AND the often useless alternative rewards (batteries).

Is Cryptic encouraging people of all ages to gamble? People are seeing <player name> received a Galor Class, which is encouraging people to buy more keys although their actual chances of finding a ship for themselves remains unchanged. It's a bit like some one you know winning the lottery, so you go and buy a ticket yourself.


ANSWER:

You decide?


My solution would be to make the Galor ship automatically drop if you have already spend a certain number of C-points (say 2500). This would at least limit the financial damage done to an individual in pursuit of a ship and spending more and more in the hope of finding one.

My other solution would be a reusable key. You buy the key (say 1000 c-points) and can use it as many times as you like. If Cryptic want to limit the number of ships in the game, then they can set a cap on the number that appear. At least this way you are not buying endless keys hoping that the next box you open just might be a ship.

Both these solutions will of course net Cryptic a huge amount of money, but probably less than they are currently getting using their current method of buying endless keys (or at least 200 keys). Therefore, it would take a truly moral approach to put the customer ahead of gross profit.

Happy gambling!
Post edited by Unknown User on
«1

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    People have to be responsible for their own actions.

    Players need to realise that the drop rates are unpublished and thos emessages that flash accross the screen don't tell you how many other boxes had to be opened to get that ship. Personally, I abhor gambling, and keep my money well away from it, but if you are going to have a punt at these, it is up to you to know where to draw the line, and to stop before it causes you financial damage. In short, if you will buy keys, buy only as many as you can afford and if you don't get what you want, learnt that lesson for next time.

    Cryptic need to realise that although this is a good short term money maker, this model has often been shown to be unsustainable by many of the other grindfest-P2W games out there, including PWE's titles. Without meaningful improvements to the game, the playerbase will shrink, that includes the light spenders and the "whales". If you absolutely have to use grab bags, do so with restraint and make efforts to improve the game in a way that will ensure long term profitability and the games survival.

    So, people, on both sides, have to be responsible for their own actions, and bear the results if they fail to do so.
    SirJet wrote: »
    Therefore, it would take a truly moral approach to put the customer ahead of gross profit.

    Not necessarily. I work in retail management, I dont treat my customers well for the sake of it, I do so because a happy satisfied customer comes back. I'd rather get £20 out of someone once a month than £100 and never see them again. Of course theres more to it than that, those customers wont sustain a business on their own but over time they will give you more than the average customer.

    As I mentioned earlier, I abhor gambling, I have to say I dont think its ethical, especially when there's children playing but again, the adults should know better and the children shouldnt have access to you credit cards.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    People have to be responsible for their own actions.

    Yeah, there is little else that can be argued then this. Suggestions like people should get it if they spend X amount of money doesnt make sense. That is like saying if you spend 5,000 dollars on lottery tickets, you are entitled to win the lottery. You arent. It is a random thing. You can spend endless amount of money and never win or get the thing you want here.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Heres an idea, maybe there is only 1 galor every 10 hours and the rest of the announcements are just from a name generator to encourage compulsive spending. Wouldn't surprise me one bit.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Gambling is a well known and serious addiction. The lock box is just a subtle form of that. PW's business model is to prey on the vulnerable, just look at all the "I spent way more $ then I can afford and got nothing" posts.

    The east has a history of exploiting it's people now they are exporting that. There should be some legislation on this by the government or game industry. Cost caps on micro-transactions, a maximum monthly purchasable c-point limit... something

    This is a much bigger problem then some realize.

    http://lawofthegame.blogspot.com/2007/12/real-money-transactions-can-lead-to.html
    http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/09/22/nexon-ncsoft-refuse-to-fully-cooperate-with-south-korean-mmo-ga/
    http://www.us-cert.gov/reading_room/gaming.pdf
    http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/pc/2011/09/19/the-microtransaction-investigation/


    I think to a certain extant this is unethical.

    -Cheers
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Adamma. wrote: »
    Gambling is a well known and serious addiction. The lock box is just a subtle form of that. PW's business model is to prey on the vulnerable, just look at all the "I spent way more $ then I can afford and got nothing" posts.

    The east has a history of exploiting it's people now they are exporting that. There should be some legislation on this by the government or game industry. Cost caps on micro-transactions, a maximum monthly purchasable c-point limit... something

    This is a much bigger problem then some realize.

    http://lawofthegame.blogspot.com/2007/12/real-money-transactions-can-lead-to.html
    http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/09/22/nexon-ncsoft-refuse-to-fully-cooperate-with-south-korean-mmo-ga/
    http://www.us-cert.gov/reading_room/gaming.pdf
    http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/pc/2011/09/19/the-microtransaction-investigation/


    I think to a certain extant this is unethical.

    -Cheers

    It certainly does sound unethical.......does Star Trek have a age rating?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    CapTrott wrote: »
    Yeah, there is little else that can be argued then this. Suggestions like people should get it if they spend X amount of money doesnt make sense. That is like saying if you spend 5,000 dollars on lottery tickets, you are entitled to win the lottery. You arent. It is a random thing. You can spend endless amount of money and never win or get the thing you want here.

    True but as I mentioned it goes both ways, Cryptic havea responsibility to not exploit people, one I dont feel they're going to live up to as I envision these grab bags becoming a much more common feature, and the game will suffer as a result.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    True but as I mentioned it goes both ways, Cryptic has a responsibility to not exploit people, one I don't feel they're going to live up to as I envision these grab bags becoming a much more common feature, and the game will suffer as a result.

    I was about to say. Yes, people have to be held accountable for their own actions, but that does not exclude Cryptic. What they are doing here is morally and ethically shameful. I don't care if they are a business out to make money, other businesses make money within the boundaries of human ethics.

    Oh, and the OP brought up children gambling due to Cryptic's decision. Now, there is factual data out there showing that up until adulthood, children and teens really aren't good decisions makers due to emotional and mental development, so that puts the spotlight even more so on Cryptic's unethical dealings.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    What you say is true, but if there are eriously people out there enticed by the ads and messages of the screen to pay endless c-points to partake in the lottery then those people have a serious problem to begin with. You just cannot buy something bad for you and then sue the company, it is your responsibility. And lottery is a form of gambling. And gambling's purpose is NOT that you (the customer) have fun or benefit from it, the whole purpose is for the company to make money. This is no secret at all. If you seriously cannot stand down from it you need help and GOT to stop playing videogames since it is a serious sign of addiction.

    On the one hand I approve that Cryptic should be responsible to limit the damage done, but how could they? If they just lock out people who - by monitoring - seem to have a gambling problem they don't help and it is not their part to approach people and convince them to seek a therapist. The best thing they could do is include a service message upon log in announcing that this game contains a lottery event/gambling but that's about it.

    Of course, they could scrap this TRIBBLE entirely...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    VangarVega wrote:
    Of course, they could scrap this TRIBBLE entirely...

    yeah, that would be the ethical thing to do. And the smart thing to do if they want to continue a steady source of revenue for the next few years.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I see the cheese on the lever.....but I can't help myself.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    It may be legal, though I have yet to find out if its been tested in court. If it is legal, it shouldn't be. This is preying on those who are young and haven't developed critical thinking skills yet, those with poor impulse control and those genuinely addicted to gambling. It's especially egregious since the game currently has a Teen rating.

    I think it's Cryptic's responsiblity to consider the harm that comes from this type of game mechanic as well as the revenue it generates. Right now it looks like they're only considering the income. They think that so long as this makes money that it means it's good, or so it seems from here. But they don't consider if anyone spends their rent money and their family suffers, they don't consider kids getting hooked on games of chance, and they don't consider the long term repercussions to the game and their income if people start leaving because of the spam and the content being shoved into games of chance instead of the game itself or even the cstore. PW games have a big dropoff in players at high level once they discover that it costs hundreds of dollars to compete. Now they're bringing that same mentality to STO. So I think that it's not only in the best interest of morality and ethics, but of STOs bottom line as well to limit or change this type of gaming.

    I know the game is free to play. So they need people to spend money within the game. I'm fine with things being sold in the cstore. I buy most of those items myself. It's a very different thing to get people to spend money for a pig-in-a-poke, with the hope that spending more might get them something worth hundreds of dollars on ebay. These grand prizes do have a monetary value, which Cryptic ignores since they don't sell the item for money themselves. These ships sell for 300 million energy credits or more on the exchange. That has real monetary value whether Cryptic admits it or not.

    I think there may be a way to save the game mechanic though. First, we must be able to opt out of the spam. I'd be more forgiving if I could turn it off for myself and my teenager. Next, the odds must be disclosed, like in any lotto game. At least those not addicted or young could make an informed decision that way. This is something I think will be tested in court or held up for investigation in the future. Next, I think that the grand prize cannot be vastly more valuable than the other prizes you can win. I was against the doff packs until I realized that at least you know when you buy one that you'll be able to get 4 commons, 2 greens, and one blue or purple doff. If I knew that the keys would provide a prize that I don't already own and at least one of the prizes that drops has real value, it might mitigate my concerns. Right now there is simply no contest between the value of the grand prize and the other prizes.

    But it is my hope that Cryptic doesn't wait for Congress or a lawsuit to change their behavior. Proactive steps taken by them can nip this widespread dissatisfaction in the bud. They're causing harm to at least some players and to their reputation right now. And I want to keep playing but this is one thing that can lead to me leaving. And I spend a lot more in the cstore in general than most people. But I want to buy something, not gamble on getting something and probably getting nothing I value.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Disclosing the (LOW) drop chances in advance of purchasing a box would be against the principle of the whole action. I've been saying it all along and I repeat it: I'm perfectly fine with that ridiculous box-actions. Although I'd NEVER participate in it, I realize how much revenue that nonsense is creating for PW and hence Cryptic. HOWEVER:

    1) The HAVE to stop those harrasing drop messages spamming all players.
    2) Similar to the lotteries, it has to be tested, whether it is their duty to disclose the chances of winning. However, what constitutes "winning"? Cryptic could easily define any droppable item as a "win", not just the current extremely rare ship...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    VangarVega wrote:
    And lottery is a form of gambling. And gambling's purpose is NOT that you (the customer) have fun or benefit from it, the whole purpose is for the company to make money. This is no secret at all. If you seriously cannot stand down from it you need help and GOT to stop playing videogames since it is a serious sign of addiction.

    On the one hand I approve that Cryptic should be responsible to limit the damage done, but how could they? If they just lock out people who - by monitoring - seem to have a gambling problem they don't help and it is not their part to approach people and convince them to seek a therapist. The best thing they could do is include a service message upon log in announcing that this game contains a lottery event/gambling but that's about it.

    Of course, they could scrap this TRIBBLE entirely...

    Plenty of people were able to play STO without triggering a gambling problem before the grab bags. So I don't think the answer is they have to stop playing video games. They might have to stop playing STO, but that would be because of the grab bags, not the game itself.

    But lotteries have rules that STO does not follow. They insist this isn't a lottery. And it may skirt the law by the skin of its teeth, but from here it sure looks like a lottery. By not disclosing the odds of winning, and by continuing to advertise the game as having a Teen rating, they're taking a chance of having legal action taken or having Congress put their noses into this relatively new type of mechanic in games. Personally I hope this does come up in Congress. But I'd rather Cryptic do something about it themselves.

    If they keep this up, I think the game deserves an M rating with a notice that it involves games of chance.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    @ Shakkar,

    I'm glad there are people more eloquent than I. It'd be nice to save this game as something I could stand to play and be proud of.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Disclosing the (LOW) drop chances in advance of purchasing a box would be against the principle of the whole action.

    as far as I know, State lotteries have to disclose this information and do quite well. Why can't Cryptic?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Shakkar wrote: »
    Plenty of people were able to play STO without triggering a gambling problem before the grab bags. So I don't think the answer is they have to stop playing video games. They might have to stop playing STO, but that would be because of the grab bags, not the game itself.

    But lotteries have rules that STO does not follow. They insist this isn't a lottery. And it may skirt the law by the skin of its teeth, but from here it sure looks like a lottery. By not disclosing the odds of winning, and by continuing to advertise the game as having a Teen rating, they're taking a chance of having legal action taken or having Congress put their noses into this relatively new type of mechanic in games. Personally I hope this does come up in Congress. But I'd rather Cryptic do something about it themselves.

    If they keep this up, I think the game deserves an M rating with a notice that it involves games of chance.

    I agree with that. I've been thinking of looking through the proper channels to stop these problems if Cryptic won't do that themselves.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Is it too much to ask for people to take personal responsibility their own actions? If you went out and spent $200 you could not afford on the Galor, thats your fault not Perfect World's or Cryptic's. Star Trek Online offers a game of chance and it is up to each player to decide on how he or she will responsibly respond to that game. If you spend your rent money on a ship then YOU have a problem and have no one to blame but yourself.

    It seems that we now live in a society we're its become the norm to point the finger and blame someone or something else for our problems instead of dealing with our problems. If you have a problem with impulse control then for the love god get some help for it and quit complaining about it on video game forum boards.

    Thats my two cents worth!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Is it too much to ask for people to take personal responsibility their own actions? If you went out and spent $200 you could not afford on the Galor, thats your fault not Perfect World's or Cryptic's. Star Trek Online offers a game of chance and it is up to each player to decide on how he or she will responsibly respond to that game. If you spend your rent money on a ship then YOU have a problem and have no one to blame but yourself.

    It seems that we now live in a society we're its become the norm to point the finger and blame someone or something else for our problems instead of dealing with our problems. If you have a problem with impulse control then for the love god get some help for it and quit complaining about it on video game forum boards.

    Thats my two cents worth!

    The game is rating Teen. Minors by definition are not held to the standard that you say, only adults are.

    The lack of odds being posted may also violate law.

    EDIT: Cryptic is also responsible for their actions.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Hey, it's simple, if you don't like the system, don't participate, it is as simple as that
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Shakkar wrote: »
    The game is rating Teen. Minors by definition are not held to the standard that you say, only adults are.

    The lack of odds being posted may also violate law.

    EDIT: Cryptic is also responsible for their actions.

    It does not violate any law, you are responsible for your own actions if you choose to over spend
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    ultimately it's up to customers to decide if a company's actions are objectible. if you find cryptic's lock boxes to be wrong or bad or greedy, you need to voice your displeasure with your wallet. thousands of forum posts mean nothing if people are still spending money with cryptic.

    to effect the change that these posts are demanding, requires real world action, be it legal or grassroots. for all the angry posts i've read, i have not seen anyone set up an online petition or organize a serious boycott. if players were serious about their outrage, they would stop spending money on c-points, they would stop using the dilith exchange, they would cancel their subs, they would stop playing. i doubt sto players are serious enough to take these steps in protest of the business practice they're railing against.

    as an example of a successful boycott of a company, i direct your attention to BoA and their attempt to charge customers a monthly fee for debit cards. customers boycotted, a young lady started an online petition and BoA took notice. revenue statements speak louder than forum posts.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    FredCasden wrote:
    Hey, it's simple, if you don't like the system, don't participate, it is as simple as that

    For the record, I have over 6000 cryptic points and have bought no keys. But I'm still forced to participate when I'm spammed and have to look at the broadcast messages. This adversely effects my enjoyment of the game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Kraultar wrote:
    ultimately it's up to customers to decide if a company's actions are objectible. if you find cryptic's lock boxes to be wrong or bad or greedy, you need to voice your displeasure with your wallet. thousands of forum posts mean nothing if people are still spending money with cryptic.

    to effect the change that these posts are demanding, requires real world action, be it legal or grassroots. for all the angry posts i've read, i have not seen anyone set up an online petition or organize a serious boycott. if players were serious about their outrage, they would stop spending money on c-points, they would stop using the dilith exchange, they would cancel their subs, they would stop playing. i doubt sto players are serious enough to take these steps in protest of the business practice they're railing against.

    as an example of a successful boycott of a company, i direct your attention to BoA and their attempt to charge customers a monthly fee for debit cards. customers boycotted, a young lady started an online petition and BoA took notice. revenue statements speak louder than forum posts.

    I have actually proposed real world action. If the spam isn't stopped by next week I will begin those actions. But to say "vote with your wallet, quit" is to say "give up, you can't effect change that lets you keep playing". I have voted with my wallet already by buying a lifetime subscription and paying hundreds of dollars in the cstore since. That doesn't mean I shouldn't try to change something I don't like and I think may in fact be illegal.

    I plan to contact my congressman to see if a congressional investigation into this issue can happen. I plan to write to the ESRB to get the game's rating changed from Teen to Mature. I plan to contact grassroots organizations such as the Family Research Council to bring added attention to this issue. I have posted this already but it's no surprise if you haven't seen it; those posts are buried among a thousand others. There may be additional actions I can take. But first I want Cryptic to change what they're doing, with a minimum to stop spamming me to play the game of chance.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Shakkar wrote: »
    But to say "vote with your wallet, quit" is to say "give up, you can't effect change that lets you keep playing".

    i don't see "stop playing" as giving up on effecting change. like i said, money is what matters to companies. cut off the money and the message is delivered. if a large number of players stopped logging into the game everyday, cryptic would take notice. i don't see that happening, star trek fans are, well, fanatical.

    i do wish you luck in your real world actions.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    FredCasden wrote:
    It does not violate any law, you are responsible for your own actions if you choose to over spend

    Kid's are not allowed to gamble in Casinos .
    Want to take a guess as to why that is ?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Aelfwin wrote: »
    Kid's are not allowed to gamble in Casinos .
    Want to take a guess as to why that is ?

    yeah, there's actual scientific data showing that kids are not at the same level of decision making as adults. So, that whole personal accountability thing doesn't necessarily fly.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Since when has ethics been a part of business? Surely you had to expect this when PWE took over.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Since when has ethics been a part of business? Surely you had to expect this when PWE took over.

    Ethics can be a part of good business though. You need people to like you in order for them to buy your products./
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    FredCasden wrote:
    Hey, it's simple, if you don't like the system, don't participate, it is as simple as that

    Yes yes, we've been over that, that does not absolve Cryptic of responsibility though, or the long term consequences should they choose to ignore that.
    Since when has ethics been a part of business? Surely you had to expect this when PWE took over.

    It can be, and succesfully. There is a national chain in the UK called Lush that I've been trying to get a job with for a couple of years because of their environmental, ethical and staff treatment policies (apparantly they're looking to ensure that the lowest paid employees receive a "living wage" as a minimum, because the company feel that the legal minimum wage is too low, according to a friend that works for them) and their focus on selling quality products, albeit at slightly higher prices. They experianced a boom not long after they were established which they haven't matched since but continue to steadily grow and be succesful.

    Maybe a redaction of the policies that inspire my admiration in that company could net more profits, but theres more to life and work than lining your pockets.
Sign In or Register to comment.