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Feds compared to KDF - Part 2 - Starblazers Ship Compare Database

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
In a recent topic where I asked if KDF had an unfair advantage over FED and was promptly inundated by KDF fanbois talking tough. I came up with the following that will leave NO QUESTION about the capabilities of both Fed vs KDF and visa-versa.

This database chart can be sorted to compare Fed and KDF ship by Base Hull Points, Base Shield Strength and Base Turn Rate.

*** ALL SHIPS ARE NOT ADDED YET! ***
But its a good start...

Starblazers Ship Comparison Database -> http://sto.oldmmogamers.net/shipcompare.shtml

enjoy...
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I'm hopeless with things like this. Could you give a quick summary of your conclusions please.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    you chart does not take into accout player skill or the fact that some kdf ships are broken. Also sometime i go to pvp areas with fed only using space bar to win and getting mad thay cant just press it to win.sometimes i get real pvpers and its a even fight to the death no matter what ship any of us is in.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    His summary is that he believes that the KDF has a huge advanatge over the feds but can't seem to prove it.

    Its not in the hull points difference as its not consistant across all types of KDF ships. Some KDF vessels have more hull than some fed counter parts at the same rank. Some do not and fall short.

    Its not in the shield stats for KDF vessels as the same truth applies, some are are higher and some are not depending on class and rank.

    Its not in the BOff assingment of KDF vessels as the majority of KDF stays true to thier Tactical mentality and Engineering skill while being weak in a science apsect.

    Its not in the turn rate differences as only the Battle cruisers for the KDF have a higher turn rate than thier fed counter parts. Raptors are slightly slower turning than fed Escorts and the Federation Science vessels fall only a few points below the KDF support vessel in most cases.

    Even the Devs have come out in the past and stated without reservation that the KDF is not over-powered in comparision to the federation. That both have strengths and weaknesses that lie in different areas.

    SOme people just refuse to believe and will continue to make claims that the KDF is OP, even when all it sounds like it they got spanked and they don;t even play PvP;
    You should practice what you preach as I don't PVP, I am totally PVE..

    Unsubscribing this thread because people don't care to have a reasonable discussion.

    Cheers

    So it leads one to think that they believe the KDF is OP becuase the KDF has an easier time on average in the PvE enviroment of the game. Which is true. The KDF is easy to play in PvE due to thier heavy lean towards tactical BOff set-ups in an enviroment where killing NPCs fast is the easiest way to advance through a mission and is a parallel to why any Escort class vessel can easily blow through PvE missions
    and give the same feeling of OP.

    Nice chart though it proofs absolutely nothing. SO where's the proof?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Isnt it
    B'rel Bird of Prey instead of B'Rek?
    Negh'Var not Nefg'Var

    also

    D'Kyr

    Sort by hull and shields for Interesting results :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Do you have this in a comma delimited or excel format? I want to play around with a few graphs so we aren't looking at a wall of numbers.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    danicema wrote:
    you chart does not take into accout player skill or the fact that some kdf ships are broken. Also sometime i go to pvp areas with fed only using space bar to win and getting mad thay cant just press it to win.sometimes i get real pvpers and its a even fight to the death no matter what ship any of us is in.

    If you care to even read you would see that the chart is only base skills with no personal skills added.

    Roach, you don't even deserve a reply, you do how get to have fun on my ignore list....

    And No I am not stating KDF are better or worse than FED.. I made the chart SO YOU CAN DECIDE FOR YOURSELF. Tthats my 'summary'. The chart has helped ME determine that. I put it out to the community in hopes it would help someone else with the same. And I don't PVP so that doesnt even come into it.

    I apologize for trying to help the community...
    Nuff Said...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    The crew value itself has no actual impact on the ship's performance and is misleading.
    There are Klingon ships that have crew values twice that of their Federation counterparts but the percentage repair value shown when you hover the cursor ove the crew ingame is a determining factor.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    In the past, KDF excelled in PvP because in the early days, one could only level by doing PvP and therefore have more experience and Pre-mades in PvP than the Feds.

    Compound that now with P2W consoles like Vent Theta and Aceton Assimiltors as well as the new Syphon and Tachyon drones and the advantage becomes more apparent.

    I don't like AMS anymore than the next person but in overall PvP balance, it doesn't even touch the afformentioned consoles.

    Now that any ship can use any T4 and below console, it seems Fed Cruiser days are numbered.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    If you care to even read you would see that the chart is only base skills with no personal skills added.

    Roach, you don't even deserve a reply, you do how get to have fun on my ignore list....

    And No I am not stating KDF are better or worse than FED.. I made the chart SO YOU CAN DECIDE FOR YOURSELF. Tthats my 'summary'. The chart has helped ME determine that. I put it out to the community in hopes it would help someone else with the same. And I don't PVP so that doesnt even come into it.

    I apologize for trying to help the community...
    Nuff Said...

    You realize that there are more powers that affect shields than engineering? And that both are unequally affected by other stats?

    There are a myriad of factors to take into account.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Wait, this is about PvE?

    The KDF doesn't even exist in PvE for the first 20 levels.

    That's a pretty big advantage on the fed side. They get a full 50 level PvE story and experience.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I have the say the chart is nice and simple and easy to read. Tho I can't say you can base it all numbers alone. There are many many things that come into play past the base number lay out. One major thing I feel is over looked is how the persons build is, this is feel is a major thing.

    Then you have to take into count the type of ship and how it should be played as well. A Sci ship should be doing a lot of debuffing and and giving aid to the rest of the fleet when they can, along with some AoE attacks. The KDF have no real sci ship, that I know of anyway i aint played KFD in a long time.

    There many other factor's as well but over all I do like this chart as its good for a fast over view of the base ship stats. So thank you for the chart!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Roach, you don't even deserve a reply, you do how get to have fun on my ignore list....

    Fine by me. Close your eyes and plug your ears when something doesn't mesh with your point of view or belief system.
    Many have stated the KDF is not OP, Many have given ample evidence of how and why, you refuse to believe it and still look for the magical proof that will vindicate you.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    superchum wrote: »
    Wait, this is about PvE?

    The KDF doesn't even exist in PvE for the first 20 levels.

    That's a pretty big advantage on the fed side. They get a full 50 level PvE story and experience.

    Shocking, isn't it? We KDF are now OP in the PvE instead of just the PvP. Oh woe is me. Many have stated evidence to the proof against but some just will not see.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    However, most of them don't really matter to the way the game is played. The Feds do have some ships that are as powerful or more so than the KDF counterparts. But the KDF has significant advantages in general. First off: cloak. A cloaked ship has the advantage of initiative. That is huge. You determine the time and place of the battle, and get the first shot. In a human hand to hand fight, one of the biggest determinants of winning is who gets in the first blow. I'm not talking about boxing; both fighters know the fight is on and they're going to be hit. I'm talking about street fighting.

    Battlecruisers are far and away better on the KDF side. I've flown every ship in this class for both factions (except the new Galor) and the KDF gets cannons, cloak, and better turn rate. So except for initiative, more dps, and better turn rate, it's only offset by some hull and shield advantages. I think the KDF trumps the Feds in this area.

    KDF gets carriers. This is a force multiplier. They do lose cloak though. Still fighters had to be nerfed because they were able to kill ships before their opponents could even get in range. The Fed counters to it are still inferior in my opinion.

    I'm still mainly a Fed player. The Feds are the good guys in Star Trek, they're the focus of the shows and films, and they have the lions share of the content. Their ships are good enough, and I think some of their ships like the MVAM are better than the KDF counterparts.

    So I don't think it's far and away a KDF advantage. But I think that DPS in general matters more in the game than defensive skills, and turn rate matters more than people give credit for And in those critical areas, along with initiative, the KDF is on top.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Shakkar wrote: »
    However, most of them don't really matter to the way the game is played. The Feds do have some ships that are as powerful or more so than the KDF counterparts. But the KDF has significant advantages in general. First off: cloak. A cloaked ship has the advantage of initiative. That is huge. You determine the time and place of the battle, and get the first shot. In a human hand to hand fight, one of the biggest determinants of winning is who gets in the first blow. I'm not talking about boxing; both fighters know the fight is on and they're going to be hit. I'm talking about street fighting.

    Battlecruisers are far and away better on the KDF side. I've flown every ship in this class for both factions (except the new Galor) and the KDF gets cannons, cloak, and better turn rate. So except for initiative, more dps, and better turn rate, it's only offset by some hull and shield advantages. I think the KDF trumps the Feds in this area.

    KDF gets carriers. This is a force multiplier. They do lose cloak though. Still fighters had to be nerfed because they were able to kill ships before their opponents could even get in range. The Fed counters to it are still inferior in my opinion.

    I'm still mainly a Fed player. The Feds are the good guys in Star Trek, they're the focus of the shows and films, and they have the lions share of the content. Their ships are good enough, and I think some of their ships like the MVAM are better than the KDF counterparts.

    So I don't think it's far and away a KDF advantage. But I think that DPS in general matters more in the game than defensive skills, and turn rate matters more than people give credit for And in those critical areas, along with initiative, the KDF is on top.

    Your post reads like it is addressing the topic in terms of PvP.

    But after reading the OP's responses it seems this is more about PvE. So, like what advantage is a cloak in PvE? Especially the way the current cloak is implemented (as in, it's broken)?

    Also, with the new console changes both Fed endgame cruisers and escorts can equip cloaks now. Leaving only science ships out of the party (though they have access to Rank III Mask Energy Signature which should work similar to cloak in PvE).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Shakkar wrote: »
    However, most of them don't really matter to the way the game is played. The Feds do have some ships that are as powerful or more so than the KDF counterparts. But the KDF has significant advantages in general. First off: cloak. A cloaked ship has the advantage of initiative. That is huge. You determine the time and place of the battle, and get the first shot. In a human hand to hand fight, one of the biggest determinants of winning is who gets in the first blow. I'm not talking about boxing; both fighters know the fight is on and they're going to be hit. I'm talking about street fighting.

    Battlecruisers are far and away better on the KDF side. I've flown every ship in this class for both factions (except the new Galor) and the KDF gets cannons, cloak, and better turn rate. So except for initiative, more dps, and better turn rate, it's only offset by some hull and shield advantages. I think the KDF trumps the Feds in this area.

    KDF gets carriers. This is a force multiplier. They do lose cloak though. Still fighters had to be nerfed because they were able to kill ships before their opponents could even get in range. The Fed counters to it are still inferior in my opinion.

    I'm still mainly a Fed player. The Feds are the good guys in Star Trek, they're the focus of the shows and films, and they have the lions share of the content. Their ships are good enough, and I think some of their ships like the MVAM are better than the KDF counterparts.

    So I don't think it's far and away a KDF advantage. But I think that DPS in general matters more in the game than defensive skills, and turn rate matters more than people give credit for And in those critical areas, along with initiative, the KDF is on top.
    I 100% agree.

    In my 2 year of STO i have been flying a Cruiser (FED) so maybe my statements don't apply to other ship classes very well.

    I think Federation ships, albeit if they are weaker or stronger are much too passive in general.
    A higher turn rate not only benefits ships using cannons, they can use their tropedoes much more effective, which federation cruisers cannot.

    I think Initiative and the ability to end fight a fight if things go wrong are a much to big advantage in PvP.
    I think it would have been much better if the Klingons would have gotten something like a (weaker but permanent) version of "go down fighting".

    Personally i think that a bit more hull never makes up all the other advantages the klingons have.


    Live long and prosper.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    The fact is, both faction's ships are able to get through most pve content. Elite STFs is probably an exception there though. In those and in pvp, I think the KDF has an advantage. Not a huge one, but I still believe that advantage exists for the reasons I gave.

    I have 8 KDF Lt. Generals and a lot of Fed VAs. I've flown every top tier ship except the Galor. If I could fly KDF ships with my Feds I would do so in some cases.

    EDIT: to address the cloak issue: Tier 5 consoles are not able to be moved to other ships even with the change so only the Gal-X and the Defiant get the cloak. That hasn't changed.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Why not just come out and say what you really mean.

    I want the BOP universal BO layout on my defiant.

    I want the Carrier Fedside.

    Talk about your "wolf-dressed-up-in-sheeps" argument...

    Trust me when I say this - your beloved Federation will have all that and more soon, and not too long from now you will be whining about all the Galors, the d'Deridex, the Jem'Hadar attack ships, hell why not even throw in Borg Cubes for the heck of it, hanging around Sol.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Both sides have equal chance (ie not good) of getting one of those "alien" ships. So it doesn't have much effect on balance. I would rather have new Fed and KDF ships than any of those though.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Shakkar wrote: »
    Both sides have equal chance (ie not good) of getting one of those "alien" ships. So it doesn't have much effect on balance. I would rather have new Fed and KDF ships than any of those though.

    ... I agree

    I would much rather have the factions complete.

    I was rather dismayed when I read news that they may be adding "mini-factions" through the c-store, that you would unlock but continue with them under the Federation or the KDF.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012

    Why not just come out and say what you really mean.

    I want the BOP universal BO layout on my defiant.

    I want the Carrier Fedside.

    Talk about your "wolf-dressed-up-in-sheeps" argument...

    Trust me when I say this - your beloved Federation will have all that and more soon, and not too long from now you will be whining about all the Galors, the d'Deridex, the Jem'Hadar attack ships, hell why not even throw in Borg Cubes for the heck of it, hanging around Sol.
    No, no no no, thats not the point.
    I don't care what other species ships are playable on federation side. I want Starfleets ships to be more equal, not some ugly Galor or Jem Haddar bug ships.

    Since most of STO players are doing PvE stuff anyways i think it would be best if all tier 5 and above ships would get an universal Lt. Cmdr and at least one universal console slot.
    (Especially since the devs made clear that they don't care about balance in PvP anyways. Or why should they make tier 4 and lower special consoles universal?)

    Let's face it, PvP is a dying game mode in STO, so why care for some obscure balance anyways?
    The devs should give every player the chance to fly the ship he likes the way he wants IMHO.
    Every ships would me much more flexible when it comes to BO layouts and consoles but still maintaining its characteristic.
    (Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations, everyone? :) )


    Live long and prosper.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Yreodred wrote:




    Let's face it, PvP is a dying game mode in STO, so why care for some obscure balance anyways?
    .

    As a PVPer who q's up every single day, I have to wonder where you get this idea?
    There are more people in the Q's than ever, & numerous instances of lvl 50 kerrat at all hours of the day.
    If anything, PVP is doing better than ever before.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Yreodred wrote:
    Since most of STO players are doing PvE stuff anyways

    Where the cloak is all but useless.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    ... I agree

    I would much rather have the factions complete.

    I was rather dismayed when I read news that they may be adding "mini-factions" through the c-store, that you would unlock but continue with them under the Federation or the KDF.
    Qa'pla! The idea of mini factions does not strike fear in me though as some of teh races in the game do not have the prescence of the big three, imo, as the Federation, the Klingons and the Romulans and would be better served if made into a mini-faction.
    You could easily increase the gameplay of the Federation by having a mini-faction of some of the memeber races added to the mix.
    Like Vulcans defense force vessels, Andorian Defense force vessels and etc to liven up the ship choices.
    The KDF is prettly well filled up with its memebr races and vessels now and only needs a few Orion and Gorn escorts to even the field in my opinion.
    The Romulans are wide open and could include the Romulans, The remans and the Hirogen as its main members, along with the vessels of each.
    Cardasians could be a mini-faction bad guy faction with the return of the Jem'hadar.
    As a PVPer who q's up every single day, I have to wonder where you get this idea?
    There are more people in the Q's than ever, & numerous instances of lvl 50 kerrat at all hours of the day.
    If anything, PVP is doing better than ever before.

    I've counted Ker'rat ques as high as 47+ in the past few days so somebody is out there doing a littel light PvP. SO I agree, while not terribly fleshed or balanced, many players still seem to enjoy it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I was talking about Arena and Capture and Hold PvP stuff, i should have made this more clear, sorry.
    Althrough many players (including me) are "enjoying" this map (Ker'rat), the devs haven't updated this map much since i have started playing STO 2 years ago.
    I think open war maps like Kerrat are the way to go.
    People aren't that organized there like in a Arena or C&H map.
    You can go in, stay a while and go if you don't like it, which is much more free than going to a Arena map with a given team.
    So everyone is doing more or less his own stuff, althrough there are some teams there too.

    To survive there one cannot always rely on a team that can heal you. In my opinion ship balancing needs to be different than originally planned, since teamplay is much more casual on such a map.

    My point was that ships should be more flexible and bit more equalized.
    Not much an escort should stay an escort, a cruiser a cruiser and a science vessel a science vessel, but i think that ships should be much more self sufficient.
    (Which would also be more like in the shows)

    In my opinion ships as they are now are too extreme, like some can do too much damage, and others can just survive long but can't do not much else. I would like to see some ships (Federation AND KDF) that are more in between.
    Giving all Tier 5 and above ships a Lt. Cmdr universal and a universal console would make ships much more flexible and much more fun to fly IMHO.


    I like the idea of mini factions in STO, it would open a whole new dimension of content, like Ferengi marauders and a Starbase, a independent small Borg collective, some Alien of the week planets and some ships, or the devs could make up a minor faction on their own, where they can put in stuff they seem to like so much (like mass effect like Armors, Escort ships and so on ;) ).
    The C-Store could make tons of money with a good mini faction (if executed well).
    Additionally the devs could have much more freedom in designing alien stuff like ships and species.
    I think it would be a win- win situation.


    Live long and prosper.
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