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Cruisers and endgame PVE

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
There seem to be a lot of folks who don't view cruisers as a valid choice for many things: PVP, Endgame content, etc. A lot of people have angrily compared them to space whales or whatever in other threads, and I'm not sure where the disconnect is.

As an engineer, I've happily chugged along in a cruiser since I started (up to level 43 so far). I've participated in massive battles in which enemies made the mistake of targeting me just to find out I can't be exploded, and my damage output is on par with most klingon opponents I've observed. Turn rate isn't much of a problem if you know when you need to pivot to rotate shields (using abilities) and understand that gearing up a cruiser for damage is a lot different than gearing up a ship that faces forward at all times to do battle. Isn't this really simply a play-style choice?

Despite the fact that The Odyssey has fallen short on a lot of levels, I was looking forward to being able to fly this thing around endgame only to find out that it for some reason "doesn't work." I get that a ton of ships instantly explode whenever the borg look at them funny in higher difficulty modes - and its my understanding that the cruiser ability to "tank things" does not make up for this fact, but does this really invalidate cruisers in endgame content?
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I just finished a cure stf, and basically soloed it in my assualt cruiser. I out dpsed all escorts easily, and im only using mark x weapons.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    My Odyssey does exceptional in the STFs I've flown her in. Actually, she hasn't exploded once, and I've tank-soloed groups of spheres, getting them away from the escorts taking out the objectives. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    i am quite able to tank a cube in an elite STF on my own but i have problems with many ships like loads of spheres. i still dont go down that much i just dont take them down as fast as i want to
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    The Truth: In regular STFs, cruisers suck. Are they tougher than escorts? Yes, they are - but it doesn't matter, because a properly piloted escort will (a) not blow up, (b) do at least twice the damage of a cruiser, and (c) be faster and more maneuverable.

    In elite STFs, cruisers are maybe a little better, but not much. Escorts and cruisers both die to 1-shot torpedoes, and non-torpedo damage is still tankable most of the time in an escort. And even if you blow up, the respawn timer is only 15 seconds. Big whoop.

    As far as STFs go, it is really all about damage. Survivability barely matters. You do the math.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Don't worry about 'folks' say, if you are playing in a properly geared level appropriate ship of your choice you are doing the right thing. Know the encounters and pay attention.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Emanonsah wrote:
    I just finished a cure stf, and basically soloed it in my assualt cruiser. I out dpsed all escorts easily, and im only using mark x weapons.

    I'm doing my best not to laugh out loud.
    Seriously, you must have met up with people trying to fly T2 Escorts or something.

    Vexiom wrote:
    The Truth: In regular STFs, cruisers suck. Are they tougher than escorts? Yes, they are - but it doesn't matter, because a properly piloted escort will (a) not blow up, (b) do at least twice the damage of a cruiser, and (c) be faster and more maneuverable.

    As for this and other endgame stuff, Cruisers seem to do fine as far as I can tell by observing.
    I haven't got the gear I want to try and take my tac+Odyssey into its first major battles.
    I *prefer* an Escort, simply because my play style involves moving around alot at high speed and high turn rate, doesn't necessarily mean an escort is *better* in total.

    I will say, as an ENG in an Escort I have out survived most of my Tac/Sci Escort peers in many occasions without sacrificing too much damage.

    In the end, its not about DPS.
    Its about how many bad guys you can kill before you go boom, and how efficiently you can do it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    My main is an ENG. Lvl 50. I guess my Odyssey is satisfactory. I really do like the ship and it's potential. My biggest problem is more with my build and how I allocated my sp. I tend to blow up more than my fair share.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Cruisers are perfectly viable in PvP. You just have to make sure you're not trying to be a Kirk and zerg in, expecting to take on the entire enemy team, or DPS Hero and out damage Escorts.

    But for PvE... anything a Cruiser or Sci can do, an Escort can do better.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    mvs5191 wrote: »
    But for PvE... anything a Cruiser or Sci can do, an Escort can do better.
    However, anything an escort can do, a cruiser or sci can do well enough to carry their weight in PvE.

    Knowing what you're doing is far and away the most important thing in a normal STF, and an organized team adhering to the most effective strategy doubly so in elite. You might lag a few seconds behind in killing your generator compared to the escorts, for example, but it's not enough to cripple your team by any means. Even on elite, this stuff isn't actually hard.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Resz wrote:
    However, anything an escort can do, a cruiser or sci can do well enough to carry their weight in PvE.

    Knowing what you're doing is far and away the most important thing in a normal STF, and an organized team adhering to the most effective strategy doubly so in elite. You might lag a few seconds behind in killing your generator compared to the escorts, for example, but it's not enough to cripple your team by any means.

    Of course, pilot skill can even take the worst ship and make it run like a dream. A few members of the OPvP (Organized PvP) channel ran STFs in fighters and T1 ships.

    However, PvE is all about AoE damage. Nothing can match the level of AoE damage Escorts can bring. Sure, a Sci or Cruiser can do damage, but what are you gaining by bringing one instead of an Escort?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I see the differences between Escorts and Cruisers this way.

    It is the skill of the Captain/Boffs/Doffs and abilites that will make any ship stand out.

    Without them, the ship(s) will be useless.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    mvs5191 wrote: »
    Of course, pilot skill can even take the worst ship and make it run like a dream. A few members of the OPvP (Organized PvP) channel ran STFs in fighters and T1 ships.

    However, PvE is all about AoE damage. Nothing can match the level of AoE damage Escorts can bring. Sure, a Sci or Cruiser can do damage, but what are you gaining by bringing one instead of an Escort?
    Oh, I agree. You're absolutely going to have an easier time in PvE if you're able to just CSV packs in an escort/raptor and call it a day. But you won't learn anything from it, not even about how to get the most out of your escort. And if you never stray from the straight and narrow PvE path and never dare venture into the dark forests of PvP adventure, that'll work out fine for you, so long as Cryptic never develops any PvE challenges that can't be easily solved by everyone just mindlessly shooting at it until it dies.

    I'd rather be able to get more damage out of my cruiser in an STF than at least half (if I'm being generous) of the escorts I team with ever manage by endeavoring to improve myself and my ship than grow fat and lazy on the path of least resistance.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Emanonsah wrote:
    I just finished a cure stf, and basically soloed it in my assualt cruiser. I out dpsed all escorts easily, and im only using mark x weapons.

    And I've seen an Odyssey die to a single sphere and spend 2 minutes to barely scratch a transformer. Anecdotes are extremely useful.

    Still, cruisers built for damage are good for any elite STF. It's the cruisers with rainbow beams, not enough power to utilize the weapons fully and with awesome skills like Boading Party 3 that can make the optionals impossible. Of course the same applies to escorts and science ships too but they are not as common.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Vexiom wrote:
    The Truth: In regular STFs, cruisers suck. Are they tougher than escorts? Yes, they are - but it doesn't matter, because a properly piloted escort will (a) not blow up, (b) do at least twice the damage of a cruiser, and (c) be faster and more maneuverable.

    In elite STFs, cruisers are maybe a little better, but not much. Escorts and cruisers both die to 1-shot torpedoes, and non-torpedo damage is still tankable most of the time in an escort. And even if you blow up, the respawn timer is only 15 seconds. Big whoop.

    As far as STFs go, it is really all about damage. Survivability barely matters. You do the math.

    Speak for yourself, I get hit with those, wipes out an entire shield facing and 65% of my hull but I cna recover from that.

    Spec into threat control and when the escorts go from rarel exploding to not at all, they'll be grateful your there and the team will perform better, since your DPS is 0 when you blow up.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Is damage most valuable in STFs? Yes. Do Escorts do more damage than cruisers in STFs? Yes, mostly. Does pilot skill matter more than the ship? Yes. Do builds matter? Also yes.

    You can do well at all levels in a cruiser. Will you have an easier time in an escort? Probably, but you may not have a funner time in an escort, and really, if you're going to do STFs 200 times, you might aswell enjoy them, or try to do so.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Im no talking about STF's
    But elite Gamma Encounters with my Advanced Escort, VA

    I can solo the Borg Cudes in there with kills being under 30 seconds.
    with repeated Crits from my Trico with HY III (that borg shootdwon only maybe 1 in 5 torps)
    im doing upto 150,000+dmg on a good crit & they die

    Sphere are little more than a joke. my record has been 1 cycle of weapons i dropped Elite Sphere

    Loadout
    fore : 3 X DHC's Antiproton 1 X Trico Torp All MK X Purples,
    aft : 1 x disruptor turret 1 X Tetryon (for the procs & forward dps) 1 X Quantum MK X Blue

    Im sure it cant be much harder with a Cruiser or Sci.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    mvs5191 wrote: »
    Cruisers are perfectly viable in PvP. You just have to make sure you're not trying to be a Kirk and zerg in, expecting to take on the entire enemy team, or DPS Hero and out damage Escorts.

    But for PvE... anything a Cruiser or Sci can do, an Escort can do better.

    i dunno, rounding up them mirror fed ships with grav wells doesnt seem something an escort could do better.... although a mvam escort with well 1 and scatter 3... -ponders- i got it! scatter 3, torp spread 3 and beta 1! winner!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    matteo716 wrote: »
    i dunno, rounding up them mirror fed ships with grav wells doesnt seem something an escort could do better.... although a mvam escort with well 1 and scatter 3... -ponders- i got it! scatter 3, torp spread 3 and beta 1! winner!

    No no, for big PvE group destruction, it's all about GW 1 + APB 3 + CSV 2 on an MVAE.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Emanonsah wrote:
    I just finished a cure stf, and basically soloed it in my assualt cruiser. I out dpsed all escorts easily, and im only using mark x weapons.

    Must have been some real sad Escorts... My MVAE can out DPS just about any comer in its sleep.

    To the OP: Cruisers are fine in PvP if you are using them as healing boats. They cannot do much good with their Tank Vs. a smart player because in PvP they will simply ignore you and go for important ships.

    In PvE Cruisers are a bit less required... They cannot deal the same damage as an Escort and in STF's you NEED damage more than anything. If the Cruiser cannot A) Keep the DPS ships alive or B) Draw and HOLD Aggro from the enemies while staying alive then it is NOT helping in an STF. That is pretty much the be all and end all of that discussion.

    Give you a great example... You know those enemies in KA or Cure that you have to kill to prevent them from killing the Kang or going through the portal? My MVAE can wipe the floor with them in mere seconds. No Cruiser can do that. Most Cruisers struggle to even get over to them in time let alone kill them. Once I've mopped them up I can zoom back in to help kill the main objective allowing me to do more than one role at once. So you tell me: Is a Cruiser all that viable when compared to an Escort?

    The Odyssey and Bortas as they stand right now are just unfortunate... They have huge hulls but considering Tanking ability is reflected in how much I can heal and resist NOT in how much HP I have that does not help much. They cannot turn to save their lives (Literally) and while their DPS against a stationary target is Moderate for the Odyssey and possibly Good for the Bortas their inability to be flexible and bring that DPS where it needs to be at a moment's notice is a big hindrance.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Give you a great example... You know those enemies in KA or Cure that you have to kill to prevent them from killing the Kang or going through the portal? My MVAE can wipe the floor with them in mere seconds. No Cruiser can do that.
    Are we talking normal or elite? Because on normal my Marauder can do that without breaking a sweat.

    On elite... more seconds are required. But they still go down pretty quick.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Another option to consider for endgame is a cannon build on an Excelsior or Vor'Cha. Works really well for just about any class for PVE.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    in Elite STFs:

    Cruiser's can't heal (ships that explode instantly can't be healed !!! )

    Cruiser's can't do enough DPS (because of the stupid BOff layout, 2 low level TAC BOff slots is NOTHING, let's ignore the oddysey for a second and think Sovereign and Galaxy Classes), if you have 3-4 Cruisers in an STF you will loose the DPS race against the Optional Timer every single time, oh sure you can *complete* the mission but you just aren't fast enough for the optional.

    Cruiser's can't Tank over duration because they die *almost* as easy against the one shots, so Cryptic you can keep your Threat Generation, i still have better chances to heal the Escorts (that not get hit by the one shots but by normal damage) than to heal myself for a minute after ONE of those one shots.




    And personally i never liked SCI ships either, or high level SCI space abilities for that matter.
    My SCI Char is sitting in an MVAM Prometheus, doing good damage, and producing nice PvE pet spam with MVAM + Holo Ships, also i can use Tractor Beam repulsors to push back any Probe Spame.
    And btw. i am using 3 Dual Beam Banks in front and 2 Beam Arrays in the back + BFAW + BO3.

    If the one shot cubes shoot down my NPC pet spam, the players are still around to shoot the Cube too.



    KDF Carriers aren't half bad either, didn't fly one yet myself, but it makes sense to stay out of range of the Elite TAC Cube and only send in your NPC spam, out of range you can easily throw all your heals at the Escort players without fearing to get hit yourself (as long as they stay in range at least).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Resz wrote:
    Are we talking normal or elite? Because on normal my Marauder can do that without breaking a sweat.

    On elite... more seconds are required. But they still go down pretty quick.

    I am talking about Elite really though I have seen Cruisers struggle very hard with the probes and spheres on Normal KA as well.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    A well built cruiser with the correct BO choice can do fine on elite STFs. The issue is that most pug cruisers you see in elite STFs aren't. That is why most people seem to want escorts.

    A badly played Cruiser in an elite STF is detrimental. A badly played Escort...is at least more damage than the badly played Cruiser.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Seems to work great for me :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    CptBANG wrote: »
    in short:

    Cruiser's can't heal (ships that explode instantly can't be healed!!!)

    Cruiser's can't Tank over duration because they die *almost* as easy against the one shots, so Cryptic you can keep your Threat Generation, i still have better chances to heal the Escorts (that not get hit by the one shots) than to heal myself for a minute after ONE of those one shots.


    and personally i never liked SCI ships either, or high level SCI space abilities for that matter.
    My SCI Char is sitting in an MVAM Prometheus, doing good damage, and producing nice PvE pet spam with MVAM + Holo Ships.
    If the one shot cubes shoot down NPC spam, the players are still around to shoot the Cube.


    Carriers aren't half bad either, didn't fly one yet myself, but it makes sense to stay out of range of the Cube and send in your NPC spam, out of range you can easily throw some heals at the Escort players without fearing to get hit yourself.


    If the ship is not a paper airplane then a Cruiser CAN save it from the one shot torps. You must do two things though: A) Ensure their shields are up and the facing towards the Cube is good and B) Get some Hull Resistance via ASIF and HE going on before it hits. This would be made muuuch easier if we could you know... SEE THEM...


    Sciships are pretty powerful and a great boon. Nothing makes a Tact Cube more pathetic faster than a few Tyken's III's ravaging its power to nothing. It makes it inert except the invisotorps. Gravity Well III is real handy during the rest of the fight as well.


    Carriers are AWESOME at STF's. Their pets do a lot to keep enemies occupied and kill things. They bring Science Ship type abilities with them AND they can Tank. I find the best way to tank a Cube is either to sit on its roof with my Carrier and have a mate keep extra heals on me or swoop in and drop some abilities on it, like Tykens and Sensor Scan etc.., Brace for Impact and slip back out. This way I survive the Invso Death Torp and let my pets and abilities annoy the heck out of it so it keeps focused on ME not my friends. Just ride that 10K mark.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I run all the STF's in the exploration Refit, got a dual beam and 2 beams and 1 quantum front, and 3 beams and a quantum in back, usin aegis set. Set it up to tank, and I can hold aggro. I do get one shotted periodically on Elite by that massive torp hit. But otherwise I keep the escorts up by keeping and holding aggro. when i gotta compete with an escort that has the THREAT GEN i have no problem letting them die, they earned it for speccing into it. Pay em no attention. I've gotten optionals very easily in most cases and when i need the handling of an escort, just drop the saucer and give it hell bud. Works out pretty well for me. WIth cruisers its about bringing utility to a group with your weps and your boff skills. All my energy weps at tetryon i burn down shields pretty quick, opening the door for escorts to burn down the hulls however they want. For tac skills using FAW and Spread, works out well in PVE. In PVP, cruisers are about useless though, cant turn or keep up with your prey. specced into weps and shields and hull across the board and I do pretty well. My Eng Tank Cruiser is actually my favorite toon. I got an Escort with a Tac also VA and hes kinda fun... but i can take on about anything in that Venture class and win 99 times out of 100 in pve. PvP, against other cruisers i do pretty well... tacs gimme fits but i dont pvp much anymore either so... do with that what you will.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I run all the STF's in the exploration Refit, got a dual beam and 2 beams and 1 quantum front, and 3 beams and a quantum in back, usin aegis set. Set it up to tank, and I can hold aggro. I do get one shotted periodically on Elite by that massive torp hit. But otherwise I keep the escorts up by keeping and holding aggro. when i gotta compete with an escort that has the THREAT GEN i have no problem letting them die, they earned it for speccing into it. Pay em no attention. I've gotten optionals very easily in most cases and when i need the handling of an escort, just drop the saucer and give it hell bud. Works out pretty well for me. WIth cruisers its about bringing utility to a group with your weps and your boff skills. All my energy weps at tetryon i burn down shields pretty quick, opening the door for escorts to burn down the hulls however they want. For tac skills using FAW and Spread, works out well in PVE. In PVP, cruisers are about useless though, cant turn or keep up with your prey. specced into weps and shields and hull across the board and I do pretty well. My Eng Tank Cruiser is actually my favorite toon. I got an Escort with a Tac also VA and hes kinda fun... but i can take on about anything in that Venture class and win 99 times out of 100 in pve. PvP, against other cruisers i do pretty well... tacs gimme fits but i dont pvp much anymore either so... do with that what you will.

    The Galaxy R is a whoooooooole other beast though... I LOVE mine... Maybe when the Odyssey gets its top removed I will love that too. Being able to go from slow clunky cruiser to fast hard hitting War Ship is a MAJOR boon for the R and makes it a totally different animal in both PvE and PvP.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Play what you enjoy, not what other players tell you to do. Everyone playing style and goals are different.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    jkstocbr wrote:
    Play what you enjoy, not what other players tell you to do. Everyone playing style and goals are different.

    As long as it doesn't involve shuttles or Connies.
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