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Lotto Items: Not that bad.

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Ok... I am probably going to be flambasted for this but that is alright. I have my +20% Plasma Resistant Shields and my Subspace Manifold on standby...

While I absolutely abhor this stupid pop up message about the Galors, which desperately needs to go away for ever, and I do not support great randomness Vs. actually buying what you want: I do think that generally speaking these Lotto items have not been that horrible.

Now a lot of folks will cry me a river right away saying "But I spent thousands of dollars trying to get X and I did not get it." ... Yeah... Well... That says something about your understanding of percentages and the laws of probability. However, as you were not forced to do that in any fashion and as you understood going into the arrangement that there was nothing guaranteeing you achieving your goals; I find no sympathy with you.

So why do I say these are not that bad in general? Well... For this one reason: They have left the things in these boxes unbound. The boxes themselves, the keys, the items you get from the boxes including the ship. So what you ask?

Well many people are crying because you "Must spend RL money on these." ... You must? Really? Why? What did you want? You could spend Dilithium to get some Keys to open some boxes with... Or you could go onto the exchange and buy whatever you were looking to get. Maybe you wanted that ship? Well it IS for sale there... Maybe you should use your RL money and buy things to sell on the Exchange until you get enough EC to just buy the ship. It would be the more logical and effective method.

I for one wanted some of the supplies, DOFF items, Tribble, and Horta (I'm a sucker for Tribbles and Hortas... I just can't help myself LOL). I also decided to grab the Runabout for the heck of it. I bought all these I wanted right off the exchange without spending one red cent of RL money. I did not open a single box and I have been selling them all on the exchange for EC to get what I want. Same thing I did with the last lotto item. I just bought what I wanted.

Running STF's is a GREAT EC and Dilithium maker BTW...


So: I do not really like Randomized things Vs. Straight Up sales. I really do not like that model and I feel it does prey upon some who literally have a gambling addiction which is not so cool. I absolutely 100% abhor the popup messages which only really serve to heavily deface Cryptic... I mean seriously guys... Do your selves a favor and put those messages into a coffin and shoot it off into a black hole... You are really making yourselves look bad and there is no reason to do that. However, I do not really find these Lotto items nearly as vile and abhorrent as many of the players do and honestly think many of you who find them so need to take a deep breath and look over the Exchange and just see if maybe it is not quite so horrible as you imagine.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I haven't spent a single cent on this game since the PWE acquisition, nor have I been willing to Grind (at all) so I haven't used the Dilithium Exchange to get any of the Lotto Boxes or Keys..

    ..And I still think they're absolute total TRIBBLE.

    Sometimes, it's the principle of the thing, not the personal stake.

    And before somebody comes in and flames me, I'd just like to remind people, I think Lotto-Boxes are fine, and I think Micro-transactions are fine.

    My problem is the way they are being done. lotto Boxes with One Big item and a ton of Junk are an invitation for grief, flaming, and hurt feelings, they make people feel ripped off. This is simply the way we work as human beings, we always convince ourselves we're going to be the lucky ones, and when we're not, well.. We get angry and sad and disappointed. Add a real-world money cost or a real-world time investment to it, and our reactions are compounded.

    If the Lotto Boxes made the slightest effort to be fair, if all the items had equal drop chances, or if all the items were of equal worth, things would be different.

    If the items in the C-Store were all Cosmetic only, it would be different.

    But getting blasted in PvP by some low-skill hack who bought three ships and their special abilities and extra Boff slots who hits you with a Bio-Neural Warhead from Cloak, then does an Alpha Strike with Quad Cannons and an extra Buff because of their extra Boff Slot, then nails on you with SNB to wipe your counters.. Only to finish you off without you ever even getting one good hit in.. And the fact that they won because of the four abilities they spent money to get and you didn't, well.. It feels cheap. It may not be fiscally cheap, but it feels like a cheap shot, like an unfair competition, a slanted field, a cheat.

    And nobody likes to feel cheated.

    They could do things better, but the Bean-Counters are running the show, and the Bean-Counters don't give a hoot if the game is fun, fair, or worthwhile, only if they can convince enough people to fork over cash.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Katic wrote: »
    ...
    But getting blasted in PvP by some low-skill hack who bought three ships and their special abilities and extra Boff slots who hits you with a Bio-Neural Warhead from Cloak, then does an Alpha Strike with Quad Cannons and an extra Buff because of their extra Boff Slot, then nails on you with SNB to wipe your counters.. Only to finish you off without you ever even getting one good hit in.. And the fact that they won because of the four abilities they spent money to get and you didn't, well.. It feels cheap. It may not be fiscally cheap, but it feels like a cheap shot, like an unfair competition, a slanted field, a cheat.

    For all you know they play the game for an hour a day, reach their dilithium cap, trade for cstore points and buy those ships during sales. Costing nothing but the time they are happy to put in to playing STFs and dailies.

    But I appreciate the mass-generalization you used even if this guy did not get those things in that way.

    It doesn't have to be you versus the "pay to win" crowd at every turn Katic.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I'll point out that if a low-skill hack is offing you with Quad Cannons, you're probably not that skilled yourself.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Like the man says: It's the principle. I too haven't spent a cent on this scam - and I won't, but the problem is that I supported Cryptic from day one with my $15 a month plus the occasional C-store purchases. I was there from the start... and as much as I don't particularly have a burning desire for a Galor-class ship... I want the opportunity to work towards one as a meaningful in-game goal, just like pretty much every other MMO out there. When every new meaningful shiny is reduced to a paid-for gamble, where's the incentive to actually... play the game?

    Hell, when they /did/ introduce a not-for-pay shiny in the form of the Odyssey we didn't even have to /work/ for it! If there's no money in it, apparently it's not even worth the man-hours involved in lavishing any attention on it.

    Once upon a time Cryptic justified the ridiculous emblem grind to obtain ships by saying random-drop loot was frustrating and 'un-fun', and it was better to have a system where one could definitively work towards a reward with a concrete goal in sight. Not only have they completely reversed that position, we're now invited to /pay/ for the privelige.

    It's just another example of how Cryptic has no over-arching philosophy for the game, no set rules, no theme, and no game-design guidelines that will not be immediately broken at the whiff of money to be made.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    LeanneArac wrote:
    When every new meaningful shiny is reduced to a paid-for gamble, where's the incentive to actually... play the game? ...
    Once upon a time Cryptic justified the ridiculous emblem grind to obtain ships by saying random-drop loot was frustrating and 'un-fun', and it was better to have a system where one could definitively work towards a reward with a concrete goal in sight. Not only have they completely reversed that position, we're now invited to /pay/ for the privelige...

    Not to take residence in this thread, but you do realize that you primarily obtain these optional items through regular gameplay. As an extra to regularly dropped loot. A direct change from the winter event shows that they assessed that 'people' were unhappy with how detached the Loot Presents were from the actual game.

    To participate you primarily play the game as normal. That is a step in the right direction from Cryptic in my opinion, and it has led to people being online, in queues, playing missions, leveling alts: Playing the game.

    Heck, some people have logged in to only re-run missions to collect boxes in order to give to friends who are seeking the goodies. That is a stronger impact on our community that in what the winter event created.

    If you want to participate then you do need a key, yes. Buy you don't need to pay for one. Buy one via dilithium and don't call it a scam if you or others want to participate that way. We are getting strong suggestion, certainly. But nobody is forcing anyone.

    Claiming you would like to work towards a goal of getting a Galor (as a meaningful goal) but don't want to participate in the only way its created is a slight cop-out on your part in my opinion. We have to accept the reasons why it can not be available to the mass community.

    Sure, sure, we might intend to purchase one for EC - made available by a player on the exchange at a later date - but then we should realize that Cryptic made that option available to us... to all people who do not wish to participate in the event directly at all.

    Its a very fair compromise.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I'm really starting to think you two are following me just to nit-pick my posts and draw threads off-topic.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    In this thread specifically, yeah, I'm just being a pest. I mean what I said in the other one, though I'll leave further comments on that in the thread it belongs in.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Jexsam wrote: »
    In this thread specifically, yeah, I'm just being a pest. I mean what I said in the other one, though I'll leave further comments on that in the thread it belongs in.

    Ok, well, lets let serious topics be serious topics and joke threads be joke threads, k?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    nynik wrote:

    Not to take residence in this thread, but you do realize that you primarily obtain these optional items through regular gameplay. As an extra to regularly dropped loot. A direct change from the winter event shows that they assessed that 'people' were unhappy with how detached the Loot Presents were from the actual game.

    Well, from what I've seen the boxes aren't exactly difficult to acquire, neh? Obtaining the box is a formality - nearly inescapable, in fact - because naturally Cryptic doesn't want to miss out on dangling the monetized 'hook'. I... really cannot see how someone could think that qualifies as gameplay or intertwines the reward with the game mechanics in any meaningful sense.

    nynik wrote:
    Claiming you would like to work towards a goal of getting a Galor (as a meaningful goal) but don't want to participate in the only way its created is a slight cop-out on your part in my opinion. We have to accept the reasons why it can not be available to the mass community.

    A cop out in what sense? The 'only way its created' is an unpalatable, blatant sales-drive, and I don't regard a sales pitch as a game. And I see no reason why we /do/ 'have to accept' those reasons, which have always seemed flimsy at best - particularly in the face of repeated dishonesty on Cryptic's part. I simply do not believe CBS are behind this implementation. It makes no sense. How are they supposed to have phrased this proscription? Why?

    And one way or another, the upshot of the grab-bag is that Cryptic (and ostensibly-but-probably-not CBS) are valuing these ships at - on average - hundreds of dollars rather than the already overpriced $15 or so... That they are content to sit back and say 'yes, this bit of coding is worth an average $250 to the consumer', which strikes me as just... obscenely mercenary and arrogant.

    I don't accept the dilithium exchange as some kind of valid 'in-game method' of bypassing the C-store, because ultimately any sale (whether it's me or another player) incentivises the drive towards monetization - and the /game experience suffers/. Every sale, whether it's obtained from the C-store or in-game from another player (who obtained it from the C-store) is a tacit acceptance of a those kinds of insane ship valuations and the locking of content behind prohibitive random chance-based drops.

    As someone suggested in another thread: It's only a matter of time before some bright spark at Cryptic suggests how much money could be made by pulling the same scheme with the D'Deridex.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Ok... I am probably going to be flambasted for this but that is alright. I have my +20% Plasma Resistant Shields and my Subspace Manifold on standby...

    While I absolutely abhor this stupid pop up message about the Galors, which desperately needs to go away for ever, and I do not support great randomness Vs. actually buying what you want: I do think that generally speaking these Lotto items have not been that horrible.

    Now a lot of folks will cry me a river right away saying "But I spent thousands of dollars trying to get X and I did not get it." ... Yeah... Well... That says something about your understanding of percentages and the laws of probability. However, as you were not forced to do that in any fashion and as you understood going into the arrangement that there was nothing guaranteeing you achieving your goals; I find no sympathy with you.

    So why do I say these are not that bad in general? Well... For this one reason: They have left the things in these boxes unbound. The boxes themselves, the keys, the items you get from the boxes including the ship. So what you ask?

    Well many people are crying because you "Must spend RL money on these." ... You must? Really? Why? What did you want? You could spend Dilithium to get some Keys to open some boxes with... Or you could go onto the exchange and buy whatever you were looking to get. Maybe you wanted that ship? Well it IS for sale there... Maybe you should use your RL money and buy things to sell on the Exchange until you get enough EC to just buy the ship. It would be the more logical and effective method.

    I for one wanted some of the supplies, DOFF items, Tribble, and Horta (I'm a sucker for Tribbles and Hortas... I just can't help myself LOL). I also decided to grab the Runabout for the heck of it. I bought all these I wanted right off the exchange without spending one red cent of RL money. I did not open a single box and I have been selling them all on the exchange for EC to get what I want. Same thing I did with the last lotto item. I just bought what I wanted.

    Running STF's is a GREAT EC and Dilithium maker BTW...


    So: I do not really like Randomized things Vs. Straight Up sales. I really do not like that model and I feel it does prey upon some who literally have a gambling addiction which is not so cool. I absolutely 100% abhor the popup messages which only really serve to heavily deface Cryptic... I mean seriously guys... Do your selves a favor and put those messages into a coffin and shoot it off into a black hole... You are really making yourselves look bad and there is no reason to do that. However, I do not really find these Lotto items nearly as vile and abhorrent as many of the players do and honestly think many of you who find them so need to take a deep breath and look over the Exchange and just see if maybe it is not quite so horrible as you imagine.

    You and me both, they're adorable! :p

    I'll agree, this is by far a better way to do it than last time, but I just don't like the practice flat out.

    However with the recent console changes, I'm genuinly concerned about all sorts of gear finding its way into the c-store and not at reasonable prices either, to the point in game gear is obsolete and pointless to get.

    And the thing that leaves the bitter taste in my mouth is that the profits dont directly translate into game improvements and less monetisation of other aspects. They can (and probably do) make a killing off these grab bags but they're still gonna charge for respecs for example.

    I've played these games before and I dont want STO to become another one of them, unfortunately it's showing the signs of doing so.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Way to get a little off topic friends... Time for the Kitty to put her Paw down.


    Rewarding players for playing the game = Great

    Giving the players reason to play the game = Required

    Allowing them to buy Advantages in the C-Store = Questionable... However, with Dilithium it is POSSIBLE to get these ships. What you are paying for in reality is convenience. You either pay with your time grinding or with money...

    Random Grab Bags = Poor


    What I was getting at was that there are a LOT of in-game methods to get this stuff from the boxes. You do not need to be scammed by them in any fashion. It is NOT a good model to begin with. They should just flat-out sell us stuff not sell us chances to get things. However, it could be far worse than it currently is. So of this sort of randomized gambling item these things are some of the least offensive if the stupid Pop Up message goes away.

    Imagine a Lotto Drop item where EVERYTHING was bound. Don't like what you got? Tough. Want to get it any other way than playing the lotto? Too bad. With the current system the smart player can just buy what they want thanks to others selling it. You reap the reward of their bad decision. However, it is unfortunate that they are even being presented with such a bad decision.


    As for the larger question of Pay to Win... It is Pay to Win NOW or Grind to Win Later... A FtP model HAS to sell you SOMETHING... Due to the development money that has to be spent to make these ships and such they sort of need to recoup their losses in that department. Selling you the ships is basically going to have to be a must... Allowing you to still have means to get them in-game is good though. They do need to find more worthwhile things for Dilithium to buy however.

    The question for this FtP model is this: Do we have to resort to slimy PWE practices to get money or can we make subscriptions and normal microtransactions of various goods and services that are straight up and on the level work to a pleasing level? Is it an absolute MUST to incorporate this revolting dogmatic adherence to greed and profit or is it possible to instead cover all expenditures (Including paying the Devs a Fair wage, because I am not for starving homeless Devs either), and make a modest but demonstrable profit and consider that a proper contract?
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