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Helna of Troy

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Hi everyone,

I could really use some feedback on my new mission, "Helna of Troy." It's a follow-up mission to TOS's "Who Mourns for Adonais."

Description: An archaeologist is requesting Federation assistance. Can you help him solve an ancient mystery?

Please leave feedback. I would especially like to know if you see any typos, plot holes, etc. Anything use a bit more polish?

Thank you! I hope that you like it.

ST-HUDZ7MX0S
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I just played through this mission-it was perfectly brilliant! I greatly enjoyed the puzzles and fight sequences. :)

    However, the bit with the admiral seemed-somewhat heavy-handed and un-ironic, especially due to her name being Admiral Lovejoy. Personally, I would leave the scene, but change the name to a more Starfleet-sounding one.

    Also, what was the point of the strange dance was my character doing when I began the side-quest? :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Played it. Loved it. Recommend it.

    (minor typo: "civilain" in the mission granting dialogue)
    (tiny suggestion: have a physical object spawn upon defeat of the optional mob at the dig. that way the player knows where to go)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Played it. Loved it. Recommend it.

    (minor typo: "civilain" in the mission granting dialogue)
    (tiny suggestion: have a physical object spawn upon defeat of the optional mob at the dig. that way the player knows where to go)

    Great typo find thank you. Any others that you saw?

    On the other suggestion, I'll check it out. I already two objects that spawn when the slidaks die. It's the pick up corpses invis object, which spawns another invis object of talking to supplier. I wonder why tricorder works on others but not those. Hmm...

    Thanks again for typo find. Let me know if you remember others.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    sm12905 wrote: »
    I just played through this mission-it was perfectly brilliant! I greatly enjoyed the puzzles and fight sequences. :)

    However, the bit with the admiral seemed-somewhat heavy-handed and un-ironic, especially due to her name being Admiral Lovejoy. Personally, I would leave the scene, but change the name to a more Starfleet-sounding one.

    Also, what was the point of the strange dance was my character doing when I began the side-quest? :)


    Funny, Lovejoy was the admiral from an earlier mission, so I didn't even think of the pun there, until you brought it up. I definitely get what you're saying, but she has a line or two in each of my missions, so I'll probably leave her in.

    It's a corny joke that doesn't affect the story. But I thought it was funny, kind of like why a boss should never give employees their cell number. I'll see how others react.

    Air guitar is too immersion breaking? I guess you're right. I'll change that.

    Thanks for the feedback.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Great mission! I love your map design, you have done some amazing things with the limited amount of "details" available in the Foundry. May I ask what base map you used for the dig site?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Maziken wrote:
    Great mission! I love you map design, you have done some amazing things with the limited amount of "details" available in the Foundry. May I ask what base map you used for the dig site?

    Thank you. It's the map, gateway ground.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I play computergames to shoot things not to use my brain... no, just kidding ;)

    I finished your mission a few moments ago and it was so much entertaining. I really loved it.

    The story was very good and has this special "TOS-feeling" with this ancient gods topic and the "hand in space". The riddle was challenging. It took some time until I got the hints but it was logical and made me read between the lines.

    The side quest with the pakled was funny. The guy really talked like a Pakled from the show.

    Also I liked the appearence of Helna. She really became a famous Foundry Character and I always enjoy meeting her. The character of the professor was well designed. I liked his rudeness (in some way) and that he changed his behaviour after Helna appeared. That made him a 3-Dimensional character (I am not sure if you say it like this in english but it means that he became a "real" character/person).

    The map designs were awesome. Especially the arena. Wow.

    Thank you Mr. Kirkfat for a very entertaining mission!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I play computergames to shoot things not to use my brain... no, just kidding ;)

    I finished your mission a few moments ago and it was so much entertaining. I really loved it.

    The story was very good and has this special "TOS-feeling" with this ancient gods topic and the "hand in space". The riddle was challenging. It took some time until I got the hints but it was logical and made me read between the lines.

    The side quest with the pakled was funny. The guy really talked like a Pakled from the show.

    Also I liked the appearence of Helna. She really became a famous Foundry Character and I always enjoy meeting her. The character of the professor was well designed. I liked his rudeness (in some way) and that he changed his behaviour after Helna appeared. That made him a 3-Dimensional character (I am not sure if you say it like this in english but it means that he became a "real" character/person).

    The map designs were awesome. Especially the arena. Wow.

    Thank you Mr. Kirkfat for a very entertaining mission!


    Thanks for the detailed feedback. It's the first I've received about the Pakled. I'm very glad that you liked it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Fantastic mission KF :)

    I really enjoyed the story and your "temple" design was really impressive. Perfect length too.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Fantastic mission KF :)

    I really enjoyed the story and your "temple" design was really impressive. Perfect length too.

    Wow. thanks GN. Any critical feedback? I can always use criticism.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Kirkfat wrote: »
    Wow. thanks GN. Any critical feedback? I can always use criticism.

    Not really. The only thing I noticed is that your space map didnt have the warp in effect, and I know that is only because it is a custom map and no custom maps have that. I've solved that issue on my missions by using the "Alini space" map which, despite its picture, is actually a blank space map. So you can completely customize the map to look how you want like you can with a custom map, but it has the warp in effect that all pre-made maps have.

    Of course, that is only a minor issue and since you've already built your space maps probably not something you'd want to change. But maybe on future missions. Either way I appreciate your time and effort and the entertainment I got out of it :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Hey,

    Just played through a couple of times and really enjoyed it. I'll agree with others--the temple design is excellent. And I think the puzzle there is one of the best in the game. It wasn't just about placing things or a logic or math problem (which I've used and it always feel a little odd for a ship Captain to be doing arithmetic). I actually had to read carefully and figure something out. It was great. I think we need more puzzles like this--it gives a sense of real exploration.

    I also thought the overall plot and other maps were excellent. And I really appreciate the little touches (like one of the archeologist's complaint about the variety of Starfleet uniforms or the explosion in the sky later on).

    There were a couple of things I noticed that I wanted to share. They're just details, but I figured you might want to know about them.

    In the first dialogue sequence with P'taki, there's a reference to "gun-touting" Starfleet types. I think that's "gun-toting." (Maybe two t's, though. Spelling isn't my strongest skill.) He also mentioned "the Hades" which I'm guessing should just be "Hades"?

    In the same dialogue sequence, I thought it was a little confusing when P'taki asks if you know about the historical episode involving Kirk and company. If you want to hear about it, you answer "No, I recall" (to paraphrase) and say "Yes, I don't recall" (to paraphrase again) if you want to hear more. That tripped me up every time. It felt like I should answer yes if I wanted further explanation and no if I already knew. Since you can redo the whole conversation (which is a nice touch), this isn't such a big deal of course

    When you get to the planet where the treasure is, I did play around a little to see if I could botch things up. If you don't head straight in but come around the asteroids, you can miss the marker associated with "approach the planet." You then have to come back and find the patrol. I don't think many people are going to be doing this, though. It did occur to me that you could put some markers in different points on the map between the player and the planet and have the appearance of enemies tied to reaching them. Someone could blunder into two of them, but that's life I guess. Or they could avoid them altogether with some luck.

    In the temple, I had some odd camera shaking at times. It took me a little while to figure that out--the energy ball has a camera shake linked to it, so if your camera is near it, you get that rumble. Kinda weird, but nothing you can do anything about.

    The arena was nice. And the wrap up worked well too, I thought. I liked your explanation (or rather, my Boff's) about why the final space battle looked the way it did.

    In summation, really well done. I hope you get a lot of positive feedback in the reviews.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Hey,

    Just played through a couple of times and really enjoyed it. I'll agree with others--the temple design is excellent. And I think the puzzle there is one of the best in the game. It wasn't just about placing things or a logic or math problem (which I've used and it always feel a little odd for a ship Captain to be doing arithmetic). I actually had to read carefully and figure something out. It was great. I think we need more puzzles like this--it gives a sense of real exploration.

    I also thought the overall plot and other maps were excellent. And I really appreciate the little touches (like one of the archeologist's complaint about the variety of Starfleet uniforms or the explosion in the sky later on).

    There were a couple of things I noticed that I wanted to share. They're just details, but I figured you might want to know about them.

    In the first dialogue sequence with P'taki, there's a reference to "gun-touting" Starfleet types. I think that's "gun-toting." (Maybe two t's, though. Spelling isn't my strongest skill.) He also mentioned "the Hades" which I'm guessing should just be "Hades"?

    In the same dialogue sequence, I thought it was a little confusing when P'taki asks if you know about the historical episode involving Kirk and company. If you want to hear about it, you answer "No, I recall" (to paraphrase) and say "Yes, I don't recall" (to paraphrase again) if you want to hear more. That tripped me up every time. It felt like I should answer yes if I wanted further explanation and no if I already knew. Since you can redo the whole conversation (which is a nice touch), this isn't such a big deal of course

    When you get to the planet where the treasure is, I did play around a little to see if I could botch things up. If you don't head straight in but come around the asteroids, you can miss the marker associated with "approach the planet." You then have to come back and find the patrol. I don't think many people are going to be doing this, though. It did occur to me that you could put some markers in different points on the map between the player and the planet and have the appearance of enemies tied to reaching them. Someone could blunder into two of them, but that's life I guess. Or they could avoid them altogether with some luck.

    In the temple, I had some odd camera shaking at times. It took me a little while to figure that out--the energy ball has a camera shake linked to it, so if your camera is near it, you get that rumble. Kinda weird, but nothing you can do anything about.

    The arena was nice. And the wrap up worked well too, I thought. I liked your explanation (or rather, my Boff's) about why the final space battle looked the way it did.

    In summation, really well done. I hope you get a lot of positive feedback in the reviews.

    Thanks MyGod. I really appreciate the feedback. I'll fix those typos and I'l try changing the boxes simply to "I remember that episode" and "I don't remember that episode." Would that be less confusing?

    I'm glad that you liked it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Hi Kirkfat, long time no see :)

    I just played your foundry mission and I thought I'd leave a short review here rather than in game.

    I was eager to play it for a while, but I wanted to watch the original TOS episode first, which I did today.


    The awesome :

    - Feel like old school trek. Yes ! Old school trek in STO ! AT LAST ! :D

    - Characters have a real personnality. I understand Helna already starred in another mission but this was the first time I saw her and I already miss her. Great Prof P'taki as well

    - Maps : every place was great and I realize how much work you had to put in this

    - Humor. Lovejoy, Ghostbusters, the naughty prof. drooling over Helna, all of this made me chuckle


    My problems :

    - Maybe the fights were too easy but I played it with a VA Tac/Escort toon so that's perhaps the reason ...

    - The puzzle : couldn't solve it.

    *
    *
    *
    *
    *
    *
    *

    !! SPOILERS !!

    I thought I had it though :

    - Northern pillar : Water
    - Eastern pillar : Wind
    - Southern pillar : Earth
    - Western pillar : Fire

    Sequence according to prof. P'Taki : Earth / Wind / Water / Fire

    So, assuming North = 1, East = 2, South = 3, West = 4, I thought I had to enter "3214". No luck. I tried a few things then I brute forced the code. I was very ashamed :-(

    If you could explain to me the logic behind the result (which I found quickly, by chance), I'd like to know.


    All in all, I had a great time. You know, your creation is exactly what we had in mind, back to the old days when we were asking for a foundry. Remember all the negative feedback and all those forum prophets telling us how this would kill the game and blah and blah ?

    Well, I'm glad to see that instead of destroying the game, and despite many problems and limitations, the Foundry gives us such jewels.

    Thanks again for all you do for this game (ah, the Leeta voice over campaign !), keep up the good work my friend :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Delazure wrote: »
    Hi Kirkfat, long time no see :)

    I just played your foundry mission and I thought I'd leave a short review here rather than in game.

    I was eager to play it for a while, but I wanted to watch the original TOS episode first, which I did today.


    The awesome :

    - Feel like old school trek. Yes ! Old school trek in STO ! AT LAST ! :D

    - Characters have a real personnality. I understand Helna already starred in another mission but this was the first time I saw her and I already miss her. Great Prof P'taki as well

    - Maps : every place was great and I realize how much work you had to put in this

    - Humor. Lovejoy, Ghostbusters, the naughty prof. drooling over Helna, all of this made me chuckle


    My problems :

    - Maybe the fights were too easy but I played it with a VA Tac/Escort toon so that's perhaps the reason ...

    - The puzzle : couldn't solve it.

    *
    *
    *
    *
    *
    *
    *

    !! SPOILERS !!

    I thought I had it though :

    - Northern pillar : Water
    - Eastern pillar : Wind
    - Southern pillar : Earth
    - Western pillar : Fire

    Sequence according to prof. P'Taki : Earth / Wind / Water / Fire

    So, assuming North = 1, East = 2, South = 3, West = 4, I thought I had to enter "3214". No luck. I tried a few things then I brute forced the code. I was very ashamed :-(

    If you could explain to me the logic behind the result (which I found quickly, by chance), I'd like to know.


    All in all, I had a great time. You know, your creation is exactly what we had in mind, back to the old days when we were asking for a foundry. Remember all the negative feedback and all those forum prophets telling us how this would kill the game and blah and blah ?

    Well, I'm glad to see that instead of destroying the game, and despite many problems and limitations, the Foundry gives us such jewels.

    Thanks again for all you do for this game (ah, the Leeta voice over campaign !), keep up the good work my friend :)

    You got hung up on the directions.

    Clue: This is the sequence: Earth, Wind, Water, and Fire
    Clue: Achiles looked to see 4 towers glow in the in night. (What element could make 4 towers glow?)


    4 <--> fire, so you now know _ _ _ 4

    Another clue: Ajax sailed, after twice defeating hector.

    I might try to revise it, so that the players know that directions have nothing to do with. But, the problem is that I had to names for the npcs hidden inside the pillars, and each name has to be different. When you consult the pillar, you're talking to a npc named "P'taki about the East Pillar."

    Thank you for the detailed feedback. I'm sorry that the puzzle was frustrating.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    If a lot of people are getting hung up on the puzzle, have you considered adding an NPC or some other method of basically giving them tips and/or just telling them how to solve it?

    It's probably just personal opinion, but when I put a puzzle my intention is that it's something to challenge the player. But, at the same time, if someone can't figure it out, or just doesn't care for puzzles, I like to give them a way to basically bypass it.

    I guess I've had too many experiences of playing an adventure game and coming to some ridiculously esoteric puzzle and just sitting there stumped for the longest time until I finally resort to checking an FAQ. It's nice to have a challenging puzzle occasionally, but sometimes it just doesn't click for someone, which is why I think it's nice to provide an out.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Nagorak wrote: »
    If a lot of people are getting hung up on the puzzle, have you considered adding an NPC or some other method of basically giving them tips and/or just telling them how to solve it?

    It's probably just personal opinion, but when I put a puzzle my intention is that it's something to challenge the player. But, at the same time, if someone can't figure it out, or just doesn't care for puzzles, I like to give them a way to basically bypass it.

    I guess I've had too many experiences of playing an adventure game and coming to some ridiculously esoteric puzzle and just sitting there stumped for the longest time until I finally resort to checking an FAQ. It's nice to have a challenging puzzle occasionally, but sometimes it just doesn't click for someone, which is why I think it's nice to provide an out.

    Hey Nag, I'd love to get your advice on the puzzle, if you have time. I feel conflicted about it. On the one hand, I want to give players a "Eureka!" moment. And, some of my reviews say that it's the greatest puzzle in the game and their fav part of the mission.

    So far, only a small portion of the players have trouble. And some of the praise that I love is stuff like: "Thank you for making me stop and think."

    I really don't want to cater to the impatient. I know that, in end, I'll probably get bad ratings for it. But, IMO, having that Eureka! moment experience to players is worth it. Plus, I've long given up trying to write missions in a way that please everyone.

    On the other hand, I hate to see those bad reviews.

    I do have a dialog option called "This puzzle is too hard!" set to become visible after the player has been search and thinking for a few minutes. It pretty much gives the answer.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    I don't think the puzzle was that hard. I basically did the same thing that Delazure did, then realized each pillar had a number attacked. I did get the "Eureka!" moment you talk about.

    Maybe either adding that "BOFF figures it out" option, or perhaps, when someone puts in the direction-based answer, the Professor or Helna mentions that the directions don't seem as pertinent to this society. Just my thoughts.

    Overall, awesome mission is awesome.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Kant_Lavar wrote:
    I don't think the puzzle was that hard. I basically did the same thing that Delazure did, then realized each pillar had a number attacked. I did get the "Eureka!" moment you talk about.

    Maybe either adding that "BOFF figures it out" option, or perhaps, when someone puts in the direction-based answer, the Professor or Helna mentions that the directions don't seem as pertinent to this society. Just my thoughts.

    Overall, awesome mission is awesome.


    Thanks. Yes, I think I'll add a hint from the Prof., saying "I don't think that the directions mean anything."
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Kirkfat wrote: »
    Hey Nag, I'd love to get your advice on the puzzle, if you have time. I feel conflicted about it. On the one hand, I want to give players a "Eureka!" moment. And, some of my reviews say that it's the greatest puzzle in the game and their fav part of the mission.

    I'll try to take some time to check out your mission after I get Atlas Affair part 2 done. I'll let you know what I think then. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    I played this and really enjoyed this mission.

    One cool thing that happened just by coincidence is that when I finished the mission, I checked my Doff tab, and I had just finished the Arucanis Arm Renown, giving me Helna as doff. It was like recieving anither mission reward.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Palermo62 wrote: »
    I played this and really enjoyed this mission.

    One cool thing that happened just by coincidence is that when I finished the mission, I checked my Doff tab, and I had just finished the Arucanis Arm Renown, giving me Helna as doff. It was like recieving anither mission reward.

    Awesome!

    /10chars
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    I've actually been giving your puzzle a lot of thought because it's precisely the sort of puzzle that I think this game needs more of. Just to put all my biases on the table, one of my favorite games of all time was Myst, and it was frustrating sometimes and I sometimes hated it. But I felt like I really discovered and accomplished something when I solved a puzzle, and that's what I'd like to feel in this game. It feels more authentically Trek.

    Here's an idea. I'll hide it in case it contains any spoilers:

    Maybe you could do something like this, instead of letting someone bypass the puzzle completely. Make them take a guess. That could trigger a new button where they get a piece of advice from the P'taki--maybe something about reading between the lines. When the player goes back and looks at the pillars (at P'taki's insistence, maybe) you could have a different set of dialogue boxes where, say, the numbers are highlighted. If that doesn't work, you could have a third round, where the numbers and the passages that indicate substance are highlighted.

    Anyway, that's just off the top of my head.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    I've actually been giving your puzzle a lot of thought because it's precisely the sort of puzzle that I think this game needs more of. Just to put all my biases on the table, one of my favorite games of all time was Myst, and it was frustrating sometimes and I sometimes hated it. But I felt like I really discovered and accomplished something when I solved a puzzle, and that's what I'd like to feel in this game. It feels more authentically Trek.

    Here's an idea. I'll hide it in case it contains any spoilers:

    Maybe you could do something like this, instead of letting someone bypass the puzzle completely. Make them take a guess. That could trigger a new button where they get a piece of advice from the P'taki--maybe something about reading between the lines. When the player goes back and looks at the pillars (at P'taki's insistence, maybe) you could have a different set of dialogue boxes where, say, the numbers are highlighted. If that doesn't work, you could have a third round, where the numbers and the passages that indicate substance are highlighted.

    Anyway, that's just off the top of my head.


    That's a great idea, My God. But those dialogues are default texts from npcs hidden inside the pillar. I don't think it's possible to change the dialogues like that. Is it?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Kirkfat - yeah. It's not possible to use Talk to NPC objective dialogs to trigger button state changes in amy type of dialog let alone NPC default text.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    Honestly I think you're all rethinking this puzzle way too much and missing the obvious ans simplest way to make it more "puzzle village idiot" friendly. You have a professor right at the temple with you that is supposed to be an expert on this whole thing, why not just better utilize him?

    I haven't had the chance to try out the foundry yet so I'm not sure how the npc text is, but couldn't you make it where the player has to examine the pillars and can then go to the professor and have the professor give a shortened explanation for the story the pillars are talking about? If you can force the player to examine the pillars first then you could still have a dialogue option with the professor and still have him give a more detailed telling of the story.

    I think having all the separate bits from the pillars put together into a mini story would still give the players that Eureka! moment, but just add that bit of extra "oh duh!" hint to the overall puzzle for people that need the extra help.

    Simply having the professor say he doesn't think the directions are that important just seems like it would take away from the puzzle overall.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2012
    The previous suggestion is a good one, and one I was thinking about last night.

    I'd still have the player guess at the solution once. Doing so could trigger a button in conversation with P'taki that was a request for more indepth help. That could open up a dialogue tree where he repeats the inscriptions on the pillars with certain bits highlighted. You could even have two sets rehashing the inscriptions--one with one piece of info highlighted and another (that appears after a second guess) with two.

    Hopefully that makes sense.

    One other option--this would be immersion breaking but it should work. You could have multiple NPCs in the pillars. One would be explicitly labeled "hard," the other "medium," the third "easy." The first would be the inscription straight. The second would be with one thing highlighted. The third would be with two things highlighted.

    Of course, none of this would be a problem is you could just despawn NPCs.
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