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Do we want gambling in the MMO's we play?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited February 2012 in Ten Forward
http://gamepolitics.com/2011/09/22/south-korean-game-rating-board-targets-jackpot-items-mmo%E2%80%99s

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/09/22/nexon-ncsoft-refuse-to-fully-cooperate-with-south-korean-mmo-ga/

South Korean MMO makers are under the Game Rating Board's microscope for allegedly obstructing an investigation related to MMORPG gambling.

Sure is in South Korea but it involves some large gaming comanies and it can come over to american courts when games are released here aswell, as seen by NCSoft vs TERA.

These grab bags / box's are basically casino grab bags in MMO's, they are gambling and there for gambling income. The old argument of but you know what your getting from a list of things is rubbish, you know that in a casino too, it's still gambling.
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Why was this moved to 10F?

    But yeah....this hits the nail on the head.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    http://gamepolitics.com/2011/09/22/s...-mmo%E2%80%99s

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/09...korean-mmo-ga/

    South Korean MMO makers are under the Game Rating Board's microscope for allegedly obstructing an investigation related to MMORPG gambling.

    Sure is in South Korea but it involves some large gaming comanies and it can come over to american courts when games are released here aswell, as seen by NCSoft vs TERA.

    These grab bags / box's are basically casino grab bags in MMO's, they are gambling and there for gambling income. The old argument of but you know what your getting from a list of things is rubbish, you know that in a casino too, it's sill gambling.

    Again it not gambling per se - because in Casino gambling you have the real chance of willing nothing. These boxes give you something 100% of the time - and (on paper) EVERY reward they give is of higher value (in the C-Store) then the 100 CP key. Ergo, technically , not real gambling.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Why was this moved to 10F?

    But yeah....this hits the nail on the head.

    To get it off the front page of the main board, one would presume.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    its not the gambling we want, its that nice shiny starship we want, but cryptic is like "lol you don't want to buy a nice shiny ship, you want a CHANCE to win a nice shiny starship by giving us small amounts of money in bulk"... I feel so disillusioned now.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Armsman wrote: »
    Again it not gambling per se - because in Casino gambling you have the real chance of willing nothing. These boxes give you something 100% of the time - and (on paper) EVERY reward they give is of higher value (in the C-Store) then the 100 CP key. Ergo, technically , not real gambling.

    Any time you play a game of chance, using real money (or things directly worth real money), it is gambling.

    Also, if certain outcomes are more desirable than others, and thus produce a gambling behavior and mindset, the arbitrary prices that Cryptic sets for the rewards are irrelevant. That's not even taking into account that the most desirable outcome is one which cannot be directly purchased.

    It's only a matter of time (in the USA, at any rate) before there's a slow news day and the media decides to run a story about people whose lives are ruined by this unregulated online gambling. I know, that kind of thing only happens in extreme fringe cases, but all it takes is one overblown national story to give legislators ideas.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    If you don't want to gamble, then don't? :confused:
    I don't like egg nog, but I don't want to forbid others from drinking it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Yesterday, 20000 dilithium was the equivalent price of a master key. No real money used! However, I suspect it may go higher when people will be selling their dilithium... starting today.

    But I admit I'm still a little uncomfortable with the formula. Yes the master key is worth less than the actual content, but I've got no use for a second sehlat cub...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    magitek wrote: »
    Any time you play a game of chance, using real money (or things directly worth real money), it is gambling.

    Also, if certain outcomes are more desirable than others, and thus produce a gambling behavior and mindset, the arbitrary prices that Cryptic sets for the rewards are irrelevant. That's not even taking into account that the most desirable outcome is one which cannot be directly purchased.

    It's only a matter of time (in the USA, at any rate) before there's a slow news day and the media decides to run a story about people whose lives are ruined by this unregulated online gambling. I know, that kind of thing only happens in extreme fringe cases, but all it takes is one overblown national story to give legislators ideas.

    Then, by that logic, McDonalds is a gambling establishment because anytime you buy a happy meal for your child, it's gambling as you don't know what toy will come in the box (and a lot of folks DO collect these things.)

    ^^^
    IE - at worst, the current Cryoptic grab bag setup is about as bad as this. Which is probably why the ATF isn't raiding their offices atm.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    http://gamepolitics.com/2011/09/22/s...-mmo%E2%80%99s

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/09...korean-mmo-ga/

    South Korean MMO makers are under the Game Rating Board's microscope for allegedly obstructing an investigation related to MMORPG gambling.

    Sure is in South Korea but it involves some large gaming comanies and it can come over to american courts when games are released here aswell, as seen by NCSoft vs TERA.

    These grab bags / box's are basically casino grab bags in MMO's, they are gambling and there for gambling income. The old argument of but you know what your getting from a list of things is rubbish, you know that in a casino too, it's sill gambling.

    Something's wrong with those links
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Kulzar wrote: »
    Yesterday, 20000 dilithium was the equivalent price of a master key. No real money used! However, I suspect it may go higher when people will be selling their dilithium... starting today.

    But I admit I'm still a little uncomfortable with the formula. Yes the master key is worth less than the actual content, but I've got no use for a second sehlat cub...

    +10 dilithium per C-Point in the last 30 minutes.

    Doubt it'll keep going like that. Once the initial day of hurrah and huzzah over it subsides. Plus people are dilithium speculating.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    There's a lot of last minute speculation, it's true. It's a big weekend for Cryptic, the featured episodes alone will probably bring a lot of people that will buy dilithium with their c-points. It'll be interesting to see how it evolves!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    "The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
    - Kosh

    Want it or not, it will happen. It is happening.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Again it not gambling per se - because in Casino gambling you have the real chance of willing nothing. These boxes give you something 100% of the time - and (on paper) EVERY reward they give is of higher value (in the C-Store) then the 100 CP key. Ergo, technically , not real gambling.

    No. you do not have to win or have a chance to win, nothing, in order for it to be gambling. its about the method used to get the prize not the prize itself
    Any time you play a game of chance, using real money (or things directly worth real money), it is gambling.

    correct.
    Yesterday, 20000 dilithium was the equivalent price of a master key. No real money used! However, I suspect it may go higher when people will be selling their dilithium... starting today.

    no real money? where do you think they get the keys from? cstore points. those points an intermediary of monetary value. no different than casino chips, in relation to this situation
    Then, by that logic, McDonalds is a gambling establishment because anytime you buy a happy meal for your child, it's gambling as you don't know what toy will come in the box (and a lot of folks DO collect these things.)

    No. and actually you do know what toy will come with it if you ask.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    For all intents & purposes, it's NOT gambling. As long as you can get the C-points needed to open up a lock box for free, it's not gambling. I don't know the drop rate for these, but assuming you can get one once a week by playing a few hours every day, if you can get enough dilithium to exchange for C-points to open one up every week, it's simply NOT GAMBLING.

    You can CHOOSE to spend real money on the keys, but as long as the option is there to not have to, i.e. do a bit of "Explore new Worlds" or Academy Lore or whatnot, nothing is stopping anyone from simply exchanging the dilithium for C-points to open them up.

    Therefore, F2P still stands. You can get the lock boxes opened for NO real world money.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Armsman wrote: »
    Then, by that logic, McDonalds is a gambling establishment because anytime you buy a happy meal for your child, it's gambling as you don't know what toy will come in the box (and a lot of folks DO collect these things.)

    ^^^
    IE - at worst, the current Cryoptic grab bag setup is about as bad as this. Which is probably why the ATF isn't raiding their offices atm.

    Yes, but I've never been to a fast food place where they wouldn't honor a request for a specific toy. If they didn't, then I suppose it would fit the criteria. If it were up to me, I'd simply have virtual currencies be worth real money, when they're sold for real money. The actual value would be irrelevant; if c-points are legally equivalent (in some capacity) to hard currency, then state gambling laws would apply.

    And it's still gambling even if you get the points for free (via dilithium), because someone paid for those points. Though I would concede that using stipend points from an early-buyer LTS would not be gambling (since the free points were not originally stipulated as part of the deal).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    At least these "Grab Bags" are not being sold its Only the key to open it. You dont have to you could just sell it and be done and everything that you can get can be sold/traded as well. A far cry better than what the prior bag was imho.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    At least these "Grab Bags" are not being sold its Only the key to open it. You dont have to you could just sell it and be done and everything that you can get can be sold/traded as well. A far cry better than what the prior bag was imho.

    The last boxes were drops / quest rewards as well, the only difference here is that we now buy a key instead of a box. Purchasing the box was optional last time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    It's not gambling when you don't have to buy the keys............. nobody is making anbody buy them, they are buying them themselves of their own free will
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Seriously, the grab bags all suck.

    At the very least, they could give gold accounts a few keys or something. I feel like i don't know what i'm paying for sometimes. Don't they want my subscription fee? I fear for STO on day's like this.

    :(
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Rhodes85 wrote: »
    No. you do not have to win or have a chance to win, nothing, in order for it to be gambling. its about the method used to get the prize not the prize itself



    correct.



    no real money? where do you think they get the keys from? cstore points. those points an intermediary of monetary value. no different than casino chips, in relation to this situation



    No. and actually you do know what toy will come with it if you ask.

    This ^

    /10char
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    DS9 has gambling. EQ2 has a npc where you can gamble. Non-issue.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    OMG Anyone else haveing Team Fortress 2 Crate's stacking up with no Keys to unlock them Flashbacks!? :eek:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Armsman wrote: »
    Again it not gambling per se - because in Casino gambling you have the real chance of willing nothing. These boxes give you something 100% of the time - and (on paper) EVERY reward they give is of higher value (in the C-Store) then the 100 CP key. Ergo, technically , not real gambling.

    Sorry wrong, there are games in casino's where you can win worthless or worth something rewards for betting, same as the casino grab bags in MMO's such as STO, and it is considered gambling.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    It's not gambling when you don't have to buy the keys............. nobody is making anbody buy them, they are buying them themselves of their own free will

    Wrong sir, it is gambling, just because you personally do not choose to gamble yourself does not change the fact it is gambling and gambling is in an MMO we are playing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Rhodes85 wrote: »
    no real money? where do you think they get the keys from? cstore points. those points an intermediary of monetary value. no different than casino chips, in relation to this situation

    I wasn't trying to argue it is not gambling, I was just pointing out that there exists a way to open those boxes without paying actual money. Even if c-points have monetary value, it doesn't mean you have to pay for them (anymore).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Re posted the links to the story articles on this, for some reason the links stopped working. :rolleyes: Pretty lame the topic got moved aswell.

    http://gamepolitics.com/2011/09/22/south-korean-game-rating-board-targets-jackpot-items-mmo%E2%80%99s

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/09/22/nexon-ncsoft-refuse-to-fully-cooperate-with-south-korean-mmo-ga/
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    So what's the problem? Why are you guys upset about these boxes? I don't get it. Let's have a multiple choice poll!!

    I don't like the boxes because:
    A) I gotsta have the ship and I'm gonna lose all my monies to get it!
    B) Gambling is wrong at every level.
    C) These boxes take something away from me.
    D) They break the feel of the game. Enemies should drop pancakes, not boxes.
    E) The boxes are like females being given away for free while the keys are males and have to be paid for. It's a sexist plot!! :mad:
    F) I just like to rage. My last heated argument was about the best flavor for a potato chip.
    G) They make the game more difficult.
    H) Other.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    hort_wort wrote: »
    D) They break the feel of the game. Enemies should drop pancakes, not boxes.

    Most definitely!! :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    DS9 has gambling. EQ2 has a npc where you can gamble. Non-issue.

    neither of these is true. ds9 gambling? you mean dabo? dabo uses latinum or credits. neither are real currency and neither are an intermediary representing real currency. therefore they are not gambling.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Technically, you can purchase a c-store points without spending any real money.

    This is the key difference and why they can legally argue it's not gambling.
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