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The 2800 - Do they have a chance?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Ok
2,800 ships is a lot. That is a lot of ships. But they are now outdated by over 30 years. We won the last war, and our technology has improved by so much, it seems like we should be able to beat them. Not easily, but it shouldn't be hard. Now, 2,800 ships is a lot no matter how old they are, but if the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, and everybody else join forces, perhaps we could win without loosing to much.

What do you guys think?
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Who's to say they have not been upgraded over time as well?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    HamRadio18 wrote:
    Ok
    2,800 ships is a lot. That is a lot of ships. But they are now outdated by over 30 years. We won the last war, and our technology has improved by so much, it seems like we should be able to beat them. Not easily, but it shouldn't be hard. Now, 2,800 ships is a lot no matter how old they are, but if the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, and everybody else join forces, perhaps we could win without loosing to much.

    What do you guys think?

    we only won the last war becasue those 2800 didnt show up....

    considering the dominion were beating on not only the feds, but i belive romulans and klingons as well at the time, it was quiet obvious they had superior ships at the time. whos to say they are completely outdated if they were better than our ships at the time?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    It is not the ships to worry about, it is the Crews aboard them. If they are all vets of many battles. It matter not the equipment, old it may be. But the skill behind them can proved to be deadly.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Cross82 wrote:
    Who's to say they have not been upgraded over time as well?

    They've been in limbo. Based on other things that went into the wormhole and came back at a later date (like that Bajoran poet or the USS Rapier), they may or may not have been aware of the passage of time, but they should not have directly experienced it in a physical sense.


    40 years ago, though, the Dominion wrecked everybody in the quadrant. They trashed Warbirds and manhandled Galaxy class ships all over the place, and the Negh'var only escaped by plot armor because there was only one of them shown and it carried a major character.

    Consider their position now: Player ships, even classes that themselves are Dominion War relics, are substantially superior to Jem'hadar ships. We've already been fighting relics. Their designs may have shifted, but their technology appears to have stagnated.

    We've caught up to and surpassed them, but this is still 2800 ships, attacking a peaceful conference between two by this point almost comically war torn powers, both facing a full scale Borg invasion while still counting the dead from multiple major and numerous minor conflicts.

    They'll stand a chance if for no other reason than the entire quadrant neither expecting them nor being in any shape to deal with them.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    We have future Defiants with cloak, quad canons, and after this last patch AMS and God-only-knows what.

    Nobody could stand against THAT.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    2800 ships is nothing. I'm sure most STO players have blown up more ships than that single handedly, especially those that were around at launch. :p:rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    As a primarily KDF character all I can say is...

    Its going to be GLORIOUS!

    There are many foes, thier ships are technologicly 3 decades out of date.. thier warriors are unaware of what may or may not have changed. They are going to appear at DS9 which is the base for the Omega task force, THE most tecnologically advanced ships in the alpha quadrant commanded and crewed by the elite f the Federation and the Klingon Empire.

    I think they are in for a serious shock.

    I'm picturing how my stature will appear in the hall of hero's just thinking about it... I may be the first Orion to ever be honored with a statue there to inspire the warriors of the empire.

    They can either lend a hand against the Borg, or they can leave, or they can fight, and they will die...

    I'm really hoping they chose the latter *grin*
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    hevach wrote: »
    They've been in limbo. Based on other things that went into the wormhole and came back at a later date (like that Bajoran poet or the USS Rapier), they may or may not have been aware of the passage of time, but they should not have directly experienced it in a physical sense.


    40 years ago, though, the Dominion wrecked everybody in the quadrant. They trashed Warbirds and manhandled Galaxy class ships all over the place, and the Negh'var only escaped by plot armor because there was only one of them shown and it carried a major character.

    Consider their position now: Player ships, even classes that themselves are Dominion War relics, are substantially superior to Jem'hadar ships. We've already been fighting relics. Their designs may have shifted, but their technology appears to have stagnated.

    We've caught up to and surpassed them, but this is still 2800 ships, attacking a peaceful conference between two by this point almost comically war torn powers, both facing a full scale Borg invasion while still counting the dead from multiple major and numerous minor conflicts.

    They'll stand a chance if for no other reason than the entire quadrant neither expecting them nor being in any shape to deal with them.

    Aint seen DS9 for a few years thanks for the info.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Consider the state of the Federation, only just getting into talks with the Klingons about a defense against the Borg after open warfare, worn down from attacks from various sources, just plain stretched thin.

    The Dominion fleet may be outdated, but they're blindsiding the Federation at a critical juncture.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I hope they do have a chance, but at the same time I hope they don't. Really from a wholly narrative point of view. We still have a few things hanging out in the open that still need to be resolved before we open up another major plotline that may also sit unresolved. The Undine from several missions (and Terradome) and the Iconians from the Romulan FE stick out most in my mind. I personally want some resolution to some of this stuff before we start dredging up more plotlines so as to shove content in. It makes the universe feel a bit too crowded with things like that, which are potentially very dangerous, just linger.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm ecstatic that there's this line of continuity we're getting from DS9. Absolutely ecstatic! Just really feels that from a narrative standpoint, there's far too much going on at once.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    HamRadio18 wrote:
    Ok
    2,800 ships is a lot. That is a lot of ships. But they are now outdated by over 30 years. We won the last war, and our technology has improved by so much, it seems like we should be able to beat them. Not easily, but it shouldn't be hard. Now, 2,800 ships is a lot no matter how old they are, but if the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, and everybody else join forces, perhaps we could win without loosing to much.

    What do you guys think?

    I don't think they will in a standard fight against everyone but I also think they'll emerge at a point when there's only 20 or so Federation and Klingon ships in range of DS9, story-wise.

    We take out a hundred or so but the rest immediately realize:

    A) They're weaker

    B) There is no non-aggression pact with Bajor

    So while we're busy fighting a hundred of them, the rest move in on Bajor, raze a few cities and occupy with half a million Jem'Hadar before we can get reinforcements. Unless we can persuade the Founders to intervene or cut off the flow of Ketracel White, they will take command of Bajor's defense force and upgrade their ships. But if we intervene the wrong way, they'll be prepared to blow Bajor to smithereens.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I hope they do have a chance, but at the same time I hope they don't. Really from a wholly narrative point of view. We still have a few things hanging out in the open that still need to be resolved before we open up another major plotline that may also sit unresolved. The Undine from several missions (and Terradome) and the Iconians from the Romulan FE stick out most in my mind. I personally want some resolution to some of this stuff before we start dredging up more plotlines so as to shove content in. It makes the universe feel a bit too crowded with things like that, which are potentially very dangerous, just linger.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm ecstatic that there's this line of continuity we're getting from DS9. Absolutely ecstatic! Just really feels that from a narrative standpoint, there's far too much going on at once.

    There are ways it could be folded in. For instance, the Dominion could disavow the 2800 and send us means to fend them off... and they could pledge loyalty to the Iconians.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I don't think they will in a standard fight against everyone but I also think they'll emerge at a point when there's only 20 or so Federation and Klingon ships in range of DS9, story-wise.

    We take out a hundred or so but the rest immediately realize:

    A) They're weaker

    B) There is no non-aggression pact with Bajor

    So while we're busy fighting a hundred of them, the rest move in on Bajor, raze a few cities and occupy with half a million Jem'Hadar before we can get reinforcements. Unless we can persuade the Founders to intervene or cut off the flow of Ketracel White, they will take command of Bajor's defense force and upgrade their ships. But if we intervene the wrong way, they'll be prepared to blow Bajor to smithereens.

    Yeppers, they're bred for war and conflict, this doesnt mean they're daft and charge in heedlessly every time, as impressive as that charge may be.

    They'll be much more of a threat in the flesh than in a ship, I don't think a reliable counter measure was developed for the subspace mines and IDK if you've fought any Jem'hadar in game lately but...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I personally can wait in the lounge at DS9 until they get more ships... just to make it a fair fight. :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I am of the opinion that, while I doubt the 2800 ships can truly win a war with the Federation, Klingons, and anyone else who wants a piece of them, they do have a chance to fulfill the final dream of the female changeling: To leave them with a victory that tastes as bitter as defeat.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    We have future Defiants with cloak, quad canons, and after this last patch AMS and God-only-knows what.

    Nobody could stand against THAT.

    Q


    :cool:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Consider a few things regarding the state of the Federation:

    A) The Federation is in NO shape for another war front, reason:

    1- The Borg have returned, making incursions on Federation territory. With that being said, most of the advance Federation Warships have been called to arm in the Gamma quadrant and to protect the Sol system from the Borg.

    2- The War against the Klingon Empire has taken its toll on the Federation. In other words our losses keep mounting. Even though we may have advance in technology by 30yrs, due to the war on multiple fronts, the Federation has been using ships that were in mothball for years - such as the Centaur Class, the Oberth Class, the Excelsior Class, and the old Galaxy Class etc...

    3- The True Way will be involved - and they have advance Cardassian and Jem Hedar technology. I am pretty sure they will make a push to assist the 2800.

    4- The 2800 are currently an unknown - they may have been in limbo for 30yrs - but who is to say when they appeared somewhere they didn't advance their technology.

    5- The Romulan civil war is also causing much havoc in the Federation front

    6- Though the Breen may NOT show up during the 2800 FE, they are still part of the Dominion Union

    7- our technology can still be counteracted - besides 30yrs has not advance the Federation far enough to the point where our vessels are super superior - It is to my understanding that current military technology makes a huge leap every 20yrs or so, and even that, by not much.

    (take the M-16 auto rifle U.S. made - the thing is just as lethal as it was first introduced - despite the various new weapons that have been introduced. Same applies with certain warships in the U.S. Navy)

    8- One final note and its the most IMPORTANT one - after the Star Trek Nemesis event - The Federation began to concentrate on its original goal (EXPLORATION) - The Federation was never about warfare but about exploration. I am pretty sure they concentrated in advancing science over military warfare tech.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    HamRadio18 wrote:
    Ok
    2,800 ships is a lot. That is a lot of ships. But they are now outdated by over 30 years. We won the last war, and our technology has improved by so much, it seems like we should be able to beat them. Not easily, but it shouldn't be hard. Now, 2,800 ships is a lot no matter how old they are, but if the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, and everybody else join forces, perhaps we could win without loosing to much.

    What do you guys think?

    You forget we now have a different situation.

    The Federation and the Klingons are at war with each other and with the Borg.
    The Rormulans have lost their homeworld and are still trying to recover. Furthermore they are in conflict with the Klingons and are more or less in a civil war. Last time we needed the Romulans to fight the Dominon. This time they won't help much.
    The Cardassians are still rebuilding and recovering from the last war. Like the Romulans they have sever internal problems including a splinter group of Jem'Hadar and Cardassians who will probably ally with the 2800.
    Also don't forget the Breen. From all factions in the first war they lost least. As far as we know they might now be stronger than before the first war.

    In addition we don't know how the Dominion will react. Will they ignore their former troops? Will they start a new war and join the battle? Will they ally with the Federation?


    So on there own they don't have a chance. They will catch the Federation/Klingon by surprise and will cause damage but ultimately they will be defeated. But in the greater picture they may be able to crush the Federation and the Klingons. Because in the current state of things Federation/Klingons will lose a war like the first one.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    dribyelruh wrote: »
    2800 ships is nothing. I'm sure most STO players have blown up more ships than that single handedly, especially those that were around at launch. :p:rolleyes:

    This :D

    And this makes those story plots where the enemy is oh so strong that we don't stand a chance so laughable, since we will in the end trash the entire 2800 ships alone. Repeatedly. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    BlackV7 wrote:
    Consider a few things regarding the state of the Federation:

    1- The Borg have returned, making incursions on Federation territory. With that being said, most of the advance Federation Warships have been called to arm in the Gamma quadrant and to protect the Sol system from the Borg.

    Slight problem there. Gamma Orionis is NOT in the Gamma Quadrant, NOR the Delta Quadrant. It's right within Federation territory. Well, was Fed territory, with the Borg over running it and all.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    There are ways it could be folded in. For instance, the Dominion could disavow the 2800 and send us means to fend them off... and they could pledge loyalty to the Iconians.

    That's pretty speculative and would represent a major shift in what the priorities of the Dominion forces coming out of the wormhole.

    Those priorities topped by #1 being loyalty to the Founders. Course what exactly happened to them in the wormhole isn't clear yet as the trailer seems to allude to the fact that the 2800 were aware of the passage of time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhorovWJL-Q 56 seconds in) and of what transpired during that time. Or it could be a reference to a scene that's played out in a later episode, but it would be an odd exchange of dialogue if it didn't take place right as the 2800 came out of the wormhole.

    Could they become allied with the Iconians? Maybe, but I find that unlikely given what we know of the Dominion's strategy when it comes to intergalactic affairs. They seem to employ a policy of brinkmanship, and only when they feel they have a military advantage over their opponent(s) in question.

    As for the Iconians...

    Unless they've fought a war with the Dominion in the Gamma Quardrant and won, I don't see Dominion forces, anywhere, fighting for the Iconians. So far, the Modus Operandi of the Iconians seems to be hiding in the shadows and playing cloak and dagger games. As has been alluded to, and partially revealed in "Cutting the Cord," the Iconians are responsible for much of the conflict in the Alpha and Beta quardrants as of late.

    Is it possible that the Dominion lost a war with the Iconians? Another maybe as we don't know what's been going on in the Gamma Quadrant for the past 35 years since the end of the Dominion War. We do know that the Dominion is a very large entity that has the resources to replace manpower, equipment, and ships fairly quickly as per what we know from the Dominion War.

    Course the Iconians seem to be able to appear anywhere, making the idea of conventional 24th/25th century warfare a bit outdated. But if they could truly muster the ability to simply outmatch the Dominion in such a conflict, why would they not have employed such tactics already against the powers of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants? Powers that aren't nearly as able to muster the might that the Dominion is able to.

    Unless the Dominion went, or is going through, some sort of decline similar to that of the Roman Empire, I don't see it likely that the Dominion itself, or remnants of it, past or present, would ally themselves with the Iconians.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Cross82 wrote:
    Who's to say they have not been upgraded over time as well?


    ... because they haven't had thirty years since they entered the wormhole. The founders redirected them to the current point in time- as far as they're concerned, it's still thirty years ago.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Don't worry. I'm sure Cryptic will just cut and paste the current ships in circulation, stats and all, so it'll be as if we're fighting brand new ships, not the best and brightest of 30 years ago.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Slight problem there. Gamma Orionis is NOT in the Gamma Quadrant, NOR the Delta Quadrant. It's right within Federation territory. Well, was Fed territory, with the Borg over running it and all.

    Thanks for the correction :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    AdmGillis wrote: »
    Don't worry. I'm sure Cryptic will just cut and paste the current ships in circulation, stats and all, so it'll be as if we're fighting brand new ships, not the best and brightest of 30 years ago.

    Keep in mind that the 'current' ships are bad cardassian knockoffs, and the 'real' Jem-Hadar ships are in the vein of the Christmas Grab-bag Bug with universal boff slots and a very heavy focus on tactical and engineering with next to no science focus.


    While that matters less for NPC ships, it probably means we'll see tactical and engineering enemy NPCs, but no sci's (thank god)

    Of course, yes, these ships are supposedly thirty years behind, but in all honesty starfleet has been using mark X phasers since TNG movie era, and while there've been obvious improvements across the board, I don't think they're too significant to make the jem-hadar fleet any less threatening.


    Something else to think about, but I doubt Starfleet ever really captured any Jemmie bugs to study- that was a major thing during the war remember (they devoted an ep to it), so they've probably only had the past couple months to study the ones popping up.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Yeah well, this whole LOCK-BOX loot/C-Store Key thing has seriously soured my excitement for this new FE:(. Not to mention any future FE's, cause you know what, this is the way it's gonna be from now on. Lock Boxes and Grab Bags for the really cool stuff.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    That's pretty speculative and would represent a major shift in what the priorities of the Dominion forces coming out of the wormhole.

    Those priorities topped by #1 being loyalty to the Founders. Course what exactly happened to them in the wormhole isn't clear yet as the trailer seems to allude to the fact that the 2800 were aware of the passage of time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhorovWJL-Q 56 seconds in) and of what transpired during that time. Or it could be a reference to a scene that's played out in a later episode, but it would be an odd exchange of dialogue if it didn't take place right as the 2800 came out of the wormhole.

    Could they become allied with the Iconians? Maybe, but I find that unlikely given what we know of the Dominion's strategy when it comes to intergalactic affairs. They seem to employ a policy of brinkmanship, and only when they feel they have a military advantage over their opponent(s) in question.

    As for the Iconians...

    Unless they've fought a war with the Dominion in the Gamma Quardrant and won, I don't see Dominion forces, anywhere, fighting for the Iconians. So far, the Modus Operandi of the Iconians seems to be hiding in the shadows and playing cloak and dagger games. As has been alluded to, and partially revealed in "Cutting the Cord," the Iconians are responsible for much of the conflict in the Alpha and Beta quardrants as of late.

    Is it possible that the Dominion lost a war with the Iconians? Another maybe as we don't know what's been going on in the Gamma Quadrant for the past 35 years since the end of the Dominion War. We do know that the Dominion is a very large entity that has the resources to replace manpower, equipment, and ships fairly quickly as per what we know from the Dominion War.

    Course the Iconians seem to be able to appear anywhere, making the idea of conventional 24th/25th century warfare a bit outdated. But if they could truly muster the ability to simply outmatch the Dominion in such a conflict, why would they not have employed such tactics already against the powers of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants? Powers that aren't nearly as able to muster the might that the Dominion is able to.

    Unless the Dominion went, or is going through, some sort of decline similar to that of the Roman Empire, I don't see it likely that the Dominion itself, or remnants of it, past or present, would ally themselves with the Iconians.

    I can't see where the 2800 would be allied with the Dominion, who have stated their desire for peace and isolation, and with Odo in a leadership role.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    <Pragmatic_Cap>

    Do they have a chance?

    Of course not. Because D'Angelo asked CBS if they were allowed to actually blow up DS9, and got slapped in the face for even suggesting it. :p

    </Pragmatic_Cap>

    ...But story wise, I suppose there is a question of the Federation's current defence posture, which is stretched out not only fighting the Klingons, but also the Borg.

    2,800 ships, outdated or not, could do a lot of damage before they were eventually stopped, potentially buying even enough time for the Dominion to send reinforcements through. (assuming the Dominion is aware of, or even approve of what is about to transpire.)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    2800 would not stand a chance againts all the major powers united.

    thing is all the major powers have been killing each other for the past few years, while fending off the borg, the undine and what ever else.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I can't see where the 2800 would be allied with the Dominion, who have stated their desire for peace and isolation, and with Odo in a leadership role.

    Either they're coming out of the wormhole thinking the war is still on and thus still fighting for the Dominion (just unaware of what happened), or they're fully aware of what's gone on over the past 35 years and are taking orders from some Founder(s).

    Given what the trailer has to offer, I'm more convinced that the latter is the case. We even see Jem'Hadar standing guard with a Founder wandering about on what looks like Bajor.

    Knowing what we know about the Founders, Jem'Hadar, Vorta, and the Dominion, it's far more likely that they're acting on their own and not in cahoots with the Iconians. It just doesn't add up for the Iconians to be involved here.
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