I have a question that I hope either a Dev or a math geek can assist me with. I am going to admit that math is by far my absolute worst subject, so I need someone to assist me in crunching these numbers.
I just spent a decent amount of EC in the exchange for 2 RCS consoles, which in the stats state that they increase the turn rate of your ship by 35 percent (this is the Mk XI rare - blue - console)
I must be worse in my math than I thought, however, because I was in space and monitoring my turn rate at various speeds and the percentages are far from even close to 35% even with one console. I understand that there is a wide debate out there about supposed "depreciating value" with multiple consoles; however 1 single console should have the effect it states in the stats. Here is what I found . . .
At x speed my turn rate with no console is 7.8. I added a single console. 35% of 7.8 would be 2.73. 7.8+2.73=10.53. So I was expecting that to be my turn rate when I equipped the console. However, when I equipped 1 console, I received a turn rate of 8.7, which is only 0.9 faster, making it only 11.538461538461538 % faster for turn rate. So why does the console state it turns the ship 35% faster? Is this a typo in the system? Is it a bug? Or am I entirely so far off in my calculations that I need to go back to grade school and re0look at the concept of math? Someone help me out here, please?
I searched this forum for anything having to do with RCS consoles. No one else has ever posted any doubts about the RCS turn rate, so I am making this new thread in hopes of shedding light on this subject, how to properly calculate console power with the answers that people post, and help others in the future. I appreciate anyone who posts with positive, constructive advice on this area.
((EDIT: To change title accordingly since my study on the matter expanded to more than just RCS consoles))
Everything modifies a 'base' number. The base number for your ship at that speed would appear to be a 2.5, which also makes no sense. Perhaps the bonuses are applied to your zero speed base turn rate.
So the math would end up being something like base+(base*speed mod)+(base*skill mod)+(base*console mod) to avoid exponential gains. The problem with that is it shouldn't use the zero speed base, that might be why the skills that modify it (impusle?) appear to be nearly worthless. Should be easy enough to test.
And replace the 'Auxiliary Power' part of the equation with Engine Power. You may also want to check the current base turn rates as this has changed for some ships since this article was written. I imagine the rest of the fomula should be accurate however.
What I know from my own testing, is that RCS consoles add a flat value each console, this is definitely based on your ship's base turn rate. Strangely, this does not match up to 35% of your base turn rate.
Where the actual turn rate bonus of a Raptor is 4.2 from an RCS console, yet 35% should be 5.25. However for an Odyssey, I get 1.1 per console, yet 35% of 6 is 2.1. For an Excelsior the value should be 2.8, yet it is actually 1.8. And for a Hegh'ta BOP, what should be a 7.35 increase is actually 6.3. See a pattern?
The formula for a quick calculation for what an RCS console adds to your turn rate is .35*[base turn rate]-1. And the reason why was posted just above me, with a more accurate formula for where the 35% actually is coming from.
However the addition to your turn rate from consoles is unrelated to engine power setting, speed or anything else, it seems to be a flat value independent of other settings. So in your case, any console you add should give you another .9 to your turn rate.
Or, to put it simply, on any ship which turns slow enough to really need a better turn rate, RCS consoles are useless. For some unknown reason Cryptic appears to love useless consoles. After all, why else would there be so many of them?
Or, to put it simply, on any ship which turns slow enough to really need a better turn rate, RCS consoles are useless. For some unknown reason Cryptic appears to love useless consoles. After all, why else would there be so many of them?
I wouldn't call them useless, but your right they are really bad on the oddessy.
I wouldn't call them useless, but your right they are really bad on the oddessy.
Thats the point. I don't know why people buy RCS consoles for millions of EC right now to hardly improve the WORST TRAIT on a ship like the Odyssey when instead they could focus on IMPROVING THE GOOD ONES. The Odyssey is no friggin escort. People tend to believe that in STO you win with pew pew and high turn rates. Okay, well you do BUT one cannot get the Odyssey to do that. Instead of investing effort time and money in a build that gives hardly 1 more turn rate, beacuase one thinks its necessary, maybe he or she should just stick to the ships already used. It's not like people are forced to fly the Odyssey because she's new
Hmm....I have two RCS consoles on my Oddy, one that gives 30% and the other 35%. Went from turning like a dump truck to turning like a full size pick-up. I guess it would be more accurate to say it powerslides more than it turns, but still....
And before anyone flips out on me, no, that's not my permenant build, or for PvP/STFs, that's a I-have-an-extra-slot-and-not-sure-what-I-want-to-put-there build.
I don't know about the math, but aux does NOT affect turn rate. This was changed back in season 2.
Make sure you are testing correctly, though. Were you moving when you tested it? You should test while moving at the same speed for both.
Thank you all for the replies. Yes I was moving at mx throttle, but NOT full impulse when I tested this. I left full impulse off but was moving the other way when I got the numbers I quoted above.
Everything modifies a 'base' number. The base number for your ship at that speed would appear to be a 2.5, which also makes no sense. Perhaps the bonuses are applied to your zero speed base turn rate.
So the math would end up being something like base+(base*speed mod)+(base*skill mod)+(base*console mod) to avoid exponential gains. The problem with that is it shouldn't use the zero speed base, that might be why the skills that modify it (impusle?) appear to be nearly worthless. Should be easy enough to test.
At zero speed, believe it or not, adding/subtracting the consoles made absolutely no difference in the numbers. It only made changes if I was looking at the numbers while I was moving and adding/subtracting consoles.
Thats the point. I don't know why people buy RCS consoles for millions of EC right now to hardly improve the WORST TRAIT on a ship like the Odyssey when instead they could focus on IMPROVING THE GOOD ONES. The Odyssey is no friggin escort. People tend to believe that in STO you win with pew pew and high turn rates. Okay, well you do BUT one cannot get the Odyssey to do that. Instead of investing effort time and money in a build that gives hardly 1 more turn rate, beacuase one thinks its necessary, maybe he or she should just stick to the ships already used. It's not like people are forced to fly the Odyssey because she's new
The ship I tested on was indeed the KDF Bortas. No I am not trying to win by turn rates. But i was wanting to make her an approximate match to the Odyssey for easier orbiting as a beam boat/broadside configuration (I still chuckle when i see people running cannons on something that simply does not turn. Death wish anyone?). I have no issue with the Odyssey for beam boat orbiting, but for those who do not know, the odyssey DOES have a faster turn rate than the Bortas. I was just trying to match it. Tub for tub, not tub for escort.
The reason I started this experiment was in the Nebulas for Empire Defense missions and other PvE areas, even runnign a beam boat on the Bortas was a pain because even federation "battleships" could easily zip out of the firing arcs and pick on me from behind. There is NO WAY anyone can improve a tub like the Bortas to use cannons or point anywhere. I only wanted to make orbit angles a bit easier. Not all of us are going for :the win" on certain traits. Sometimes it is nice, though, to make a task a bit easier in PvE. I never PvP so i cannot tell there people's motivations. **shrug** But if what this poster is saying is true, then I agree - people should not focus on trying to get a cruiser to turn like an escort.
I just wanted to reply to this one to make it clear that is not my intention
Okay now that i think I replied to everything of note, I wish to thank you all for your responses. I think what i am going to do is go back to use my Ablative Armor and other protection consoles (knetic etc) and toss out the turn rate idea. The main purpose of my post wasn;t on how to get my ship to "turn like an escort". It was aimed entirely at the m,ath of consoles in general in game and to get an idea as to how to correctly assess such a trait, as I am sure i must have been doing it incorrectly with the methods I have used.
Back to the game for now, but again thank you to those who contributed with your thoughts and debates on the matter.
RCS is obviously rather an edge on an escort pvping other escorts or dump.
Oddy is a tank cruiser used to soak up and chew weaker cruiser, minor fodder escorts or close up and beat the living **** out of them pesky science vessels that bother you so much. Use it like that instead of a F-15 and it'll do you good.
It's not perfect, arguably the star cruiser might be better, but it is free and it is there for whoever wish to use it (mainly freemiums who are 'forced' to unless they're willing to cough up dough or 'grind' dilithium). So might as well make good with it how you may.
All in all, there's some sort of pleasure driving a huge-*** vessel that if you zoom in on at the same level you'd on a sovereign it takes up your entire screen and can just stand there like a dumb brick in an ocean of BoP/Sphere disruptor/plasma **** and pick at its nose going "damn mosquitos and fireflies, give me a skin rash".
Yes. As an Odyssey tank, I feel like I'm most at home in a cloud of enemy ships. We can't turn like sci ships or hit like escorts, but we're great at staying alive.
Thats the point. I don't know why people buy RCS consoles for millions of EC right now to hardly improve the WORST TRAIT on a ship like the Odyssey when instead they could focus on IMPROVING THE GOOD ONES. The Odyssey is no friggin escort. People tend to believe that in STO you win with pew pew and high turn rates. Okay, well you do BUT one cannot get the Odyssey to do that. Instead of investing effort time and money in a build that gives hardly 1 more turn rate, beacuase one thinks its necessary, maybe he or she should just stick to the ships already used. It's not like people are forced to fly the Odyssey because she's new
Wait. They do? Millions?
Because they're a BoE reward Klingons get from mission replay, all the way up to Mk XI blues, the best in the game.
Yes. As an Odyssey tank, I feel like I'm most at home in a cloud of enemy ships. We can't turn like sci ships or hit like escorts, but we're great at staying alive.
It's also the best place for it to be because in the ground zero of the fighting, unlike 1v1s or general small group vs small group, there's no where for them to escape the wrath of the Oddy's firepower.
Sidesways, back, front, whereever they are in relation to the Oddy they're going to get the smack laid down and probably won't even realize where it's coming from admist all the chaos.
People must put RCS consoles on Bortas and Odyssey like crazy.
Why do they do this? To make the ships BEARABLE/enjoyable to play.
Even at the sacrifice of 3-4 engineering slots and overall efficiency.
I bought RCS consoles before the event. They were sold for much higher price and all were long sold well before the price for them became totally ridiculous.
RCS consoles offer less benefit the lower the base turnrate of the ship. Maybe they should be revisited.
The core issue is if the latest two cruiser designs really need to have a totally frustrating turnrate. Yeah yeah, cruisers don't need to turn, I get it... it's still frustrating.
RCS consoles are just a bad bandaid for a broken turnrate.
I must be the only person I know that doesn't seem to be bothered by turn rate.
I fly only cruisers on my engineer (and am currently flying the Odyssey while I wait for the +1) and have never been bothered by it. I don't have RCS consoles. I do have two EPS flow regulators for power but that's understandable.
There are *rare* occasions where I get momentarily frustrated trying to twist & turn my way to an anomaly or item drop when it happens to drop very close but just out of reach; particularly when it is behind me. However, this really does happen very rarely. I find most of the times items and whatnot drop fairly close or easy to get to.
As far as battles and general navigation, I've never really had an issue.
Because they're a BoE reward Klingons get from mission replay, all the way up to Mk XI blues, the best in the game.
I've always gotten the one from Ground Zero. Strange how that episode replay only gives uncommon weapons. At least now there's a reason for people to roll that KDF alt.
I've been tinkering with the Odyssey to see if I could get a comparable experience to flying my Tac/Excelsior - my Excelsior's got a turn rate of 14.8 fitted out the way I like her with my usual power settings - I PvP with this ship and do Elite STFs and she holds up brilliantly.
To get a 14.7 turn rate out of the Odyssey I went with 4 x rare RCS Accelerator Mk XI and the Borg Impulse Engines, Deflector and Console. I also had to go with 90(108) engine power which left me a little short on the weapons side 60(83) - my Excelsior usually runs at 123 weapons power so I knew I'd be taking a hit here (and in shields which I'm running at 25(59) on the Odyssey.
To prop up my poor DPS I went with purple MK XI Tetryon Beam Arrays and 2 x blue Mk XI Tetryon Pulse Generators (My Excelsior has 3 x Phaser Consoles) - it's a little weak but it's easily boosted with batteries, EP2W and the Red Matter Capacitor. I've also set up some custom power settings to switch the bias between firepower and maneuverability.
It's an interesting setup - not a serious endgame option (I wouldn't PvP in this or even do Elite STFs - the shields would buckle in a second) but it's fun, allows me to fly my Odyssey like an Excelsior and is powerful enough (if a little quirky) to PvE with effortlessly.
Would I have bought this ship? No. For me personally the Excelsior is easily the better ship. Am I having fun with the Odyssey? Hell yeah - and it looks sweet in M.A.C.O. shields
Doesn't the Breen engine give the best turn rate bonus?
Nope: +4.8 - Borg is +4.8, Omega Force is +5.1 (but the rest of the set doesn't add enough to the Odyssey to make it a better choice than the Borg set).
Just a note, if you throw your boat in reverse you turn faster. Its how I keep mobs in the firing arc of my dreadnoughts dual heavy cannons
It is also worthy of note that while running in reverse your defense value is lowered until it becomes negative. For all purposes you're drawing a mechanical bullseye on yourself that exposes you to massive crits.
People must put RCS consoles on Bortas and Odyssey like crazy.
Why do they do this? To make the ships BEARABLE/enjoyable to play.
Even at the sacrifice of 3-4 engineering slots and overall efficiency.
That'd be a major tactical error given that stacking 3-4 armour plates for a nice 40% protection would prove far more beneficial for the ship's overall survival spun. Or any other number of combinations which would improve its overall function significantly more than RCS stack.
If you can live without MACO shields... the Omega Shields have the mega +turnrate proc, not the Engines.
But well there is always hope... be it the two new big cruisers or the RCS consoles, maybe the Devs and especially Captain Geko finally recognize that "majestic turnrates" aren't all that popular and make future cruisers more agile.
I mean the debate isn't new and goes back to people feeling bad about the Galaxy turnrate before it got buffed somewhat.
Comments
I don't know about the math, but aux does NOT affect turn rate. This was changed back in season 2.
Make sure you are testing correctly, though. Were you moving when you tested it? You should test while moving at the same speed for both.
So the math would end up being something like base+(base*speed mod)+(base*skill mod)+(base*console mod) to avoid exponential gains. The problem with that is it shouldn't use the zero speed base, that might be why the skills that modify it (impusle?) appear to be nearly worthless. Should be easy enough to test.
http://theenginescannaetakeit.wordpress.com/articles-3/starship-mechanics/#turn
And replace the 'Auxiliary Power' part of the equation with Engine Power. You may also want to check the current base turn rates as this has changed for some ships since this article was written. I imagine the rest of the fomula should be accurate however.
Where the actual turn rate bonus of a Raptor is 4.2 from an RCS console, yet 35% should be 5.25. However for an Odyssey, I get 1.1 per console, yet 35% of 6 is 2.1. For an Excelsior the value should be 2.8, yet it is actually 1.8. And for a Hegh'ta BOP, what should be a 7.35 increase is actually 6.3. See a pattern?
The formula for a quick calculation for what an RCS console adds to your turn rate is .35*[base turn rate]-1. And the reason why was posted just above me, with a more accurate formula for where the 35% actually is coming from.
However the addition to your turn rate from consoles is unrelated to engine power setting, speed or anything else, it seems to be a flat value independent of other settings. So in your case, any console you add should give you another .9 to your turn rate.
I wouldn't call them useless, but your right they are really bad on the oddessy.
Thats the point. I don't know why people buy RCS consoles for millions of EC right now to hardly improve the WORST TRAIT on a ship like the Odyssey when instead they could focus on IMPROVING THE GOOD ONES. The Odyssey is no friggin escort. People tend to believe that in STO you win with pew pew and high turn rates. Okay, well you do
And before anyone flips out on me, no, that's not my permenant build, or for PvP/STFs, that's a I-have-an-extra-slot-and-not-sure-what-I-want-to-put-there build.
Thank you all for the replies. Yes I was moving at mx throttle, but NOT full impulse when I tested this. I left full impulse off but was moving the other way when I got the numbers I quoted above.
At zero speed, believe it or not, adding/subtracting the consoles made absolutely no difference in the numbers. It only made changes if I was looking at the numbers while I was moving and adding/subtracting consoles.
The ship I tested on was indeed the KDF Bortas. No I am not trying to win by turn rates. But i was wanting to make her an approximate match to the Odyssey for easier orbiting as a beam boat/broadside configuration (I still chuckle when i see people running cannons on something that simply does not turn. Death wish anyone?). I have no issue with the Odyssey for beam boat orbiting, but for those who do not know, the odyssey DOES have a faster turn rate than the Bortas. I was just trying to match it. Tub for tub, not tub for escort.
The reason I started this experiment was in the Nebulas for Empire Defense missions and other PvE areas, even runnign a beam boat on the Bortas was a pain because even federation "battleships" could easily zip out of the firing arcs and pick on me from behind. There is NO WAY anyone can improve a tub like the Bortas to use cannons or point anywhere. I only wanted to make orbit angles a bit easier. Not all of us are going for :the win" on certain traits. Sometimes it is nice, though, to make a task a bit easier in PvE. I never PvP so i cannot tell there people's motivations. **shrug** But if what this poster is saying is true, then I agree - people should not focus on trying to get a cruiser to turn like an escort.
I just wanted to reply to this one to make it clear that is not my intention
Back to the game for now, but again thank you to those who contributed with your thoughts and debates on the matter.
Oddy is a tank cruiser used to soak up and chew weaker cruiser, minor fodder escorts or close up and beat the living **** out of them pesky science vessels that bother you so much. Use it like that instead of a F-15 and it'll do you good.
It's not perfect, arguably the star cruiser might be better, but it is free and it is there for whoever wish to use it (mainly freemiums who are 'forced' to unless they're willing to cough up dough or 'grind' dilithium). So might as well make good with it how you may.
All in all, there's some sort of pleasure driving a huge-*** vessel that if you zoom in on at the same level you'd on a sovereign it takes up your entire screen and can just stand there like a dumb brick in an ocean of BoP/Sphere disruptor/plasma **** and pick at its nose going "damn mosquitos and fireflies, give me a skin rash".
Wait. They do? Millions?
Because they're a BoE reward Klingons get from mission replay, all the way up to Mk XI blues, the best in the game.
It's also the best place for it to be because in the ground zero of the fighting, unlike 1v1s or general small group vs small group, there's no where for them to escape the wrath of the Oddy's firepower.
Sidesways, back, front, whereever they are in relation to the Oddy they're going to get the smack laid down and probably won't even realize where it's coming from admist all the chaos.
Why do they do this? To make the ships BEARABLE/enjoyable to play.
Even at the sacrifice of 3-4 engineering slots and overall efficiency.
I bought RCS consoles before the event. They were sold for much higher price and all were long sold well before the price for them became totally ridiculous.
RCS consoles offer less benefit the lower the base turnrate of the ship. Maybe they should be revisited.
The core issue is if the latest two cruiser designs really need to have a totally frustrating turnrate. Yeah yeah, cruisers don't need to turn, I get it... it's still frustrating.
RCS consoles are just a bad bandaid for a broken turnrate.
I fly only cruisers on my engineer (and am currently flying the Odyssey while I wait for the +1) and have never been bothered by it. I don't have RCS consoles. I do have two EPS flow regulators for power but that's understandable.
There are *rare* occasions where I get momentarily frustrated trying to twist & turn my way to an anomaly or item drop when it happens to drop very close but just out of reach; particularly when it is behind me. However, this really does happen very rarely. I find most of the times items and whatnot drop fairly close or easy to get to.
As far as battles and general navigation, I've never really had an issue.
Is there anyone else who isn't bothered by this?
I've always gotten the one from Ground Zero. Strange how that episode replay only gives uncommon weapons. At least now there's a reason for people to roll that KDF alt.
To get a 14.7 turn rate out of the Odyssey I went with 4 x rare RCS Accelerator Mk XI and the Borg Impulse Engines, Deflector and Console. I also had to go with 90(108) engine power which left me a little short on the weapons side 60(83) - my Excelsior usually runs at 123 weapons power so I knew I'd be taking a hit here (and in shields which I'm running at 25(59) on the Odyssey.
To prop up my poor DPS I went with purple MK XI Tetryon Beam Arrays and 2 x blue Mk XI Tetryon Pulse Generators (My Excelsior has 3 x Phaser Consoles) - it's a little weak but it's easily boosted with batteries, EP2W and the Red Matter Capacitor. I've also set up some custom power settings to switch the bias between firepower and maneuverability.
It's an interesting setup - not a serious endgame option (I wouldn't PvP in this or even do Elite STFs - the shields would buckle in a second) but it's fun, allows me to fly my Odyssey like an Excelsior and is powerful enough (if a little quirky) to PvE with effortlessly.
Would I have bought this ship? No. For me personally the Excelsior is easily the better ship. Am I having fun with the Odyssey? Hell yeah - and it looks sweet in M.A.C.O. shields
Nope: +4.8 - Borg is +4.8, Omega Force is +5.1 (but the rest of the set doesn't add enough to the Odyssey to make it a better choice than the Borg set).
I did notice this recently. Backwards turning also seems to get more love from RCS consoles.
It is also worthy of note that while running in reverse your defense value is lowered until it becomes negative. For all purposes you're drawing a mechanical bullseye on yourself that exposes you to massive crits.
That'd be a major tactical error given that stacking 3-4 armour plates for a nice 40% protection would prove far more beneficial for the ship's overall survival spun. Or any other number of combinations which would improve its overall function significantly more than RCS stack.
But well there is always hope... be it the two new big cruisers or the RCS consoles, maybe the Devs and especially Captain Geko finally recognize that "majestic turnrates" aren't all that popular and make future cruisers more agile.
I mean the debate isn't new and goes back to people feeling bad about the Galaxy turnrate before it got buffed somewhat.
thought aux dident change turn rate. tho loading screen to this day still says when strfing a ship boost aut to make a 180 turn