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Hey, you. Yes, you, who reviewed my Foundry mission.

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
OK, so hopefully the thread title got your attention. I'm hoping that you're a player of STO who has reviewed Foundry missions, not necessarily mine. I'm also hoping that you haven't tried to make a mission yourself.

If you fit the bill here, I would like to ask the following:

Please stop leaving me and fellow authors the following reviews:

"I didn't have choices."
"There weren't multiple outcomes."
"The story was too linear."

If you guys and gals knew the sheer amount of work, tricks, and workarounds that it takes for foundry authors to even give the illusion of a choice, with differing outcomes, then you wouldn't leave these kinds of reviews.

The toolset is very limited, and we've been begging and begging for the freedom to do the things that you criticize us for not doing.

It basically lets us say, "hey you, go here, kill X, go here, do Y, go here, do Z." We are bound by these limitations.

So, a plea: Rather than adding yet another critique of our missions for not giving you more choices, branching objectives, varying outcomes, and consequences based on decisions, could you please voice those critiques to the devs for the limitations of the tools they give us?

Thanks for reading!
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    So give them their ability to choose! :p












    (Yes, I have my flamesuit on.)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I had a "The music doesn't fit" on one of mine. Like I have control over that! :rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Kirkfat wrote: »
    "The story was too linear."!

    That's someone from Bioware trolling back at the world at large!

    ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I had a "The music doesn't fit" on one of mine. Like I have control over that! :rolleyes:


    My fav was "The moon is transparent. You can see through it. Please fix."
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I reviewed one saying "I didn't ask for pickles, sending it back to the kitchen".:o
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Hey you! :)

    Welcome back btw been a while... I see you started posting again on my bday (the 27th)!
    Kirkfat wrote: »
    OK, so hopefully thread title got your attention.

    It certainly did! lol

    I certainly agree with you on this one; if only everyone knew how much effort went into some of the missions those reviews would be much kinder.


    P.S. If this were Foundry discussion I'd have to move the thread, but we're discussing reviews right and making people aware of how much effort some players put into their missions, right? Pretty much sounds like general discussion of the STO community to me...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Alecto wrote: »
    Hey you! :)

    Welcome back btw been a while... I see you started posting again on my bday (the 27th)!



    It certainly did! lol

    I certainly agree with you on this one; if only everyone knew how much effort went into some of the missions those reviews would be much kinder.


    P.S. If this were Foundry discussion I'd have to move the thread, but we're discussing reviews right and making people aware of how much effort some players put into their missions, right? Pretty much sounds like general discussion of the STO community to me...

    Yes, thanks, I put this in general because it's directed at the general playerbase, not other foundry authors. General players don't visit the foundry forums. I'm not sure that many devs do these days.

    Thank you for understanding.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Alecto wrote: »
    P.S. If this were Foundry discussion I'd have to move the thread, but we're discussing reviews right and making people aware of how much effort some players put into their missions, right? Pretty much sounds like general discussion of the STO community to me...

    Cool, a mod with self control. :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    As a player of Foundry missions, I'd just like to thank all of the creators of such missions. I'm sure a ton of work goes into them, and it's probably very hard to do with a toolset that appears to be fairly limited. The content you guys create for the rest of us is much appreciated.

    I'd also go as far as to say most of the missions generated by players, even with the limitations, are better than what passes for quests in other games. Seriously, the vast majority of quests in other games are inane drivel - some of the most contrived junk I've ever read, usually being nothing more than a basic rationale for why I should kill X of Y, or deliver A to B.

    The authors of Foundry missions at least attempt a real story most of the time. As I said, it's appreciated.

    Cryptic, please enhance the Foundry toolset. It's a great part of this game, but could use some love!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Rohn wrote: »
    As a player of Foundry missions, I'd just like to thank all of the creators of such missions. I'm sure a ton of work goes into them, and it's probably very hard to do with a toolset that appears to be fairly limited. The content you guys create for the rest of us is much appreciated.

    I'd also go as far as to say most of the missions generated by players, even with the limitations, are better than what passes for quests in other games. Seriously, the vast majority of quests in other games are inane drivel - some of the most contrived junk I've ever read, usually being nothing more than a basic rationale for why I should kill X of Y, or deliver A to B.

    The authors of Foundry missions at least attempt a real story most of the time. As I said, it's appreciated.

    Cryptic, please enhance the Foundry toolset. It's a great part of this game, but could use some love!

    Great post. Thank you.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Cryptic,

    Give us the tools to make non-linear objectives easier to implement--an objective editor that resembles the dialogue editor mode.

    Thanks,
    Darrenkitlor
    The best way,, currently, to create non-linear missions is from the ground up:
    1) Puzzles using dialogue trees as the interface
    2) Conversations with branching options
    3) Masking objects using triggers to "fudge" non-linear options.

    All of these require careful story planning and I use at least one element in every mission, especially conversation trees that have impact and different resolutions.

    My latest project has required tons of this forethought, due to lack of toolset options. i would've completed it back in September, had the tools made this easier to design for.

    This is not ideal as it limits what stories and objectives you can create--and requires a high proficiency in the toolset to create, making it harder for great storytellers to create this depth.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Well said, Kirkfat!

    I would also like to call upon the developers to allow us...IN GAME...to reply to the reviews given to us. I loathe the fact that somebody can give my mission a "flyby trolling", and I can't respond to their critique within the review reading pane.

    GIVE US A VOICE TO REPLY TO THE REVIEWS OF OUR PROJECTS!!!

    I mainly want to reply to the people that say things like, "I shouldn't have to write down where the starting point is...so you need to tell me 20 or 30 times in the dialog and mission logs."

    Or

    "The mission was too long. I know you said it was three hours in length, but I shouldn't have to read through all of that dialog and spend this much time on a mission."

    Egad.

    I don't care if some of these people give me a one-star review....I am just asking for the ability to respond to them so that new players to my mission don't take these people at their word. :/
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    someone seemed to think i had caused the auto fire bug specifically for my mission.

    so sorry everyone, that seems to be have been my fault.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    LOL! That was you, eh? Lynch him, boys! :D LOL At least they didn't blame the choice of music on you! :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Just because you can't make it so is no reason a reviewer should not say that he felt that it was too linear. If a mission does not even give the illusion that there is a story in-between go here and kill 5 of these then go there and kill this boss then a reviewer has every right to suggest that not enough effort has gone into creating the experience.

    Don't tell people how to review your missions other than to say. "please be honest"
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Zoot2 wrote:
    Just because you can't make it so is no reason a reviewer should not say that he felt that it was too linear. If a mission does not even give the illusion that there is a story in-between go here and kill 5 of these then go there and kill this boss then a reviewer has every right to suggest that not enough effort has gone into creating the experience.

    Don't tell people how to review your missions other than to say. "please be honest"

    I agree--even if it's difficult, a linear mission is a linear mission and there are plenty of ways to feign the illusion of branching options.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I Get Mission Has Bugs.......course It Does Its The Foundry!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I agree--even if it's difficult, a linear mission is a linear mission and there are plenty of ways to feign the illusion of branching options.

    But even when I go to the trouble of really trying to pull off the illusion, many reviews are like, "There is no real choice!"

    I can't give the players a choice beyond branching dialogue and some optional enemies to kill. Even then, the reviews say things like, "I should have been able to choose differently."

    These things are not possible with this toolset. Missions are inherently linear, even with the best attempts to disguise the linear nature of the mission.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Kirkfat wrote: »
    But even when I go to the trouble of really trying to pull off the illusion, many reviews are like, "There is no real choice!"

    I can't give the players a choice beyond branching dialogue and some optional enemies to kill. Even then, the reviews say things like, "I should have been able to choose differently."

    These things are not possible with this toolset. Missions are inherently linear, even with the best attempts to disguise the linear nature of the mission.


    Then it's out of your hands and not something you should concern yourself with. If that's what the reviewer felt was lacking from the mission then perhaps one day Cryptic could sit up and listen to the community and understand what they actually want. But given that there is also no choice in the missions Cryptic produce then I believe that it's a limitation of the simplistic engine tools rather than the foundry in and of itself.

    I doubt very much that beyond access yo more assets that there is little difference in the foundry tools and the actual tools that the devs produce missions on.

    But telling people what they can and can't say in a review because of the limitations set upon you means that a review then becomes useless because it's no longer a review but a solicited endorsement.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Relax, relax! Didn't you hear Dstahl is on the job (foundry)!


    ... yeah exactly...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Zoot2 wrote:

    But telling people what they can and can't say in a review because of the limitations set upon you means that a review then becomes useless because it's no longer a review but a solicited endorsement.

    That's kind of a stretch. Reviews can still be brutally honest and helpful. They are the most helpful when the player knows what is and is not the fault of a foundry author.

    That's all I'm trying to ask for, is for players to be aware of what is and is not the fault of the author. And, if they want to see real choice, then speak out to Cryptic instead of speaking out to authors in reviews.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Most players will never understand the Foundry, its limitations, or its bugs. Best you can do is reply to each clueless review individually and set them straight.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Kirkfat wrote: »
    But even when I go to the trouble of really trying to pull off the illusion, many reviews are like, "There is no real choice!"

    I can't give the players a choice beyond branching dialogue and some optional enemies to kill. Even then, the reviews say things like, "I should have been able to choose differently."

    These things are not possible with this toolset. Missions are inherently linear, even with the best attempts to disguise the linear nature of the mission.

    The summation of 20th Century philosophy is that you can never really know or change the Other's perceptions and are alone in the big, bad wasteland--so spend less time worrying about that and more time creating the missions you'll enjoy.

    A bad review can be disheartening but keep making the kinds of content that you, yourself, want to see.

    That's my existentialist take on Foundry reviews.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Kirkfat wrote: »
    OK, so hopefully the thread title got your attention. I'm hoping that you're a player of STO who has reviewed Foundry missions, not necessarily mine. I'm also hoping that you haven't tried to make a mission yourself.

    If you fit the bill here, I would like to ask the following:

    Please stop leaving me and fellow authors the following reviews:

    "I didn't have choices."
    "There weren't multiple outcomes."
    "The story was too linear."

    If you guys and gals knew the sheer amount of work, tricks, and workarounds that it takes for foundry authors to even give the illusion of a choice, with differing outcomes, then you wouldn't leave these kinds of reviews.

    The toolset is very limited, and we've been begging and begging for the freedom to do the things that you criticize us for not doing.

    It basically lets us say, "hey you, go here, kill X, go here, do Y, go here, do Z." We are bound by these limitations.

    So, a plea: Rather than adding yet another critique of our missions for not giving you more choices, branching objectives, varying outcomes, and consequences based on decisions, could you please voice those critiques to the devs for the limitations of the tools they give us?

    Thanks for reading!

    OK I apologize for us Silver players who've only started playing the game we thought you guys had full creative control :-). I have found unlimited content in UGC missions, I have started learning about Starbase UGC, the Foundry and I am very interested in getting into content development, let's face it Star trek is about exploration and only the foundry will be able to deliver that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    nynik wrote:
    Relax, relax! Didn't you hear Dstahl is on the job (foundry)!


    ... yeah exactly...

    Who Is Dstahl??:)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I just watched Modern Times by Charles Chaplin. I gave it 1 star because it had no colours.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    As OP said the problem is reviewers not knowing the limitiations of The Foundry (which has always been looked on as a potential "game saver" if more art assets and features were included.)

    I think alot of people might have given you a harsh review they've failed alpha quad 101 or a diplomatic mission, or seen an epic cut scene from an FE. It's like any of us watching star trek and then playing STO and then posting "hey I can't play poker with my BOFFS!" which some of us still do (pleeeeeeease cryptic). If the new foundry reviews are too many that ask for features and elements IMPOSSIBLE too acheive with what's there then it's the limitations of The Foundry then it's not your badm it's the limitations of the toolset.

    Personally I think of it like music, the FE's are like an orchestra with all the sections working together. The Foundry is like when all of the orchestra has gone home and just the dedication of the piano player has kept lhim there by himself, tinkling away, in the dark, alone...

    ^sorry I think got a but OTP at the end, :o
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Well said, Kirkfat!

    I would also like to call upon the developers to allow us...IN GAME...to reply to the reviews given to us. I loathe the fact that somebody can give my mission a "flyby trolling", and I can't respond to their critique within the review reading pane.

    GIVE US A VOICE TO REPLY TO THE REVIEWS OF OUR PROJECTS!!!<snip>/
    I fully agree. A rebuttal system would be very helpful.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Just put in your mission Description that you do not want negative feedback and I won't.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    cant speak for anybody but myself, but when i leave a comment on one of the foundry missions, its mostly about the overall feel of the mission. last time i played a decent one, that reminded me of watching an episode on tv. lil chitchat, lil drama, plot twists to show things at a differing angle and so on. was actually pretty nice.

    i definitly see the afford most ppl put into their stories, so i dont judge the system, cause i know theirs a lot of work and time involved but with limitations.
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