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New Sector Space

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Sector space needs to be fixed. While it is infinitely better than what we had before, it could still be better. I started putting some thought into how we can change it in another thread about something else. But I decided to start a new thread so we can centralize our ideas.

Too small
One of the issues with the current sector space is that it is too small. My ship is about the size of a tenth of the distance between Sol and Wolf359. While I understand “this is a game,” surely we could improve on that.

Broken up
We feel like we are moving from one tank to another. Add on the Odyssey’s new 60 second slipstream and you would run out of sector before you ran out of slipstream.

Too close
Part of what I remember and look fondly on when it comes to Star Trek is the vast distance between destinations. The voyage into the unknown was part of the allure of Star Trek.

So, what can we do? We take a page out of Elder Scrolls…

One Sector map
I’m talking about removing the sector walls. I’m talking about being at Earth and being able to set a course for Drozana without a single pop-up. I’m talking about activating my slipstream and there being no danger of me reaching a wall before it burns out.

Up the Scale
Make those planets and stars bigger. I want to feel like I just entered a new star system, not that I tripped over my daughter’s soccer ball. The star systems need to be grown to a size that is closer to life like.

Spread ‘em out
Let’s move the systems away from each other. Let it actually be a voyage from one star system to the next. With the addition of the “transwarp to mission” button, the distance between systems shouldn’t be a problem. It is very similar to the quick travel system in Skyrim. And just as it would take an hour to walk across the map in Elder Scrolls, it should take time to cross the Federation.

Unified Map à la Spore
We need one giant map that has all of the playable zones in it and it needs to be in 3D. We should be able to zoom all the way out and only see the major social zones. We need to be able to zoom all the way in and see they systems themselves with star and orbiting planet with info.

Up the speed
Due to the increase size, our ships should travel just a hair faster. Going to warp shouldn’t be akin to running. It should be akin to “holy cow that was fast.” That would make going to slipstream insane. This would make the trip from Sol to Vulcan close to what it is now, but would make it seem more epic. We also need a sharper scale. On the official warp curve, the difference between warp 8 and warp 9 is massive. It should feel that way in-game as well.

No collisions
There is absolutely no reason we should be having collisions in space. I’m talking about with other players. Yesterday I needed to take care of something and set a course for a star system. I came back five minutes later and my ship was still circling at the place I left it as the computer tried to find a way out. It wasn’t until I manually steered it that it set a course. Space should be so massive that the danger of running into a ship should be minimal.

More Spawn Points
This is an issue because if I leave Sol at a certain time, I am surrounded by other ships at the exact same point. There needs to be more spawn point around each massive star system so that the odds of me landing on top of another player is greatly reduced.

Halo Effect
Changing sector space to one large map will have the unfortunate side effect of reducing the population as now the 25 ships on a map includes the entire sector. So the number of ships per instance would need to increase. Also, we don’t need to load the entire map into our system memory, just those items within a certain distance. We need a halo that loads and as we near one side of it the halo moves into the direction we are moving so that only the info that is important to our current travels load. This would reduce the amount of memory our PCs use as there is no sense in loading Romulus if we are near Bajor.

This change would mean rewriting the core of the game. But I think it would be well worth the effort as these changes could flow over to other Cryptic games. And Champions already uses a large single zone map. So it is already within Cryptic’s abilities to do this.

What are your thoughts?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Yes, please.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I fully support this idea and would take back (almost) everything I've said about Cryptic if it happened. =^^=
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    An awesome compilation of what needs to be done for Sector Space.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    that would be ideal, but is it even possible? as in can the lowest level computer they target run it
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    100% agree with this! Sector space is lacking.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I think the fundamental level - breaking down barriers to make seamless 'sector space' - is something that's on the Devs wishlist (if we pay attention to past references from Dan Stahl), but the underlying issue is that they don't have the tech developed yet to handle the transition from multiple small instances to a single giant one with the 'halo' implementation (load only the players I can see).

    Tech is pretty much up to programmers and system designers (probably mostly the former). Programmers are in finite quantity, and can only take up so much workload at a time. Having the programmer-in-chief pulling double duty as STO's temporary Executive Producer probably doesn't help.

    So, it's likely possible with enough time and effort invested. Question is... do we get another iteration for revamped sector space, or implementation of other things first like fleet mechanics, crafting and a more solid Exchange interface? (amongst other things)

    My gut impression on this is that Sector Space will likely see an overhaul at the same time as STO's star cluster exploration concept will be revisited. But I wouldn't expect it to come in 2012 at all. In the meantime, sector space may not be as much as it could be, but it is serviceable (and already tons more appealing than it was in its first iteration).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Sector Space: I agree and so does Cryptic. Who knows what progress they have made in trying to make STO wall-less. But needless to say, if they are toe expand STO throughout the Galaxy, they need to make Regional Zones.

    Right there would make long-range Slipstream more viable and more cannonical.


    Spreading them out It would be nice if space travel felt more like space travel. Cryptic can increase the scale not only with distance, but speeds as well. So traveling to Vulcan wouldn't be any more different than it is now, but it would feel longer due to it having further distance.

    Celestial Scale This is one of the things I always wanted them to do. I'm glad during Beta they increased planet sizes then. But would love something like we have in Gamma Sigma (Khitomer Space), where you have a HUGE planet. So the new map of Mars would seem more to scale (and so would the moons).

    Player Scale Yeah, even though they tweeked the instance numbers, running into players in traffic jams is rather silly.

    Honestly wish we had a solar system stage that you could have the option to go immediately into Alpha Centauri Sector or Sirius Sector. And the DOFF system could be tweeked that it had the same missions, as to prevent people hovering outside in sector space.


    As for making space feel more like space. Here is an idea:

    With Astrometics View OFF, you could see more of a "dust" cloud that really is the edge of the milky way. The more you go up or down, the thinner the cloud gets. Of course this would be required for both a single sector map with a scaled down on objects so you can feel more like in space.

    Just a thought.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    PLEASE consider the upgrades suggested by the OP. Many of them have been requested for years.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Yup, support all of the above. Even though I dislike EVE, and don't like to mention the Game .... I liked watching the planets zoom away when you fly off to a jump gate.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    They've been talking about doing this for a long time. They were researching the tech involved, I haven't heard anymore about it lately though, not at the top of my list, but it would be nice though.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    They should try half-steps first. Like combining the two Cardassian Sectors Blocks into one, etc.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    the dev's said a while back, when they put in the aility to remove the astrogation stuff, that they wanted to make sector space bigger if possible, make it just one large sector map instead of many small ones.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    the devs definitely need to read the OP, and implement
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    My thoughts:

    1. There are walls and different sectors for a reason. It won't be easy - maybe not even possible - to tear down the walls. However, Cryptic should look into that since the current solution kills every feeling of "where no one has gone before". Space in STO doesn't feel like the "final frontier" but more like a shoe box. If there's no chance to remove all the walls, than it might be able to at least merge some sectors and therefor create much bigger sectors.

    2. Give us "real"star systems. Ok, this has nothing to do with the sector map, but with the feeling of actually being in space. Let's us fly from Earth to Mars and pass the asteroid belt on or way to Jupiter on single map with realistic or at least believable distances between the objects (by the way, the Moon is to close to Earth). No need for huge details or even explorable structures. Just a nice and believable backdrop with less loading screens.

    3. Do something about the loading screens. Players should be able to beam from every location within a system to every other location (or to the sector map) within the same system.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I actually was hoping they were going to do it similar to one of the demos I saw of sector space in PE's STO. I won't get into a debate of what they did or didn't do, but I'll explain what I saw (and how awesome it looked).

    Bascially thier Galaxy was split into around 10 sector blocks, each sector block had points of interest (planets, shipyards etc). In a sector block you warped between points (with an effect similar to slipstream drive). It was kinda of how many people would envision a solar system been portrayed in the game. Since Cryptic own all the stuff they developed, they must have these builds knocking around.

    Anyway, one of the awesome things it had, which could be amazing in this version, was that there was huge objects in the maps, for example large nebulas you could go though (we really only have the badlands currectly asa cool feature). Sector space really needs to a amazing to look at,

    I aggree with all the OP's point,s I also have an addition, with the increase in scale on planets (which tbh I feel should be the same size they are in system view (or maybe half the size perhaps) you could then have space stations orbiting the planets, this would mean when you approach a system you would get the option to enter the system, beam to the planet, or beam to the station, this would make it far more user friendly for players, especially for planets like MA where you need to enter the system before you can goto the planet. Infact with this system you could maybe even remove the system maps for some systems (such as MA), You would also have transwarop justspawn you in orbit of the planet in sector space, overall this would give a much more fluid play experiance to feels less instanced.

    For the full galaxy map, the tech is out there, just look at World of Warcraft with the way it's zones work on different continants. It is quite a bit of work to do, but I really believe that the benifits from an increase in playabilty to the game really justify it. Hell, I'd happily help out make some template system maps for a proof of concept :-)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Suricata wrote: »
    For the full galaxy map, the tech is out there, just look at World of Warcraft with the way it's zones work on different continants. It is quite a bit of work to do, but I really believe that the benifits from an increase in playabilty to the game really justify it. Hell, I'd happily help out make some template system maps for a proof of concept :-)

    The tech might be out there in different engines, but does it work in Cryptics engine?

    I'd say you just have to look to CO. CO has *huge* single environments compared to STO - look at the City or the West area or whatnot.

    Why can't Sector Space be that big? There would be less things to render - no buildings - and characters moving about shouldn't be a problem. They would be space ships instead of via superhero avatars. Plus there are fewer MOBs around to render.

    So, we know Cryptic's engine can handle large zones and high amount of objects. So, then what's holding STO back from implementing fewer but larger sector space regions, or even just *one* sector space map?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Destinii wrote:
    The tech might be out there in different engines, but does it work in Cryptics engine?

    I'd say you just have to look to CO. CO has *huge* single environments compared to STO - look at the City or the West area or whatnot.

    Why can't Sector Space be that big? There would be less things to render - no buildings - and characters moving about shouldn't be a problem. They would be space ships instead of via superhero avatars. Plus there are fewer MOBs around to render.

    So, we know Cryptic's engine can handle large zones and high amount of objects. So, then what's holding STO back from implementing fewer but larger sector space regions, or even just *one* sector space map?

    And that is my point. STO seems to be a step back compared to what Cryptic is able to do. The tech is there in the engine already, it just needs a plan for implementation.

    Another small gripe is the location of DS9. Why is it the busiest social hub, ESD, is located within Sol system but DS9 is an entire system away from Bajor? All of the maps I have seen places DS9 about where Jupiter Station is. It is well within the Bajor system. And if they go to the previously mentioned 3D zone map, theny need to put DS9 back into the Bajor system.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    It is supposedly going to be fixed and improved by the release of f2p. No worries
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Even if the devs went EVE-size scaling (which is pretty awful actually, if you've ever been toward a system's sun), EVE itself has each system as its own zone (i.e. you can fly in any direction but without those gates, you'll never reach other systems).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Even if the devs went EVE-size scaling (which is pretty awful actually, if you've ever been toward a system's sun), EVE itself has each system as its own zone (i.e. you can fly in any direction but without those gates, you'll never reach other systems).

    I've never played Eve. So none of my suggestions are produced with that game in mind. The only two games I'm considering is Elder Scrolls due to the large map it has and Champs due to the proof this is something Cryptic can do.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Did a quick mockup of how UI think the scaling would be,

    Sector map revamp scales proposal

    The distance between systems is enough that you can see whats in your area, but enough to givea feeling of distance (which would be greatly experianced by tweaking warp spped value to determine how long it takes to get between them). The Nebula's would have particle traces in them, to kind of inspire people to look for resources, random missions could spawn in these areas as well, (a kind of form of exploration).

    The planets would rotate around thier stars, maybe they only become visable at a certain distance, so you usually just see the star. As you can see from the Defiant next to the spacedock, you get a greater feeling that these are star systems in sector space, Using this you could easily put DS9 on orbit in the Bajor system, as well as allow players to beam directly to stations and planet surfaces.

    The aim for me, would to really flesh out the art style in sector space with grand nebulas used as landmarks (like the crab nebula in looks), so players can get a visual idea of where they are in the galaxy, infact, if done properly, an experiance player would be able to navigate sector space without even pulling up the map due to the landmarks.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Suricata wrote: »
    Did a quick mockup of how UI think the scaling would be,

    Sector map revamp scales proposal

    Yes, this is what I'm talking about. I'd have drawn it myself but I don't have a copy of Illustrator.

    But this is what I have in mind. The map and the sector should be one and the same. You zoom out from your ship, or hit the map button to select where you want to go. Then, after your ship sets course, you zoom back in to follow your ship on its travels.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    when hell freezes over. the reason we cant have what you want for sector space is the reason we cant be on the bridge and have our ship still be in sector space. the engine cant do it. why? Because unlike eve where u can eject your pod from your ship leave your ship in spaec and dock and undock and come back to your ship (if someone hasnt stolen it) is because your ship is an object or entity. In STO your ship is not an object or entity your ship is a costume of you.

    That is why when there used to be huge lag during launch, you would beam down sometimes as a ship on space dock and sometimes you would be flying your actual man in space. Because of the lag the costume had not yet updated.

    So you see, SPACE as we know it, is just a ground map. We fly in the 'air' which is costumed to look like space, that is why there is a FLOOR and a CEILING in sector space and instanced space. Your ship is YOU, but costumed to look like a ship. The ship again is not a separate object in the game world. Until it becomes one, alot of cool stuff won't be possible.

    the idea of always being at warp in 'sector space' is rather silly. I'd rather all space be 'normal' and to travel places like the systems around you have to engage warp, then when you reach the system you drop of out warp and into system space/instanced space whatever.

    Sector space and warp speed just feel.........SLOW, its a gimmick, sure you have stars streeking buy but it looks so slow because basically you are at FULL impulse, but they just make the stars streek faster. Which is why the shoe boxes are so small because otherwise it'd take forever at 'full impulse' to get there.

    All the warp 14 and warp 20 numbers are neccessary either. They could do a division so that the displayed speed is no higher than warp 9. It's just an illusion and all abstract travel.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Cruis.In wrote: »
    when hell freezes over. the reason we cant have what you want for sector space is the reason we cant be on the bridge and have our ship still be in sector space. the engine cant do it.

    But what we have pointed out is the engine can do it. Go play Champs. It has one large zone map with ceilings a lot taller than those used in sector space. Nothing I have proposed is outside of the skills of Cryptic. Would it take some tweaks to the engine? Sure. But that would benefit all Cryptic games.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    But what we have pointed out is the engine can do it. Go play Champs. It has one large zone map with ceilings a lot taller than those used in sector space. Nothing I have proposed is outside of the skills of Cryptic. Would it take some tweaks to the engine? Sure. But that would benefit all Cryptic games.

    id pay c-points to see it happen. But to mess with all that stuff is a lot more work than you think. Sector space is just an unimaginative implementation. It's a rushed implementation due to time constraints, it 'looks' better than before granted, but it still is the same implementation at launch, just polished graphically.

    If sector space continues to be sector space, i.e the stars streeking as we travel at *warp speed* i.e (full impulse) then it will always continue to be boring, we don't ever feel like we've gone anywhere. In fact each sector shoe box feels just like a rectangular system space.

    Lets say you have your ship. Your in space, your surrounded by stars in the distance and various nebulas and other effects, you call down a drop list of solar systems in your sector. You engage warp speed. Your ship jumps to warp as you travel to that location. You drop out of warp at the location, and then choose to enter the system you were heading for. Then system space loads.

    Maybe now that they are have a proper parent company, funds, hiring, within the next year or two, they will have had time to iterate on all the systems they rushed during development and hopefully sector space will be one, as i think it is a major component of the game in terms of atmosphere and immersion.

    There have been so many improvements since PWE, and season 5 is great, so im hoping :)

    So hopefully we'll see sector space 2.0 a complete redesign and re imagination of the way we travel and explore space and the star trek universe.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Suricata wrote: »
    Did a quick mockup of how UI think the scaling would be,

    Sector map revamp scales proposal

    +1
    Cruis.In wrote: »
    when hell freezes over.

    Be that as it may, there is still no reason they can not make changes related to scaling. The engine is capable of anything the Devs wish to invest time into making it capable of.

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Cruis.In wrote: »
    when hell freezes over. the reason we cant have what you want for sector space is the reason we cant be on the bridge and have our ship still be in sector space. the engine cant do it. why?

    how does one affect the other? Sector space only encompases your Ship, it doesnt affect your ground self AT ALL, so why cant sector space be one bigmap. we arent tlaking seamless transportation from space to gorund or vice versa, just wanting to go from sESD to DS9 or Defara without going through a lot of loading screens, the only loading screens one should hope to see are map transfers from ship to ground. MAYBE even system to sector space, instead of sector block to sector block as well.

    If hey can pull off sector space as one big map, then maybe if yoru lucky they will give "navigate from your ship" some possibility.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Tenkari wrote:
    If hey can pull off sector space as one big map, then maybe if yoru lucky they will give "navigate from your ship" some possibility.

    One thing at a time. I understand the technical limitations of flying from your ship. They are not as easy to fix as the sector walls are. But, perhaps with a bigger and more massive sector space, perhaps they will have time to look into it.

    I want to return some of the vastness to space. Right now it still feels a little bit like walking around a dark room with glowing balls telling you where you are at. I want to make it so that if I park in between systems, there is nothing but background stars surrounding me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    the tech limitations of flying from your ship are as i stated above. Your ship does not exist in the game world other than a costume. Therefore you cannot be in two places at once. (Your humanoid character in your ship) and your ship being visible.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    I'll iterate that I think missions at systems, would still require you to maybe zone into a private system map, so that they can use the more detailed maps and give players scripted encounters still. I still beleive you'd need some of the system maps, however, with these changes to sector space, you could remove the need for some system maps, as well as make travel between places more seamless and slightly more realistic looking.

    Basically, what I created in that image 'is' actually already possable with the game engine, those changes could be made (scaling wise) whilst still maintaining the sector blocks, so they could eactually phase these changes though whilst working on a global sector map, if that makes sence? One step at a time afterall! If the foundry were more versitle with map sizes and scalling I'd make an ingame mockup! :-P
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