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Ruddy Orions

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited April 2013 in Klingon Discussion
I was reading up on Orions, since one of my characters is Orion, and came across the Memory Beta Star Trek Wiki page on Orions. It has the best and most detailed information on the Orion race that I have seen so far. On this page it described 2 races of Orions other than the green common variety, a gray skinned science race and a orangish skinned nobility variety called Ruddy Orions. Can we have the color palette adjsuted on the character creator to include these races? Also note the Ruddy Orion males are depicted as having hair so can we have the adjustments include the option for hair too? Also note the clothes the Ruddy Orions are wearing, would make nice additions to limited cotume choices on the KDF side, hint, hint. It would be nice to have some more options on a very neglected faction.


http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Orion
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    It's fairly unlikely Cryptic could use this information.
    If you read the sources for this further down, you'll see it's from the old 1980's FASA RPG which is not considered a canon source. Not to mention using it would require licensing it from whoever now holds FASA's old licenses.

    http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Ruddy_Orion

    That's one of the big broblems of Mem Beta: they've got hughe pilwes of contradictory material from all kinds of sources and are trying to somehow get all of it into one single article even though it's nealy impossible to do so.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    to be fair, we have lots of skin colors on Earth, why should every Orion be green?

    Adding a few color and Hair options for RPers surely won't be considdered a violation of any one others IP.

    We sure as hell have no license to use fake Lightsabers...


    Also CBS at one point requested from Cryptic to do more things that build up on old Episodes.
    Expanding the limited information we have on Orions, especially since we can play with them, surely would be cool.

    And i don't mean adding more pew pew ships, but adding Storybackground to the actual Species, background that is signed off by CBS.


    ...personally i would not change my Orions color to orange... because i think it would look stupid.


    Also consider: Orions are Slavers, maybe the Green ones are just the guys that prevailed in the evolution of the Planet and the other ones are very rare by now?

    Maybe the Orange ones were the rich leaders once until some Genocide Event on the Planet, when the green ones took over.

    We had a lot of similar bad things happen on Earth, World War 3 for example...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Orange might be a stretch, but they could definitely do blue or gray (since blue is canon, and gray just makes sense).


    As to FASA not being canon, that never stops Cryptic. The Luna class technically isn't canon since it never appeared on screen, but Cryptic used it anyway.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    It would depend on how sensitive CBS will consider the matter however some aspects like the clothing would probably be more problematic than perhaps some additional skin tones.
    However in case of that when we look at our own variations of skin tones it depends on the amount of melanin in our skin.
    Melanin is brownish black and as a result most skin colours are basically some variation of brown, sometimes darker, sometimes lighter while the somewhat "pinkish" component comes from the layers under the one carrying the melanin (unless I got that somehow wrong) .
    So people with little to no melanin in their skin don't appear totally white as a result.

    But that would mean, unless Orion physiology is totally different, that their skin would be a variation of green like ours are variations of brown.
    Orange is only "related" to green via the primary colour of yellow so the only way I think this would work would be that the basic skin colour of Orions is actually yellow with variations going into "blue" and "red" via green and orange respectively. Which would only work if the skin under the layers carrying the Orion equivalent of Melanin were of a different colour than our "pink"...right?:confused:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Cuatela wrote:
    Orange might be a stretch, but they could definitely do blue or gray (since blue is canon, and gray just makes sense).


    As to FASA not being canon, that never stops Cryptic. The Luna class technically isn't canon since it never appeared on screen, but Cryptic used it anyway.

    They could however only use it since they struck a deal with Pocket Books.
    We know licensing issues stopped the Kziniti and the Vesta and all refences to other computer games.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    If FASA, as a compnay with a liscence to the IP, can make or create its own canon materila to fill in the gaps left by the shows and movies - WHy Can't Cryptic have the same level of self-creation?

    I have never understood this issue. Create some good for STO only canon material, push for CBS aproval and grow the game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Roach wrote: »
    If FASA, as a compnay with a liscence to the IP, can make or create its own canon materila to fill in the gaps left by the shows and movies - WHy Can't Cryptic have the same level of self-creation?

    I have never understood this issue. Create some good for STO only canon material, push for CBS aproval and grow the game.

    I couldnt agree more. The "Ruddy Orions" may be unusable....but that didnt stop them from creating Ferasians did it? I would totally give loads to re trait or re-species my Green Orion into one described as a Ruddy. Id even give up my Seduce Ability. just food for thought Cryptic :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    They didn't really create them
    "Ferasa" is the name of the Caitian home world in the Caitian language.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    mister_dee wrote:
    They didn't really create them
    "Ferasa" is the name of the Caitian home world in the Caitian language.

    yeah i totally get that, but they couldnt get rights to Kzinti...so instead we get a subspecies of Caitian that is to be very ferocious. They pretty much came up with the Feraisan doffs to give the Klinks the Kzinti in a round about way.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    While it is nice to have some consistency, which sticking to canon material does provide, it also limits the amount of material STO can use. Canon material for the Orion race is limited, vague, or downright umplausable. It is why I decided to use the non-canon Mem Beta material to come up with a background for my Orion instead of the sketchy Mem Alpha stuff. With Mem Beta I had details I could work with that was lacking in Mem Alpha.


    It has been stated that STO hasn't stuck to strictly canon itself. I don't know for certain if this is true or not, I'm not an expert on all things Star Trek, but if it is I say more power to them. If there is more enriching material out there available that is non-canon that will benefit the playerbase then I am all for them grabbing the IP and using it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    mister_dee wrote:
    It would depend on how sensitive CBS will consider the matter however some aspects like the clothing would probably be more problematic than perhaps some additional skin tones.
    However in case of that when we look at our own variations of skin tones it depends on the amount of melanin in our skin.
    Melanin is brownish black and as a result most skin colours are basically some variation of brown, sometimes darker, sometimes lighter while the somewhat "pinkish" component comes from the layers under the one carrying the melanin (unless I got that somehow wrong) .
    So people with little to no melanin in their skin don't appear totally white as a result.

    But that would mean, unless Orion physiology is totally different, that their skin would be a variation of green like ours are variations of brown.
    Orange is only "related" to green via the primary colour of yellow so the only way I think this would work would be that the basic skin colour of Orions is actually yellow with variations going into "blue" and "red" via green and orange respectively. Which would only work if the skin under the layers carrying the Orion equivalent of Melanin were of a different colour than our "pink"...right?:confused:[/QUOTE

    I get the point you are making with the melanin and skin tone but I also understand Star Trek is a ficticional universe with intergalatic space travel, warp drives, aliens, and other far out imaginings. These have all had plausable explainations attached to them to make them more believable so I am sure someone out there can come up with a plausable reason for an orangish skinned Orion.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    I see no reason NOT to add those skin tones to the color pallete. But NO special features. My reasoning is that I see quite a few "pink skin" Orions running around. If I was a beginner player, I would easily mistake those characters as humans. Only by looking at their character info is their species revealed.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    MagnumStar wrote:
    While it is nice to have some consistency, which sticking to canon material does provide, it also limits the amount of material STO can use. Canon material for the Orion race is limited, vague, or downright umplausable. It is why I decided to use the non-canon Mem Beta material to come up with a background for my Orion instead of the sketchy Mem Alpha stuff. With Mem Beta I had details I could work with that was lacking in Mem Alpha.


    It has been stated that STO hasn't stuck to strictly canon itself. I don't know for certain if this is true or not, I'm not an expert on all things Star Trek, but if it is I say more power to them. If there is more enriching material out there available that is non-canon that will benefit the playerbase then I am all for them grabbing the IP and using it.

    Think of it as some kind of tree, you use what was shown on screen as the root and then go from there.
    You inherit the knowledge from the root and then enrich what you have from there.
    Every company did basically that and of course depending in when they created their materials they used a different amount of canon material as their basis, in case of the old FASA stuff that was TOS and the first three (later there was a supplement for the 4th and then one for the 1th season of TNG) movies.
    However since the creators of things canon felt no obligation to recognise what FASA had created, for example FASA's backstory of the Klingons and Kahless is radically different.

    There is also the problem that every branch is isolated from the others unless a license is purchased to allow a "connection" between then.
    Interplay did that for their Starfleet Command (SFC) series: they had the license for TOS and the first six movies and also a license to use material created for Star Fleet Battles (SFB) license held by Amarillo Design Bureau.
    The SFB, which predates the first movie, was based only on TOS and some elements of TAS and then developed its own and completely isolated story both for the time before and after the events of TOS.
    Hence SFB (and SFC since it follows the same storyline) has a very different history for the events after the 3rd season of TOS and the "General War" that never erupted in canon Trek.

    In case of STO, well it's true Cryptic made some kind of deal with Pocket Books which allows then to use some their material as well, otherwise there would be no Luna and no mention of the IKS Gorkon in "The Path to 2409".
    But it's just some elements since Cryptic chose not to include the events of the "Destiny" novels into their backstory for STO.
    But some bits and pieces from other novels like the House Ozhpri Blood Wine reference can still be found in STO (in the "First City Tutorial"). But it's appearently restricted to stuff license from Pocket Books.

    I still don't see sticking with canon as a restriction since you can still do what you want as long as you don't contradict what's already there.
    Other companies before have managed to come up with their own ideas without copying what companies before them had come up with while avoiding contradicting canon.:)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    MagnumStar wrote:
    I get the point you are making with the melanin and skin tone but I also understand Star Trek is a ficticional universe with intergalatic space travel, warp drives, aliens, and other far out imaginings. These have all had plausable explainations attached to them to make them more believable so I am sure someone out there can come up with a plausable reason for an orangish skinned Orion.

    That's just me overanalysing stuff.;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    My problem with sticking to strictly canon as far as Orions are concerned is the canon material has very litttle lnformation regarding their society and culture. The only details we really have about them that are canon is depicted in the ENT episode "Bound". The information portrayed in that single episode is a convoluted, unnecessary, conspiratorial, desceptive mess. Why go to all the trouble of having the female Orions pretend to be slaves when in actuality it is the men who are the slaves? It is a ridiculous unnecessary deception. And if the female Orion's phermones were that powerful as to dominate men of every species then wouldn't they already rule the galaxy? The information we have in "Bound" seems like a hastily thrown together depiction of Orion culture that has very little plausibility. The old PnP RPG material has far more details and plausible material to work with, especially for STO's RP crowd, and is the reason I chose it over canon to work up a bio and background for my Orion character. STO should aquire FASA's IP lisence so they have better material they can work with too.

    In order for any Sci Fi material to be accepted by an audience/reader it must be based on plausible elements the audience is familiar with, things we see in nature or has a basis in technology/science we can grasp. Sci Fi that doesn't follow this rule and goes to far out there is not accepted by the mainstream audience. This is the reason for every series of Star Trek a team of people were hired to explain how the technology worked by combining real science principles along with theory and a little imagination.

    Having stated the above fact it makes more sense for the Orions attitude towards slavery, as portrayed in the FASA material, be based on a race/caste system (Something we have seen in human societies) rather than the episode of "Bound" where we have a unnecessary, unplausible explainantion for Orion slavery. It makes more sense for the Orions to have a tradition of slavery where both men and women of their own species are enslaved and would explain their cavalier attitude towards enslaving other races. If they have no problem making slaves of their own then other races would be fair game too.

    And does it make more sense that Orion phermones are used by both genders to heighten libdo in the opposite sex to attract mates/mating and used to seduce those of other races as depicted in the FASA material? Or should we go way out on the limb with the all powerful "Bound" phermones that enslave a persons mind and only the female gender has them? The former explaination we see in insects we are familiar with and are used by these insects in the same manner and by both genders. The latter is an overpowered stretch of the imagination. Also STO has itself deviated from the canon material by making the trait 'seduce",which mimics the Orion phermone thing, available to both Orion genders. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pheromone
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    It says on that same page that the Orions joined the Feds. RLY?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Unless someone else has posted this.

    Memory Beta is a non-canon StarTrek wikipedia.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    mondo80 wrote: »
    It says on that same page that the Orions joined the Feds. RLY?

    Take what's useful and furthers the storyline you have and leave the rest. Cryptic has that option if they aquire the IP. And that's what they need is options since what we have with canon is limited.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Nyxium wrote:
    Unless someone else has posted this.

    Memory Beta is a non-canon StarTrek wikipedia.

    Yes we know it isn't canon but Cryptic has aquired other IP's and deviated from canon so why cant we do it with the Orions and give the players more options. Basically all I was asking for was some more colors added to the palette skin tones and the abilitty to put some hair on Orion men. They necessarily don't have to use the FASA background on Orions, I took that liberty myself because of the slim pickings we have with canon. Although it would be nice if Cryptic did have some material they could elaborate on Orion Society and Culture.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Z3R0B4NG wrote: »
    to be fair, we have lots of skin colors on Earth, why should every Orion be green?

    Adding a few color and Hair options for RPers surely won't be considdered a violation of any one others IP.

    We sure as hell have no license to use fake Lightsabers...


    Also CBS at one point requested from Cryptic to do more things that build up on old Episodes.
    Expanding the limited information we have on Orions, especially since we can play with them, surely would be cool.

    And i don't mean adding more pew pew ships, but adding Storybackground to the actual Species, background that is signed off by CBS.


    ...personally i would not change my Orions color to orange... because i think it would look stupid.


    Also consider: Orions are Slavers, maybe the Green ones are just the guys that prevailed in the evolution of the Planet and the other ones are very rare by now?

    Maybe the Orange ones were the rich leaders once until some Genocide Event on the Planet, when the green ones took over.

    We had a lot of similar bad things happen on Earth, World War 3 for example...

    I'm not sure if the skin color depicted in the picture on Mem Beta is orangish, it maybe a copper skin tone. Take a look at the picture and see what color you think it is.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    MagnumStar, they keep the facade of "females being slaves to males" because it allows them far easier infiltration into other species. Humans, Ferengi, Klingons, etf.

    They don't see the real threat of the Orion 'slave' girl. Hence the head of the syndicate gifting all those slave girls to the Empire upon joining really means she was just spreading her circle of spies and informants larger.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    MagnumStar, they keep the facade of "females being slaves to males" because it allows them far easier infiltration into other species. Humans, Ferengi, Klingons, etf.

    They don't see the real threat of the Orion 'slave' girl. Hence the head of the syndicate gifting all those slave girls to the Empire upon joining really means she was just spreading her circle of spies and informants larger.

    I understand the purpose behind the whole let's pretend being slaves ploy but it is an unnecessary conspiracy. For one if you look good and have phermones that can seduce most males then there's no need to pretend to be a slave. All you have to do is present yourself to whomever you wish to seduce then use you wiles, charm, looks, and phermones to seduce them to where they are putty in your hands. A lot of good looking females in real life without phermones seem to accomplish this easily enough. Also rather than distribute them as slaves it would be easier to spread the Orion ladies throughout the galaxy as consorts since the Federation and other governments frown upon enslaving other beings. Also most males are not going to see a good looking female as a threat anyway. They are going to be too busy drooling over her to consider her a threat, especially one who has heightened her sexuality with phermones.

    I have no problem with the women being in charge (Any married man in our modern society learns quickly we are in charge of very little so it's a concept we can relate to) or the slavery bit but I would prefer a more plausible explaination for it.

    My own personal theory on this is long before Orions had space travel they had a tradition of raiding and trading with each other much like the Vikings in our own history. Since it was mainly the men who did the raiding and trading the women were left behind to run things till the men got back. But overtime the women, because they were used to running things, took charge and became the rulers of their communities. The men accepted this because it freed them from the responsibilty of leadership and allowed them to do what they liked best, raiding, trading, and warfare. From these raids or through trading slaves were aquired, the slaves did all the manual labor tilling the fields, construction, etc. So the men through raiding and trading supplied the wealth and slaves to support their communities while the women seen to the distribution of the assets, made the laws, set taxes, governed the populace, etc. (Sound familiar to any of you married guys.) Women were also the purveyors of art, literature, education, science, and architecture. When the men were absent the women were the main armed forces defending their communites from raiders from other regions. With the men always traveling sexaul attractant phermones were developed in both the male and female to insure procreation, althought the females use their phermones more effectively.

    When the Orions discovered space travel they merely took these traditions out into space. In modern times the Orion women have taken up raiding and trading. It is common now to see the women commanding starships or serving aboard them.

    Another tradition among the Orion women is one woman may challenge another female for the right to lead, rights to a male, or because of a disagreement. These duels can be fought till one gives up, to the death, or the loser is sold into slavery.

    Anyway that is my take on the whole phermone, slavery, women in charge thing. Now if i can only fit the Ruddy Orions into the picture.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    mister_dee wrote:
    It's fairly unlikely Cryptic could use this information.
    If you read the sources for this further down, you'll see it's from the old 1980's FASA RPG which is not considered a canon source. Not to mention using it would require licensing it from whoever now holds FASA's old licenses.

    http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Ruddy_Orion

    That's one of the big broblems of Mem Beta: they've got hughe pilwes of contradictory material from all kinds of sources and are trying to somehow get all of it into one single article even though it's nealy impossible to do so.

    I stumbled across this and found it interesting, pay close attention to the bottom. It would appear STO has already borrowed from FASA.

    http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Hassan_the_Undying
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    MagnumStar wrote:
    I stumbled across this and found it interesting, pay close attention to the bottom. It would appear STO has already borrowed from FASA.

    http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Hassan_the_Undying

    Then they should very much add more of the backsotry elements to the game. I would love to see some missions exploring the syndicate in more depth,
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    MagnumStar wrote:
    I stumbled across this and found it interesting, pay close attention to the bottom. It would appear STO has already borrowed from FASA.

    http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Hassan_the_Undying

    Question is whether it's enough to imply it's okay to to use FASA stuff.
    It would certainly be great if it were (I still love some of that material a lot) but it may be the same unintentional borrowing of concepts we're currently seeing with the similarities between the Klingon flagship and the Starcraft battlecruiser.
    And that seems to have been very unintentional since the Cap'n has said he never played Starcraft.
  • dhiemmdhiemm Member Posts: 240 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I was reading up on Orions, since one of my characters is Orion, and came across the Memory Beta Star Trek Wiki page on Orions. It has the best and most detailed information on the Orion race that I have seen so far. On this page it described 2 races of Orions other than the green common variety, a gray skinned science race and a orangish skinned nobility variety called Ruddy Orions. Can we have the color palette adjsuted on the character creator to include these races? Also note the Ruddy Orion males are depicted as having hair so can we have the adjustments include the option for hair too? Also note the clothes the Ruddy Orions are wearing, would make nice additions to limited cotume choices on the KDF side, hint, hint. It would be nice to have some more options on a very neglected faction.


    http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Orion

    Great information on the Orions would like to see some more color for them
    and some hair for the male toons
    DHIEMM.png

    Join date July 08
  • zipagatzipagat Member Posts: 1,204 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Holy necro.
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,820 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Ruddy Orions could have Orange skin because of diet, like Pink Flamingos.

    Still not big on Orange Orions.

    The Orions have like three major defining traits, being Green, Orion Syndicate, and S&M.

    Yes I said S&M and not just seductive. The Risans, Edo, and the Deltans are seductive in a more traditional way.

    The Orions are Seductive in an S&M way, Slave Girls/Animal women, males with pierces everywhere, sci fi bondage gear, submissives who are really in charge, and so on.
  • majesticmsfcmajesticmsfc Member Posts: 1,401 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    To be honest they need to get rid of the cream palette and only have green as Orions are green not cream/skin colour.
    Support the Game by Supporting the KDF, equality and uniqueness for all factions!
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,820 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I'd be happy with more Orion back story and depth.

    Or nudity, but that's doubtful.
This discussion has been closed.