I was watching one of the early episodes where Garak is getting to know Bashir and I had the thought, do you think Garak knew Bashir was genetically enhanced and that's why he initiated contact? Was Garak relying on Bashir's ability to "play dumb" while noticing the small details?
It's so funny you mention this! I was just thinking about this the other day as I was reflecting back on having just watched the entire series... you know, kind of a "if I knew this from the beginning" moment? But, yeah, I too am leaning towards this idea. It would be interesting to see if others agree.
I don't think Garak knew from the beginning. I think that he was able to deduce that from his interactions with Bashir. He was trained to a an superb observer of behavior.
I thought Garak initiated contact because he was attracted to Bashir--and sense Bashir was as lonely and ostracized as a new Doctor (and only genetically modified one) on the station as Garak was as the only remaining Cardassian.
Garak was bisexual during the initial performances but latter altered due to studio pressure, if I recall.
Was Bashir written in as genetically engineered from the beginning? I do not think so, but I could be wrong.
I always thought that Garek honed in on Bashir because he was lonely and he thought Bashir was the least prejudiced and softest of the senior officers. They also both worked on the promenade.
I know the writers didn't plan on it; that's not what this is about. This discussion is from an in-universe perspective.
Bashir had to play dumb to hide his genetics and seemed to have taken it a bit far in the beginning. But Garak saw through that and saw a man faking idiocy and tried to pull him out. Garak knew there was more to the man than beeing greener than the Hulk. Why else would he even be able to fight off a 99.9999999999999999999% fatal Lethian attack? Garak's a man who speaks in riddle and likes mind exercises. What better than a genetically enhanced human to not only test his verbal skills, but his mental ones as well?
Bashir was faking his abilities; but only someone as observant as Garak would realize it is just an act.
I know the writers didn't plan on it; that's not what this is about. This discussion is from an in-universe perspective.
Bashir had to play dumb to hide his genetics and seemed to have taken it a bit far in the beginning. But Garak saw through that and saw a man faking idiocy and tried to pull him out. Garak knew there was more to the man than beeing greener than the Hulk. Why else would he even be able to fight off a 99.9999999999999999999% fatal Lethian attack? Garak's a man who speaks in riddle and likes mind exercises. What better than a genetically enhanced human to not only test his verbal skills, but his mental ones as well?
Bashir was faking his abilities; but only someone as observant as Garak would realize it is just an act.
I think Bashir also seemed like a smart but lonely guy to Garak.
Before the end of the occupation, it's doubtful that Garak had much of a chance to fraternize with people from the Federation and Starfleet. So a young idealistic Starfleet doctor would be an interesting person to meet (and TRIBBLE with). And we all know Garak loves to TRIBBLE with people.
I doubt he knew that he was genetically engineered or even what Federation laws were in that regard, but maybe his years of practicing deceit allowed him to sense that Bashir might be hiding something, perhaps even thinking that he might be a Starfleet intelligence officer or CID officer posing as a doctor. He certainly was not the only one to sense that as Sloan tried to recruit him.
I doubt he knew that he was genetically engineered or even what Federation laws were in that regard, but maybe his years of practicing deceit allowed him to sense that Bashir might be hiding something, perhaps even thinking that he might be a Starfleet intelligence officer or CID officer posing as a doctor. He certainly was not the only one to sense that as Sloan tried to recruit him.
This is also likely. It's one of the quickest way of ruining an intelligence operation--it's akin to walking up to a monitoring van and offering donuts to the kind officers inside.
I doubt he knew that he was genetically engineered or even what Federation laws were in that regard, but maybe his years of practicing deceit allowed him to sense that Bashir might be hiding something, perhaps even thinking that he might be a Starfleet intelligence officer or CID officer posing as a doctor. He certainly was not the only one to sense that as Sloan tried to recruit him.
Might be possible.
I think its very likley that Garak recognized SOMETHING about Bashir. May be just that there is more to Bashir then it seems superficial. May be just that he is smarter then it seems... may be that he is hiding something... may be there ARE any signs (in behavior or some other way) that indicate "geneticly enhencements" and Garak picked those.
But something must have been there.
Garak was the one who "initiatet" the friendship... why else should someone like Garak bother about a freindship with an avarage Starflleet Doctor? There are for sure MANY other "intresting" people on a place like DS9.
Bashir wasn't genetically engineered from a back story pov when that relationship started. in other words it was shoehorned into the show at the last min with quite a lot of resistance from the actor involved purely for the story in which it was revealed.
as far as Garak goes the actor basically came straight out and said as far as he was concerned the character was omnisexual and he played Garak as most defiantly "camp" at certain times...i mean come on he's a tailor ffs...
as for what "canon" may be on the subject who can say but the fact remains that in the minds of the writers at the time there was no genetic engineering for Garak or Bashir to know about when that relationship was initially written, initiated and filmed.
so basically sorry folks but if you think you are seeing little tells and suchlike in their to and fro it has nothing to do with the (at the time non existent) genetic engineering of Bashir.
and it probably has more to do with the fact Garak was flirting with him...just a little :P
Garak is extremely adept at observation and deduction, almost to the point of being Holmesian (if that ain't a real word, it is now ).
Being a huge fan of both DS9 and Sherlock Holmes for many years, I've noticed that Garak and Bashirs' relationship has a lot of similarities to that of Holmes an Watson. It's in the conversations, the interactions. There's even an instance where Garak wakes Bashir in the middle of the night, which in the way it's shot and directed (accidental or intentional), appears exactly as happens in one of the Holmes adventures.
I agree with those who say Garak didn't seek Bashir out because he suspected the latter was genetically enhanced. I also agree that Garak may have approached Bashir out of a sense of social isolation - he's basically stuck on a station that's 1) controlled by the Bajorans, who utterly despise him for being Cardassian, 2) administered by Starfleet officers who don't neccessarily trust him. As others have said, as an observer of behavior, he may have seen Bashir, who was a young, inexperienced and - possibly criticially - open minded officer as the safest/most likely canidate to strike up an acquaintance, if not a friendship. Garak probably learned later (along with everyone else) that Bashir had been genetically enhanced, although he may have suspected the good doctor was concealing something; though he may have just chalked it up to one of those "personal secrets" most people don't reveal even to their closest friends/family.
It seems more likely to me that Garak found Bashir as a potential "weak spot" - someone in Starfleet that he could talk with without being immediately rejected. Maybe he also found him attractive. But Bashir was a young officer, still wet behind his ears. More easily to manipulate than some of the older ones.
Also, he might have found him refreshing, as Bashir was naive and romantic - and Garak lost that a long time ago.
Bashir wasn't genetically engineered from a back story pov when that relationship started. in other words it was shoehorned into the show at the last min with quite a lot of resistance from the actor involved purely for the story in which it was revealed.
as far as Garak goes the actor basically came straight out and said as far as he was concerned the character was sexually ambiguous and he played Garak as most defiantly "camp" at certain times...i mean come on he's a tailor ffs...
as for what "canon" may be on the subject who can say but the fact remains that in the minds of the writers at the time there was no genetic engineering for Garak or Bashir to know about when that relationship was initially written, initiated and filmed.
so basically sorry folks but if you think you are seeing little tells and suchlike in their to and fro it has nothing to do with the (at the time non existent) genetic engineering of Bashir.
and it probably has more to do with the fact Garak was flirting with him...just a little :P
As I said earlier, this isn't from a real world perspective. Retcon or not, the fact of the matter is Bashir was genetically enhanced at this time even if we knew nothing about it. This is a discussion from an in-universe perspective. Go watch SFDebris's review of Dr Bashir, I Presume. In it he states that having Dr Bashir be genetically enhanced actually clears up a lot of character inconsistencies. So again, I'm not looking at this from a TV standpoint, but from within the Star Trek universe itself.
So from the beginning we have the sexually ambiguous spy talking to the green genius. Two men basically trying too hard to hide the truth about themselves. Why else would Bashir choose what was supposed to be a hole-in-the-wall assignment when he could have picked any assignment he wanted? He could live out his career with little fear of being caught. Of course, that changed when the wormhole was found and he work caught the attention of Lewis Zimmerman.
Andrew Robinson himself stated that he believed that there was something about Bashir's desire to help others that caught and held Garak's interest; something that was apparently lacking in Cardassian society.
Andrew Robinson himself stated that he believed that there was something about Bashir's desire to help others that caught and held Garak's interest; something that was apparently lacking in Cardassian society.
The could have something to do with it. Garak's attitude toward the Bajoran's was definitely counter of that of Dukat's. Perhaps Garak was appalled at the occupation in a sense that it distracted Cardassia from its true enemies or perhaps he did feel clean in the persecution of genuinely innocent people. Garak is a contradiction; a man in the desperate search for truth while claiming he doesn't believe in it. He's like an athiest desperately trying to find God.
Why else would Bashir choose what was supposed to be a hole-in-the-wall assignment when he could have picked any assignment he wanted? He could live out his career with little fear of being caught.
While it is a nice explaination, I think it was a rather minor consideration. Bashir has said on multiple occassions that DS9 was the assignment he wanted, a post on the "edge of the frontier." If he'd been THAT concerned about his background being discovered, I think he would have put in for a transfer the first chance he had once the wormhole was discovered and DS9's importance jumped from some isolated backwater to a major transportation hub.
Bashir was doing pretty well hiding his genetically enhanced background for a good 25 years (more or less). The only reason it came to light was a) Zimmerman was doing a *thorough* background check and b) his parents were stupid enough to reveal his secret in a public area instead somewhere more private (never mind the "Bashir" they were talking to was a hologram).
I'm re-watching DS9 right now and well into the second season. I observed in one episode Bashir was explaining to O'Brian that he had a choice to become head of a hospital in like five years and stay with his ballerina girlfriend but instead ran off to the far reaches of space. Who would do this? I understand he is young and probably afraid of commitment and all that TRIBBLE BUT he seems pretty serious about a committed relationship with Dax at this point in the show so I don't buy that. I always figured that him staying on earth and becoming head of a hospital and being with a ballerina may have scared him because the job was high profile or maybe someone would find out that he was a little too good at his job. Might be stretching a little but the genetic engineering "excuse" seems relevant here.
The could have something to do with it. Garak's attitude toward the Bajoran's was definitely counter of that of Dukat's. Perhaps Garak was appalled at the occupation in a sense that it distracted Cardassia from its true enemies or perhaps he did feel clean in the persecution of genuinely innocent people. Garak is a contradiction; a man in the desperate search for truth while claiming he doesn't believe in it. He's like an athiest desperately trying to find God.
Garak's view on Bajorans wasn't all that different from the average Cardassian's view, even Dukat's. The real different between Garak and Dukat is that Garak actually lived among the Bajorans for years (and Federation citizens for an additional seven) while Dukat basically lorded over them during his time as prefect. Thus, Garak got to know many of the Bajorans, especially after the Cardassian withdrawal, and probably made friends with some of the more sympathetic members, while Dukat (no matter his claims), clearly enjoyed being "lord of his domain" and would always hold himself apart.
It's also telling that Dukat wanted the Bajorans to love him, and was always perplexed why they hated him (I'd go far to say that, as Nana Visitor has claimed of Kira, the Bajorans see Dukat as *the* face of the occupation). Garak, while certainly seeing himself and his race as "superior," never sought the Bajorans approval and held certainly no illusions that they would ever come to like him (though he did seem annoyed that, during one conference he attended, the Bajorans gave him a name tag calling him "Elim Garak, former occupier" - though that may just be Garak exaggerating, as usual).
While Garak still had that superior attitude toward the Bajorans, he was more interested in what was best for Cardassia while Dukat was more interested what was best for Dukat. While later on Dukat vows to destroy Bajor, Garak openly helps them. Garak always struck me as the type of man who enjoyed being a spy, he just didn't enjoy doing spy. If not for his father being the head of the Order, would Garak have even become a spy?
In his youth, his idealism could paint over his crimes and make himself believe he was indeed doing a greater good. But toward the end of the occupation I believe his conscious caught up with him and he refused to go along with it anymore. And so instead of just executing Garak, as he would do any other operative, Tain exiled him. The father could not kill his own son.
Garak always struck me as the type of man who enjoyed being a spy, he just didn't enjoy doing spy. If not for his father being the head of the Order, would Garak have even become a spy?
Funny, I always thought Garak was pretty unapologetic, even wistful, about his days as an Obsidian Order agent. Yes, he always deflected questions and actions about his days with the Order, but I always got the impression that was as much about survival as it was about him trying to maintain a "mysterious air." After all, if you were a spy/assassin responsible for the deaths of countless notable figures in various interstellar powers, would you admit to them if you knew there was a very high chance some of their counteragents might look you up?
Paranoid is what you call people who think they have threats against their lives; I have threats against my life.
Garak does finally realize what his people's desire for conquest has cost them towards the end of the series, but (not having read "A Stitch in Time"), I would think Garak would still look fondly on his Obsidian Order days and would *never* apologize for anything he did. True, he may not have gone into the spy business if not for the influence of his father, but then, Garak never seemed to hold it against Tain. Besides, it wasn't as if there were too many choices for an upwardly mobile career on Cardassia outside the military and the Order (yes, there were others, but but real power lay either in the Central Command or the Obsidian Order; everyone else was under the heal of one of both entites).
I will agree with you about the significant difference between Dukat and Garak on their motivations. While both claimed to be doing what was best for Cardassia, for Dukat, the claim was merely a line to hide his true ambitions (if Dukat didn't become as hated on Cardassia as he was on Bajor, it'd be surprising). Garak, however, believed it, meant it, and at least tried to live it; no doubt the animosity between Dukat and Garak was in part because Garak saw through Dukat's act and took every opportunity he could to point it out (and, if Garak's statement in "Civil Defense" is any indication, Dukat may have inherited his nerosis from his father).
A great insight into Garak would be Andrew Robinson's book "A Stitch In Time". It happens almost immediately after the last episode of DS9. Great insights about the characters past written by the man who has the greatest insight into the character, one of the best DS9 novels out there!
I don't think he knew Bashir was genetically modified but I do think he decided to invest in developing a familiarity with Bashir in order to get the inside track on things. From reading "A Stitch in Time", a novel about Garak's life, written by Andrew J. Robinson (the actor himself), Garak has always had an exceptional eye to see and exploit to his advantage the bigger picture.
You know, for a character that was beyond embarrassing the first season, Bashir ended up with the most interpersonal relationships (Dax, O'Brien, Garak). I must say that Bashir and Dax sort of swapped places as the series went one. The character growth of Bashir was amazing while Dax went from computer lab nerd to blond cheerleader.
But I will say to this day, when I'm just browsing for a DS9 episode to watch, I always look for Garak-related episodes.
A great insight into Garak would be Andrew Robinson's book "A Stitch In Time". It happens almost immediately after the last episode of DS9. Great insights about the characters past written by the man who has the greatest insight into the character, one of the best DS9 novels out there!
That's an interesting idea, and considering his Obsidian Order past, I wouldn't put it past him, but I know that the genetic engineering was thought up specifically for Dr. Bashir, I presume, so from a RL perspective it wasn't planned that way.
That's an interesting idea, and considering his Obsidian Order past, I wouldn't put it past him, but I know that the genetic engineering was thought up specifically for Dr. Bashir, I presume, so from a RL perspective it wasn't planned that way.
From a RL perspective there was no changeling controlled Dominion either. Intent or otherwise, what we know know if Bashir was always genetically enhanced.
No, because I don't think the writers themselves "knew", and therefore there's no way a character could be written by them to have knowledge they themselves lacked.
No, because I don't think the writers themselves "knew", and therefore there's no way a character could be written by them to have knowledge they themselves lacked.
That just shows you how good he was at hiding it if the writers couldn't figure it out.
My problem with that position is you destroy all character growth of any character if it wasn't predetermined ahead of time. And whether predetermined or not, a lot of Bashir's early season inconsistencies made more sense if you look at it through the prism of being genetically enhance: being able to destroy the harvesters, cure a Dominion created disease, survive the aforementioned Lethean mental attack, the lack of anyone on Earth he wanted Odo to look into, the fact he abandoned a tennis career despite obviously being good enough to go professional.
Honestly, if the writers knew they'd have probably messed up trying to hide it.
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Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
Garak was bisexual during the initial performances but latter altered due to studio pressure, if I recall.
I always thought that Garek honed in on Bashir because he was lonely and he thought Bashir was the least prejudiced and softest of the senior officers. They also both worked on the promenade.
Bashir had to play dumb to hide his genetics and seemed to have taken it a bit far in the beginning. But Garak saw through that and saw a man faking idiocy and tried to pull him out. Garak knew there was more to the man than beeing greener than the Hulk. Why else would he even be able to fight off a 99.9999999999999999999% fatal Lethian attack? Garak's a man who speaks in riddle and likes mind exercises. What better than a genetically enhanced human to not only test his verbal skills, but his mental ones as well?
Bashir was faking his abilities; but only someone as observant as Garak would realize it is just an act.
I think Bashir also seemed like a smart but lonely guy to Garak.
This is also likely. It's one of the quickest way of ruining an intelligence operation--it's akin to walking up to a monitoring van and offering donuts to the kind officers inside.
Might be possible.
I think its very likley that Garak recognized SOMETHING about Bashir. May be just that there is more to Bashir then it seems superficial. May be just that he is smarter then it seems... may be that he is hiding something... may be there ARE any signs (in behavior or some other way) that indicate "geneticly enhencements" and Garak picked those.
But something must have been there.
Garak was the one who "initiatet" the friendship... why else should someone like Garak bother about a freindship with an avarage Starflleet Doctor? There are for sure MANY other "intresting" people on a place like DS9.
as far as Garak goes the actor basically came straight out and said as far as he was concerned the character was omnisexual and he played Garak as most defiantly "camp" at certain times...i mean come on he's a tailor ffs...
as for what "canon" may be on the subject who can say but the fact remains that in the minds of the writers at the time there was no genetic engineering for Garak or Bashir to know about when that relationship was initially written, initiated and filmed.
so basically sorry folks but if you think you are seeing little tells and suchlike in their to and fro it has nothing to do with the (at the time non existent) genetic engineering of Bashir.
and it probably has more to do with the fact Garak was flirting with him...just a little :P
Being a huge fan of both DS9 and Sherlock Holmes for many years, I've noticed that Garak and Bashirs' relationship has a lot of similarities to that of Holmes an Watson. It's in the conversations, the interactions. There's even an instance where Garak wakes Bashir in the middle of the night, which in the way it's shot and directed (accidental or intentional), appears exactly as happens in one of the Holmes adventures.
Also, he might have found him refreshing, as Bashir was naive and romantic - and Garak lost that a long time ago.
As I said earlier, this isn't from a real world perspective. Retcon or not, the fact of the matter is Bashir was genetically enhanced at this time even if we knew nothing about it. This is a discussion from an in-universe perspective. Go watch SFDebris's review of Dr Bashir, I Presume. In it he states that having Dr Bashir be genetically enhanced actually clears up a lot of character inconsistencies. So again, I'm not looking at this from a TV standpoint, but from within the Star Trek universe itself.
So from the beginning we have the sexually ambiguous spy talking to the green genius. Two men basically trying too hard to hide the truth about themselves. Why else would Bashir choose what was supposed to be a hole-in-the-wall assignment when he could have picked any assignment he wanted? He could live out his career with little fear of being caught. Of course, that changed when the wormhole was found and he work caught the attention of Lewis Zimmerman.
The could have something to do with it. Garak's attitude toward the Bajoran's was definitely counter of that of Dukat's. Perhaps Garak was appalled at the occupation in a sense that it distracted Cardassia from its true enemies or perhaps he did feel clean in the persecution of genuinely innocent people. Garak is a contradiction; a man in the desperate search for truth while claiming he doesn't believe in it. He's like an athiest desperately trying to find God.
While it is a nice explaination, I think it was a rather minor consideration. Bashir has said on multiple occassions that DS9 was the assignment he wanted, a post on the "edge of the frontier." If he'd been THAT concerned about his background being discovered, I think he would have put in for a transfer the first chance he had once the wormhole was discovered and DS9's importance jumped from some isolated backwater to a major transportation hub.
Bashir was doing pretty well hiding his genetically enhanced background for a good 25 years (more or less). The only reason it came to light was a) Zimmerman was doing a *thorough* background check and b) his parents were stupid enough to reveal his secret in a public area instead somewhere more private (never mind the "Bashir" they were talking to was a hologram).
Garak's view on Bajorans wasn't all that different from the average Cardassian's view, even Dukat's. The real different between Garak and Dukat is that Garak actually lived among the Bajorans for years (and Federation citizens for an additional seven) while Dukat basically lorded over them during his time as prefect. Thus, Garak got to know many of the Bajorans, especially after the Cardassian withdrawal, and probably made friends with some of the more sympathetic members, while Dukat (no matter his claims), clearly enjoyed being "lord of his domain" and would always hold himself apart.
It's also telling that Dukat wanted the Bajorans to love him, and was always perplexed why they hated him (I'd go far to say that, as Nana Visitor has claimed of Kira, the Bajorans see Dukat as *the* face of the occupation). Garak, while certainly seeing himself and his race as "superior," never sought the Bajorans approval and held certainly no illusions that they would ever come to like him (though he did seem annoyed that, during one conference he attended, the Bajorans gave him a name tag calling him "Elim Garak, former occupier" - though that may just be Garak exaggerating, as usual).
In his youth, his idealism could paint over his crimes and make himself believe he was indeed doing a greater good. But toward the end of the occupation I believe his conscious caught up with him and he refused to go along with it anymore. And so instead of just executing Garak, as he would do any other operative, Tain exiled him. The father could not kill his own son.
Funny, I always thought Garak was pretty unapologetic, even wistful, about his days as an Obsidian Order agent. Yes, he always deflected questions and actions about his days with the Order, but I always got the impression that was as much about survival as it was about him trying to maintain a "mysterious air." After all, if you were a spy/assassin responsible for the deaths of countless notable figures in various interstellar powers, would you admit to them if you knew there was a very high chance some of their counteragents might look you up?
Garak does finally realize what his people's desire for conquest has cost them towards the end of the series, but (not having read "A Stitch in Time"), I would think Garak would still look fondly on his Obsidian Order days and would *never* apologize for anything he did. True, he may not have gone into the spy business if not for the influence of his father, but then, Garak never seemed to hold it against Tain. Besides, it wasn't as if there were too many choices for an upwardly mobile career on Cardassia outside the military and the Order (yes, there were others, but but real power lay either in the Central Command or the Obsidian Order; everyone else was under the heal of one of both entites).
I will agree with you about the significant difference between Dukat and Garak on their motivations. While both claimed to be doing what was best for Cardassia, for Dukat, the claim was merely a line to hide his true ambitions (if Dukat didn't become as hated on Cardassia as he was on Bajor, it'd be surprising). Garak, however, believed it, meant it, and at least tried to live it; no doubt the animosity between Dukat and Garak was in part because Garak saw through Dukat's act and took every opportunity he could to point it out (and, if Garak's statement in "Civil Defense" is any indication, Dukat may have inherited his nerosis from his father).
But I will say to this day, when I'm just browsing for a DS9 episode to watch, I always look for Garak-related episodes.
I'll have to pick that book up.
From a RL perspective there was no changeling controlled Dominion either. Intent or otherwise, what we know know if Bashir was always genetically enhanced.
That just shows you how good he was at hiding it if the writers couldn't figure it out.
My problem with that position is you destroy all character growth of any character if it wasn't predetermined ahead of time. And whether predetermined or not, a lot of Bashir's early season inconsistencies made more sense if you look at it through the prism of being genetically enhance: being able to destroy the harvesters, cure a Dominion created disease, survive the aforementioned Lethean mental attack, the lack of anyone on Earth he wanted Odo to look into, the fact he abandoned a tennis career despite obviously being good enough to go professional.
Honestly, if the writers knew they'd have probably messed up trying to hide it.