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Traits - Gorn/Orion Male/Andorian

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
This is a summary of the last thread with updates from the recent trait changes: http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=227659

A few simple tweaks -
Gorn
- Forced to take 3 traits, They are never gonna be good in space (remove Resilient and 'Basic' Reptillian Strength as Core)

Orion Male
- Whats the point of Orion male? Who wants +10% melee compared to 15% or 18%
(Give em mental discipline Core instead to help survive the females)

Andorian
- remove Acute Senses and give Cold Dwelling as Core

Lethean
- Raptures CD is very long

Liberated Borg
- Neural Blasts no longer fun add some Psychic/Radiation damage maybe.

For those who would not like these changes because of Canon, well... Logically speaking some Gorn might be born a little weaker, but be useable by more than 1 career.

But Thank You Cryptic for making Bite useful again, just make sure that Gorn doesn't get into a ship.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Well Stalfos, at least they made the Ferengi a little better with that Lobes update to traits. My problem with Traits it that they do not progres, and there is no way to retrain them. As it stands, I have characters whose traits did they great justice in elite stf's and pvp. Ever since Crossfire, those ground traits are garbage. As the game keeps changing we're forced to keep what we started with regardless. Since they are working on fixing the Space and Ground skills, I'd really like them to take a look at games like DDO and copy the way their Perks work. Essentially, give us something we can build within our characters to differentiate them from the next guy.

    As a side note Stalfos, I still think one of the Nausicaans traits should include some kind of crazy form of toughness at least on par with what Klingons get. They play a game involving throwing knives at each others chest. Pound for pound they seem to be as tough as any Klingon, though they appear in the series to be far more disorganized.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Lethean would be very fun to play if there were no cd and no random stun on rapture. Actually it's another useless trait.
    And for gorns, merge reptilian strenght, cold blooded and resilient into reptilian aptitudes (like caitans feline aptitudes).

    PS : sorry for bad english.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Yeah DodgeHopper old friend, it would be nice for some scaling traits, say starts at half at lvl 1 scales to full at 51. Problem is as always too complicated to implement for the moment because they busy with Free to Play

    Merging Gorn traits into 1 is a good idea maybe i wouldn't merge too much into 1, because that would make it have too many bonuses. Just Reptiliian and Cold Blooded since it only helps in rare situations (Exothermic/Plasma Grenades).

    Reptillian Biped:
    +17.5% Physical Strength and Knockback
    +25% Fire Resistance
    +10% Plasma DoT Resistance

    Resilient can always be a choice, and I would never pick it - doesn't scale well and the Klingon version is far superior
    PS : sorry for bad english.
    Good English, only mispelt strength
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Actually I kinda seems that Cold Blooded is really weak anyway, fire is rarely used and 10% Plasma DoT is way too weak.. its not like you'd survive even 10% longer in a plasma Grenade due to dimishing returns since you'd have Plasma damage resistance which includes DoT.

    I think a good fix for this would be to change Plasma DoT to fire damage, and then the fire resistance is enough.

    Then if Cold Blooded got like 20% root resistance or something similar.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    cool, thanks for info
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Someone mentioned that they used Rigelian recently, and of course the first thing i ask is why?

    Spirit Walk is another trait with a ridiulously long CD, along with Lethean's Rapture.

    Also Dumb Luck - You sacrifice so much for 1% extra Crtiical Chance over Lucky:
    -3% expose chance
    -30% resistance to Confuse, Placate etc.
    -Other trait choices for picking Pakled

    And that's just for captain, who wouldn't prefer superior lucky on a Bridge Officer?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    I've got a Rigelian with Spirit Walk. The Cooldown is kind of bad, but then so are the cooldowns on many things given the new pace of ground combat... not sure what to say about that really.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    I agree that there should be a way to change the preset abilities of a race, even if it is a <sigh> C-store item.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    I'd rather see the Traits become more of something you can grow and develop, and possibly pick up from your DOFFS/BOFFS. I imagine something with a branching set of trees, requiring one trait to get the next higher trait in an array of choices. It might not work with what Cryptic has in mind, but it would certainly be a lot of fun to make our characters unique that way. It might also allow people to really put points into say 'Bite' to make it more useful and effective, or to spread out their abilities to be a little elusive, a little accurate, a little lucky, etc. Plenty of other games use a system somewhat like this, and I think it'd be a lot of fun. The pools captains could draw from would be from the Starfleet, Klingon, Captain, and Racial variety.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    To some extent you can do that with Pounce on the Caitian, since it was essentially Lunge.
    That was only for Tactical captains though and when they revamp the ground skills that might change. When they revamp ground skills thats when they'd have a chance to change this.


    As far as cooldowns go, they reduced the Gorn Bite to 15 seconds recently, but left Lethean's Rapture with 3 minutes and Rigelian's Spirit Walk at 3 minutes 30, which is even more useless.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    I think Bite was down to 15 seconds already pre s4 and after that it got a small nerf.

    But a retrait option and some adaptions of the ground racial skills due fast pace combat is needed.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Yeah retrait is something we've been needing for a while, since many times I have got to Endgame to have my traits nerfed, making me wanna delete and restart. I quite enjoy restarting now and then anyway, but it would be nice to have the respec option there.

    Yeah the faster pace of combat brought in Season 4 does merit many changes to traits, It's nice they improved Bite, but at the same time there was the nerf to Borg Neural Blast.

    Traits like Resilient are now even more useless IMO, since dimishing returns at endgame give very little. Maybe if Resilient gave 10% resistance to energy weapons and no physical resist, and Sturdy gave 15% Phyical/Kinetic/Knockback. Along with this if they included a skill that boosts these a little with the ground skill revamp.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Consider also that all Peak Health does give now is +50 HP, which is nothing when you have an Elite Tactical Soldier burst firing you on Elite mode. As far as the cooldowns go, I resort to my continuous suggestion that we be able to improve our traits. Maybe someone doesn't want as powerful a Rapture, Spirit Walk, Vulcan Neck Pinch or Seduction... maybe someone else does. Giving us a way to GROW these abilities over time or even pick up something else and spread the wealth around... that's a great idea. The idea I propose would offer even more character specialization, and really help us all be unique from one another, without having to pick up gimped abilities. Likewise, powers like Rapture have really bad scaling. They're wonderful early on, but do next to nothing at cap level other than have a cool name and style. I'd even be fine with Gorn starting out having all their 3 innate Ground Traits, if we could later on flesh out our character as we level up with Captain oriented traits, possibly even split between Space and Ground. Ie: Level 5 is Space Traits, Level 10 Ground Traits, Level 15 Space Trait, Level 20 Ground trait, and so forth. Each of these traits would represent less punch than what exists currently, thereby allowing someone to have a little bit of more things, or a greater focus in others. This system would also enforce a sense of balance on characters, which is what the Splitting of Ground and Space pools is intended to do.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Attaching skills to each trait would be a way to do this without too much of an overhaul: It's many of the ground traits that need the most attention and the ground skill updates are yet to come.

    On the other hand many people that have gone for the space skill bonus traits like Efficient and Astrophysicist may no longer be happy with their choice, since the skills may no longer be appropriate to their favourite ship class.

    Accurate and Elusive kinda already have skills that add to accuracy and defense, so maybe just give owners of these traits a little more for speccing into the skills as well.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Captain Geko has posted about the upcoming ground skill revamp and hopefully he might consider updating some ground traits at the same time.
    http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3911764#post3911764
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Actually it would be pretty awesome if skills could in some way enhance player traits. Even so I'd still like the Trait system to be a little more advanced. It might never happen, but it is something I would personally like. I like having a lot of differentiating factors for characters, so that we are not all cookie cutter builds.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    I think it's something they may consider later on when F2P settles down a bit.

    I think it's the KDF in particular that are in need of improvements, there are about half the species to choose from and very few I would actually use. Gorn as I mentioned shouldn't be forced into being ground specialised characters, since with the upcoming ground skill revamp they are trying to stop people for putting all their skills into just space or ground.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    I personally don't want to see more species added to the Klingon defense force, and I'm hoping when the Romulan faction comes out, they don't bog it down with too many races that aren't Romulan or Reman (yeah yeah and Hirogen I guess). With the Dominion, I could see potentially some of the True way Cardassians, Founders, Jem hadar, Breen and Vorta. The thing is, I'd almost rather have the Cardassians be their own small sub faction, and the same could be said of the Breen. After what the Founders did in the Dominion war, I simply don't see them being buddies with the Breen or the Cardies anymore.

    Even so, I feel if they add more depth to the trait system itself it would solve your Gorn problem, specifically because people could start spending those 'trait points' in other ways outside their initial few points that are FORCED into ground on the Gorn. No one has really liked being pigeonholed the way the Gorn have, but it is the way it is unfortunately, and if you want Bite, that fills out the list.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    I think the KDF would have enough species in fact if there was anything appealing about the existing species.

    Orion Male could be improved with a Smuggler Trait, giving 20% discount to EC/ GPL shops like the Ferengi.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    That's kind of interesting. Smuggler, I didn't think of that. You know what though Stalfos, I think it should somehow be different from what the Ferengi gets, just for uniqueness... but perhaps similar?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Yeah it should be different in what the combat bonus is given, but have the same Discount to EC and GPL stores, say for example they get a version of Stubborn but with the discount.

    They gotta be stubborn to survive the Orion females I guess.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Stalfos wrote: »
    Andorian[/B]
    - remove Acute Senses and give Cold Dwelling as Core

    Liberated Borg [/B]
    - Neural Blasts no longer fun add some Psychic/Radiation damage maybe.

    Why change the Andorian traits? Cold Dwelling is already available for an Andorian character so making it a starting trait makes no sense; as a starting trait then Acute Senses is by far the more useful skill as the passive buff to stealth sight and exploit damage are always there , whereas Cold Dwelling is more useful for PvP characters where the resistance to holds and roots is going to actually be used. For PvE you're so infrequently rooted or exposed to Cold damage that it would be wasted.
    The Neural Blast is also still useful, although it no longer stuns as often as it used to it can really mess with someone who has no stun resistance traits (or NPCs), the longish cooldown makes little difference to it either as a shorter cooldown would leave the NPC/ other player with a constant resist to the next attack.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Passive buff to Stealth sight I find is rarely useful in PvE, there are only really the Jem'Hadar that cloak, and some Romulan Commanders that use Smoke Bombs, - I don't see it helping much against them anyway.

    I don't find +10% exploit damage hugely useful since Season 4, since by the time you've got an enemy exposed any fairly weak expose attack would finish them off anyway.

    Also I find the Borg Root alot and Run Speed Resistance from Cold Dwelling useful in even more situtations, but a major problem with Acute Senses as a core trait, you can easily end up with a trait selection no different from Alien.

    Fury I think is only useful for certain character builds so the other unique Andorian trait: Cold Dwelling would be ideal as a core instead, I would pick it for any character over Acute Senses.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Stalfos wrote: »
    Passive buff to Stealth sight I find is rarely useful in PvE, there are only really the Jem'Hadar that cloak, and some Romulan Commanders that use Smoke Bombs, - I don't see it helping much against them anyway.

    I don't find +10% exploit damage hugely useful since Season 4, since by the time you've got an enemy exposed any fairly weak expose attack would finish them off anyway.

    Also I find the Borg Root alot and Run Speed Resistance from Cold Dwelling useful in even more situtations, but a major problem with Acute Senses as a core trait, you can easily end up with a trait selection no different from Alien.

    Fury I think is only useful for certain character builds so the other unique Andorian trait: Cold Dwelling would be ideal as a core instead, I would pick it for any character over Acute Senses.

    Acute Senses is useful for ground PvP too as it helps to spot cloaked Tactical officers, especially in Otha where they like to sneak up from behind.It won't help a lot if they're traited for stealth but it will usually give you time to get a couple of buffs up as they approach assuming the camera isn't zoomed right in on the character.
    The Borg roots aren't as bad as they were and are easily manageable now. TBH, most of my Andorian's have Cold Dwelling anyway and the resistance to roots from the Borg is minimal. It helps for resisting player roots but the Borg roots are much stronger and the resistance doesn't do much other than to make the root an incredibly powerful slow instead.
    The Alien selection is also not entirely accurate. Yes, you can make an Andorian with some of the more common Alien traits but if you were making an Alien then you'd be better off with Acute Senses, Lucky, Soldier and Telepathic than anything you can create with an Andorian; as with all the races the Andorian's are limited in what they can do and if you're going for maximum effectiveness then an Alien with four other traits will usually be more suitable, especially for a damage dealer as a lot of the Andorian traits are defensive.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    The point I was making with Aliens, is that if you don't pick Cold Dwelling or Fury as Andorian, it's a trait build you can have with Alien and yes it would have less choice than Alien.

    I think there's the same problem with Orion Male, but Physical Strength is useful in even fewer circumstances. I play melee Sci often enough in STFs, but I still wouldn't pick Orion Male since the Klingon and Gorn traits have better bonuses anyway.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Another point I forgot to mention is that some species Bridge Officers have different traits to the captains, such as Saurian Boffs having Basic Reptillian Strength instead of Acute Senses.

    Also Bolians, while having a unique trait still seem worthless since that trait is very rarely useful. Even if bitten by a Gorn it doesn't protect by that much with diminishing returns and the feedback damage to the Gorn is gonna be minimal like a tooth for an arm.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Stalfos wrote: »
    The point I was making with Aliens, is that if you don't pick Cold Dwelling or Fury as Andorian, it's a trait build you can have with Alien and yes it would have less choice than Alien.

    I think there's the same problem with Orion Male, but Physical Strength is useful in even fewer circumstances. I play melee Sci often enough in STFs, but I still wouldn't pick Orion Male since the Klingon and Gorn traits have better bonuses anyway.

    I just don't see why that's a problem. I have 7 (or maybe 8, I can't remember now) Andorian's and they have different combinations of traits based on what I want them to do but ultimately the traits aren't all that important. The main reason I can think of for Andorian's (and Trill too, they're even easier to make with an Alien but the Aliens don't get the spots on the legs for Females) is to get people to actually play them. If you restricted the traits to the less desirable racial traits such as Fury then no one would play them and instead use Aliens that look like them (I have a KDF Alien that looks like an Andorian and other than the skin tone being a little off compared to what I used on my proper Andorian's you would think it was an actual Andorian).
    The Acute Senses is a useful and fitting trait anyway, an Andorian's antennae are said to give them acute senses so a useful trait in game is a good compromise whereas forcing them all to take Cold Dwelling or Fury, which are situational at best and outright inferior at worst is not a great idea IMO.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Militis wrote: »
    ultimately the traits aren't all that important.

    Well for me the traits are the most important thing about a character. To get people like me to use a species, the traits would have to be worthwhile and not available on alien with better choices.

    Yeah Fury is situational and outright inferior, I do actually have an Andorian Engineer in the hope that one day Fury will be boosted.

    How about if Cold Dwelling gave either +10% exploit damage OR +10 perception and was made core instead, I think that would be a reasonable compromise and would make Andorian more appealing and canon.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    Fury, like many things about ground combat simply needs an overhaul. I could spend pages talking about the adjustments I feel the game needs for ground combat (or even space combat) but for the sake of brevity I'll keep to topic here. Fury needs to give the Andorian a baseline damage boost at all damage levels, and have it increase to be anywhere near useful. The problem with the trait itself is the entire nature of combat changed COMPLETELY with season 4 (Crossfire). Crossfire added a new way to target people, but it also completely changed ground combat forever. I doubt many people noticed, but Ground Pvp was hurt significantly by the changes. Ground PVP'ers were not a large crowd so it was probably considered not a big deal, but that's a false assumption. Ground PVP'ers represented those people who enjoyed the ground combat game, so it tells you something when they aren't really playing.

    The reason is quite simple. Death happens far too quickly in combat now, and the Attack and Counter system, along with Cooldowns for all powers and Devices no longer make sense in the new combat pacing. Many powers in kits themselves (particularly for Tactical Officers) or with Hypos and Shield Charges take far too long to activate and far too long to be usable again. Additionally in the case of hypos, you have to essentially jam them all the time if you're a Tac officer, because only 1/100 Scientists can actually heal you with some skill. Furthermore, those same Hypos do next to nothing in the way of helping you... ever. Not only were their healing values destroyed in Season 4, but in Season 5 the anti-debuff properties they use to have were shunted off to some new Borg Devices we can earn in the STF's. Additionally, because you need so many of these hypos, jamming them all the time, inventory is stuffed with the garbage items that barely serve any purpose. Its a pretty sad state of affairs when things like Tribbles and Hortas and a Winter Candy are more interesting than using a Hypo.

    It has irritated me for a long time that the Traits of a Bridge Officer can be more interesting and better than the Captain. Captains are supposed to be legendary. Now we have Traits that the Duty Officers have which likewise seem to show up Captains. My proposal is that a deeper, richer Trait system be put in place down the road that can develop as our character develops. Ideally it would be a system of Branching Specializations and uniquenesses with General Captain Traits that would be in a pool usable by all (Ie: Traits like Leadership, Elusive, Accurate, etc just seem to beg for general use). Additionally, at the top end some strange traits might even make their way at the 'Vice admiral' level. For example, Captain Archer had the ability to Mind Meld, and Kirk had the ability to do the Nerve Pinch. While certainly uncommon, they would be ways that set apart a captain from his crew, should those traits be wanted. Additionally, it would be nice to find a way to make abilities like Vulcan Mind Melding and Lethean rapture better with training nor skills, and somehow find a way to scale them up so that they're not useless at the high levels.

    Ultimately the biggest problem I have with Traits right now though, is the entire problem with Ground Combat's lack of ANY semblance of balance anymore. If they bring that back, it will be a lot easier to adjust the Traits. Until then though its all just a big waste of time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    What would be nice is if decisions made in missions gave us different accolades/traits maybe that gave different bonuses - Like in Suspect you can side with Section 31 or the Captain of the ship. Also in that Borg mission you can let the Romulans leave with their Borg Technology or kill them.

    Also being able to upgrade 1 or 2 of your traits to superior during progression would be great.
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