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Skill System: A Different Direction

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
It's agreed on the forums that we are still pretty pigeon holed with this new skill system. I can't fully spec the way I used to. Lots of others have already discussed this all at length, but lets create other choices to use up skill points instead of jacking up the required skill point cost for survivability and forcing hard decisions that are just crappy.

I remember reading that skill point costs where doubled to keep things 'right' <- for lack of researching why and re-explaining it. How about undoing that and creating a new tier of generic convenience skills to blow your points on at the end.

Such as:
A skill that reduces Transwarp cooldown
A skill that increases slipstream time
A skill that increases your running speed out of combat
A skill that increases your range to interact
A skill that could net you 5 more reserve DOff Slots
A skill that lets you refine an extra 100 Dilithium for each point spent

I can't think of any more right now... but the idea is to make the end tier skills sinks for cool stuff that makes things more fun or easier and do not affect combat or survivability. Everyone should be able to almost fully spec into current tactical and engineering sections by the time they hit VA. Right now, if I do not ignore ground skills... I can spec like 65% which is ridiculous.

Make us choose over how we like to play with regard to special powers and stupid stuff, not skills that mean life or death in the captains chair....
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Every single one you just listed is pointless fluff and wouldnt be skilled in. Those kind of 'skills' would be the kind you gain naturally in the game via traits, ranking up or even tied to the existing skills to make them more interesting.

    The only way those kind of skills would work is if STO adopts EVE Online's system of TIME cost. That way if someone wants to waste x hours / days / months training to run faster they are more than welcome too while everyone else devotes the same time to making their ship hit harder or survive more.

    Of course, under EVE Online's system one could max out every skill eventually in STO and there certainly isnt enough skills to match EVE Online's 30 year + requirement to do so.

    Allow folks to max out every skill = Problem of the skill system goes away entirely. Then it comes down to what you have equiped and how you use it.

    Oh wait, I forgot STO players cant handle this because it removes variety :rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    I have found the new skill tree is designed to not allow all players to be good at all things at one time.
    So in order to make a good build under the new system one must sacrifice some skills to boost others, have a working understanding of equipment and how it helps certains stats/skills, character traits that can help and even some DOff missions that give bonuses to help shore up weaker skilled areas.
    Give it time and even these level of design thought will become easier, especially as the FOTM builds start to arrive and new Skill Planners are rolled-out.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Roach wrote: »
    I have found the new skill tree is designed to not allow all players to be good at all things at one time.

    Except now we cant be good at ANYTHING let alone everything.

    Sure if you are tactical and want to do max dps in an escort you can just about spec into what you need.

    Science in a cruiser (what I fly most of the time) no chance. You have to take some basic dps skills or you do no damage at all. Then you have to take tanking skills for either shields or hull. I chose Hull. Then you have to take skills that effect your cruiser skills. i.e efficiency, warp core training, performance skills. Ok you can get most of them. Then you need skills to improve your captain abilites. i.e. sensor scan, dampening field, (target shields subsystems in my case). Oh wait no points left. Cant get any of that.

    The horrible nerf this skill tree is to science is unbelievable. Ok I managed to avoid loseing a significant amount of dps. However my Sensor Scan went from -67 damage resistance to -47 and my target shields subsystem drain went from -62 to -40. Absolutly rediculous.

    Change the skill point costs back and remove the "you must spend X points in this tier to unlock the next tier" rubbish. Then maybe we can get some build variety.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Korhil wrote:
    Except now we cant be good at ANYTHING let alone everything.

    Sure if you are tactical and want to do max dps in an escort you can just about spec into what you need.
    I disagree, though it has always been easiest to play the Tac in STO becuase being a fighter (for lack a better definition) has always been the simple route of any MMO.
    Even then to maximize the Damage output as much as possible and still have good defenses, one must sacrifice something. I chose the CC defensive skills and Stealth skill.
    So now I have a build almost identical to my holodeck Tac, except now I'm weaker towards CC.
    I have also found that trhe use of equipement plays a big part in shoring up weakness left by sacrifice in the skill tree.
    Science in a cruiser (what I fly most of the time) no chance. You have to take some basic dps skills or you do no damage at all. Then you have to take tanking skills for either shields or hull. I chose Hull. Then you have to take skills that effect your cruiser skills. i.e efficiency, warp core training, performance skills. Ok you can get most of them. Then you need skills to improve your captain abilites. i.e. sensor scan, dampening field, (target shields subsystems in my case). Oh wait no points left. Cant get any of that.
    Now we must choose to sacrifice somethings and shore them back up via equipment.
    I've made a science build very close to my Holodeck one with no unforseen loss of ability and do not agree that they (once again) have been the only ones to get the shortest end of a smelly stick.

    Tier 1
    SS Weapons training: 9
    SS Batteries: 9
    SS Hull Repair: 9
    SS Flow Capacitor: 9
    SS Shield Emitters: 9
    Assualt Training: 0
    Close Combat training: 0
    Away Team Leader: Engineer: 0
    Away team Leader: Science: 0
    Away team Leader: Tactical: 0

    Tier 2

    SS Energy Weapons: 9
    SS Projectile Weapons: 9
    Structual Integrity: 5
    SS Subsystem Repair: 0
    SS Warp Core efficiency: 9
    SS Power Insulator: 0
    SS Shield systems: 8
    Security: 0
    Soldier: 0
    Special Forces: 0

    Tier 3

    SS Maneuavers: 5
    SS Target systems: 5
    SS Electro-Plasma systems: 5
    SS Impulse Thrusters: 6
    SS Warp Core Potential: 9
    SS Graviton Generators: 6
    SS Particle Generators: 6
    FireArms: 0
    Grenades: 0
    Martial Arts: 0

    Tier 4

    SS Attack Patterns: 0
    SS Stealth: 0
    SS Engine Performance: 9
    SS Hull Plating: 9
    SS Shield Performance: 9
    SS Intertial Dampeners: 0
    SS Sensors: 0
    Stealth: 0
    Tactics: 0
    Threat Control: 0

    Tier 5

    SS Energy Weapon Specialization: 4
    SS Projectile Weapon Specialization: 4
    SS Armor Reinforcments: 0
    SS Auxullary Performance: 5
    SS Weapons Performance: 4
    SS Counter Measure Systems: 4
    SS Subspace Decompiler: 4
    Advanced Warfare: 0
    Close combat Protection: 0
    Squad Command: 0

    or

    Tier 1

    SS Weapons training: 9
    SS Batteries: 9
    SS Hull Repair: 9
    SS Flow Capacitor: 9
    SS Shield Emitters: 9
    Assualt Training: 0
    Close Combat training: 0
    Away Team Leader: Engineer: 0
    Away team Leader: Science: 0
    Away team Leader: Tactical: 0

    Tier 2

    SS Energy Weapons: 8
    SS Projectile Weapons: 8
    Structual Integrity: 8
    SS Subsystem Repair: 0
    SS Warp Core efficiency: 8
    SS Power Insulator: 0
    SS Shield systems: 8
    Security: 0
    Soldier: 0
    Special Forces: 0

    Tier 3

    SS Maneuavers: 6
    SS Target systems: 6
    SS Electro-Plasma systems: 6
    SS Impulse Thrusters: 5
    SS Warp Core Potential: 5
    SS Graviton Generators: 6
    SS Particle Generators: 6
    FireArms: 0
    Grenades: 0
    Martial Arts: 0

    Tier 4

    SS Attack Patterns: 5
    SS Stealth: 0
    SS Engine Performance: 7
    SS Hull Plating: 8
    SS Shield Performance: 8
    SS Intertial Dampeners: 0
    SS Sensors: 0
    Stealth: 0
    Tactics: 0
    Threat Control: 0

    Tier 5

    SS Energy Weapon Specialization: 4
    SS Projectile Weapon Specialization: 4
    SS Armor Reinforcments: 3
    SS Auxullary Performance: 3
    SS Weapons Performance: 4
    SS Counter Measure Systems: 4
    SS Subspace Decompiler: 4
    Advanced Warfare: 0
    Close combat Protection: 0
    Squad Command: 0
    The horrible nerf this skill tree is to science is unbelievable. Ok I managed to avoid loseing a significant amount of dps. However my Sensor Scan went from -67 damage resistance to -47 and my target shields subsystem drain went from -62 to -40. Absolutly rediculous.
    They most likely nerfed Sensor Scan and Shield stripping to get players away from the high use of Science in PvP.
    In fact it seems they have nerfed all the classes in ways to slow combat down and make it less 50/50 in outcome.
    Change the skill point costs back and remove the "you must spend X points in this tier to unlock the next tier" rubbish. Then maybe we can get some build variety.
    I do agree that a change to the Tier requirements is needed, a lower change in fact . This would facilitate a wider spending of Points if the players wishes or a better spending of points to specialize if thats the route a player wishes to go.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    YO ! ROACH !

    I do believe that you have touched on one thing that is UNQUESTIONABLE ! The game has been s-l-o-w-e-d down......


    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


    :eek:

    almost too much. And for some old dude that ought ot tell them something!

    :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    to be honest:

    with this revamp, we will never have the possibilty to get to the same play-performance as we have now on Holodeck.

    If you wanna do this, you will come to the point, that there is absolute no way. even with all the buffs from DOFF-system. i spent about 10 Respecs (took a fresh maxed out toon from holodeck, completly geared, with some tokens left, and my new 600day reward token over to testserver), and tried it.

    the easiest way to revamp the skillsystem:
    The skillsystem we have now is good. But get away all this special vessel-skills in T5, and put them together in 1 single. For example Assaultcruiser, Starcruiser, Refit Cruiser,... >and make it a single skill, like in the other tiers> Admrial Cruiser. Or all the different escort-skills in Tier5..just make a single one, Admiral escort (or whatever the name should be) so you are able to fly all differnet ships in this special role you are specced in with same performance as before. So tired of beeing a Fleetescort pilot?? just switch to Defiant, without drawbacks.

    The question i still have: why you wanna try making the game more stupid/casual??? by taking away all kind of specialisation, you take away a lot of research, motivation to play and experience. you open the door for "THE-1-Build"...
    The options you have now on holodeck, forces you to think about your playstyle, to communicate with your fleetmates, to collect experience with your build, tweak your skill-setup step by step, until you reach your personal perfect setup. But therfore you have to specialize yourself and make sacrifices to other.

    but with the new skillsystem, i run into the thing:
    if i want to have the same (or close to) play-performance, i used to spec ALL tac skills for space without Stealth. So with the points left, i can't spent skillponts in the same way to boost the rest of my skills to the same efficient use. But on Holodeck, i can...while the live-system is more open for this.


    Final thought: All new stuff (Economy, STF-grinding, Skillsystem, pay-2-win-items,...) together added: If this goes live, even in an altered version, i will cancel my sub, delete the game from harddisk, and watch out for an other game to spend my/your money and time. This gimped casual grind-fest we are getting is not StarTrek anymore.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    biglcny wrote: »
    It's agreed on the forums that we are still pretty pigeon holed with this new skill system.

    I'd go the other way, the skills tree is so simplified that there's no real difference in the way the individual classes are specced. I have a Tac and a Sci VA on Tribble and they have the same spec as each other with the exception of the Sci using Sensors and the Tac Attack patterns and although I've only used them on STFs I've been able to use them in all three classes with little loss in effectiveness. I'm actually really torn because I switch ships very often so this is good for me, on the other hand however I'd really like the classes to feel more different than they do currently.
    Korhill wrote:
    Science in a cruiser (what I fly most of the time) no chance. You have to take some basic dps skills or you do no damage at all. Then you have to take tanking skills for either shields or hull. I chose Hull. Then you have to take skills that effect your cruiser skills. i.e efficiency, warp core training, performance skills. Ok you can get most of them. Then you need skills to improve your captain abilites. i.e. sensor scan, dampening field, (target shields subsystems in my case). Oh wait no points left. Cant get any of that.

    From what me and a fleet mate have been able to see very few if any of the Captain skills are actually affected by the skills you choose any more. Sensor Scan is affected but IIRC the debuff is no longer affected by points spent in Sensors, just the stealth sight. It can be increased by upping Aux power but not to the extent it could be buffed on Holodeck.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    OlBuzzard wrote:
    YO ! ROACH !

    I do believe that you have touched on one thing that is UNQUESTIONABLE ! The game has been s-l-o-w-e-d down......


    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


    :eek:

    almost too much. And for some old dude that ought ot tell them something!

    :D

    I agree, it may be too much.
    and many see it as tied to the "money grab" by Cryptic.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Roach wrote: »
    I agree, it may be too much.
    and many see it as tied to the "money grab" by Cryptic.

    I just hope that they are not ignoring someone like myself who choses not to be hot tempered when it comes to input. I often feel ignored by the Dev team since I don't come across with a flame thrower as a general rule.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    I have, so far, had the opposite reaction to the skill system. I have no problems sacrificing something for something else. My healer build was able to be nearly identical to Holodeck, and looking at a spreadsheet of all my values, nearly everything went up (except damage resistance, which I suspect is how I spent my points).

    Some things went up a little, some things went up A LOT! Overall, it makes my own build closer to what I imagined it.

    One thing that did go down (and is bugging the heck out of me) is Hazard Emitters. The difference between my two toons is ~500 hp of heal, that's not a small difference. This reinforces the weirdness of it being a Sci power when it's buffed by an engineering console and engineering skills.

    BTW, in my playing with various consoles if you're looking to boost shield skills, slot a Power Insulator console. It's handy.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    OlBuzzard wrote:
    I just hope that they are not ignoring someone like myself who choses not to be hot tempered when it comes to input. I often feel ignored by the Dev team since I don't come across with a flame thrower as a general rule.

    Trust me you don't want the lfamethrower attention iether, or to use the word muffin without a really good reason. :p
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