test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Some Hard Numbers on the New Skill Tree

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Okay, so here is my preliminary look at the revamped Space skill tree.

(TLDR summation in second post)

(Random side pet-peeve, they've misspelled Maneuvers in the UI, they've got it Maneavers)

I started this with the goal of being able to switch back and forth between Science and Cruiser ships without needing to respec, while essentially duplicating my current build. I knew going in that doing all 3 would be unlikely without too little spread over too much, but in my opinion 2/3 of the ships without worrying about it is a major step up.

For the build I have spent the minimum for each tier, and I left points in ground on the (perhaps untrue) assumption that when they separate out the ground and space trees they won't be adding any additional skill points.

TRIBBLE build

Tac Systems

7 Weapon Training, 7 Energy Weapons, 5 Maneuvers, 0 Attack Patterns, 3 Energy Weapon Specialization
7 Projectile Wep, 7 Targeting, 0 Stealth, 3 Projectile Wep Specialization

Eng Systems

0 Battery, 7 Structural Integrity, 5 EPS 6 Engine Performance, 6 Armor
6 Hull Rep 0 Sub-Sys repair, 7 Impulse 6 Hull Plating 6 Aux Performance
7 Efficiency 7 Warp Core 7 Shield Performance, 6 Weapon Performance

Science
6 Flow Cap 0 Insulators 0 Graviton 0 Internal dampeners 0 Countermeasures
7 Shield Em 7 Shield Sys 7 Particle 6 Sensors 2 Subspace Decomp

Science Officer
5 E/S/T away team leaders
5 Scientific Practice 5 Doctor 5 Physiology

My holodeck build barely changes between Galaxy-R and Intrepid-R (mostly because I don't worry about stripping science skills for Engineering when I have most already anyway, and I never put more than 7 points into any skill)

Holodeck Build


Starfleet Training
E/S/T leader
Attack Vectors, Combat Maneuvers, Battle Strategy
Starship Command, Cruiser/Sci t2-5

Energy Weapons
Weapon Training, Beam Weapons, Phaser

Projectile Weapons
Projectile Training, Torpedo, Quantum

Engineering Taining*
7 in ALL except Aux and Shield Maintenance (5) Syb Sys Repair, Engine and Weapon Maintenance (0)

Operations
Ops Training, Deflectors, emitters, Sensors, Sensor Array, Deflector Field, Hazard System, Sensor Probes

Sci Officer
Sci Practice, Doctor, Physiology

*Hull Repair is replaces by Astrometrics in the Intrepid Build


Obviously these aren't PvP centric builds (though I have used both in PvP, and at least not embarrassed myself) and not overly concerned with min-maxing. My goal is a good solid foundation for a variety of situations.


Glaring Problems:

I have next to nothing in resistance skills like countermeasures, meaning I'm a lot more vulnerable to things like energy siphon, target subsystems, etc. There simply wasn't anything left over for them and I couldn't justify the cost.

I'm still fairly limited with science offensive powers. Sure CPB will work great, as will the healing powers, but I'm TRIBBLE at a lot of others - and I especially don't like the 2 in Subspace Decompiler.

Then there is the biggie - nothing in Attack Patterns. That makes using Escorts especially stupid, even with little concern for PvP or min-maxing.

Batteries and Stealth, on the other hand, hardly seem worth the effort - especially when we look at the actual numbers. (i.e. actual difference Holodeck to Tribble with nothing in stealth is ~100 points for Mask Energy Signature 1)


Okay, lotta numbers coming up. 1st number is Galaxy on Tribble, 2nd is Galaxy on Holodeck, colored to show which came out ahead, red for Holodeck, blue for Tribble

Defense 60.7 % 63.8%

Hull HP 49,638 49,239
Hull Repair 163.2%/min 157.3%
Shield Strength 11,245 11,174
Resistances 23.2% 21.7%
Accuracy 13.6% 14.2%
Crit Chance 3.4% 5.3%
Crit Severity is 59.1% 80.3%
Speed 21.75 21.91
Turn Rate 9.2 deg/sec 9.5
Beam Array 831(665) 825(660)
Dual Beam 1,080(864) 1,073(858)
Quantum 4,879(574) 4,839(569)

Power Levels
118/100 118/100
68/40 70/40
53/25 54/25
61/35 61/35

Note that so far the differences are relatively minor either way, except with crit chance/severity, while power setting variations are negligible, and things like hit points and damage actually favor the Tribble build.

Same Thing, Intrepid-R on Tribble and Holodeck

Defense 63.1% 65.1%
Hull HP 34,364 34,088
Hull Repair 125.5% 83.7%
Shields 14,619 14,527
Resists 23,3% 21,7%
Accuracy 13.6% 14.2%
Crit Chance 3.4% 5.3%
Crit Severity 59.1% 80.3%
Speed 22.70 22.44
Turn Rate 21.8 22.6
Beam Array 372(298) 371(297)
Dual Beam 483(387) 482(386)
Quantum 5,273(620) 5,234(616)

Power Levels
57/30 57/30
58/35 62/35
56/35 56/35
123/100 123/100

Overall, I'm actually pleased with the results. The changes are relatively minor, while the Intrepid-R gets a substantial boost to Hull Repair Rate, without the need to respec between these two, or any other Crusier and Science Vessel.

Still, my big concerns are Attack Patterns, Resistances, and Flexibility in Science Power choices, though the latter problem is basically unchanged from the Holodeck setup.

Now for part 2 of the number game - a sampling of Bof and Captain Powers

To keep things simple I've preserved the same power and console layout between Holodeck and Tribble, with the exception of Science Consoles on Tribble which are quite different now - instead of 1 for deflector field and 2 for astrometrics it is now 1 Shield Emitter 2 Particle, with the main focus being its impact on Charged Particle Burst.

Again, Galaxy build on tribble first, then Holodeck, color codded for our convenience.

Emergency Power to Shields 1 - 1,566 regen, 1,387 regen
Engineering Team 2 - 8,820 HP, 8,239
Reverse Shield Polarity - 6 seconds, 8 seconds
Aux to SIF 3 - 5,456 4,967
Hazard Emitters 1 - 8,729 9,191
Transfer Shield Strength 2 - 994 regen/283 for 15 seconds, 729 regen/208 for 15 seconds
Directed Energy Modulation - +30/pulse +21/pulse
Starship Dampening Field 3 - +63 resist, +81
Sensor Scan 3 - -43 resist, -574 stealth, +5.7% stealth sight vs -48/-535/5.4%

Now Intrepid on Tribble and Holodeck

Science Team 2 - 3,446 3,054
Hazard Emitters 3 - 21,436 23,931
Charged Particle Burst 3 - 3,794, 4,076
Transfer Shield Strength 3 - 2,062/588 for 15, 1,500/428 for 15
Emergency Power to Shield 1 - 1,644 1,387
Mask Energy Signature 1 - 4,628, 4,798
Dampening Field 3 - 98, 137
Sensor Scan 4 - -67/574/5.7%, -74/535/5.4%

I'm not actually sure why Hazard Emiters, Sensor Scan, and Dampening Field come out behind on Tribble, though the difference isn't anything major. Charged Particle Burst I THINK is mainly due to the console changes, but I haven't actually compared the two without consoles equipped. The loss for CPB is about 7%, which, while annoying, isn't a huge difference in the grand scheme of things.

So what needs to be fixed?

It feels like we are lacking sufficient skill points to properly get set up with a comfortable generalist build that doesn't suck nor is majorly over-powered. I think if we keep the same number of skill points for space we currently have for both when Ground is separated it might be about enough (my current build has 20 points t1, 5 t2 and 5 t3 in ground for reference) though with the higher cost of skills all around this might be an underestimation.

t4 and t5 especially feel like there is insufficient points to go around, once the required points are spent on t1-3.

Science Powers are still too weighted towards the lower tiers - i.e. it will heavily favor using the powers linked to lower tier skills rather than t4 or 5 stuff, which will damage the variety of good builds for things like STFs and PvP. I'm honestly not sure how to fix that, since you can't duplicate the fix for weapon types without reducing science to purely lower tier powers.

Here's a radical idea, one I'm not sure is feasible. What if all the science powers from tiers 3, 4, and 5 defaulted to 3, but when we put points into 2 of them it bumps the other four up to tier 4, then when you put points into 2 more the last two become t5? That way you can't simply max them all out, but which ones you get access to first is your choice? You'd probably have to limit it further so the 'defensive' and 'offensive' ones must still be taken as pairs (i.e. you can't make dampeners and countermeasures both t3) but if the tech can be put in that could certainly go a long way to freeing up science builds.

Anyway, these are just my preliminary thoughts. I like the potential here, I think it can work, but it isn't quite there yet.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    This is an excellent look at actual numbers with current Holodeck characters and their Tribble versions. Thanks for doing the workup.

    Hopefully Geko will be on top of things and continue to work on the skill system and put more builds of it on Tribble in the upcoming weeks.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    TL/DR version

    I tried to duplicate my Holodeck build on Tribble and also make it feasible to switch between Cruisers and Science ships without any problems. Overall it worked to my satisfaction, except for the resist skills, (for things like placate, knockback, energy drain) critical chance/severity, and the variety of science powers I could spec for.

    Things like Hull Strength, Shield Strength, damage, and damage resistance actually improved in the Tribble build, and most cases where there was a net loss on Tribble it wasn't very large at all.

    Using Escorts though is not advisable due to no points available for Attack Pattern skill and not enough for weapon specialization.

    I think we need to find a way to do for science powers what has been done for Damage types so it isn't weighted against the powers linked to t4 and t5 skills. My best suggestion is find a away to make the science powers 'float' so you can pick which are t3, t4, and t5 so it isn't any cheaper to do them all, but you can pick which to focus on easier.

    Also, it feels like we just don't have quite enough skill points to go around period. If we keep all the current skill points for space when ground is separated it will almost be enough, but that won't be quite there since t4 and t5 are so expensive and so important.

    I can't say how this affects min-maxed or PvP builds, since this was always intended to be a generalist build, but as a generalist build I like the direction the revamp is going, even if it isn't there yet.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    I really don't think they'll be keeping the same amount of SP as just a space pool. I think it's going to be reduced, personally.

    Either way, I don't think we'll have such a large amount of points needed for the T1 and T2 skills (IE, you won't need to spend as many SP on T1 or T2 when the ground skills are removed).

    That being said, they do need to figure out just how much we'll have for the space pool. It'd be nice to have what value they're thinking of so we can test the space skills with that many points and not the full pool (unless they are keeping the 72k for just space).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Yeah, pulling ground points out of the total currently shared is more likely, which is why my build left them in. (if reduced from 7 to 5)

    Reducing how much is needed for each tier could certainly help too - I mean, the 20 points currently in t1 ground would what, completely max out all t1 space? It would be a bit less after grounds portion is taken out, but that might actually make it worse considering most of us either don't spend any in ground or don't spend any in t4 or 5 ground like I do.

    Heck, the impression I get on holodeck is that putting 7 points into Sci Practice, Doctor, and Physiology puts me towards the top of the curve of points spent on ground skills.

    Hopefully I'll be able to try some more things out soon, but it will be a bit tricky - my main used her last respec token to do this one and my alts are currently set up only for training bofs different skills, though I guess it isn't too bad since I'll have to respec them all anyway when it goes live.

    Humm, which would be more useful for testing skill builds with my last slot - Tactical, Engineering, or Science Captain? (I want to save the third for my Klingon character)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Here's my second look with my Tactical Captain Flying a Defiant-R

    Note this is originally an alt used for training bofs, so white/green mk X gear only, no aegis or borg set.
    I also removed Science Consoles since I don’t have enough money on hand on this toon to replace them with the appropriate new ones on Tribble

    Tribble Build

    Tactical
    9 weapon 8 energy 7 maneuvers 7 attack patterns 4 energy specialization
    6 proj 8 targeting 0 Stealth 4 Proj specialization
    Engineering
    0 Batteries 7 Struc Integrity 0 EPS 7 Engine Performance 2 Armor
    8 Hull Repair 0 Subsys Repair 7 Impulse 7 Hull Plating 7 Aux Performance
    7 Efficiency 8 Warp Core 7 Shield Perf. 7 Weapon Performance
    Science
    0 Flow Capacitor 2 Power Insulators 0 Graviton 2 Inertial Damp 2 Countermeasures
    8 Shield Emitters 7 Shield Systems 0 Particle Generators 0 Sensors 0 Subspace Decompiler
    Ground
    5 E/S/T away team
    5 close combat 3 security 3 firearms 4 martial arts

    It's less points in ground that I could readily afford on Holodeck, and less points in things like performance and weapon skills.
    I do however like that 2 points in things like Inertial Dampeners gives me essentially half the benefit 9 points does.
    Also note again that with 0 points in stealth I take only a 38 point loss of cloak capability, which is less than 1%

    Holodeck Build

    Starfleet Training
    5 E/S/T Team Leader
    9 Attack Vectors, Combat Maneuvers, Battle Strategy
    9 Command, Escort, H Escort, Tac Escort, Retrofit Escort
    Energy Weapons
    9 Energy Training, Beam, Cannon, Phaser
    Projectile Weapons
    9 Projectile Training, Torp, Quantum
    Engineering
    7 Warp Core, Aux/Eng/Shield Erficiency
    5 Aux/Shield Maintenance
    9 Eng/Shield/Aux/Weapon Performance
    Operations
    7 Ops Training, Deflectors, Emitters, Deflector Field, Hazard System
    Ground
    7 Close Combat
    5 Security, Firearms, Special Forces
    4 Martial Arts

    Honestly, after months of not using Tac ships or Captains the amount of stuff I was able to get out of this build surprised me. I guess I’m too used to the demands of complex science builds. Anyway, worth noting that I was able to max out a lot of the core skills and still put a decent number of points into things like my sci/eng heals and more in ground that with my Sci Main.

    Tribble is on left, Holdeck on right. Red means holodeck was superior, blue Tribble

    Defense 68.6% 70%

    Hull 38,183 39001
    Hull Repair Rate 117.6% 60.0%
    Shields 7,900 8069
    Resist 21% 19.8%
    Accuracy 14.5% 15.0%
    Crit Chance 2.5% 4.5%
    Crit Severity 50.0% 75.0%
    Speed 28.6 24.60
    Turn Rate 31.3 deg/sec 32.8

    Dual Cannons 795(1,060) 804(1,072)
    Quantum 4,448(523) 4,576(538)
    Beam Array 925(740) 935(748)
    Turret 414(552) 418(558)


    Power Levels
    124/100 124/100
    61/40 60/40
    49/25 49/25
    57/35 56/35

    Bof Power changes are a bit trickier to quantify for a Tac build, since a lot of them don’t say anything beyond ‘increase the number of shots fired by each cannon volley for 10 seconds’

    Attack Pattern Omega 3 - 24% damage/36 resist/152% speed and turn/44% defense
    50% damage, +30 resist, +132% flight speed/turn rate, +30% defense

    Attack Pattern Alpha 3 - 48% damage, 4.8% cric chance, 46% severity, 116% turn rate
    +60% damage, 4% crit chance, 40% severity, 80% turn rate

    Okay, attack patterns have something else going on besides the skill change - note that damage bonuses are lower (a lot lower) across the board, but the other benefits are higher, again across the board

    Cloak – 4,982, 5,020 stealth
    Fire on My Mark 3 – 42 lower resist/109 less stealth, 50 damage resist/150 stealth less
    Emergency Power to Shields 1 – 1,481/15power/18% less damage 1,350/22 power/18% less damage
    Aux to SiF 1 – 2,857, 2,655
    Science Team 1 – 2,221, 2,157 regen
    Hazard Emitters 2 – 10,159/19 11,546 over 15, 22 resist for 15
    Tactical Fleet 2 – 22%/12 to maneuvers/targeting systems, 30% damage, 16 to attack vectors

    with tac fleet the damage is less but it looks like the bonus to skills comes out slightly ahead, though it is hard to be sure.

    While the numbers here are a lot more 'red' than the earlier test it isn't nearly as bad as it looks. Defense, Hull, Shields, Accuracy didn't drop all that much, and considering these same limitations and changes are universal shouldn't be too bad for things like pvp since they affect everyone equally, and of course this small a change won't noticeably change difficulty for pve for most of us. The lower damage is a little more aggravating, though actual change in cannon dps is 9 - hardly game breaking.

    The same concerns pop up from before - on Holodeck I can spend a ton of t5 level points on lower tiers, while here I am scrambling for every point. Weapon Specilizations aren't getting the points the really need, and I had to put quite a few less points in ground skills. That last one of course, isn't as worrisome since that revamp is still to come.

    The one great big advantage I see here is that switching to a healer science or tank/healer cruiser won't require any changes to be viable - if not min-maxed. I'd prefer some points in subsystem repair and especially eps for a cruiser build, but I think it would still be effective.

    That, though, I'll have to look at later.

    You know, one quick solution presents itself to the min-max problem. How about separate builds for pve and pvp? That way we can have a nice build like this for pve that gives us plenty of options and room to change ships as we want while the hyper focused pvp build can be done as well?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Just checked my build differences with my Main and found that my resistances went up by ~1% and my attack statistics dropped by a good margin. Turn rate was the same, as a cruiser I never bother with it. My power transfer rate shot up quite a bit on the Tribble server as well.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Thanks Rokesmith!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    It seems to me that switching ships within a category (assault to star, long range to recon) will be easier, but across these, it's just as hard as before, if not worse. I also feel a lot more locked into my weapon choices, and I think not using torps at all might be more efficient for Escorts now, as the skills are overall more expensive.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    What is definitely easier is switching between different flavors of tactical ship - raptors to BoPs, for example.

    Even switching to a cruiser is no big deal.

    Going heavy science or heavy heals is still a re-spec, though. But is that a bad thing? Not in my opinion.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Good job OP bringing in some solid numbers for comparison.

    Again ...and Im sure someone else has already pointed this out... the dev blog says they "fully expect to have to rebalancea". This is a trial run after all.

    Another thing to keep in mind the devs havent even really touched Ground. So I suspect when all is said and done you will be able to make a balanced Ground/Space character that can do well in both.


    For those that have seen my past raves... this is me eating some humble pie :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    It seems to me that switching ships within a category (assault to star, long range to recon) will be easier, but across these, it's just as hard as before, if not worse. I also feel a lot more locked into my weapon choices, and I think not using torps at all might be more efficient for Escorts now, as the skills are overall more expensive.

    There could be some truth to this. Once I get home tonight I'm going to take my Defiant build and compare it to a tank Cruiser and Heal Science without respecing, as well as the actual respec on Holodeck. Looking at it I definately don't think it will work for shield-stripper/offensive science, but I hold out hope for the other two.

    As for weapon choices - I was trying for more balance here and I still ended up putting less into torps than I normally ever do, and no torps would have a lot more advantages in this version than on holodeck - especially when I realize that that would mean your could go from 4/4 in energy/projectile specialization to 8 in energy, or 7 there and put the last 500 somewhere else.

    Still, it does make cannon/beam hybrids more doable, though the console situation penalizes 'rainbow' setups more than I would like.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    And, skills cost too much.

    This needs to be tweaked, and ground needs a separate skill point pool.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    If they just wanted to make it easier to switch ships they just would have to change the skilltree the way, that u have only 1 set of ship skills instead of skills for every shipclass. The new skilltree is much worse then the current one is.

    The powers lost about 1/3 effectiveness. Not to mention the nerfs to several consoles and equipment parts. Same with the different Weapons.

    The game will get more gear related with that, to force people to buy the gear as a dilithiumsink (moneysink).

    If they want a dilithiuim sink it would be way easier if ppl actually would have to repair their ships, like in other games where u have to maintaine your equipment to keep getting the full potential of it.

    And the statement that the new skilltree is easier to understand is imo not true. They just would have to make a better documentation for the old skilltree. Like listing all powers that are affected by the skill as a tooltip, and maybe 1 or 2 hints how they affect it.

    I mean i really liked the game, until now.

    I am not against f2p at all, but seems the ppl who said that the f2p change will make the game worse, were right.

    Atm it seems more like a free to fail game, according to the current developement.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    If they just wanted to make it easier to switch ships they just would have to change the skilltree the way, that u have only 1 set of ship skills instead of skills for every shipclass. The new skilltree is much worse then the current one is.

    Exactly. Combine the ship captain skills and the weapon type skills and refine the descriptions for all powers to say exactly what they do, and you're done.
    The powers lost about 1/3 effectiveness. Not to mention the nerfs to several consoles and equipment parts. Same with the different Weapons.

    The game will get more gear related with that, to force people to buy the gear as a dilithiumsink (moneysink).

    Yup... which is exactly opposite of what was said just earlier this year, that gear wasn't going to be the be-all, end-all.

    I also have the feeling that they wanted this nerf to make it so that the brand new F2P'ers that join will be more on par with us once they hit VA (I see massive leveling bonuses coming our way for the first month or 2 to encourage them to hit VA faster, which means they'll also be more inclined to buy c-store ships, since there won't be enough time to refine enough dilithium to buy a real ship).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Not to steal anyone's thunder but this is a good thread and good idea. I thought I would throw my results into the mix for comparison. Thank you for publishing this OP.

    Tribble Build

    screenshot_2011-11-05-10-29-01.jpg

    screenshot_2011-11-05-10-29-11.jpg

    Holodeck Build

    screenshot_2011-11-05-16-45-42.jpg

    screenshot_2011-11-05-16-45-33.jpg

    screenshot_2011-11-05-16-45-21.jpg



    1st number is Intrepid-R on Holodeck, 2nd is Intrepid on Tribble, colored to show which came out ahead, red for Holodeck, blue for Tribble.

    Note the powers nerf from the Tribble build. Target Subsystems, Sensor Scan and Science Fleet have been particularly hit hard as Geko warned us they would be. That was definitely followed through on.
    Captain Geko wrote: "The effectiveness (magnitude or duration) of those skills will be modified to approximately 75% of what you can achieve now with full skills. For example, if an ability would grant a base 10% debuff, and could be improved to a 20% debuff if you have max (9 levels) in all 3 skills that affected that ability, then that ability now will just come with a flat 17.5% debuff."


    Defense 59.8% // 58.3%
    Hull HP 35,101 // 35,101
    Hull Repair 60% // 128.5%
    Shields 13,841 // 13,841
    Resists 22.6% // 24.3%
    Accuracy 15% 15%
    Crit Chance 4.5% // 3.4%
    Crit Severity 75% // 59.1%
    Speed 23.93 // 23.03
    Turn Rate 25.1 // 22.7

    Beam Array 155(124) // 266(213)
    Tricobolt 15,143 // 14,375
    Quantum 5,669 // 5,391



    Power Levels
    40/25 50/25
    69/50 71/50
    56/25 57/25

    125/100 125/100


    Target Subsystems I -45 Shield Power Setting // -36 Shield Power Setting
    Target Subsystems II -60 Shield Power Setting // -48 Shield Power Setting

    ***At max skill Tribble's version of Target Subs II just became as good as Holodeck's version of Target Subs I

    Emergency Power To Shields I 1,462 - +22 - 18% // 1,346 +22 - 18%
    Emergency Power To Shields II 1,950 - +32 - 22% // 1,794 +30 - 24%


    Science Team I 2,149 Shield Regeneration // 2,018 Shield Regeneration

    Hazard Emitters I 14,587 +22 DR // +13,195 +23 DR


    Scramble Sensors I 14 seconds (non spec) // 13 seconds (non spec)

    Tractor Beam III 116 Kinetic Damage x42 (102 DPS) // 93 Kinetic Damage x42 (82 DPS)


    Transfer Shield Strength II 1,149 - 327 - 18% // 1,277 - 364 - 18%
    Transfer Shield Strength III 1,436 - 409 - 22% // 1,596 - 455 - 22%


    Gravity Well III **Holodeck tooltip broken** // 2,076 Kinetic Damage per/sec -0.53 Repel

    Sensor Scan -97 All DR // -68 All DR

    Subnuke - 252 % // -233%

    Science Fleet 40 % DR to shields // 33% DR to shields

    In conclusion, the skill tree was a serious nerf.

    I can get better results from the Tribble build with a Positron Deflector and Starfleet Elite Engines coupled with the Starfleet Elite Shields. The two builds posted above are as identical as I can get them accompanied with the counterparts gear from the other server. Changes in consoles have been accounted for and appropriately adjusted on the Tribble build. Deflector, Engines and Shield remain the same.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Interesting numbers Rooster.

    Definitely an overall nerf, though I have to ask - was this purely an attempt at duplication for the sake of comparison or is the Tribble build the way you would actually spec if it went live tomorrow? (Thankfully it isn't)

    I also wonder if it is peculiar to me to not be overly worried about light to moderate nerfs that affect the entire player base equally? I mean, the way I see it is that if everyone's shields and hull (for example) drop a few hundred points with the conversion it basically washes out since no one group gains any advantage from it. Does that make sense?

    I guess part of it is also that I'm more interested in the ability to jump from ship to ship without respecing than I am with honing a single build to razor sharpness.

    With these numbers in mind what would you suggest be changed?

    Comparing these with my own numbers I also wonder if things are showing up properly too, certainly a troubling thought.

    Take for example crit chance and severity. You've got no points in weapon specialization and yet your build has a 4.5% bonus chance - while mine with 3 and 4 points in each ends up with 3.4% on my main (3 points each) and 2.5% with (4 points) my Tac alt.

    I guess it could be things like accolade buffs running in the background, but I don't have the time right now to go digging to compare that one thing.

    For some reason I was also surprised you managed to get hull, shields, and accuracy to come out exactly the same, given that the science build more or less had the same skill points in the relevant skills Holodeck/Tribble and still came out ahead (7 each) while the tac dropped from 9 to 7 and only lost about 900 hull points.

    As for powers - I'm curious as to the reasoning behind nerfing (aside from skill changes) things like captain powers and the damage bonuses to attack patterns.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Okay here is my tac captain plopped into an Excelsior without any change to the skill set-up designed purely for flying an escort.

    Tribble Build

    Tactical
    9 weapon 8 energy 7 maneuvers 7 attack patterns 4 energy specialization
    6 proj 8 targeting 0 Stealth 4 Proj specialization
    Engineering
    0 Batteries 7 Struc Integrity 0 EPS 7 Engine Performance 2 Armor
    8 Hull Repair 0 Subsys Repair 7 Impulse 7 Hull Plating 7 Aux Performance
    7 Efficiency 8 Warp Core 7 Shield Perf. 7 Weapon Performance
    Science
    0 Flow Capacitor 2 Power Insulators 0 Graviton 2 Inertial Damp 2 Countermeasures
    8 Shield Emitters 7 Shield Systems 0 Particle Generators 0 Sensors 0 Subspace Decompiler
    Ground
    5 E/S/T away team
    5 close combat 3 security 3 firearms 4 martial arts

    Note that gear is mk X green and white, and not all engineering consoles are being used, with none in science.

    Holodeck build is basically the same as Holodeck Defiant posted earlier, with the appropriate ship skills swapped, and cannon points (plus 1 from ground) put into 4 points of Hull Repair. I accidentally forgot to devote points to Engineering Training in t1, but didn’t want to waste a respect token to change just that. Hopefully it won’t mess up the numbers too much. I likely would have taken the necessary points from ground skills to do so, especially since it is a t1 skill, so no other changes would have been necessary.

    First row is a repeat of the Tribble/Holodeck numbers in the Defiant. Second row is Tribble Excelsior 1st, Holodeck 2nd. Red = Holodeck was superior, blue for Tribble

    Defense 68.6% 70%
    58.6% 60.0%
    Hull 38,183 39001
    49,638 50,701
    Hull Repair Rate 117.6% 60.0%
    169.3% 112.3%
    Shields 7,900 8069
    8778 8,966
    Resist 21% 19.8%
    21% 19.8%
    Accuracy 14.5% 15.0%
    14.5% 15.0%
    Crit Chance 2.5% 4.5%
    2.5% 4.5%
    Crit Severity 50.0% 75.0%
    50.0% 75.0%
    Speed 28.6 24.60
    26.92 23.51
    Turn Rate 31.3 deg/sec 32.8
    13.6 14.1

    Quantum 4,448(523) 4,576(538)
    4,448(523)4,576(538)
    Beam Array 925(740) 935(748)
    799(639)809(647)

    Power Levels
    124/100 124/100
    61/40 60/40
    49/25 49/25
    57/35 56/35

    114/100 114/100
    66/40 65/40
    58/30 58/30
    58/30 58/30

    Emergency Power to Shields 1 – 1,482/+15 power 1,350/22
    Aux to SiF 1 – 2,880/21 resist 2,692/21
    Aceton Beam 3– 50 dmg/30 (1500 dmg) -500 resist 2,046 dmg, -50% damage
    (now covered under science skill ‘Particle Generators, btw, and with a completely different effect, making direct comparison impossible, though damage is lower on Tribble)
    Engineering Team 1 – 5,994 4,961
    Science Team – 2,221 2,157
    Hazard Emitters 2 – 10,242 11,707

    So ship stats definitely came out more in favor of Holodeck this time around, though still mostly minor differences, something like 1000 less hull strength being the biggie, shields dropped less than 200 by comparison.

    Healing Bof powers actually favors Tribble, except for Hazard Emitters which I'm starting to think might just have been nerfed a bit besides the skill changes, and actual damage didn't go down that much (like 7 points of dps for the important one - beams)

    More offensive bof powers (science and engineering more so) are less useful with this build, but it is meant to be a tank/healer option anyway.

    The key to remember here is that no respec was required to go from the Defiant to the Excelsior, and both builds are still, in my opinion, workable for anything besides serious pvp (and I'd still use it in pvp, I'd just have to accept that I'd be doing so with something of a disadvantage against many opponents)

    Still, the same problems of crit chance dropping shows up, as does lack of variety in offensive abilities from the science and engineering side of the street. For me though, the biggest concern is still how little I can put into ground skills and how tight points are in t4 and 5. As I've said before on Holodeck right now I can use a lot of points for t4-5 to further flesh out lower tiers, while in Tribble - no matter the build I'm looking at - not only can I not spare any from the last two tiers I don't have enough for the essential skills, let alone the others that would be nice to have.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Rokesmith, some of these responses may seem rattled because it is getting late here and I'm losing my train of thought.
    Rokesmith wrote: »
    Definitely an overall nerf, though I have to ask - was this purely an attempt at duplication for the sake of comparison or is the Tribble build the way you would actually spec if it went live tomorrow? (Thankfully it isn't).

    It's most definitely an attempt to duplicate. The more I play with this skilltree the more I'm thinking that many things are not working properly with it. Also, I'm starting to wonder if a lot in this new skill tree could just just be described as "fluff" intended to make the skilltree appear more fleshed out. You mentioned Weapons Specializations and I saw no sign that my Crits were benefiting from this skill anywhere in my tooltips when I had actually invested some points into it. Starship Sensors is another skill which is somewhat misleading as it is only supposed to be adding to Stealth sight and resistance to confuse and placate. However, I have noticed it affecting my timers on Scramble Sensors by awarding it 3 additional seconds when that should be falling under Countermeasures in the skilltree. Frankly. if all Starship Sensors is going to do is increase Stealthsight and give resistance to confuse and placate then I really don't know why anyone would spec for it. It's easier just to carry a Science Team and you don't even need to spec for that. Starship Armor Reinforcements looks like a "fluff" skill as well and why is it only adding kinetic DR? We need to see some numbers in these tooltips so we can know what exactly they are giving us if anything at all. I'm not even sure why Starship Armor Reinforcement was even added. There seems to be no equivalent of it in the old tree and why is it T5? My DR numbers came out the same as Holodeck without putting any points in the Tribble build which makes me think it is something new. I've always had my concerns that Subsystem Repair is another "fluff" skill designed to suck in unsuspecting builders with false promises. If it does work there needs to be a tooltip better describing it at least.
    Rokesmith wrote: »
    I also wonder if it is peculiar to me to not be overly worried about light to moderate nerfs that affect the entire player base equally? I mean, the way I see it is that if everyone's shields and hull (for example) drop a few hundred points with the conversion it basically washes out since no one group gains any advantage from it. Does that make sense?

    Just from a PvE perspective it is most definitely worrisome because you're looking at prolonging space combat through these nerfs which could be a turnoff to new players. You're basically becoming more reliant on the games "extras" such as slotting shipboard DOffs, Buffs from doing Doff assignments and forced crafting for purple gear as you level just to make the grind smoother. Captain Geko has nerfed most powers to 75% of their previous potential. It is essentially going to be another economy sink. Powers like Charged Particle Burst, Gravity Well, Eject Warp Plasma and Target Subsystems are 75% of their Holodeck values to make players more gear dependent. I didn't craft a single thing for the first toon I leveled in STO. I didn't even know where Memory Alpha was. The beautiful thing about that was I didn't need to. My build was crappy, I selected all the wrong passive traits and I had no idea what I was doing but I had fun. I sometimes wonder if all of these economy sinks that are coming into the game (Powers nerf, crafting, etc) only serve the purpose of complicating things for new players and frustrating the old players. Sometimes less is more and Cryptic may in fact be over analyzing things.

    Powers should remain prenerf so as not to upset players you already have because most people are only going to see it for what it is. If the devs want to do a powers nerf as a means for an economy sink then they should really think seriously about just raising HP and shields on NPC's. It's a double edged sword but I wouldn't take away from what the players already have. In my opinion, only negative things will come from that.
    Rokesmith wrote: »
    Comparing these with my own numbers I also wonder if things are showing up properly too, certainly a troubling thought.

    My numbers may have actually been listed backwards to yours. 1st number is Holodeck, 2nd is Tribble, colored to show which came out ahead, red for Holodeck, blue for Tribble.

    You listed your Tribble numbers first. That is where the confusion may lie perhaps?

    However, I don't fully trust the numbers I'm receiving from this skill tree at the moment. I've seen several errors with it.

    I do have several accolade buffs with the toon that I posted. It was made with PvP in mind and it does have quite a few passive bonuses from accolades.
Sign In or Register to comment.