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Good with the bad...?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Skill system makes a player vastly more versatile, which is nice... however trying it, I am actually significantly weaker in specialization than I once was.

Can't get something without giving a little I suppose...

The bad part isn't necessarily that I have to leave several vital skills underpowered, however rather that I can't advance to the next rank skills without, literally, maxing out EVERY tier, whether needed or not.

What in bloody hell am I going to use skills affecting Tachyon Beam and Chroniton Particle whatever, but I HAVE to have 9 in this skill just to be able to advance?

Really?

Meanwhile, skills I actually NEED, I have to either cut shorthand, or abandon altogether.

If you're going to FORCE me to max out skills... the least you can do is make sure they are skills I need.

Otherwise, let me bypass them, or cut the rank restriction down enough that I don't have to spec 9's in things that are COMPLETELY irrelevant for my builds.
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Hakaishin wrote:
    Skill system makes a player vastly more versatile, which is nice... however trying it, I am actually significantly weaker in specialization than I once was.

    Can't get something without giving a little I suppose...

    The bad part isn't necessarily that I have to leave several vital skills underpowered, however rather that I can't advance to the next rank skills without, literally, maxing out EVERY tier, whether needed or not.

    What in bloody hell am I going to use skills affecting Tachyon Beam and Chroniton Particle whatever, but I HAVE to have 9 in this skill just to be able to advance?

    Really?

    Meanwhile, skills I actually NEED, I have to either cut shorthand, or abandon altogether.

    If you're going to FORCE me to max out skills... the least you can do is make sure they are skills I need.

    Otherwise, let me bypass them, or cut the rank restriction down enough that I don't have to spec 9's in things that are COMPLETELY irrelevant for my builds.

    This and exactly what I've been trying to say in other posts!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Hakaishin wrote:
    Otherwise, let me bypass them, or cut the rank restriction down enough that I don't have to spec 9's in things that are COMPLETELY irrelevant for my builds.

    This. Remove the must spend X number of points in a skill tree tier part of the system. If you have to have some kind of arbitrary restriction, tie it to ranks as follows:
    Tier 1: Lt
    Tier 2: Lt Cmdr
    Tier 3: Cmdr
    Tier 4: Captain
    Tier 5: Rear Admiral+
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Hakaishin wrote:
    The bad part isn't necessarily that I have to leave several vital skills underpowered, however rather that I can't advance to the next rank skills without, literally, maxing out EVERY tier, whether needed or not.

    Not true at all. I respecced and have only 5s in almost every t1 and t2 skill. I didn't have to put any 9s in at any tier to advance.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Destinii wrote:
    Not true at all. I respecced and have only 5s in almost every t1 and t2 skill. I didn't have to put any 9s in at any tier to advance.

    You must've put points in ground. Ground pool is meant to be separate in the future, which makes putting those points there worthless for the time being, given the test is meant for space.

    If not, screenshot your skills please.

    Or I can safely assume you're incorrect... because I spent considerable time ensuring I wasn't delusional.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Hakaishin wrote:
    You must've put points in ground. Ground pool is meant to be separate in the future, which makes putting those points there worthless for the time being, given the test is meant for space.

    If not, screenshot your skills please.

    Or I can safely assume you're incorrect... because I spent considerable time ensuring I wasn't delusional.

    Of course I put points in ground. I still expect to play missions on the ground where ground skills can come into play until they change the pools. At that point, I'm expecting you're not going to have as many points in the space pool anyway so you can either go to 9 in a few, or 5 (or so) in them all.

    They may not have put ground skills into their own pool yet, but if you're not intending to play ground missions, then what's the bother of putting 9s in every space skill? That just means you'll be better in space, because the T1 space skills got *massive* boosts (T1 used to only go to 18%)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Destinii wrote:
    Of course I put points in ground.

    This made everything else you had to say on the subject irrelevant.

    This is a test for Space Skills. 2 (primary) reasons your arguments are invalid here.

    1.) Ground skill system is not developed, and the purpose of the entire test module on tribble at the moment is to establish the skill point economy for space.

    Using points meant for space to begin with on ground invalidates the test.

    Ground and Space are meant with the new system to have separate skill pools entirely... so those 72,750 skill points are meant to be used in space, and you'll have a different pool entirely for ground.

    2.) Many of us are spec'd for space PvP. Ground PvE is useless to a LOT of us.
    Destinii wrote:
    but if you're not intending to play ground missions, then what's the bother of putting 9s in every space skill?

    You obviously didn't read what I posted correctly. Please read this time before posting a random response. You'll answer your own question.
    Hakaishin wrote:
    Meanwhile, skills I actually NEED, I have to either cut shorthand, or abandon altogether.

    I am missing out on a number of skills I NEED because I have to spec into things I DON'T need, for no reason.

    There is 0 reason to waste points I need elsewhere on things that I don't need/use.

    Why NOT spec into Tachyon Beam and abandon points in Weapon power as a Tactical Officer?

    Probably because I am not stupid enough to use Tachyon Beam, and it is not equipped. Meanwhile, the skills I do need are sitting at 3-4 because I was FORCED to put 9 in that useless, trash skill.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Oh so many flaws...
    Hakaishin wrote:
    1.) Ground skill system is not developed, and the purpose of the entire test module on tribble at the moment is to establish the skill point economy for space.

    Using points meant for space to begin with on ground invalidates the test.
    No, the point is to test out the entire new Skill Tree. Space was the primary one affected, but ground is still a valid area to test (there are even 3 new ground skills, invalidating your point).
    Hakaishin wrote:
    Ground and Space are meant with the new system to have separate skill pools entirely...
    Eventually, yes, but probably not before F2P is released (pretty sure they said Season 5 at the earliest)
    Hakaishin wrote:
    so those 72,750 skill points are meant to be used in space, and you'll have a different pool entirely for ground.

    That is an assumption, so automatically flawed. No one but the devs know how the skills are going to be divided/duplicated for the different pools. You can't assume you'll get the full 72k points for space use only.
    Hakaishin wrote:
    2.) Many of us are spec'd for space PvP. Ground PvE is useless to a LOT of us.
    Only smart point you had, but then again there are some that enjoy ground PVP :)
    Hakaishin wrote:
    I am missing out on a number of skills I NEED because I have to spec into things I DON'T need, for no reason.

    There is 0 reason to waste points I need elsewhere on things that I don't need/use.

    Why NOT spec into Tachyon Beam and abandon points in Weapon power as a Tactical Officer?

    Probably because I am not stupid enough to use Tachyon Beam, and it is not equipped. Meanwhile, the skills I do need are sitting at 3-4 because I was FORCED to put 9 in that useless, trash skill.
    I don't disagree with you here. Less places to put points into has made it difficult to place points exactly where you want.

    The only smart suggestion I've heard of so far (different thread)was someone suggesting to remove the "You must place X points into tier Y before moving on to the next tier" suggestion. If thats removed, and people can put their points exactly where they want to, I believe that should significantly improve people's opinion of it overall.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Hakaishin wrote:
    You obviously didn't read what I posted correctly. Please read this time before posting a random response. You'll answer your own question.

    I read exactly what you wrote, mulitple times. Not once in your original post did you state you didn't use ground skills. You only stated 'skills' and that
    Hakaishin wrote:
    I can't advance to the next rank skills without, literally, maxing out EVERY tier, whether needed or not.

    Again, I *distinctly* note the absence of not putting points in ground skills, as you mention "literally maxing out "EVERY tier" (which includes ground skills in each tier currently).

    I don't think it's my posts that were unclear based on what was written (and left out of ) the original post, nor was my response 'random' based on what was written therein.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    You're right Hak. The problem with this test is we shouldn't have ground skills connected to space at all. They should remove ground skills from the tree and put them somewhere else. Even then you'd have the same problem: Why am i forced to take skills i don't need just to bump to the next tier? Even on holo, by VA i could put points where i wanted when i did my final respec.

    They still have a space skill linked to a ground skill so i was forced to take ground skills anyway. I like where they're going with this idea, but it obviously needs some major tweaking. Mixed with the whole console debacle it'll be a long test i think. If they do put this live with the skills not finished it'll be a travesty in all honesty.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Compston wrote: »
    They still have a space skill linked to a ground skill so i was forced to take ground skills anyway.

    Ummm.. I dont see that, can you point out which one? All the ground skills I see as an engineer only affect the ground...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Sardoc wrote:
    No, the point is to test out the entire new Skill Tree. Space was the primary one affected, but ground is still a valid area to test (there are even 3 new ground skills, invalidating your point).

    Those 3 were the ones in the 1st Tier named "Science/Engineering/Tactical Team Leader," just without the space components of buffing the Teams. So nothing new, just now ground is almost entirely separated from space (still need Doctor to train Sci Team III and such for Eng and Tac Team III)

    Points are the issue. I think everyone agrees on that. Science is still, once again, kinda hosed, though less so since a good number of the science tree skills are actually universal skills (various resistances and debuff duration reductions).

    Many people don't do anything ground, so putting points in ground is irrelevant. He was making observations from that perspective, as he stated in the beginning of his OP. Especially with the new split STFs, ground points aren't necessary to get the best gear. However, for those of you who do ground stuff, then obviously the ground skills will matter.

    As for the actual skills, I am rather pleased. They generalized most of the skills and eliminated most of the problems with the current skills. The numbers end up about the same, with small gains and losses here and there (like an extra 10% on Sci Team II fully maxed in skills and identical consoles). The various resistances and debuff duration reductions are very nice.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Sardoc wrote:
    Ummm.. I dont see that, can you point out which one? All the ground skills I see as an engineer only affect the ground...

    To train a BOff in Science Team 3 you have to take Scientist which is a ground skill for Sci Captains.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Ikrit122 wrote: »

    Many people don't do anything ground, so putting points in ground is irrelevant. He was making observations from that perspective, as he stated in the beginning of his OP. Especially with the new split STFs, ground points aren't necessary to get the best gear. However, for those of you who do ground stuff, then obviously the ground skills will matter.

    As for the actual skills, I am rather pleased. They generalized most of the skills and eliminated most of the problems with the current skills. The numbers end up about the same, with small gains and losses here and there (like an extra 10% on Sci Team II fully maxed in skills and identical consoles). The various resistances and debuff duration reductions are very nice.

    Then it's still a flawed comparison, as we currently have no clue as to the actual SP pool that space skills are going to get. Under the complete skill revamp, space and ground will have separate pools. Will all 72k+ points currently available remain for space skills, while ground gets a second pool? Will the current value be split, like 50-60k space and 20-25k ground? We don't know.

    Spending as if all 72k+ points are for *space only* invalidates the testing method. There may not (and probably won't be) be enough points to get 9 in every skill in every tier, so having to 'spend points in a skill I don't use to 9 to advance' might not even exist once its finished.

    I think that while they want testing on the new skill system, they're also not expecting most people to just ignore ground skills, although many people currently do (and will do so for now because they can).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Compston wrote: »
    To train a BOff in Science Team 3 you have to take Scientist which is a ground skill for Sci Captains.

    Which is *exactly* how the Scientist skill works currently on Holodeck. It hasn't changed at all, so if you wanted that skill on Holodeck, you have to train into Ground and not just all Space skills.

    I guess I'm missing your point?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Destinii wrote:
    Which is *exactly* how the Scientist skill works currently on Holodeck. It hasn't changed at all, so if you wanted that skill on Holodeck, you have to train into Ground and not just all Space skills.

    I guess I'm missing your point?

    My point: What is a space based skill doing in a ground based skill to begin with? I never really understood that and was hoping this error would be taken care of with the skill revamp.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Destinii wrote:
    Spending as if all 72k+ points are for *space only* invalidates the testing method. There may not (and probably won't be) be enough points to get 9 in every skill in every tier, so having to 'spend points in a skill I don't use to 9 to advance' might not even exist once its finished.

    This is fine. But being FORCED to put 9 in something that's completely irrelevant (or putting points in ground when ground hasn't even been patched yet, for someone who doesn't spend 2 seconds on the ground in game, also completely irrelevant) while skills I DO need are either 0-2, there IS something wrong.

    I agree more or less with Compton's assessment.

    However, since we see how spread out and otherwise impossible it is to actually spec properly for Space with the full 72k+ points, to imagine that SAME pool is expected for ground (even after Cryptic acknowledges Ground will have a SEPARATE POOL, which is still making every argument on ground today void) is ridiculous.

    This more or less means every space PvPer in the game didn't just get hit with a nerf bat.

    Not even a nerf ICBM.

    Nero came by and threw red matter into space PvP in general, waving the flag "Ground PvE".

    I don't mind the current skill system.

    But if I don't want to use my 72k points on ground, I shouldn't be forced to.

    If I don't want to use my points on Tachyon Beam and Charged Particle Burst, I shouldn't be forced to.

    2 things can easily remedy this.

    1: Remove or SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the skill tier requirements (ground and space will be separate, so arguing I can put points in ground to raise it, noting I'm a space PvPer and do NOTHING on ground, voids it).

    2: Simply increase the skill point allotment so the points I'm FORCED to waste on the useless junk while sacrificing things I actually need becomes a non-factor.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Well I guess this is the first pass, I'm sure they will refine it as we go along.
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