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Rethinking Crafting and Dilithium in a positive way

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Rethinking Crafting and Dilithium - my stab at constructive criticism of something I hate (dilithium in crafting) into something more acceptable

Crafting has never been all that great in STO, and the recent simple tacking on of Dilithium to high end items is simply offensive given that we are already grinding anomalies which takes more time than it does to simply grind the dilithium to buy an item outright from a vendor. This also simply breaks fleet community crafting.

Here is a rethink of the crafting system to make it both far more interesting with increased complexity instead of being a modified vendor system and also add in both energy credit and dilithium sinks. (With thanks to Nikola_Tesla and Irish_Darkshadow from whom I cribbed or based several of these ideas from)

My energy credit vs dilithium values are set at 1 dilithium = 100 energy credits for simplicity as an example, not because of their actual relative values.

Location
Having crafting only available on Memory Alpha is too limiting, but I'm opposed to having it be ship based. I think that all social zones should have a crafting area near the bank and exchange. Crafting at Memory Alpha might result in a schematics cost discount so that the location doesn't become useless and abandoned.

Schematics overhaul
All gear is available in all quality levels. When you buy schematics you pay various amounts of energy credits for uncommon (10,000 credits), rare (100,000 credits), and very rare (250,000 credits) schematics. This adds a badly needed energy credit sink into the game. Schematics could also be available for dilithium instead (100, 1000, 2500). Increasing the cost is a good thing, there are simply too many very rare items floating around at commonly affordable prices and this is a better way of increasing cost to craft than making people spend many more hours grinding anomalies in the horrible genesis missions.

When getting their schematic, crafters should have the option of whether to make items bound on equip (no discount), bound to account - so they can mail it to themselves or use a future account-wide bank - (10% discount), or bound to character (25% discount). The "bound" discounts would encourage people to learn and become interested in the crafting systems themselves instead of just relying on fleet crafters.

Risk and Insurance

Add risk to crafting. Failure should not be common - happen less than 10% of the time, but if you do fail you should risk your schematic being downgraded one notch and/or losing up to 25% of your resources.. There should be varying degrees of failure. Loss of common anomalies is generally acceptable for the most common failures (base 10% of attempts), loss of rare particle traces or downgrading schematics should be rare (base 1% of attempts). Failure should also result in the gain of knowledge - or an increase in R&D lab skill, which reduces the risk of future failure.

Add insurance to crafting, insurance is non-refundable. If you insure your crafted item with energy credits (1000 energy credits per tier * rarity being crafted) you guarantee that in the event of failure your schematic is not degraded nor rare particle traces lost. If you insure your crafted item with dilithium (a modest amount such as 100 dilithium per tier * rarity being crafted) Dilithium insurance would ensure that no loss of resources occurs in the event of failure. The cost of insurance could also be reduced/mitigated based on a players R&D lab skill.

Example insurance for a rare MK III item would cost 3x2=6000 credits or 60 dilithium, insurance for a MK XII very rare would be 12x3=36,000 energy credits or 360 dilithium.

DOFFs and R&D labs
Have uncommon and rare DOFFs staff R&D labs on your ships - in addition to the other parts of the ship they can staff. The better your DOFFs are or the better your combination of DOFF abilities are the better your R&D skill is - in addition to other ways to earn R&D lab skill such as learning via crafting and reverse engineering.

Improved R&D skill would modify the risk of failure when crafting an item and would rarely result in your producing an item with a quality level greater than the schematic your purchased. The additional attribute would be randomly issued and this surprise reward would never apply to crafting very rare items as they already have the maximum of three attributes.

Crafting Interface
Instead of having massive lists of predefined items of great variety to craft reduce it to a handful of drop-down boxes with 1, 2, or 3 attribute drop-down boxes available depending on what quality schematic you are using. All available attributes should be available in each drop-down list to maximize flexibility and open up experimentation by the crafting community.

[edit] It could be restricted that you could only use up to two of the same attribute, with an unlock-able very rare ability to use 3 of the same attribute via reverse engineering.

Reverse Engineering
All looted items - except unique items issued by missions - should be able to be reverse engineered. Reverse engineering should always result in a handful of common anomalies, uncommonly result in rare particle traces or uncommon schematics, rarely result in rare schematics, and very rarely result in very rare schematics. Reverse engineering should also result in earning R&D skill of varying amounts depending on the quality of items returned.

[edit] An enhancement of the crafting interface and reverse engineering would be that you start with a limited set of attributes that you already know, and you gain new attribute options via reverse engineering loot that includes attributes you don't already know. If you reverse engineer uncommon loot you only have a very rare chance to learn the new attribute, if you do this on rare loot you have a rare chance to learn the attribute, if you do this on very rare loot you have a merely uncommon chance to learn this. In addition to simply learning an attribute, when reverse engineering very rare loot you gain a chance to unlock an ability to use 3 of an attribute when crafting.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    That actually makes good sense. Basic schematics are already available for an EC cost, and by revamping the system with the addition of higher quality schematics for additional EC or Dilithium, rather than simply tacking on dilithium to recipes seems like it'd be less of a headache for everyone. I also like the idea of being able to choose the effects a piece of gear will have based on the schematic, however, I'm not so sure about having a failure chance added. I don't know of any MMO that has that kind of system implemented, though i see it in several Single Player RPGs. One thing I'm curious about is if a reverse-engineering mechanic were implemented, wouldn't it be more interesting to be able to earn added effects from items that have them, rather than have the effects available from the start?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    When the two people I referenced introduced the concept of failure and insurance to me I had a negative gut reaction to it myself. However, after mulling over the idea for a while it grew on me and added another level of interest/complexity for me and turned it into less of a simplistic vendor like system that simply uses anomalies as currency.

    A possible twist to the reverse engineering - though would probably require more server resources than Cryptic is comfortable with (given that is a known pain point for them) would be to have crafting start with a limited base number of attributes and have the additional attributes learned via reverse engineering.... I'm editing my original post to include this idea.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    I like this. Cryptic wants to get dilithium involved in crafting somehow, and attaching the cost to high-quality schematics seems to be a reasonable route. It allows for other, more difficult means to get schematics, but the dilithium prices are weights so that it is "easier" to use dilithium instead of drops, reverse engineering or energy credits.

    I think the failure ideas as proposed need some more ironing out. I feel insurance can be dropped entirely; risk is risk.

    Overall, this is better as-is than what's in the game now.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    I like some of the concepts from the OP. But the question that Cryptic tried to answer is how to make crafting harder and take longer? While these ideas do allow for complexity in the crafted object, they don't really help with the individuals that already have a ton of EC and could flood the market with those crafted items, gaining even more EC, and the cycle repeats.

    The OP's ideas need to have a time component, or another step to accomplish, prior to crafting the gear.

    Maybe a combination of this and Katic's time sinks? However, I would still like to incorporate the crafting system into the Doff system as it would make more sense that your crew is doing the 'crafting' than a captain.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Some really good thought went into this. I am inclined to agree with BDS. Katic's time sinks would help. Still this goes a long way toward making crafting less of another kind of courency and more skill based.

    I really like how you start with a given set if skills that you can expand by way of reverse engineering. Would be nice if the starting crafting skills were flavored by your toon's chosen career.

    On risk and insrance: I played World of Kungfu, one of those free Asian MMOs, which had a similar system and it added a touch of complexity to the crafting process. There the more crafting experience you had the lower the risk. It even put the name of the crafter on the item so you could foster repeat business on their exchange. The economy of that game was just about the best part.

    Some real good ideas here and Crypic sould do itself justice by adding the needed tech to increase the data base so that thet could impliment something like it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    I had considered adding a time sink in the form that various quality levels of items would take time to craft and deliver/mail you the result from the factory, I ended up not including that in my proposal because the grinding of resources to perform the crafting itself is enough of a time sink in my opinion.

    BDS, yes there are rich dudes like me with many millions of EC and toons that will collectively convert to well over a million dilithium, but if you aim crafting prices towards that crowd you price crafting out of reach of the majority. Do you have a link to "katic's time sinks" for me to take a look at how that person approaches the problem? As for your point that it doesn't make sense for your captain to be doing the crafting personally I fully agree. It could be better presented as your ship delivering the raw materials then getting shipped the end product from a factory.

    I have another set of fleshed out crafting ideas for use once there is territory control and fleet starbases, but I'm only putting forward the ideas in this thread that don't depend on major updates in how other parts of the game work.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Katic mentiones timers , like in the Doff system, to make the mutlple sub components of a single gear.

    Or you can just do timers like Kirian_Darkstar suggests, by having flat timers on the gear itself based on quality.
    So basically, Anomalies became "easier" to acquire thanks to Doffs, so Dilithium was injected into crafting to slow it back down?
    ...

    Couldn't a simple "timer" been added instead to crafting instead based on Mark level?
    Like:
    No mark: 5 sec
    Mark I : 10 sec
    Mark II: 20 sec
    Mark III: 40 sec
    Mark IV: 180 sec =1 1/2 minute
    Mark V: 360 sec = 3 minutes
    Mark VI: 6 minutes
    Mark VII: 12 minutes
    Mark VIII: 24 minutes
    Mark IX: 48 Minutes
    Mark X 96 minutes = I hour 36 minutes
    mark XI: 192 minutes = 3 hours 12 minutes

    Then Rarity multiples that base time:
    Uncommon X2
    Rare x4
    Very Rare x8

    So a Very Rare Mark XI item would take 25 hours 36 minutes.

    And like the Doff system, once you start a build going, you can leave and do other things.

    If you absolutely HAD to put Dilithium in there, make it eliminate the build time back down to the 10 second mark, and it had to be paid at the start.

    In both of these suggestions, the timers continue to work even when offline. So the casual gameplayer can still keep up with the hardcore ones.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    [edit] previous content of post made irrelevant by edit of another post
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    I posted this in another thread but I am curious as to you guy's thoughts on this:

    ... they should make it where crafters craft items that wont drop. Lets say items that drop from missions are only greens and single modifier items (like, maybe you get an ACC or DMG boost). But crafters can craft items that have two or three modifiers'. The items they craft do not drop. The items you buy from the vendors are odd number commons and maybe the light blues with a single bonus modifier. This way crafters are not competing with drops or the vendors.

    Take off the damn dilithium, increase the number of anomalies, types of anomalies, traces, maybe make other items additionally needed components (a cannon needs a schematic, dual cannons need a schematic and two cannons, dual heavy cannons need two dual cannons and a schematic).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Anomalies distribution has drastically increased. Using the doff system I have many hundreds of anomalies without once entering one of the horrible genesis mission zones.

    I like your levels idea, how do you like this proposal... You can get even level items + MK XI via crafting, pvp, fleet event completion prizes, and in STFs. All other drops and vendor items are odd level.

    In my opening post I revamped where dilithium is used and how schematics are purchased. Do these suggestions address your concern and do you have a counter proposal or enhancements to suggest?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Jobeleca wrote:
    Anomalies distribution has drastically increased. Using the doff system I have many hundreds of anomalies without once entering one of the horrible genesis mission zones.

    I like your levels idea, how do you like this proposal... You can get even level items + MK XI via crafting, pvp, fleet event completion prizes, and in STFs. All other drops and vendor items are odd level.

    In my opening post I revamped where dilithium is used and how schematics are purchased. Do these suggestions address your concern and do you have a counter proposal or enhancements to suggest?

    I like pretty much all of your suggestions, except ANY dilithium being added to crafting AS OF right now. For serious crafters it will be way too much of a burden, even if just for schematics or the "super purples". Maybe they will increase the number of missions that give out dilithium, maybe they will reduce the costs, or preferably both.

    Granted some people in here their ships exhaust dilithium as they fly with some space goat with a giant net flying behind them gathering it all up. I have a sneaking suspicion these are not and will not be typical players. Playing between two and three hours a night i am barely getting 2k dilithium a day. As is, i support no dilithium costs for any aspect of crafting.

    I really do not think crafters will be upset about increasing the difficulty of crafting if it is worth it. As is being charged dilithium and not getting dilithium in return, is stup... er... I mean... poorly thought out. :D

    And I only read the edits so if you said as much, I apologize
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    I am absolutely and unconditionally opposed to mandatory use of dilithium in crafting, which is the current Tribble system, but I have no objection to it being an option with a non-dilithium alternative being available for doing the same thing.

    In my initial post I proposed what I think would be the most interesting alternative. Another acceptable alternative would be using dilithium as an option to discount or reduce or replace the amount of rare particle traces needed for crafting. This alternative would be far easier for Cryptic to implement, what do you think of this new idea?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    I've posted a vastly simplified crafting alternative that I think Cryptic could implement in time for F2P in this thread
    http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3843220
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Jobeleca,

    edit: <snip>

    Regarding your simple version of crafting. It basically makes it back to where it is today on Holodeck, but with a dilithium option. While this option might apease the masses, the ideas that have been spawned due to the dilithium addition have been some really good ones, to include yours.

    Combining some of the best elements from each would make a really great crafting system, and one that would be fun to play and be very Trek.

    Reverse Engineering = :-D
    Recipies = :-D
    Experimentation = :-D
    Multiple Crafted Components = :-)
    Timers = :-)
    Dilithium as an option = :-| a necessary evil
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Thanks for the link BDS, I visited the thread and like the ideas but I simply don't see Cryptic ever doing something that complex with crafting.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    I'm all for changing crafting to something more interesting. I posted my own ideas here, which I think could be combined with other ideas posted here rather nicely.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    I pretty much agree with you on everything except keeping crafting off of the ships. It's always seemed odd to me that they didn't incorporate some sort of crafting into the interiors when they were put in considering how barren of features they are.

    I get the social aspect of keeping it ground based, but given just how much experimentation and upgrading goes on on the ships in canon there should still be some limited crafting on board. Allowing the crafting of stuff like hypospray/shield boosts, blue armor, kits, and personal shields for us and our BOs for the sake of convenience given how many of them we "need" at each level would be nice. Perhaps allowing for crafting up to green ship components on-board and having to go to a "dry dock" ground crafting location to craft purple ground components and blue/purple space components. That would be akin to the small upgrades that get made along the journey and the major upgrades that get made when a ship returns home for major overhauls and component upgrades.


    I was trying to figure out where to best post the bulk of the remainder of this post, but here is as good as anywhere else I guess!

    The idea of incorporating crafting into the DOFF system is intriguing to me because there are so many ways it could be handled. It could be built-in in such a way that it's nearly seamless and could even grant minor XP toward the various DOFF focuses. Do you want a new ship shield? Send some components on a trade mission to the Cardassians! Failure and Critical Failure result in nothing, Success gets you the shield you're after. Need a new ground weapon? Bajor security needs your help! Send a security team, a stock of phaser rifles, and some rations. When the crisis is averted and the team returns, you've got a nifty new purple Phaser Pulsewave Rifle that your team rigged up while they were in the field.

    I've seen people saying long crafting times aren't a good idea for DOFF crafting but I disagree. Having crafting incorporated in the DOFF system would essentially add a third option for gear acquisition in the game. We already have two fast options via outright dilithium purchase and crafting on the ground in Memory Alpha so adding in a slow crafting option with the DOFF system is a good alternative to those two features. If you incorporate the system in such a way that it offers a discount in resources by taking, say, a day or two to craft the item it could balance its self out. For the people who want the convenience of having it now, they can collect the components and go to Memory Alpha or outright buy it with dilithium. If you're not in a hurry or are a casual player send some Doffs to do the work. It allows for the hardcore grinders and farmers to have their gear immediately, at the cost of resources that they'll have an overabundance of anyway, while giving the casual player who doesn't grind Dilithium and EC a chance to get the same/similar gear at the expense of time and a lesser amount of resources.

    I don't really see it having much impact on the economy over what is already there since the time it takes to craft the items would cause a trickle effect, but I do see it adding more components into the auction house, which would help keep costs low. But to keep it from doing harm to the economy, a one item at a time limit could be placed on DOFF crafting. It could look something like this:

    Ship Components:
    Purple: 2 days
    Blue: 1 day
    green 12 hours

    Ground Components
    Purple: 1 day
    Blue: 12 hours
    Green: 6 hours

    The ground components taking less time because of the sheer number we need of them, heck they could even be cut in half again to have purple at 12 hours, blue at 6 hours, and green at 3 hours.

    A timing scheme like the one posted here could work well for DOFF based crafting, though it wasn't originally meant as a suggestion for DOFF crafting but one for removing the dilithium cost from crafting in general. A stand I agree with. Crafting shouldn't cost dilithium on top of everything else that's involved. It's already a time sink, there's no need to make it a dilithium sink too.

    Quoting so you don't have to leave to read it:
    Couldn't a simple "timer" been added instead to crafting instead based on Mark level?
    Like:
    No mark: 5 sec
    Mark I : 10 sec
    Mark II: 20 sec
    Mark III: 40 sec
    Mark IV: 180 sec =1 1/2 minute
    Mark V: 360 sec = 3 minutes
    Mark VI: 6 minutes
    Mark VII: 12 minutes
    Mark VIII: 24 minutes
    Mark IX: 48 Minutes
    Mark X 96 minutes = I hour 36 minutes
    mark XI: 192 minutes = 3 hours 12 minutes

    Then Rarity multiples that base time:
    Uncommon X2
    Rare x4
    Very Rare x8

    So a Very Rare Mark XI item would take 25 hours 36 minutes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    What if you were allowed to craft known recipes in your ship but not new items? So you have to go to the research facility to pick up the new weapons/shields/etc but you can make 4 of them or whatever in your ship?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Dilitium shouldn't have anything to do whit crafting. Posibly only to buy rare recipes.

    I am don't want crafting to fail that's just stupid there are other ways of making crafting difrent from a vendor! Crafting should be used to customize stats on items. So whit crafting you can make an item whit any stat rather than relying on vendors or drops to get them.

    The time gate cryptic desires can be made by a lockout period based on the rarity of the crafted item. 3 days for a purple 2 days for a blue 1 day for a green. White trash items can be crafted whitout a time delay to increase skils. However white consels should lock you out for about 12 hours.

    Whit your reverse engineering you could learn the basic schematic for a white trash item and higher MKs of the same item. The upgrades can than be bought for dilitium of engergy credits.

    To craft an item you first select the schematic and you will be charged the same amount they cost now then you select the MK and the price will increase accordingly. After that you chose the rareity and the price increases again, blue or purple will cost particle traces. Then you can put on the upgrades available to you. You push craft to craft the item and get locked out for the apropriate time.

    This is the best crafting system I can think up.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Certain high quality schematics costing some amount of dilithium might be easier to swallow. Possibly add these schematics as rare drops from STF bosses or from other enemies. Can also add them elsewhere in the game, possibly including explore missions where we salvage alien technology -- which rewards schematics and data samples, and sometimes rare schematics that would normally cost dilithium from vendors.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Taking feedback on the account how do you like the following?

    Personal gear and consumables can be crafted on your ship.
    Ship gear has to be crafted at a facility.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Jobeleca wrote:
    Taking feedback on the account how do you like the following?

    Personal gear and consumables can be crafted on your ship.
    Ship gear has to be crafted at a facility.

    Just have everything crafted from your ship. Memory alpha is where you buy new recipes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    going to memory alpha just for recipes would simply be annoying.

    I would love the convenience of on-ship crafting. The reason I'm not in favor of it is that STO is already a very solo heavy game and needs reasons for people to gather.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Jobeleca wrote:
    going to memory alpha just for recipes would simply be annoying.

    I would love the convenience of on-ship crafting. The reason I'm not in favor of it is that STO is already a very solo heavy game and needs reasons for people to gather.

    People would be more drawn together if missions were more designed to encurrage people to play together. That would also fix the problem that people go to stfs without knowing how to work together.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Jobeleca wrote:
    going to memory alpha just for recipes would simply be annoying.

    I would love the convenience of on-ship crafting. The reason I'm not in favor of it is that STO is already a very solo heavy game and needs reasons for people to gather.

    I see what you mean, but there's a difference between giving a reason to play together and making people go to one location to do stuff where they don't really interact anyway. Anytime I've ever been to Memory Alpha, especially lately, there have been tons of people standing around the same table with absolutely no local or zone chat or any obvious interaction for that matter. It really doesn't "bring people together" in any sort of productive way.

    Content that brings people together to interact is one thing, making people go somewhere for something that doesn't necessarily need to be exclusively at a hub in the first place is another. I can count on zero fingers the number of times I've seen an actual crafting conversation go on while I'm at Memory Alpha. The only time I've ever really seen people talk more than a couple of words was when the Diplo system went in and people were talking about the missions there.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    I've submitted my idea on this (and a lot of other topics if you want to check them out) to the Priority One podcast forum for game ideas.

    http://www.thequantumcafe.com/forum/community-submissions/1654-game-ideas-november-edition
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Should do the same for STOked. Or at least place a reference in this link here.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    I really like the idea of updating schematics to have a quality component and have them optionally available to purchase by dilithium as a compromise. I'd also really like to craft on my ship, just to give a reason to be there now that mission replay is available elsewhere.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    I would forgive a lot of the crafting changes if it were possible to make useful items at level. At RA/lh I can make Captain items. That's better than it was getting here. You have to waste an awful lot before crafting is worth anything.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited November 2011
    Rickpa, I leveled a character that crafted a lot and I was able to craft items that matched the rank I was at. If you are serious about crafting this isn't a problem, it's only people who do it a little bit here and there and I have no problem with their not leveling the items to match rank. I then sold most of what I made.

    It would be even better if you could deconstruct or reverse engineer items you crafted for crafting experience or getting resources back.
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