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Torpedo Revamp still needed

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Hello together i know there are already many of these discusions, but with a skill revamp on the horizon i think its a good time to rethink about the Torpedos.

Regardless of the fact that after the skillrevamp the skillcosts are equal the Torpedotype performance is not.

1. Quantum & Photons: they are the only ones worth to choose atm. They can stay as they are, Photons could need a little travelspeed increase.

2. Plasma: the damge output, travelspeed, cooldown all these thing are worse than Quantum/Photons. There no advantage in them and the HighYield is a waste of a shot.
I see different options to fix the HighYield issue:

a. Make the HeavyPlasma indestructable and for compesation keep the slow travelspeed plus a reduced lifetime so players could escape them.
b. Let them destructable but triple the travelspeed and make them to explode aoe when shot down.

3. Transphasic: These are totally useless even a photon has the same shield penetrating dps.
Suggestion:

a. Give them a very high crti. chance when used with HighYield or Spread
b. Increase the Shield Penetration to 50% or more
c. Increase the Damage to be equal to Quantums

4. Tricobalt: dps sucks, to vulnerable, to slow, much to long cooldown.
Suggestion:

Let them use HighYield and Spread:

a. HighYield, as above with Plasma make them indestructable slow moving short lifetime
b. Spread, doubled traveling speed, destrcutable, when shot down let them trigger something like a "subspace implosion" that have a very strong aoe suckin effect and detonates after 4 second dealing aoe damage.

5. Cronitons: They are nice beacause of their movement debuff
Suggestion: They could need a little improvement in damage and debuff chance.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I can only speak for Tricobalts really (and Plasma, since they're in the same boat), as they've been my bread and butter for quite a while now, but they've already added the ability to use Torp Spread and Torp High Yield to them (in tribble).

    The problem is the friendly fire AOE damage they do now. They travel way too slowly to be shot at anything less than 1km, and they do insane amounts of friendly fire at less than 1km.

    I agree, they either need to be made indestructable with a lifespan timer, or make them much faster, but destructible. The exact same goes for Plasma.

    I believe the Tricobalts do AOE damage when they are shot down, at least I know I've been blown up by my own tric when I fire one off and someone's running fire at will. Don't know if the AOE harms enemies, but it sure harms friendlies.

    Oh, and your comment of DPS sucks on the Tricobalts... Maybe. But I wouldn't even ask them to up the DPS, i feel that would make them overpowered. Currently they do pretty much the most damage of any torpedo type... if they can hit. Which is harder and harder to do with the recent changes, but if they hit the only thing that does more damage is a beam array with beam overload 3 doing a critical.

    They're supposed to be a precision weapon, fired at the right time, in the right place, not like a Photon, that should be fired as many times as possible due to the fast reload. IMHO, Tric DPS is fine where it is.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    currently quantum do the most burst and photons have the highest dps. were is there room for any other torpedo!? well lets see

    the basic plasma torp should do at least the same damage per hit that a photon does, and its fire proc should do the same damage as a standard non critical hit, over 10 seconds. so if the proc goes off it will effectively have done double damage

    a heavy plasma should only be damageable to a point, let it be damageable to 50%, at that point its to opaque to damage further and shots fired at it will just pass through it. the % of health it has left equals the % of original damage it will do.

    cronotons should have a chance to completely bypass shields, that's what its proc was in canon.

    transphasics should deal a varying amount of damage between current to more then quantum and deal varying shield penetrating damage between 10% and 50%. that's consistent to how they were explained in a novel

    cut the tricobalt cooldown in half, that it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I think the changes to the Tricobalt made them more useful, and actually I've been seeing more people use them on Tribble now.

    They have a stun effect along with the AOE and a repel, so they do A LOT more than just damage. Plus, they use spread now so you can hit multiple targets. And the high yield Tricobalt has the "rift" which is kind of like an extra Gravity Well which is nice.

    But yes, they are a precision weapon not a spam weapon, so they are best used in only certain instances.

    Plasma's work fine using the new spread feature, and from what I've noticed if you have multiple torpedo types Plasma always seems to be the first to fire for some reason. But it is effective with spread due to the plasma fire on multiple targets.

    Transphasics and Chronitons are still garbage and need fixing IMO.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    All beast are off with new system
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Chronotons aren't really used for damage. They have an incredibly powerful proc that is one of the best debuffs you can get. They don't need more damage or else they'll be over powered. Tricobalts didn't need anything (even before the bad bad bad changes with high yield, spread, and friendly fire) with the possible exception of a defense value so that people aiming to take them out could potentially miss.

    Torpedoes could use some work but those two are fine as they are.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    The only thing I want is for them to drastically lower, or just flat out remove global cooldowns. anything else is a bonus imo.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Grey80 wrote: »
    Hello together i know there are already many of these discusions, but with a skill revamp on the horizon i think its a good time to rethink about the Torpedos.

    Regardless of the fact that after the skillrevamp the skillcosts are equal the Torpedotype performance is not.

    1. Quantum & Photons: they are the only ones worth to choose atm. They can stay as they are, Photons could need a little travelspeed increase.

    2. Plasma: the damge output, travelspeed, cooldown all these thing are worse than Quantum/Photons. There no advantage in them and the HighYield is a waste of a shot.
    I see different options to fix the HighYield issue:

    a. Make the HeavyPlasma indestructable and for compesation keep the slow travelspeed plus a reduced lifetime so players could escape them.
    b. Let them destructable but triple the travelspeed and make them to explode aoe when shot down.

    3. Transphasic: These are totally useless even a photon has the same shield penetrating dps.
    Suggestion:

    a. Give them a very high crti. chance when used with HighYield or Spread
    b. Increase the Shield Penetration to 50% or more
    c. Increase the Damage to be equal to Quantums

    4. Tricobalt: dps sucks, to vulnerable, to slow, much to long cooldown.
    Suggestion:

    Let them use HighYield and Spread:

    a. HighYield, as above with Plasma make them indestructable slow moving short lifetime
    b. Spread, doubled traveling speed, destrcutable, when shot down let them trigger something like a "subspace implosion" that have a very strong aoe suckin effect and detonates after 4 second dealing aoe damage.

    5. Cronitons: They are nice beacause of their movement debuff
    Suggestion: They could need a little improvement in damage and debuff chance.

    I agree with all except the indestructable Plasma.
    I think Both the HY Plasma and the natural (or buffed) Tricobalt be made more resilant and much harder to kill.
    I also think the Tricobalt needs a big speed increase I can kill with my BO3/DBB target before my Tricobalt evens gets up to pseed.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I think that Cryptic just doesn't care that Transphasic and Chroniton torpedo damage is set so low as to make the useless. It's been like that since launch and nothing has been done. Look at the changes done so far. We now have Tricobalt capable of being used with skills, but still nothing done to Transphasic and Chroniton.

    The problem with these two torpedo types is this: 1) base dps is set too low, 2) multiplier when used with THY and TS is lower than with other torpedoes. So, you start with a lower base, and it gets multiplied by a smaller amount, resulting in a huge damage disparity when using skills (worse than when just firing without using them).

    Frankly I think the multiplier being lower on the skills is a bug, but I've put in bug reports and nothing has been fixed. And now on Tribble, once again, nothing is being done to change these torpedoes at alll. The attitude seems to be no one uses them, so why bother changing them? Go figure.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    In my opinion all the torpedo's need to be rebalanced to be roughly the same DPS or give sizeable benefits if they have other handicaps. Since Quantum is the torpedo everyone says is perfect it should be used as the baseline others are balanced against.

    I'm using purple mk XI borg weapons as the baseline as they represent the highest quality and have no dmg modifiers cept the quality to skew the results.

    Using quantum as a baseline. (mk xi) 8 sec cooldown - 3234 damage - 380dps

    Photon (mk XI) 6 sec cooldown - 2910 damage - 448dps
    Normally I would say photon are fine the one thing I would like to see is for them to be faster travel then the other torps.

    Plasma (mk XI) 8 sec cooldown - 2283 damage, 628 damage over 10 sec - 269dps not counting the plasma DoT proc - the proc chance and plasma proc damage on this torp is variable I think the normal and spread is 33% and the heavy is 50%.
    Plasma is kind of a odd duck as it's not easy to pinpoint exact benefits or shortcoming. However the damage compared to a quantum is noticably lacking and the unreliable proc chance doesn't help matters. Heavy torps are another problem child.
    I think the easiest solution is to increase the dmage to photon lvl but keep the proc damage the same. So it will do respectable damage most the time and IF it procs it has the chance to surpass quantum damage.

    Transphasic (mk XI) 10 sec cooldown - 2109 damage - 200dps - 20% shield penetration
    The problem with transphasics in my opion is the damage. It's damage is so low that even with the shield penetration a quantum can about equal the penetration damage because it gots so much damagemore damage more innately gets though and you got to consider the exposed hull as well. Where a quantum can equal or surpass a trans in shield penetration it can also dominate in exposed hull damage as well. So where does the transphasic's special property seem special not to mention the torp gots a longer recharge to boot.
    I think the magic number for this torps damage should be somewhere between a photon and quantum.

    Chroniton (mk XI) 10 sec cooldown - 2491 damage - 237dps - 33% turn rate and Flight Speed reduction Proc for 10 sec.
    The problem with this torp is that it takes along time to fire, it's damage isn't stellar, and it's proc is unreliable. I think increasing thus torps damage a bit above photon lvl and increasing the proc to 50% would go along way for this weapon, or keep the proc the same and up it toalmost quantum lvl damage.

    Tricobalt (mk XI) 60 sec cooldown - 8728 damage in 1km radius - 2 sec disable - +50 repel
    Now that they made this torp usable with torp skills and added the freindly fire issue this torp has tons of issues. The main ones being
    1: All torps are heavy and suffer the hinderance of heavy torps and the new freindly fire makes torp spread counterproductive for this torp as it is likely to destroy the other torps before they hit their targets.
    2: the new damage value is pathetic for the rediculous cooldown.
    I think the clear first solution is too reduce the cooldown. I think 20-25secs is reasonable as it's damage is about 2.5 that of a quantum. Another thing they could possible do is make the standard unbuffed and spread non destroyable cept by a special means(explained later)

    Heavy Torps are in bad shape mainly due to the fact they can be shoot down and destroyed so easily and the only somewhat reliable way to get them to hit is to get so close that when they do hit your very likely be hit with the explosion as well. Also they are very slow.
    In terms of speed I would like to see them start out slow (so if you are close to target you got time to turn away) then build up speed. Like when you fire they start at half speed, then two seconods later are at 75% speed, and a couple of seconds after that they at full speed.
    Another thing would be to reduce the number of things they are vulnerable too. I think giving them a invuln shield that will last till they gat up to full speed would help them reach targets and the only way around the invuln shield is to use one of the point defense consoles. Also add a 90% defence value on them when they are vulnerable since they are so small they would be hard to hit.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Triobalt wasn't bad before, but now it's worse, imho. Why would I put my own crew and my buddies at risk by letting one loose the way it is currently in Tribble?
    These torps suppose to be sophisticated in these advance period of time within 23-25th centuries, so why would 'Starfleet' be sending out their captains to use such weapons that puts their crew and their fellow allies at risk in battle? Is the dev of torpedo functionalities in this current concept in Tribble not want us to use Tricobalt hgh yld/sprd at all? I mean isn't their still a concept in that time period as 'Cone-damage-effects'? They got smart torpedoes in current modern navel warfares that apply 'Cone-damage-yields' effect that the principle of it is high yield damage in puncturing a hole at the enemy vessel's hull and also it keeps the blast effects from hitting their owns. Do we not have such in 23-25th centuries? Really?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Am I the only one here that thinks that Plasma torpedoes should deal Plasma damage and not kinetic? I mean... we have a damage flavor for what they are made of... make em deal Plasma to further differentiate them from other torps.
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