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How can we believe anything Cryptic says?

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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    psytce wrote: »
    You mean the people who put up money when they did not know if the game would succeed. Cryptic sold the LTS, they must now honor them. LTS are to be treated as a subscriber, whether or not they pay each month. If Cryptic didn't want to sell the LTS they didn't have to, it doesn't means that they start treating them like freeloaders. They are not, they put up the money at a time when Cryptic needed it. It was a risk, but you can't penalize them because they made a good purchase. The LTS is not a F2P player, they are a subscriber whether you like it or not!

    I never said they were penalized. I said they were the equivalent of free to play after two years, from an accounting perspective. They do get classified as a 'subscriber' for the life of the game, or as long as it is in service. But, that doesn't mean they are entitled to anything beyond what is already stated up front.

    Reality is, no monthly income from players utilizing services that cost money to maintain and provide = loss. Short term gain, long term loss. Thus, the need for a company to generate means of income to supplement the loss in order to stay in business and function.
    psytce wrote: »
    You have this arguement about real world prices going up & changing ..... This is not the real world. Look at what was said "Basically, nothing changes for Lifetime subscribers: They continue to have complete access to the same content, items and episodes the way they always have"
    The content is changed, the items have changed. No matter how you decide to look at it doesn't matter, the fact is it changed.

    I put in my money and I've supported this game since it started. All LTS have supported this game and All LTS paid there money. I just want what I paid for, that is the same access I have now, no changes to squeeze more cash out of me, I've already paid it.

    Actually it is the real world. Your arguments seem to want to try to steer it out of it. Companies don't last long if they're not making a profit, or at least breaking even. Perfect World and Cryptic are real companies, the player base are real customers, and the money exchanged between them is real currency. Thus, back to the statement I made about how companies change fees, rates, services, and levels of service as the business landscape changes. It's reality, and most businesses do it in some form or another.

    And, as pointed out in my previous post, it says "Basically", and is used in a context that gives it a meaning of generalization, and not specifics. But yet you keep using that as your 'fact'. And, interestingly, no comment about the portion of the page that quote is taken out of context from, indicating that everything stated there is subject to change. Most interesting.
    psytce wrote: »
    It really doesn't matter, you will say they aren't change it, I will say they are... We can go back and forth forever....

    I never said they weren't making any changes. I was pointing out the fact that the quote you use over and over again has wording that contradicts the implications you claim it states.
    psytce wrote: »
    But more of the customers see it my way than yours,

    You have statistical data to back that up? Or is it one of those made up "facts" on the fly to support whatever claim the author is making?
    psytce wrote: »
    and the customer is always right!

    Hardly. Using that inaccurate motto really weakens the whole argument.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    That's what happens when you drink a whole bottle of rum!:p

    Vodka or Single malt Scotch.

    Rum makes me all happy friendly and I usaully end up screaming "heave-To! and prepare to be boarded" alot while making bad decisions involving bodily harm.
    Ok, the bad decisions thing may be more of a constant.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Not to belittle people's feelings about the changes, but I just don't understand this sort of reaction, and I imagine that it will be closed very soon.

    But all of this "Cryptic is lying" stuff? Well, let me tell you a story about Star Wars Galaxies... well, not a story, because you all would get bored. Short version: they completely changed the game, and didn't even breath a word to the players until the change was going to happen. They completely killed off my favorite class, made the game into something I didn't enjoy.

    You know what I did when I found out I hated the game I played every day since the beginning? I quit playing. No rants, no flames, just quit. Because it's just a game folks, and we all have other things we can do.

    So relax, breathe, and if you still hate the changes, then stop playing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I never said they were penalized. I said they were the equivalent of free to play after two years, from an accounting perspective. They do get classified as a 'subscriber' for the life of the game, or as long as it is in service. But, that doesn't mean they are entitled to anything beyond what is already stated up front.

    Reality is, no monthly income from players utilizing services that cost money to maintain and provide = loss. Short term gain, long term loss. Thus, the need for a company to generate means of income to supplement the loss in order to stay in business and function.

    You are applying a concept or belief that since it costs x to play for a month, then the lts = freebie after a certain time. You don't get to pick and choose 'as ifs' or 'equivalents'.

    LTS paid for every day of this game. Up front. No ifs, ands, or buts.

    The liabilities entailed with such a sale is not the fault of the purchaser.

    The liabilities are on the seller.

    Any time you try to twist this concept around, telling or claiming that I've gotten my 'value out of the game, you are intentionally devaluing my purchase and you are lending moral support to Cryptic during a time in which they are trying to get rid of their liabilities.

    Cryptic sold LTS and they have to deal with it. As far as you defining the worth and 'value' of the game for me, thanks but no thanks.

    I value my lifetime subscription. I value the $600 I've spent here. Nothing members can say will truly detract from my purchases.

    Lastly, a little note to Cryptic:

    Hey Buddies! Your LTS page says 'More on the way', can you take it down since you haven't given LTS anything new since..............when was the last time we got an exclusive.......they gave the lame caprtains table to subs.....I don't even remember!

    Can't you just take down the 'more on the way'? Since LTS gets nothing new anyway, you could remove the blurb and I'll be happy! Thanks!!!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    brenatevi wrote: »
    Not to belittle people's feelings about the changes, but I just don't understand this sort of reaction, and I imagine that it will be closed very soon.

    But all of this "Cryptic is lying" stuff? Well, let me tell you a story about Star Wars Galaxies... well, not a story, because you all would get bored. Short version: they completely changed the game, and didn't even breath a word to the players until the change was going to happen. They completely killed off my favorite class, made the game into something I didn't enjoy.

    You know what I did when I found out I hated the game I played every day since the beginning? I quit playing. No rants, no flames, just quit. Because it's just a game folks, and we all have other things we can do.

    So relax, breathe, and if you still hate the changes, then stop playing.

    This is true to form for sure....while I can't stand a few things cryptic has come up with, at least they are trying in the respect of customer feedback (even though it is through a forum mostly).

    Generally I do enjoy the game very much and think they have done loads to make it more so. It's a great game, and they did a great job with it thus far.

    I just want them as well as others to understand that somethings just can't head in a direction that is detrimental to the games playability. I fear that this is the case sadly....will I continue to play? Imma a lifer...so sure....but in all fairness I cannot say the same for others.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Roach wrote: »
    Vodka or Single malt Scotch.

    Rum makes me all happy friendly and I usaully end up screaming "heave-To! and prepare to be boarded" alot while making bad decisions involving bodily harm.
    Ok, the bad decisions thing may be more of a constant.

    Bah.......real klingons drink anti-freeze.....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Sollaf wrote: »
    Bonus, Consols that can be equiped to other ships as you level up. Yes your galaxy can have a transwarp drive now. Also if you already have them then you get the consol for free.

    If I make a new character after F2P hits can I still buy the ship for EC? Yes/No. Truth/Lie.
    "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is." No it doesn't.

    I never said they were penalized. I said they were the equivalent of free to play after two years, from an accounting perspective.

    You have no idea how many people have bought LTS during the last year. It's pretty obvious they did not get their money's worth.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    You are applying a concept or belief that since it costs x to play for a month, then the lts = freebie after a certain time. You don't get to pick and choose 'as ifs' or 'equivalents'.

    LTS paid for every day of this game. Up front. No ifs, ands, or buts.

    The liabilities entailed with such a sale is not the fault of the purchaser.

    The liabilities are on the seller.

    Any time you try to twist this concept around, telling or claiming that I've gotten my 'value out of the game, you are intentionally devaluing my purchase and you are lending moral support to Cryptic during a time in which they are trying to get rid of their liabilities.

    Cryptic sold LTS and they have to deal with it. As far as you defining the worth and 'value' of the game for me, thanks but no thanks.

    I value my lifetime subscription. I value the $600 I've spent here. Nothing members can say will truly detract from my purchases.

    Lastly, a little note to Cryptic:

    Hey Buddies! Your LTS page says 'More on the way', can you take it down since you haven't given LTS anything new since..............when was the last time we got an exclusive.......they gave the lame caprtains table to subs.....I don't even remember!

    Can't you just take down the 'more on the way'? Since LTS gets nothing new anyway, you could remove the blurb and I'll be happy! Thanks!!!

    Thus its why I said "for accounting purposes"... which doesn't mean customer perception of value. Two very different things, and not sure why you tried to equate them.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Thus its why I said "for accounting purposes"... which doesn't mean customer perception of value. Two very different things, and not sure why you tried to equate them.

    You opened that ugly door. When you do, all sorts of nasty things can find their way out.

    You may have said 'for accounting purposes', the implication however, doesn't. By opening that door, you are in some small way llending credence to Cryptic's hope that we indeed, have gotten our money's worth. Then they can march off to board meetings and reviews and honestly state, "The player base is mixed on X"

    When you hear chilling things from Devs such as 'The silent majority', the last thing you need is to open the door.

    p.s. I note that you didn't respond in any way to my comment to the devs, which counters your argument that LTS doesn't deserve anything more. The website claims that LTS has 'More on the way' and it has since launch.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    You opened that ugly door. When you do, all sorts of nasty things can find their way out.

    You may have said 'for accounting purposes', the implication however, doesn't. By opening that door, you are in some small way llending credence to Cryptic's hope that we indeed, have gotten our money's worth. Then they can march off to board meetings and reviews and honestly state, "The player base is mixed on X"

    When you hear chilling things from Devs such as 'The silent majority', the last thing you need is to open the door.

    Um, no. Accounting and customer perception of value are two very different things on different end of the spectrum. Not sure what door was opened, other than the one to irrelevant comparison? And not really sure how making an irrelevant comparison would be viewed as a significant point to bolster a side of discussion?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    psytce wrote: »
    Not all consoles can be used with other ships, the Defiant refit has a cloaking console and it can only be used with the Defiant and the Galaxy X, which also get the same console. they also did not give the extra console slot in the defiant refit...... So even thought they are moving powers to console it is really a little stupid when it can only be used with the 2 different ships it comes with.....

    My defiant retrofit recived an extra eng slot. (I converted my VA over so now I have two VA tacts...)

    I also understand some of the consols being bound to a class of ship (I wasn't talking about them), these are endgame ships that have a power that the canon ship had. I.E, the Defiant in DS9 could cloak, it was the only ship in the fleet that could (not even other Defiants could), so it makes since that the cloak, (which is banned in the federation) would be only for the two ships to ever be shown in the prime univers canon to cloak, The Galaxy Retofit (Dreadnaught), and the Defiant.

    It would be cool to have the Phenoix's phase cloak though. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    castogere wrote: »
    Bah.......real klingons drink anti-freeze.....

    Chech'tluth then? 30 shot minimum No passing out or You lose a finger tip and buy the next round.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Um, no. Accounting and customer perception of value are two very different things on different end of the spectrum. Not sure what door was opened, other than the one to irrelevant comparison? And not really sure how making an irrelevant comparison would be viewed as a significant point to bolster a side of discussion?

    The comparison to YOU is irrelevant.

    Choosing to deem another members personal value judgements as irrelevant because you don't see the relationship between two arguments is rather obtuse behavior. But hey, whatever floats your boat.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Roach wrote: »
    I'm starting to believe none of this is real and I'm gonna wake up in a alley somewhere.....

    Pray its not near the Cryptic building or you may be missing a kidney.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    psytce wrote: »
    Hundreds of post about the same thing and all we get is silence .....

    That's because there's nothing they can say that could in any way justify this. The changes made are obviously unpopular with a sizable contingent of the forum-goers and they don't sit too well with those that are paying attention but not posting that I have spoken to in game. The ones that I can almost feel sorry for are those that are not paying attention to what's going on with tribble that are going to be royally ticked off when this goes live. I say "almost". I can't truly feel sorry for them since the information and warnings are here for everyone to see. Honestly, I think going f2p like this is going to hurt STO as much as going f2p helped CO.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Sollaf wrote: »
    My defiant retrofit recived an extra eng slot. (I converted my VA over so now I have two VA tacts...)

    I also understand some of the consols being bound to a class of ship (I wasn't talking about them), these are endgame ships that have a power that the canon ship had. I.E, the Defiant in DS9 could cloak, it was the only ship in the fleet that could (not even other Defiants could), so it makes since that the cloak, (which is banned in the federation) would be only for the two ships to ever be shown in the prime univers canon to cloak, The Galaxy Retofit (Dreadnaught), and the Defiant.

    It would be cool to have the Phenoix's phase cloak though. :)

    OK ..... You are right when I first saw it i was thinking the refit was 3-2-4, but it was 2-2-4 ..... But I would still like to be able to use it on other ships. The photonic one that comes with the Rhode Island is usable in all Science ships..... It just seems a little silly to make it a console when it cannot be used elsewhere.

    As far as my other topics in this thread, I am not going to post anymore because I do not what this to become a flame fest. Although it has been civil so far the post are getting closer & closer to the edge, so I'm stopping my part here.....

    Thanks!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Lastly, a little note to Cryptic

    :...Can't you just take down the 'more on the way'? Since LTS gets nothing new anyway, you could remove the blurb and I'll be happy! Thanks!!! [/COLOR]

    I'm getting tired of seeing this one. The same people that complain about the "more on the way" line are also the ones who like to take some quote from a dev, and over analyze to support how they've been wronged.

    For all you know more is on the way. It doesn't say more on the way this week or this year. It just says more on the way. So since we're nitpicking here you can't call BS until the game shuts down with out delivering that "more" that was said to be "on the way".
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Well like most I am really upset with all these major changes sure they are on tribble but the point being this game should not have changed this much just because it went F2P. I am upset that Gold members get squat, why not give us the VA token for ships back, give us gold members more to feel unique. Right now gold and silver are almost the same hmm problem there. The Economy does need work as they say they are doing but to make users buy ships that were once free or make someone fork out $30 for 1 ship is not a good deal. Most of us are on fixed incomes and more are being added as our real life economy is suffering.
    I can see my Dstahl really left as all his hard work was walked all over. I love this game as I love Star trek and for a company to make serious changes knowing they are messing the game up then this is totally sad.
    I just hope someone will make a Star trek game where they actually listen to their user base and not just ignore us at times when they should be listening.
    Sure Lifetime members most have already passed their date of breaking even but is that to say once that date comes we are no longer useful? Does that mean that the $200 we forked out upfront was just that, so you gave us your money now in so many months you will no longer be useful.
    I am sorry but to me I am getitng sick and tired of people saying that about us, We were the loyal bunch that helped up front and were promised more is on the way then we are told nope sorry you will be right there will silver and get nothing..........
    I want STO back to where people played and did not argue over things like this. I want us all to get along and play a great game without all these So called changes that could and might ruin it for STO.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I am going to one of the few that will love the extra challenges will place in front of me, i was getting tired of every little thing catered for. A little work for what i want per toon wont phase me in the slightest.

    as Robert Heilien once said.

    "There is no such thing as a free lunch!"
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    The comparison to YOU is irrelevant.

    Choosing to deem another members personal value judgements as irrelevant because you don't see the relationship between two arguments is rather obtuse behavior. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

    Sorry but I was saying trying to equate the mathematics of accounting to the perception each individual has of value is irrelevant. I was not saying anyone's own level of value were. The latter is highly subject to personal taste, desire, etc... and thus is going to be different from person to person. The former is pretty much cold, hard numbers. Two very different things.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    psytce wrote: »
    As far as my other topics in this thread, I am not going to post anymore because I do not what this to become a flame fest. Although it has been civil so far the post are getting closer & closer to the edge, so I'm stopping my part here.....

    Thanks!

    You mean the "other topics" that point out the inaccuracies in your statements? Hardly a flame fest.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Roach wrote: »
    Chech'tluth then? 30 shot minimum No passing out or You lose a finger tip and buy the next round.

    Agree'd...and also the first to pass out gets the special title in game of Nancy boy
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I am going to one of the few that will love the extra challenges will place in front of me, i was getting tired of every little thing catered for. A little work for what i want per toon wont phase me in the slightest.

    as Robert Heilien once said.

    "There is no such thing as a free lunch!"


    Ok granted.....and I agree, for the most part there is some truly fine ideas coming into this next major build of F2P....I will concede that.

    Still some aspects of the ideals implemented are just detrimental to the player base....I don't mind working for what I have.....I do mind if I have to lay down a couple of jacksons just to do so.....i paid for my sub already in spades.....shouldn't have to cough up more because someone thought it was a good idea to do so.

    Im looking for balance and fairness here....and a few tiny aspects of this build in testing just does not reflect that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    castogere wrote: »
    Agree'd...and also the first to pass out gets the special title in game of Nancy boy

    Awesome! Pig-tails and frilly dress as well? Might as well go old school.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Roach wrote: »
    Awesome! Pig-tails and frilly dress as well? Might as well go old school.

    I was actually thinking tights and a tutu....dancing in ferengi ballet shoes and rubbing ears in Quark's
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I would just like to say that Dan Stahl leaving was probably the best thing that happened to the game. In celebration of his departure I bought C-Store points.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    castogere wrote: »
    I was actually thinking tights and a tutu....dancing in ferengi ballet shoes and rubbing ears in Quark's

    Sounds good. Its not a competition unless some one losses in a funny way for all to enjoy.
    I think the pig tails are must have though.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    psytce wrote: »
    I don't see why they are doing all of this. When they made Champions F2P there was NO CHANGE in anything for the subscribers. One day it was a subscription Game, the next it was F2P. There were no items that they were getting for free before the switchover that when into the C-Store, But we are having at least 5 items going into the C-Store right off that bat.

    Did you even play Champions because this is just false. I had my favorite Champions character reduces to nothing. His skills were gone or changed to be totally different. It was many months before I even bothered to reskill him up as best as possible and it's still no where near the character it was. Much more significant change than anything close to what's been proposed so far for STO. But like is happening in STO, while this happened with F2P it wasn't because of F2P.

    People seem to confuse changes that occur to make it F2P and changes that occur with F2P because it's a good time to make big changes that are wanted. For example, the combined currencies (dilithium) has been something that's been talked about long before F2P. F2P conversion is just a good opportunity to make much needed structural changes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Sollaf wrote: »
    the Defiant in DS9 could cloak, it was the only ship in the fleet that could (not even other Defiants could), so it makes since that the cloak, (which is banned in the federation) would be only for the two ships to ever be shown in the prime univers canon to cloak, The Galaxy Retofit (Dreadnaught), and the Defiant.

    Actually I think its more that the Galaxy-x and Defiant were the only ships that were designed to cloak when they were put in the game and adding the ability to other ships would probably involve having to mke changes to them which would likely cost time and money, the same with the other retrofit abilities except the Excelsior.
    Galeforce wrote:
    I think going f2p like this is going to hurt STO as much as going f2p helped CO.

    Funny you should mention that, but when disscusion about STO going F2P started after CO went F2P didn't
    Dstahl tell us they would be using CO's F2P model on STO when it went F2P? Becuase it sure doesn't look like their doing that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Inspired wrote: »
    For example, the combined currencies (dilithium) has been something that's been talked about long before F2P. F2P conversion is just a good opportunity to make much needed structural changes.

    Except nobody wanted them to add it to crafting or add a limit that can only be gotten around if the pay REAL money to do so.
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