Causal player are going to spend weeks grinding for equipment that is only a few percent better than white (common) equipment? This game isn't catering to hardcore MMORPG players. It's (trying) catering to Star Trek fans. What's nothing for you make be enough to turn off other players to stop playing STO. And that would be bad for everyone.
Nothing is stopping the "casual" player from doing at least 1 mission every time they play to get a bit more dilithium. The time investment IN GAME is the same for all.
They can also buy them off the AH or have a friend give them something.
Sorry, but if this "grind" is an issue, they should go play Call of Duty or something.
Of what we have seen thus far, the game is not changing in ways favorable to old players. The game isn't changing in ways that make subscribers want to stay subscribed. That is frustrating because we are the ones that got it this far, and now the game we paid for and loved is being turned upside down. Yes a lot can change before f2p launch, but the changes I see are not indicative of good changes that make me want to spend more money on the game.
So maybe I'm spoiled, but you know what, that's what I paid for.
No change is ever in favor of the old players. So we have a choice. We can keep things where they are...stale and not moving anywhere.. or take a short term hit and get long term gains.
Either way, these changes are coming. So you can either deal with them, and wait for the long term benefits...or jump ship.
This game needs new blood and new financial injections so we can get some content. If this is what it takes so we can get it.. I am for it.
Frankly if you think things are great as they are in the game right now,....
One additional difference that appears to have been overlooked is that Raid gear tends to be some how unique or special. At the very least there is usually a defining visual, but more frequently there are new process effects, boosts to abilities or special clicky powers.
STO gear is dull. The top level gear we can craft is the exact same as the gear we can get from drops in the tutorial. The only differences are small incremental increases in the numerical values. This is not interesting and does not engender the desire to jump through hoops and grind. All that work for what feels like the base level equipment any captain would be due.
Finally, the most serious aspect to all of this is if they add full Mk XII gear. Mk XI was a bit sketcy, but acceptable since we were VA. MK XII is power creep and increasing the gear ceiling to drive spending in the new system. All your old Mk XI gear becomes obsolete, so you need to burn your Dilithium and materials right away.
Finally, the most serious aspect to all of this is if they add full Mk XII gear. Mk XI was a bit sketcy, but acceptable since we were VA. MK XII is power creep and increasing the gear ceiling to drive spending in the new system. All your old Mk XI gear becomes obsolete, so you need to burn your Dilithium and materials right away.
I play on live with Mk X Purples, from before the Mk XI gear was introduced. I often out perform, or at least as do as well as, people who have Mk XI gear, just by the simple fact that it still comes down to performance, strategy, and just general approach to playing.
Would I do better if I had full XI or even XII gear? Well, yes, certainly. But that doesn't mean that I am not doing well with 'inferior' gear.
This actually raises another interesting point; a lot of people are saying that the odd-marked 'free' crafting gear is bad, or that if you use anything other than purples then you are unable to play the game. I think the very notion is ridiculous.
I often use 'under valued' gear, and do well for myself. Yes, the other gear is 'better' - but the difference is marginal that it doesn't matter for almost all the content in the game.
Will upgrading from Mk X to XII matter if, say, I want to do the Elite level content? Well, sure, because I'm doing elite level content.
Will Mk X to Mk XII make a difference if I am expecting to take PVP seriously? Yes, but, again, I am trying to play competitively, where something like optimized skill placement, which makes a minor difference in regular play, makes the whole world of difference.
I don't disagree with Cryptic's belief that dilithium is a major non-issue for casual players. Do you WANT the shiny maximum level purples and blues? Certainly. Do you NEED them to be able to play the game without suffering? No.
You just need gear that's in your gear range, and ideally with some 'stats' on it. You can easily get them, the odd-mark items are craftable, and easily obtainable as drops.
Again, my real thought is that the problem here is that the value of dilithium is being under-estimated by the developers a bit, in the sense that I think they are undervaluing the time-investment/cost-investment of the anomaly bits, and that it is not presenting as a worthwhile alternative to just purchasing the vendor alternatives.
I hate to say this... because some of the changes hit me hard as well...
But.. 2 weeks is NOTHING in the world of MMO's to get top gear.
In WoW I had worked for MONTHS to get my DK geared up with all top gear. That was tons of 7+ hour raids several times a week, dailies, arenas,...
Man... 2 weeks of casual gaming is NOTHING to complain about.
Do a 40 man run with a bunch of people lagging and just not knowing what they are doing..and be dependent on them winning to get your gear.. IF you win the roll.
NOT FUN.
This is really no big deal
Frankly, I feel we have been spoiled in how easy it is to get gear in this game.
Now, the gear will mean something.
^^This^^
I agree with everything this posted said...EXCEPT.. without significant end game content doing the same 7missions or so, and the occasiona PvP, and STF (the same 4 stfs) over and over and over... will get old real fast. especially if it takes MONTHS to get Rare level gear.
I have nothing against having to work for a few months to get Purple gear. Kinda makes it worth it and gives it value vs. every VA having Purple gear. But to have a very limited amount of ways to get dilithium... Im sure the Devs realize this sucks and are working on it.
I agree with everything this posted said...EXCEPT.. without significant end game content doing the same 7missions or so, and the occasiona PvP, and STF (the same 4 stfs) over and over and over... will get old real fast. especially if it takes MONTHS to get Rare level gear.
I have nothing against having to work for a few months to get Purple gear. Kinda makes it worth it and gives it value vs. every VA having Purple gear. But to have a very limited amount of ways to get dilithium... Im sure the Devs realize this sucks and are working on it.
Keep in mind STFs give even better purples and Rewards aka borg salvage and such. Even if every VA has normal old purple gear only less then 10% will have the Raid Purple gear, so it evens out. You still have to work if you want the best, and Im referring to the Elite Forces gear.
Nope, you are telling yourself this. I was showing you what a REAL grind is. You are not getting what I am saying, hence, as my previous post, you are just not going to get it... at all.
I am going to agree that you are dead wrong. That is what I agree to. Sorry, but you don't know what a grind is,..and if you think that this even comes close to one that is worth mentioning across the industry, I don't know what to tell you any more.
When did I ever say I wanted the grind to be exactly the same as other games? I am simply stating this "grind" is so tiny and so unmentionable compared to the industry as a whole, I have to LOL every single time somebody complains about it. Frankly the only people who I can imagine really complaining are those who have never played another MMO ... EVER... and have no idea still how easy this is.
Frankly, I don't care if they don't like that it takes a bit longer. This will help keep the economy in check... a thing that has grown WILDLY out of control.
You keep missing the point so far, you are throwing at the wall opposite of the dartboard. How many times do I have to say that I in FACT DO play other MMO's. The fact that you think that this "grind" is even comparable to ANY of these games is so massively HILARIOUS that this whole post should be saved for an internet comedy routine.
You jump so far outside the realms of reason in this last paragraph that I don't even know where to start. You assume I want this game to be a clone of some other game. No...I never said that. I never inferred that and I never implied that. You are whining about a step to keep the game's economy solid and can't grasp how minor... EPICALLY minor this "grind is" compared to every MMO pretty much ever made.
You just don't get it.
I don't think you ever will.
No. YOU don't get it. You aren't understanding a single thing I'm saying.
Look. I get it. WoW is hard. STO is easy. I understand that.
I WANT STO TO STAY EASY.
That is what I am saying. I like playing the easy game of STO. I like easy. I am a casual gamer.
As far as I can possibly tell you think we're all spoiled and that this game should be hard.
If YOU want to play a hard MMO, go play a goddamn hard MMO. We want to play an MMO so we're going to play an easy MMO.
You know what, I'm done. I've tried to be as civil as possible, but you haven't ever directly responded to this point I keep repeating to you every single post. And I am sick and tired of being called a spoiled brat by someone who is loudly proclaiming he wants us "brats" to have to do more work and is thus directly admitting he wants to ruin our fun. So I'm done. Call me whatever you want, but if you won't listen to a word I say then expect me to do the same.
No change is ever in favor of the old players. So we have a choice. We can keep things where they are...stale and not moving anywhere.. or take a short term hit and get long term gains.
Either way, these changes are coming. So you can either deal with them, and wait for the long term benefits...or jump ship.
This game needs new blood and new financial injections so we can get some content. If this is what it takes so we can get it.. I am for it.
Frankly if you think things are great as they are in the game right now,....
What long term gains? Like every other Perfect World game you'd have to spend $100 a month to be competitive. I wouldnt be able to afford any of the "long term gains" anyways.
Financial injections? Where the hell do you think that is going to come from.....? YOU.... You wanna spend MORE than $15 a month on STO? That is what it is going to cost you when this abomination goes live.
Ya. I think the game on Holodeck is great right now....
If YOU want to play a hard MMO, go play a goddamn hard MMO. We want to play an MMO so we're going to play an easy MMO.
I agree with your whole post, but I especially agree with this part. There are plenty of "hard mode" MMOs out there. Pick any perfect world game and try to play free or even for $15 a month. See how easy it is when the end game is open-world PVP and people are running around with $1000 combat pets....
Dont want to count F2P mmos? Okay, I read somewhere a group is making an "EQ Classic" server. Just EQ, Kunark and Velious Xpacs. Go enjoy the longest grind ever to grace gaming. I did it when EQ first came out. Now you can too!
Plenty of options available to someone looking for a painful MMO. But STO (On Holodeck right now) is one of the RARE FEW MMOs that dont believe you'll stay loyal by causing pain, agony and sever trauma to its player.
I dunno where that lousy Brad McQuaid came up with the idea that "If you make them suffer HARD, they will pay forever!" but that concept is what many MMOs run on.
I hate to say this... because some of the changes hit me hard as well...
But.. 2 weeks is NOTHING in the world of MMO's to get top gear.
In WoW I had worked for MONTHS to get my DK geared up with all top gear. That was tons of 7+ hour raids several times a week, dailies, arenas,...
Man... 2 weeks of casual gaming is NOTHING to complain about.
Do a 40 man run with a bunch of people lagging and just not knowing what they are doing..and be dependent on them winning to get your gear.. IF you win the roll.
NOT FUN.
This is really no big deal
Frankly, I feel we have been spoiled in how easy it is to get gear in this game.
Now, the gear will mean something.
Here, here, May be all those whiners will stop their moaning now!!!
That is what I am saying. I like playing the easy game of STO. I like easy. I am a casual gamer.
As far as I can possibly tell you think we're all spoiled and that this game should be hard.
I can say yes,.. you are all spoiled. No, the game will not become hard. This "grind" is nothing. They are trying to keep the economy in check. Bottlenecks like this will keep it in line.
If YOU want to play a hard MMO, go play a goddamn hard MMO. We want to play an MMO so we're going to play an easy MMO.
I do play those hard MMO's. I don't know how many times I have to tell this to you. You seem to ignore that statement every time I post it. But this is a change that is needed. The economy is going to balance itself out this way. Sorry, but if you don't want to do this..then don't craft. Problem solved for you.
You know what, I'm done. I've tried to be as civil as possible, but you haven't ever directly responded to this point I keep repeating to you every single post. And I am sick and tired of being called a spoiled brat by someone who is loudly proclaiming he wants us "brats" to have to do more work and is thus directly admitting he wants to ruin our fun. So I'm done. Call me whatever you want, but if you won't listen to a word I say then expect me to do the same.
You are spoiled. You cannot see the bigger picture. You are stuck in the "ME ME ME ME ME ME NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW" mode of thinking. There are other factors here that you won't even look at, because it would shatter your whole argument.
We may be spoiled. But the MAJORITY of the players are here because this isnt the A-Typical Grindfest MMO. Take that way. Its a Space MMO not Star Trek Online.
Bash, hate, be ignorant if you need be. But understand, this is a different type of MMO community than most. Taking that element away is not a positive thing, it is a negative one.
Because this helps keep the economy in check. Think about it a bit and you will understand how and why.
There are better ways to keep the economy in check than putting a dilithium gate on crafting. In wow this would be the same as requiring 2,000 valor points to craft an epic. The devs are not looking at the crafting system through the lens of the reality on tribble. My VA on tribble has less than 100k ec. This is because there are a lot of doff missions that require EC and very few that pay ec (well, its not that they don't exist but only getting a few hundred ec per mission while other missions cost a few thousand or commodities. Trade missions aren't counted because except on a critical success the prices are a wash). It is also because we no longer get ec for missions, the entirety of our income is based on selling gear we find/outgrow. So on holodeck ec has a diminished, almost nonexistent role, but on tribble ec does have value.
If the devs want to slow down the acquisition of purple gear that's fine. Make purple items on a 7 day cooldown, up the material cost to 30 samples of each type for a purple. Just take away the dilithium tax. Its absurd.
Originally Posted by Jaruslothran
Because this helps keep the economy in check. Think about it a bit and you will understand how and why.
Maybe you should actually take the time to explain this, show the math, etc.
One thing I'll admit, however, is that the crafting in STO is infinitely easier than other MMOs (I once raised my craft skill from 0 to max in a day). The only problem i see with the added dilithium cost is that it appears to cost way too much at higher levels. The dilithium cost for crafting an item is 50% of the full price. that's not very reasonable when factoring in the rarity of the particle traces already required for purples. If adding a dilithium cost is really necessary, bring the cost down to 10-25%.. another possible solution would be to raise the refining cap on dilithium based on a player's rank, though I'd rather it be ablolished in the first place.
another possible solution would be to raise the refining cap on dilithium based on a player's rank, though I'd rather it be ablolished in the first place.
Agreed whole heartedly. Raise the cap or eliminate this. Don't try to force us to pay you even more on top of a sub.
People are feeling forced to buy c points to trade for dilithium because of the absurd tax on crafting. At a refinement cap of 8k per day it would take over 3 days to get the dilithium to craft 1 item at VA. So while cryptic isn't flat out charging them to craft it still has the same effect
Simple test to check any F2P game to see if its a scam or not.
Do you have to pay MORE than $15 to play competitively?
If yes, then Scam = True
The industry standard on a subscription game where you are on the same level playing field as all your paying peers is $15 per month.
Of all the Perfect World titles, show me ONE where you can play competitively for $15 a month. Show your character stats, screenshots and tell your story. Because you'd be lying.... Perfect World games are free to try out, then you reach a certain point and you must pay or FAIL HARD. But the problem isnt the fact that you have to pay, the problem is HOW MUCH your expected to pay.
Of course they are entitled to a profit, but check out Ether Saga or Battle of the Immortals. Figure out what kinda money you need to spend to survive the high end open-pvp game.... Look at what your peers are bringing to the fight. Calculate the time and money you'd need to match that. People have pets worth over $1000 in those games. Those pets can single handedly slay an army of "free players". You as a human being will only live up to 110 years, calculate if there is any chance you can earn one of those $1000 pets (Without spending money) before you die of natural causes..... You cant. Figure out how long it would take you while only spending the industry standard $15 a month..... You'd have to play that game the next decade to pull it off.
They are converting Star Trek to a $100 a month or more to be competitive game. This isnt about grinding, your tiny little human life isnt long enough to grind out the stuff in game, your supposed to spend..... Spend MORE than $15 a month....
I should point out that in Forsaken World, while you could theoretically have to pay a lot of money to stay competitive at all levels at gameplay, you could also just hit max level and start working on dailies for the required gems and augementations for your gear.
You can entirely play for free to gear yourself up after you've hit cap. You, obviously, would expedite the process by putting in cash, but you don't have to.
LIkewise, with STO, if you want to gear up the best gear you can at all levels, then, sure, you'd probably be buying dilithium. But *why*. It's so easy to reach max level in this game, gearing up in all blues or purples every single time you get a new ship is such a waste of your time.
Even if you level slowly, you'd have more than ample time to get the dilithium you need for your tier to outfit your gear. Just never do episodes, and just do dailies. You'll be more than capable of getting the dilithium in a week or so of just logging in once a day for an hour or two, and still getting your gear, and still not being at max level. Why you would do that with the way the skill system is set up makes no sense; because the skill system means that not leveling is already not making you competitive.
By that note - what do you consider 'competitive'? Arguably, you are only competitive when you are on the same best footing as anyone else. That means you have to be rank 10 of whatever rank you are, or max level. At which point, just the simple act of *doing missions* will push you to the next rank, at which you are no longer 'competitive' for your bracket.
Therefore, 'being competitive' *only matters at max level*. At which point the ability to get dilithium and or gear increases drastically, with the ability to get dilithium AND GEAR through STFs, as well as the added salvage/tech drop system that is in place for running STFs right now.
You can play all of these things WITHOUT PAYING MONEY. You do not need to pay to craft at this stage - the craftables are comparable or less than efficient as the gear you get for doing dungeons.
Arguably, this actually means that dilithium is comparatively worthless at the stage where it matters the most. Ostensibly, you should be using dilithium to gear yourself, where you have the least number of options to gear, and it should supplement the gearing process at max level.
As it is, dilithium is most difficult to get at low levels when you most want it, and becomes easiest to get at high levels where you no longer really need it. There's a reason why people are gearing up through STFs - it's because you can just keep doing them and keep making progress, and you get loot out of them in the process.
As a result of this, I would actually say that Dilithium fails to do the job it intends to do, because of the current spread of availability makes it so that you have it when you don't want it, and when you really want it, you can't get it.
Because this helps keep the economy in check. Think about it a bit and you will understand how and why.
Please do explain in detail how it will keep the economy in check.
If people complain NOW about inflated prices on the exchange, wait till the supply of crafted items dries up, replaced by less desirable odd mark equipment! Odd mark items may suffice for leveling, however nothing can be made without dilithium past mk 7.
New players will have a harder time getting equipment, regardless. Droprates are terrible, especially so with faster leveling, which means even less stuff on the exchange. It is a PITA to get cannons for escorts as you level, for example, even on Holodeck.
You will no longer be able to go run a few sets of exploration missions to get some decent equipment for your ship as you level. You have to buy it off the exchange or waste dilithium on overpriced exploration gear, which in the end means higher exchange prices.
Exchange prices are going to rise. No question about it.
We want options so we dont HAVE to give the $$ but instead can work for the items...
A compromise is to make the item work a bit harder than farming the traces, which is boring beyond belief... but still able to shortcut with dilithium if you want to
Here's my full suggestion. (Warning its a bit long)
If the devs want to slow down the acquisition of purple gear that's fine. Make purple items on a 7 day cooldown, up the material cost to 30 samples of each type for a purple. Just take away the dilithium tax. Its absurd.
So, people here are complaining about basically 1 weapon made every 2 days.. so the solution is.... 1 weapon every 7?
Maybe you should actually take the time to explain this, show the math, etc.
One thing I'll admit, however, is that the crafting in STO is infinitely easier than other MMOs (I once raised my craft skill from 0 to max in a day). The only problem i see with the added dilithium cost is that it appears to cost way too much at higher levels. The dilithium cost for crafting an item is 50% of the full price. that's not very reasonable when factoring in the rarity of the particle traces already required for purples. If adding a dilithium cost is really necessary, bring the cost down to 10-25%.. another possible solution would be to raise the refining cap on dilithium based on a player's rank, though I'd rather it be ablolished in the first place.
The math is not even needed. If you are limited to making one weapon every 2 days, instead of flooding the market with dozens of weapons a day, the price of the weapons made hold a greater value, being a limited resource. Furthermore spending dilithium crafting removes the dilithium from the economy and that will effect things such as buying C-Store credits from other players and things. Now there is a choice to be made and a value to the choices.
That is the basics. Hard numbers... nobody could provide them. The system is not even live yet.
People are feeling forced to buy c points to trade for dilithium because of the absurd tax on crafting. At a refinement cap of 8k per day it would take over 3 days to get the dilithium to craft 1 item at VA. So while cryptic isn't flat out charging them to craft it still has the same effect
No, they are forcing nothing. You have a choice.
1) Pay real money for C-store points and get dilithium
2) Stop wanting to have it now now now now now and take a bit longer to get what you want... without spending money
Please do explain in detail how it will keep the economy in check.
If people complain NOW about inflated prices on the exchange, wait till the supply of crafted items dries up, replaced by less desirable odd mark equipment! Odd mark items may suffice for leveling, however nothing can be made without dilithium past mk 7.
New players will have a harder time getting equipment, regardless. Droprates are terrible, especially so with faster leveling, which means even less stuff on the exchange. It is a PITA to get cannons for escorts as you level, for example, even on Holodeck.
You will no longer be able to go run a few sets of exploration missions to get some decent equipment for your ship as you level. You have to buy it off the exchange or waste dilithium on overpriced exploration gear, which in the end means higher exchange prices.
Exchange prices are going to rise. No question about it.
And on the flip side, a dedicated crafter can also make more money by selling the rarer items. The story goes both ways. There is always the buyer and the seller. The fact is this: The market will be more stable overall. Furthermore, they should add a tax to items on the AH, for those morons who use it as a bank or put up items for a ridiculous price. This as well would help keep the prices in check. Nobody is going to put a white officer up for 999,999,999 energy credits with a 10% cost to put up. They would break themselves in minutes.
But the flow of items will be put in check. That always helps stabilize an economy.
2) Stop wanting to have it now now now now now and take a bit longer to get what you want... without spending money
There is a choice. There is no force.
See, I'm sorry but this is a load of TRIBBLE.
Again I'll cite the other PW games that I have played as an example. People get away with saying "you dont have to pay you can earn it in game" if there is even a 1 in 1,000,000,000 chance of getting something without paying. There were all kinds of "cash shop" items that "might" drop in world events in other PWE games. Of course only 1 might drop over several months, and then only to ONE player.
Saying you can just earn things in a game when realistically you CANT is dancing the edge of a flat out lie. You know it, but you "escape" from being a liar based on a "technicality". Technically you can get the stuff without paying real money. In reality you're stupid pitiful human lifespan is only a mere 110 years at most. Just like you will not be "winning" enough items to make your perfect pet in other PWE games, you will NOT be grinding for a year to fit out one ship and away team properly.
You know this. Your skating along the edge of a technicality by saying you dont need dilithium. The truth is I DONT need Dilithium on the Holodeck right now. I will need Dilithium when this abomination goes live. There is no realistic way to play this game competitively without dilithium after it goes live.
I can not OPT OUT. I can not use my lifetime subscription to shield me from this nightmare. I HIGHLY DOUBT my 400 points a month will even SCRATCH the dilithium I'm going to need.
So unless your planning on playing all day everyday, and your lifespan is far longer than mine: You are trolling.
So, people here are complaining about basically 1 weapon made every 2 days.. so the solution is.... 1 weapon every 7?
I think the people in here would lynch you.
We aren't (at least I'm not) complaining about gating, the 7 days was a reference to the original cooldown on transmuting arcanite in wow so that wasn't a serious number. What I'm complaining about is gating it with dilithium. Put cooldown, increased mat cost, schematics only purchasable with ec, any of that I'm fine with. I am not fine with dilithium.
No, they are forcing nothing. You have a choice. 1) Pay real money for C-store points and get dilithium 2) Stop wanting to have it now now now now
hence the FEEL in my post. No cryptic isn't putting a c point cost on crafting. But it takes over 18,000 dilithium to make ONE part of the aegis set. So crafters will feel pressure to buy the dilithium with c points because its either that or feel cockblocked for the next few weeks...per ship.
Again I'll cite the other PW games that I have played as an example. People get away with saying "you dont have to pay you can earn it in game" if there is even a 1 in 1,000,000,000 chance of getting something without paying. There were all kinds of "cash shop" items that "might" drop in world events in other PWE games. Of course only 1 might drop over several months, and then only to ONE player.
Saying you can just earn things in a game when realistically you CANT is dancing the edge of a flat out lie. You know it, but you "escape" from being a liar based on a "technicality". Technically you can get the stuff without paying real money. In reality you're stupid pitiful human lifespan is only a mere 110 years at most. Just like you will not be "winning" enough items to make your perfect pet in other PWE games, you will NOT be grinding for a year to fit out one ship and away team properly.
If it takes a full year of 'grinding' to get purple STO gear (that aren't even required) then you're doing something wrong. Using the present rates on Tribble just one week, of doing 1 daily event a day that nets 1440 dilithum = 10,080 dilithum. Add in additional missions that can reward dilithium, Doff missions, and item sales, and that number can be greater for a true "grinder".
It is quite doable without spending additional $$$, if the player so chooses. Its a case of how much money is a players time worth. For some, taking their time and working up isn't an issue and they'll do it. For the "now now now" group, it won't be fast enough and they'll spend the additional $$$. But ultimately its the players choice, and if they think their time is worth the $$$ to get it 'now', then that is their choice. But it is a choice.
And to those of us who are protesting the manner of the gating and not the gating itself?
Let me ask this question. What if you got 1440 dilithium per day from running STFs but all the gear you buy with salvage cost 20,000 dilithium on top of the salvage? Would you be as apathetic about that as you are about the dilithium tax on crafting? I mean it's only 2 weeks per piece right? Less than a year to get fully geared.
Comments
Nothing is stopping the "casual" player from doing at least 1 mission every time they play to get a bit more dilithium. The time investment IN GAME is the same for all.
They can also buy them off the AH or have a friend give them something.
Sorry, but if this "grind" is an issue, they should go play Call of Duty or something.
No change is ever in favor of the old players. So we have a choice. We can keep things where they are...stale and not moving anywhere.. or take a short term hit and get long term gains.
Either way, these changes are coming. So you can either deal with them, and wait for the long term benefits...or jump ship.
This game needs new blood and new financial injections so we can get some content. If this is what it takes so we can get it.. I am for it.
Frankly if you think things are great as they are in the game right now,....
STO gear is dull. The top level gear we can craft is the exact same as the gear we can get from drops in the tutorial. The only differences are small incremental increases in the numerical values. This is not interesting and does not engender the desire to jump through hoops and grind. All that work for what feels like the base level equipment any captain would be due.
Finally, the most serious aspect to all of this is if they add full Mk XII gear. Mk XI was a bit sketcy, but acceptable since we were VA. MK XII is power creep and increasing the gear ceiling to drive spending in the new system. All your old Mk XI gear becomes obsolete, so you need to burn your Dilithium and materials right away.
I play on live with Mk X Purples, from before the Mk XI gear was introduced. I often out perform, or at least as do as well as, people who have Mk XI gear, just by the simple fact that it still comes down to performance, strategy, and just general approach to playing.
Would I do better if I had full XI or even XII gear? Well, yes, certainly. But that doesn't mean that I am not doing well with 'inferior' gear.
This actually raises another interesting point; a lot of people are saying that the odd-marked 'free' crafting gear is bad, or that if you use anything other than purples then you are unable to play the game. I think the very notion is ridiculous.
I often use 'under valued' gear, and do well for myself. Yes, the other gear is 'better' - but the difference is marginal that it doesn't matter for almost all the content in the game.
Will upgrading from Mk X to XII matter if, say, I want to do the Elite level content? Well, sure, because I'm doing elite level content.
Will Mk X to Mk XII make a difference if I am expecting to take PVP seriously? Yes, but, again, I am trying to play competitively, where something like optimized skill placement, which makes a minor difference in regular play, makes the whole world of difference.
I don't disagree with Cryptic's belief that dilithium is a major non-issue for casual players. Do you WANT the shiny maximum level purples and blues? Certainly. Do you NEED them to be able to play the game without suffering? No.
You just need gear that's in your gear range, and ideally with some 'stats' on it. You can easily get them, the odd-mark items are craftable, and easily obtainable as drops.
Again, my real thought is that the problem here is that the value of dilithium is being under-estimated by the developers a bit, in the sense that I think they are undervaluing the time-investment/cost-investment of the anomaly bits, and that it is not presenting as a worthwhile alternative to just purchasing the vendor alternatives.
^^This^^
I agree with everything this posted said...EXCEPT.. without significant end game content doing the same 7missions or so, and the occasiona PvP, and STF (the same 4 stfs) over and over and over... will get old real fast. especially if it takes MONTHS to get Rare level gear.
I have nothing against having to work for a few months to get Purple gear. Kinda makes it worth it and gives it value vs. every VA having Purple gear. But to have a very limited amount of ways to get dilithium... Im sure the Devs realize this sucks and are working on it.
Keep in mind STFs give even better purples and Rewards aka borg salvage and such. Even if every VA has normal old purple gear only less then 10% will have the Raid Purple gear, so it evens out. You still have to work if you want the best, and Im referring to the Elite Forces gear.
No. YOU don't get it. You aren't understanding a single thing I'm saying.
Look. I get it. WoW is hard. STO is easy. I understand that.
I WANT STO TO STAY EASY.
That is what I am saying. I like playing the easy game of STO. I like easy. I am a casual gamer.
As far as I can possibly tell you think we're all spoiled and that this game should be hard.
If YOU want to play a hard MMO, go play a goddamn hard MMO. We want to play an MMO so we're going to play an easy MMO.
You know what, I'm done. I've tried to be as civil as possible, but you haven't ever directly responded to this point I keep repeating to you every single post. And I am sick and tired of being called a spoiled brat by someone who is loudly proclaiming he wants us "brats" to have to do more work and is thus directly admitting he wants to ruin our fun. So I'm done. Call me whatever you want, but if you won't listen to a word I say then expect me to do the same.
What long term gains? Like every other Perfect World game you'd have to spend $100 a month to be competitive. I wouldnt be able to afford any of the "long term gains" anyways.
Financial injections? Where the hell do you think that is going to come from.....? YOU.... You wanna spend MORE than $15 a month on STO? That is what it is going to cost you when this abomination goes live.
Ya. I think the game on Holodeck is great right now....
I agree with your whole post, but I especially agree with this part. There are plenty of "hard mode" MMOs out there. Pick any perfect world game and try to play free or even for $15 a month. See how easy it is when the end game is open-world PVP and people are running around with $1000 combat pets....
Dont want to count F2P mmos? Okay, I read somewhere a group is making an "EQ Classic" server. Just EQ, Kunark and Velious Xpacs. Go enjoy the longest grind ever to grace gaming. I did it when EQ first came out. Now you can too!
Plenty of options available to someone looking for a painful MMO. But STO (On Holodeck right now) is one of the RARE FEW MMOs that dont believe you'll stay loyal by causing pain, agony and sever trauma to its player.
I dunno where that lousy Brad McQuaid came up with the idea that "If you make them suffer HARD, they will pay forever!" but that concept is what many MMOs run on.
Why change STO to be like all the others?
Here, here, May be all those whiners will stop their moaning now!!!
Oh, I get it. You want it now. That is basically what you want. Sorry, but things achieved instantly have no value.
I can say yes,.. you are all spoiled. No, the game will not become hard. This "grind" is nothing. They are trying to keep the economy in check. Bottlenecks like this will keep it in line.
I do play those hard MMO's. I don't know how many times I have to tell this to you. You seem to ignore that statement every time I post it. But this is a change that is needed. The economy is going to balance itself out this way. Sorry, but if you don't want to do this..then don't craft. Problem solved for you.
You are spoiled. You cannot see the bigger picture. You are stuck in the "ME ME ME ME ME ME NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW" mode of thinking. There are other factors here that you won't even look at, because it would shatter your whole argument.
Because this helps keep the economy in check. Think about it a bit and you will understand how and why.
Bash, hate, be ignorant if you need be. But understand, this is a different type of MMO community than most. Taking that element away is not a positive thing, it is a negative one.
There are better ways to keep the economy in check than putting a dilithium gate on crafting. In wow this would be the same as requiring 2,000 valor points to craft an epic. The devs are not looking at the crafting system through the lens of the reality on tribble. My VA on tribble has less than 100k ec. This is because there are a lot of doff missions that require EC and very few that pay ec (well, its not that they don't exist but only getting a few hundred ec per mission while other missions cost a few thousand or commodities. Trade missions aren't counted because except on a critical success the prices are a wash). It is also because we no longer get ec for missions, the entirety of our income is based on selling gear we find/outgrow. So on holodeck ec has a diminished, almost nonexistent role, but on tribble ec does have value.
If the devs want to slow down the acquisition of purple gear that's fine. Make purple items on a 7 day cooldown, up the material cost to 30 samples of each type for a purple. Just take away the dilithium tax. Its absurd.
One thing I'll admit, however, is that the crafting in STO is infinitely easier than other MMOs (I once raised my craft skill from 0 to max in a day). The only problem i see with the added dilithium cost is that it appears to cost way too much at higher levels. The dilithium cost for crafting an item is 50% of the full price. that's not very reasonable when factoring in the rarity of the particle traces already required for purples. If adding a dilithium cost is really necessary, bring the cost down to 10-25%.. another possible solution would be to raise the refining cap on dilithium based on a player's rank, though I'd rather it be ablolished in the first place.
Agreed whole heartedly. Raise the cap or eliminate this. Don't try to force us to pay you even more on top of a sub.
What are they 'forcing' you to pay?
People are feeling forced to buy c points to trade for dilithium because of the absurd tax on crafting. At a refinement cap of 8k per day it would take over 3 days to get the dilithium to craft 1 item at VA. So while cryptic isn't flat out charging them to craft it still has the same effect
Do you have to pay MORE than $15 to play competitively?
If yes, then Scam = True
The industry standard on a subscription game where you are on the same level playing field as all your paying peers is $15 per month.
Of all the Perfect World titles, show me ONE where you can play competitively for $15 a month. Show your character stats, screenshots and tell your story. Because you'd be lying.... Perfect World games are free to try out, then you reach a certain point and you must pay or FAIL HARD. But the problem isnt the fact that you have to pay, the problem is HOW MUCH your expected to pay.
Of course they are entitled to a profit, but check out Ether Saga or Battle of the Immortals. Figure out what kinda money you need to spend to survive the high end open-pvp game.... Look at what your peers are bringing to the fight. Calculate the time and money you'd need to match that. People have pets worth over $1000 in those games. Those pets can single handedly slay an army of "free players". You as a human being will only live up to 110 years, calculate if there is any chance you can earn one of those $1000 pets (Without spending money) before you die of natural causes..... You cant. Figure out how long it would take you while only spending the industry standard $15 a month..... You'd have to play that game the next decade to pull it off.
They are converting Star Trek to a $100 a month or more to be competitive game. This isnt about grinding, your tiny little human life isnt long enough to grind out the stuff in game, your supposed to spend..... Spend MORE than $15 a month....
It doesnt pass the scam test.
You can entirely play for free to gear yourself up after you've hit cap. You, obviously, would expedite the process by putting in cash, but you don't have to.
LIkewise, with STO, if you want to gear up the best gear you can at all levels, then, sure, you'd probably be buying dilithium. But *why*. It's so easy to reach max level in this game, gearing up in all blues or purples every single time you get a new ship is such a waste of your time.
Even if you level slowly, you'd have more than ample time to get the dilithium you need for your tier to outfit your gear. Just never do episodes, and just do dailies. You'll be more than capable of getting the dilithium in a week or so of just logging in once a day for an hour or two, and still getting your gear, and still not being at max level. Why you would do that with the way the skill system is set up makes no sense; because the skill system means that not leveling is already not making you competitive.
By that note - what do you consider 'competitive'? Arguably, you are only competitive when you are on the same best footing as anyone else. That means you have to be rank 10 of whatever rank you are, or max level. At which point, just the simple act of *doing missions* will push you to the next rank, at which you are no longer 'competitive' for your bracket.
Therefore, 'being competitive' *only matters at max level*. At which point the ability to get dilithium and or gear increases drastically, with the ability to get dilithium AND GEAR through STFs, as well as the added salvage/tech drop system that is in place for running STFs right now.
You can play all of these things WITHOUT PAYING MONEY. You do not need to pay to craft at this stage - the craftables are comparable or less than efficient as the gear you get for doing dungeons.
Arguably, this actually means that dilithium is comparatively worthless at the stage where it matters the most. Ostensibly, you should be using dilithium to gear yourself, where you have the least number of options to gear, and it should supplement the gearing process at max level.
As it is, dilithium is most difficult to get at low levels when you most want it, and becomes easiest to get at high levels where you no longer really need it. There's a reason why people are gearing up through STFs - it's because you can just keep doing them and keep making progress, and you get loot out of them in the process.
As a result of this, I would actually say that Dilithium fails to do the job it intends to do, because of the current spread of availability makes it so that you have it when you don't want it, and when you really want it, you can't get it.
Please do explain in detail how it will keep the economy in check.
If people complain NOW about inflated prices on the exchange, wait till the supply of crafted items dries up, replaced by less desirable odd mark equipment! Odd mark items may suffice for leveling, however nothing can be made without dilithium past mk 7.
New players will have a harder time getting equipment, regardless. Droprates are terrible, especially so with faster leveling, which means even less stuff on the exchange. It is a PITA to get cannons for escorts as you level, for example, even on Holodeck.
You will no longer be able to go run a few sets of exploration missions to get some decent equipment for your ship as you level. You have to buy it off the exchange or waste dilithium on overpriced exploration gear, which in the end means higher exchange prices.
Exchange prices are going to rise. No question about it.
We want options so we dont HAVE to give the $$ but instead can work for the items...
A compromise is to make the item work a bit harder than farming the traces, which is boring beyond belief... but still able to shortcut with dilithium if you want to
Here's my full suggestion. (Warning its a bit long)
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=238216
So, people here are complaining about basically 1 weapon made every 2 days.. so the solution is.... 1 weapon every 7?
I think the people in here would lynch you.
The math is not even needed. If you are limited to making one weapon every 2 days, instead of flooding the market with dozens of weapons a day, the price of the weapons made hold a greater value, being a limited resource. Furthermore spending dilithium crafting removes the dilithium from the economy and that will effect things such as buying C-Store credits from other players and things. Now there is a choice to be made and a value to the choices.
That is the basics. Hard numbers... nobody could provide them. The system is not even live yet.
No, they are forcing nothing. You have a choice.
1) Pay real money for C-store points and get dilithium
2) Stop wanting to have it now now now now now and take a bit longer to get what you want... without spending money
There is a choice. There is no force.
And on the flip side, a dedicated crafter can also make more money by selling the rarer items. The story goes both ways. There is always the buyer and the seller. The fact is this: The market will be more stable overall. Furthermore, they should add a tax to items on the AH, for those morons who use it as a bank or put up items for a ridiculous price. This as well would help keep the prices in check. Nobody is going to put a white officer up for 999,999,999 energy credits with a 10% cost to put up. They would break themselves in minutes.
But the flow of items will be put in check. That always helps stabilize an economy.
See, I'm sorry but this is a load of TRIBBLE.
Again I'll cite the other PW games that I have played as an example. People get away with saying "you dont have to pay you can earn it in game" if there is even a 1 in 1,000,000,000 chance of getting something without paying. There were all kinds of "cash shop" items that "might" drop in world events in other PWE games. Of course only 1 might drop over several months, and then only to ONE player.
Saying you can just earn things in a game when realistically you CANT is dancing the edge of a flat out lie. You know it, but you "escape" from being a liar based on a "technicality". Technically you can get the stuff without paying real money. In reality you're stupid pitiful human lifespan is only a mere 110 years at most. Just like you will not be "winning" enough items to make your perfect pet in other PWE games, you will NOT be grinding for a year to fit out one ship and away team properly.
You know this. Your skating along the edge of a technicality by saying you dont need dilithium. The truth is I DONT need Dilithium on the Holodeck right now. I will need Dilithium when this abomination goes live. There is no realistic way to play this game competitively without dilithium after it goes live.
I can not OPT OUT. I can not use my lifetime subscription to shield me from this nightmare. I HIGHLY DOUBT my 400 points a month will even SCRATCH the dilithium I'm going to need.
So unless your planning on playing all day everyday, and your lifespan is far longer than mine: You are trolling.
We aren't (at least I'm not) complaining about gating, the 7 days was a reference to the original cooldown on transmuting arcanite in wow so that wasn't a serious number. What I'm complaining about is gating it with dilithium. Put cooldown, increased mat cost, schematics only purchasable with ec, any of that I'm fine with. I am not fine with dilithium.
hence the FEEL in my post. No cryptic isn't putting a c point cost on crafting. But it takes over 18,000 dilithium to make ONE part of the aegis set. So crafters will feel pressure to buy the dilithium with c points because its either that or feel cockblocked for the next few weeks...per ship.
Actually I'd say he's pretty dead on, as the bulk of the argument against it does appear to be "now now now" variety.
Apples and oranges, and irrelevant.
If it takes a full year of 'grinding' to get purple STO gear (that aren't even required) then you're doing something wrong. Using the present rates on Tribble just one week, of doing 1 daily event a day that nets 1440 dilithum = 10,080 dilithum. Add in additional missions that can reward dilithium, Doff missions, and item sales, and that number can be greater for a true "grinder".
It is quite doable without spending additional $$$, if the player so chooses. Its a case of how much money is a players time worth. For some, taking their time and working up isn't an issue and they'll do it. For the "now now now" group, it won't be fast enough and they'll spend the additional $$$. But ultimately its the players choice, and if they think their time is worth the $$$ to get it 'now', then that is their choice. But it is a choice.
Let me ask this question. What if you got 1440 dilithium per day from running STFs but all the gear you buy with salvage cost 20,000 dilithium on top of the salvage? Would you be as apathetic about that as you are about the dilithium tax on crafting? I mean it's only 2 weeks per piece right? Less than a year to get fully geared.