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Crafting = Dilithium +Data Samples

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
So now Crafting needs refined Dilithium.

MK XI Weapon = 15,834 dilith. Ships at that lvl have 6 to 8 weapons slots so that means 95,004-126,672 Dilithium for weapons alone.

MK XI Engine, Deflector and shield each cost 31,745 Dilithium so add another 95,235.

Then MK XI Consoles each need 7,945 dilithium, most ships at end use a 4,3,2 console layout so lets multiply that by 9 for 71,505 dilithium.

So end ships will be around 261,744 to 293,412 dilithium if you fit by crafting.

So given that we are in beta and you want feedback can we decide this needs feedback along the lines of "No dilithium in crafting please."

Edit: Zordars post #30 in this thread presents better information on this subject. Clicky Here
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I agree.
    Dilithium cost in crafting screws over a lot of fleets with dedicated crafters and any players who have one or two(1 Fed, 1KDF) characters that do the crafting.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Crafting is now pointless unless they allow you to sell items for DIL too.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    What's next? You can't loot purple items without paying a dilithium "retrieval cost"?

    You are absolutely right. Crafting very rare items already requires particle traces. Now it's going to require dilithium too? And even-mark gear is going to require dilithium? This is ridiculous. It amounts to a complete neutering of the crafting system.

    I can understand that Perfect World wants to monetize a game that is going F2P, and use of dilithium is central to their plan, but this essentially removes any usefulness of crafting.

    Blatantly gating all end-game gear via dilithium is excessive and I'm a great deal less interested in playing a game that does so.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    So now Crafting needs refined Dilithium.

    MK XI Weapon = 15,834 dilith. Ships at that lvl have 6 to 8 weapons slots so that means 95,004-126,672 Dilithium for weapons alone.

    MK XI Engine, Deflector and shield each cost 31,745 Dilithium so add another 95,235.

    Then MK XI Consoles each need 7,945 dilithium, most ships at end use a 4,3,2 console layout so lets multiply that by 9 for 71,505 dilithium.

    So end ships will be around 261,744 to 293,412 dilithium if you fit by crafting.

    So given that we are in beta and you want feedback can we decide this needs feedback along the lines of "No dilithium in crafting please."

    where did you get those figures?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I'm usually the last one to jump on the doom and gloom bandwagon but the fact that Cryptic is even considering this scares me.

    With Dilitium having a direct tie in to real world money any time Cryptic adds Dilitium to the cost of doing anything their motives become suspect and rightfully so. Weather this is Crytic's intention or not this is a money grab. If this isn't the intention Id suggest the crafting pricing system be reverted back to they way it was.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    The idea behind crafting is that you have to look for the samples in order to craft the items. The time looking for the samples replaces time spent trying to gain dilithium. Now we need both. That is absurd. Totally ruined the point of crafting completely.

    Edit: And its not even cheap dilitium. It's like 90% of the cost of the original item so apparently 30 data samples and a rare particle trace only equals a 10% discount? Seriously Cryptic. We understand the path you want to go but you can only take and take and take before we get ****ed off.

    on a side note: crafting will always be lacking until I can go in select the schematic I need (ex: beam array), then select what lvl I want that beam array at (ex: MK XI), which quality of rare I want it (ex: very rare), then pick the three buffs I want added to it (ex: acc, dmgx2). At which point it then tells me how many samples I need and since its very rare how many particle traces I need to craft it. Until crafting is that it, in my eyes, is not perfect.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    where did you get those figures?

    The R&D Screen on tribble shows dilithium cost for gear.

    An MK XI Weapon costs 15,834 dilith.... a ship at end game has 6-8 weapon slots... escort has 7.

    15,834 x 6 (Sci Vessal weapon slots) = 95,004 total dilithium needed for a Sci ship

    Escort has 7 weapon slots so 15,834 x 7 = 110838 dilithium needed to fully craft weapons for an escort.

    All I did was take figures from tribble and multiply according to the corresponding slots on a ship for a rough idea of the end cost.

    By all means if I am wrong please say so, I would hate to be miss informing people.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    This whole dlithium thing is now just a mess. To spend that much to craft is just stupid, why not just buy direct from the vendors in thi case. What do we save by crafting a few thousand dilithium at best? It seems that dilithium in no longer to try and fix the game economy and consolidate currencies. Dilithium is all about revenue from the cp/dilithium exchange and cryptic is going to add dilithium costs to everything in STO eventually. This is just wrong and further pushing the game into the toilet.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Cryptic why are you charging Dilithium for crafting?

    I already have to spend countless hours hunting for data samples amd making useless Items that I have to vendor just to get my skills up and now you are going to charge me Dilithium on top of that!!!!!!

    Ok I am a Man of few words But some are coming to mind and I realy don't like Saying those WORDS

    Please rethink this Dilithium for crafting
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I think understand why they added dilithium to the craafting process:

    1: they want people to have an incentive to get dilithium
    2: The cost of data samples on the exchange goes down monumentally. Why? Since dilithium is needed to craft, it is harder to craft. Less crafting means less buying of anamloies on the exchange.

    I will say this. None of my characters on tribble have earned 8,000 Dilithium ore yet. I am not usually on when the mirror event, and dailies are able to be played. Even if I am, I enjoy playing the DOFF system more so I can't be bothered to force myself to play a daily.

    On tribble, I will not be crafting obviously since I cannot get the dilithium I need. My only hope is that Doff Missions never require dilithium. They already require EC on quite a few of them so... if that happens, I will likely play the DOFF system less. If that happens, then I have a reason to go play another game.

    I hope the Tribble Dilithium test economy helps Devs make good changes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    whats the point again in crafting? if all we're getting for our grinding time in aquring traces is only worht 10% of the cost of the full item......whats the friggin point? That is utterly TRIBBLE. You may as well just yank crafting out alltogether.

    Why would a person spend the time grinding out 90% of the dilith cost of a weapon to then turn around and spend hours grinding hopeing to get the rare and non rare components? you'd be better off just grinding out that extra 10% in dilithium.

    I don't know what you guys are smoking but it must be some pretty good ****.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Crafting is supposed to be another way of obtaining high-end game items, without useing triditonal game currency. Change the amount of samples needed, or the xp needed if your trying to slow it down to acomadate for the new economy. But please, please do not make dilithium necessary for crafting.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Not in game so I'd check myself, but I'd be interested in seeing a quick comparrision of crafted vs bought items. Taking into account the amount of Dilithium required for both items, and I guess how many data samples would be required for the crafted item.

    BTW
    Dilithium for crafting is a fail.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    joebobkill wrote: »
    On tribble, I will not be crafting obviously since I cannot get the dilithium I need. My only hope is that Doff Missions never require dilithium. They already require EC on quite a few of them so... if that happens, I will likely play the DOFF system less. If that happens, then I have a reason to go play another game.

    I don't think you will see a dilithium cost for a doff mission, unless dilithium is needed, such as "Exparmental recrystalization of Dilithium ore, cost 2000 dilithium ore, reward 6000 refined dilithium, time to compleation 12hrs, Critical 2%, sucsess 35% Failure 45%, disaster 18%". (Not a real mission)

    Dilithium is ment to be a reward for the Doff system, and Hertic has said the amount of dilithium awarded would be increasing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    So now Crafting needs refined Dilithium.

    MK XI Weapon = 15,834 dilith. Ships at that lvl have 6 to 8 weapons slots so that means 95,004-126,672 Dilithium for weapons alone.

    MK XI Engine, Deflector and shield each cost 31,745 Dilithium so add another 95,235.

    Then MK XI Consoles each need 7,945 dilithium, most ships at end use a 4,3,2 console layout so lets multiply that by 9 for 71,505 dilithium.

    So end ships will be around 261,744 to 293,412 dilithium if you fit by crafting.

    So given that we are in beta and you want feedback can we decide this needs feedback along the lines of "No dilithium in crafting please."

    Sry, Couldn't Resist.....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Sollaf wrote: »
    Dilithium is ment to be a reward for the Doff system, and Hertic has said the amount of dilithium awarded would be increasing.

    I hope that is true.... BUT Energy Credits are also a reward in DOFF missions, but also you spend respectively 100 EC, or 500 EC, or 2,000 EC on different DOFF missions. The EC I get as rewards are speant right back into DOFF missions :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Jentai wrote: »
    whats the point again in crafting? if all we're getting for our grinding time in aquring traces is only worht 10% of the cost of the full item......whats the friggin point? That is utterly TRIBBLE. You may as well just yank crafting out alltogether.

    Why would a person spend the time grinding out 90% of the dilith cost of a weapon to then turn around and spend hours grinding hopeing to get the rare and non rare components? you'd be better off just grinding out that extra 10% in dilithium.

    I don't know what you guys are smoking but it must be some pretty good ****.
    Crafting

    * Returned the ability to craft uncommon or rare even-mark gear, but with a cost in dilithium in addition to crafting materials.
    o The dilithium cost is a percentage of the cost to flat out buy the item from the dilithium store. The dilithium cost percentage increases with the rank of the item you’re crafting.
    * Very rare gear is still only craftable at the odd marks (including Mk XI), with a dilithium cost.
    * The same crafting update in progress for Klingons.

    The problem is with dilithium added to crafting is your point becomes valid.. "Why Craft"

    Rare traces can be obtained via the exchange, adding dilithium to crafting is going to cause prices to sky rocket up.

    Or you can invest time in farming for them. Now with the crafting on Beta as it is we need to not only spend time farming for the materials but in also farming dilithium. Note that Salami_Inferno said/posted that gear in crafting has it's dilith cost scale to your level. At a fixed rate of 8000 dilithium ore being refined to refined dilithium per day and gear scaling to match your level, this means with all the other dilithium costs in game it becomes even harder to fit your ship.

    The point in crafting? It provided a way to fit their ships if they didn't want to grind marks/emblems now dilithium.

    With so many aspects of the game needing dilithium, 8000 per day given the scale of items needing it, is in my opinion ridiculous.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    and so, kerrat will now be the only feasible way to get purples (better than crafted and emblem ones). Hi pvp!

    BUT NO!

    kerrat is going away for a new zone!

    go FIGURES! yeh, yeh, a figures party!

    OP:

    i dont mind a dilithium cost... as long as it's not ludicrous (say... 2 days worth of refining for a single ship to be fully equipped with consoles and accesories... so... about 750-1k / item?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    joebobkill wrote: »
    I hope that is true.... BUT Energy Credits are also a reward in DOFF missions, but also you spend respectively 100 EC, or 500 EC, or 2,000 EC on different DOFF missions. The EC I get as rewards are speant right back into DOFF missions :)

    That is true with the energy credits, but it was designed to be an EC sink. I'm not sure yet, but I don't think there needs to be a dilithium sink, I also don't think Hertic would let anyone kill his doff system. It is one of the best things added to the game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    In Short: Crafting + Dilithium = FAIL!

    In Not-As-Short: Crafting in MMO's is an economic endeavor. All parts and parcels thereof interact on and within the exchange of items between players. While many things can be acquired by the expenditure of time. In the end if a crafter has the gold (EC here) he can purchase from other players (or vendors) all the items he needs to craft any given item.

    The adding of Dilithium to the mix breaks the functionality of the crafting minigame. A locked factor in the interactions of crafting very much kills all ability for the process to, well, proceed. This is without taking into account the currently insane level of required Dilithium currently in the recipes.

    I love this game, and I understand F2P is a work in progress at this time, BUT Dilithium with Crafting is a failure of epically moronic proportions that even Pakled would avoid.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    With so many aspects of the game needing dilithium, 8000 per day given the scale of items needing it, is in my opinion ridiculous.

    I haven't even managed to get to get 8,000 Dilithium ore yet on tribble. The SFA event has more destablized particles than anything and it takes an hour or so from playing the game. The mirror/ daily events require me to play daily... removing time I can spend to play the story or DOFF system.

    Since I enjoy the story and the DOFF system, I will never earn 8,000 dilithium ore in a single day as it stands now.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Well one, if you think the prices on the exchange are high now...they will be at least five times that now. I am glad I spent yesterday and the day before finishing kitting my test toon's ship and Boffs with gear!

    Two, this will utterly destroy the poor crafting system STO has to begin with. Say No to Dilithium in crafting. All we can do is continue to make a stir about it. No Dilithium, No Compromise. If they do not want to change it back, then they don't really want or value or feedback and hence us as paying subscribers.

    I will ask D'Angelo again, What is the intention of placing a Dlithium block on crafting?

    I am really disappointed D'Stahl left, but I can see why he went. If this is what he saw coming down the pipeline and could not change it I would leave to.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Well I can honestly say I rarely ever post on the forums.

    While I am not a crafting guy, I do harvest Data samples and Particle traces for my fleets bank (Me being the leader). And this honestly has me thinking I should now stop harvesting and turn the Crafting tab into something else. As crafting for the fleet will mean I have to ask my Fleet members to donate there dilithium.

    Please Cryptic.. remove dilithium from Crafting.. and think of fleets before you make changes.


    Thank You.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    on a side note: crafting will always be lacking until I can go in select the schematic I need (ex: beam array), then select what lvl I want that beam array at (ex: MK XI), which quality of rare I want it (ex: very rare), then pick the three buffs I want added to it (ex: acc, dmgx2). At which point it then tells me how many samples I need and since its very rare how many particle traces I need to craft it. Until crafting is that it, in my eyes, is not perfect.

    ARGEED 100%
    I am really disappointed D'Stahl left, but I can see why he went. If this is what he saw coming down the pipeline and could not change it I would leave to.

    Since D'Stahl was more on the side of giving to the players for free, maybe we now know why he decided to leave so quickly ..... All this cost being put on the players is giving me food for thought. :confused:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Frankly, crafting was already laughable because of the rare particle traces.

    Someone out to compare the total time to craft a weapon (including average time to get rare particles), versus just farming the dilithium to buy an equivalent weapon.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Yeah, this is pretty much a bad idea. As a heavy crafter, I now see little point in doing it when I can use just plain ol dilithium to buy the same or other, non-craftables that could be better.

    Additionally, from the time I have spent doing clusters, doff stuff and storyline, I am not earning enough dilithium in a single day to make things like these Mk X items. I don't need a dilithium sink at this point seeing as right now there are too many items that require large quantities and not enough being dished out to make me want to think about grinding for it.

    I also vote for removing dilithium from crafting.

    Edit:

    Prior to this change, I used the crafting system to make somewhat decent items while I did grinding to earn Marks, Emblems, or do STFs to get better items. That grind I don't mind, and there was an incentive for me to craft: Make items I can use to compete with so I could get better goodies. Once I got enough Emblems or whatever for a qualtiy weapon or piece of ship equipment I felt accomplished.

    Now, it's a choice whether I want to go through a frustrating grind fest with mediocre gear and maybe even a mediocre ship to get currency so I can afford to either make an item, or buy one from a vendor. Since I like the stats on the items at the vendor better than I do the craftable items, I fail to see the incentive for me to craft.

    A good point made earlier about fleets, too, is that now each player is going to have to pay out of pocket to craft items, which gives me little incentive to craft for my fleet, which is something I used to do. As much as I love my fleet members, the idea of having to grind and grind and grind to get dilithium to make things for fleet members is not a very palatable one.

    Heck, I find the grinding in EvE is easier and makes more sense than this.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I know this has been mentioned ad nauseum, but thought I'd add my support.

    Dilithium on crafting makes no sense, since you cannot get that Dilithium back from other players. You have killed any social aspect of crafting (selling, trading, making for fleets). It makes no sense.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I feel i have to add my voice here too, I have used the crafting system a lot since day 1 but will craft no more with dilithium charges involved.:mad:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Here are screenshots of the new crafting system that apparently "better represents Cryptic's intent". ;)

    Consoles (Eng and Sci consoles cost the same in rD as Tac consoles)
    Ship Weapons (all ship weapons cost the same in rD at each Mk)
    Ship Engines
    Ship Deflectors
    Ship Shields
    Personal Shields (armor costs the same in rD per Mk)
    Personal Rifles (pistols, assault, and melee cost the same in rD per Mk)

    So, some quick math to completely gear out an RA science ship (w/ Aegis, consoles and weapons):
    • 95,004 rD for Mk XI ship weapons at 15,834 a piece
    • 54,450 rD for the complete Aegis set at 18,150 a piece
    • 71,505 rD for all nine Mk XI consoles (using a DSSV) at 7,945 a piece

    That brings us to a grand total of 220,959 rD just to gear a ship with crafting.

    By way of comparison, buying from the former-Emblem vendor at ESD would be:
    • 135,720 rD for Mk XI ship weapons at 22,620 a piece
    • 136,050 rD for Mk XI deflector, shield and engine at 45,350 each
    • 102,150 rD for nine Mk XI consoles at 11,350 each

    The total for outright buying gear with rD instead of crafting it comes to 373,920. So, about 40% more in rD than crafting. But considering that crafting also requires you to grind to get samples and particle traces, a 40% cost break isn't worth it. Basically, you can kiss seeing Aegis or Mk XI crafted gear on the Exchange for less than 10mil EC goodbye. With this system, crafting for anyone but yourself it too expensive in grind requirements (and honestly, it's too expensive regardless).

    Nicely done, Cryptic. Way to turn yet another aspect of STO into a cluster.


    Z
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    wardyboy wrote:
    I feel i have to add my voice here too, I have used the crafting system a lot since day 1 but will craft no more with dilithium charges involved.:mad:

    I have to agree whole-hearted with this. Cryptic you need to fix this and get rid of using dilithum to craft items that is totally uncool.
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