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Tracking Subscription Changes P2P v. F2P

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
dstahl wrote: »
...I can assure you there are no restrictions on content access, including future Feature Series. In addition, subscribers should notice little to no change. As far as I've seen, any changes in price will be to lower prices on some items.

That aside, if you don't like the game, you don't like the game. The entire concept of F2P is that you don't have to pay for the game. You can play it for free and if you like... {Source}

The above quote is from the, at the time, Executive Produce of Star Trek Online, Dan Stahl (posted Sep 1, 2011), in an attempt to calm the masses that things weren't going to be so bad come STO: Free-to-Play. This "subscriber" would like to make the following list of "little" changes that I happen to notice. (And yes, I know Dan is gone, but his words still matter.) Some of the items on this list may be "forward thinking", but most are on Tribble now.

Negative Changes
* No VA Ship Token:
Originally all ship tokens were removed from the game. Cryptic restored subscriber Ship Tokens for ranking up through Rear Admiral, but they have not restored the Vice Admiral/Lieutenant General Token. You want a new ship for your End Game? C-Points Only. Details:
http://startrekonline.com/node/2654 (About Ships/Tokens).
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3806649 (Why VA is gone.)
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=239471 (Token = Vet Reward.)
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3845135 (My response.)
http://www.startrekonline.com/node/2678 (New Blog)
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3852908 (Latest response)

* Dilithium Added to Crafting:
Uncommon and rare even-mark gear, and all very rare items require a dilithium fee. The current fees are high and not much lower than regular vendors, even though the player still needs to also include standard crafting material (anomalies and schematics). There has been much gnashing of teeth on this one from the playerbase. Cryptic, has said they're looking at it, but Dil is here to stay. Details:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=237412
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=239471 (Latest response)

* In-Game Ships Removed:
The T3 Nebula and T3 Excel are no longer purchasable via Energy Credits, and the Delta Flyer can no longer be crafted. Also, in addition to the VA/LG tokens being removed (see above), the Fed VA Retrofits, D'Kyr, Nebula, and their KDF counterparts are no longer even grindable via an in-game currency. All these ships are now C-Store only (but see below about Exchanging for C-Points).

* C-Store Prices got Jacked-Up!
Roughtly 80% of the items in the C-Store had their prices raised! I thought paying $15 for a ship on the C-Store was bad. I mean at 1200CP that's a month's worth of subscription fee for the whole game for just one ship. Now those same ships are 1600CP (or $20).

* The Relentless Nerf:
The Relentless vet reward has been Nerfed. After paying for 500 days, a player would be gifted 250 Emblems as part of his Veteran Reward. That portion of the reward has been removed. We're told that Cryptic is "working on something else to fill in that spot" with something that they are "looking at", and "currently exploring the possibility" of, but "nothing is set in stone yet." The VA Ship Token got added here. It's unclear if this is a separate add/fix for pulling the Token in the first place or replacement for the Emblem Nerf (or both). Relevant quotes/my further opinion/thoughts are here:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3787572
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3796966
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=239471
http://www.startrekonline.com/node/2678 (New Blog)
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3852908 (Latest response)

* Time-Gated Currency/Conversion:
Regardless of how the numbers are tweaked, I don't think subscribers should be subjected to a time-gated currency conversion process. If a player pays $15 a month and wants to spend 10 hours on a Saturday, earns 40,000 Dil, then he should get to spend it right there on whatever shiney new toy he wants. He should not have to wait 5 days to refine it. They want to time-gate Silvers? I got no problem with that.

Further, I am very against the fact that when Holodeck characters are moved to F2P Land, some currency we have already earned may be given to us as Ore, meaning it's being restricted from our use for a time. Details/rant here:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3818473

* Bind-on-Pickup Dilithium Items:
On Holodeck now, Badge and Emblem items are Bind-on-Equip. This means I can spend my time earning these tokens and sell the resultant spoils to other players for EC. Also, and more importantly to me, I'm a player who likes lots of characters (I have 20 now, only 8 are at End Game). As I level-up new alts I can buy gear for them from my main characters, this especially being true with Emblem gear. When my new toons reach VA/LG, I do not have to grind with them. I can >poof< give the Alt any Epic Gear they need.

With Dilithium replacing all the "good gear" currencies, and Dil items beign BoP, I won't be able to do either of these tasks I can now do with my sub. I can see that Dil is a "time currency" that's related to money that Silvers aren't paying in subs, so they want each player to have to grind... But to get the Dil to begin with, the time has already been spent by me. In game I may be nearly two-dozen people. In real life, I'm only me. I can only grind so much. Perhaps they can allow inter-account trading, at least for Gold members.

* C-Store items become Single Purchase:
What was originally discovered and justifiably raged-over has been cleared-up. Existing players' account-wide unlocks of already purchased/awarded items will be grandfathered-in. Still, I think new C-store items (like pets, tribbles, etc.) being per-item single-purchases is not a wise idea, so I'm leaving this in the "bad" area.
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3837437 (How it "works.")
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3839578 (Stormshade explains/apologizes.)
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3839654 (New characters retain unlocks.)
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3839727 (Ships to remain account-wide.)
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3840094 (Geko's addional info.)

Positive Changes
* New Content:
DOff System/Assignments, STA "Particle" Game, Mirror Event, "rebooted" STFs, Tour the Galaxy, Borg Ground Event (So far, unreleased), etc. These are great. It's too bad Cryptic has intentionally witheld the release of some of these for F2P Launch, making the Holodeck Drought even longer, but once things go live, hopefully we'll get a lot more content down the line. (Not holding my breath.)

* 400CP Monthly Stipend:
This would be especially full of win if it wasn't for the fact that the C-Store prices got jacked-up (see below), effectively nerfing this out of the box. Still, ultimately it's a boon.

* Modular Ship Powers:
Some ships with special powers got those powers removed from the generic UI and turned into a "console" that can be added or removed as the player would like. Many (most?) of these are useable on other ships of the same class (Escort, Cruiser, Sci, etc). Most ships that got their power "consolized" also got an extra slot to put it in resulting in a net loss of zero to keep your power. I like this idea of modularzation and the variety that it brings to the game. Still, it's not perfect. I much rather these were quest rewards, crafting items, or otherwise in-game unlocks. Instead they are C-Store purchased and there is debate about this (see "Pay-to Win" below), also in the process they Nerfed the T5 Excel (see below).

* Klingon Academy:
It's long overdue, but it's pretty cool. Nothing much to do there yet, but a mini-game similar to SFA is supposed to be coming soon.

(Now continued in the next post...)
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    (Continued from post #1...)

    Uncertain Changes
    * New Economy:
    This should be good a good thing. I love the idea that all those miscellaneous badges, marks, medals, emblems, etc. have been condensed into a universal currency. This reduction in complexity should be great! However, as things are shaping up now, it's becoming the opposite.

    For starters, Dilithium this isn't a single currency. There is Ore (which is unusable, and what you get from most missions, rewards, etc.) and Refinded (the version you can actually spend). The two are fully under a Cryptic-controlled, time-gated, limiting process called Refining that converts "bad" Dilithium Ore to "good" Refined Dilithium. Subscribers should not be time-gated (see above).

    Dilithium is looking like it's going to be uber-grindtastic and all around Bad. Especially the way Dilithium is insinuating it's way into every portion of the game. Cryptic is locking away all the good stuff behind the Dilithium key, and each player must pay the piper individually. You can't craft around it (again, for the better items), and even the formally BoE Emblem Gear is now BoP (see above).

    The currency unification has been further muddled by the new STF "currencies" - Where we used to simply have Marks of Valor we now have a plethora of "tokens" that are exchanged for "requisitions" to "buy" ("craft"?) the awesome new STF gear. I love the choice this allows, but so far feel it's implementation is confusing and overpriced (ie grindy). (Details here and here.)

    Anyway, I'm going to leave the Economy under the Uncertain section, because I want to hope it all won't be so evil as it feels now. Maybe when the dust settles, Cryptic gets their test data, tweaks the numbers, etc. Things will be fair and reasonable. Yeah. It might happen... Anyway, here's a Dev blog on the subject:
    http://www.startrekonline.com/node/2638

    * The Dilithium <-> C-Point Exchange:
    Instead of buying C-Store items (ships, etc.) with saved-up Emblems or Badges, the "in-game" method for buying C-Store items will involve a special Exchange whereby a player can somehow trade the in-game Refined Dilithium currency for the out-of-game C-Store C-Points.

    This is not in Tribble yet, so details are sketchy. The jist is that you can buy other players' purchased/stipend CP that they are selling (at an unregulated/market-controlled rate) with your Dilithium. My gut feeling is this will also be Bad, at the very least it won't be a "sure thing" like grinding for 500 Emblems, but I'm trying to reserve judgement and be hopeful. Some interesting/related links:
    http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3808687
    http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3808600

    * Respec Purchases:
    Subscribers still get Respec Tokens from ranking and Vet Rewards. These should be plenty for most players. However, some people really are into tweaking, and the in-game method to buy additional respects via Merits (or Honor) has been removed. I do not believe an alternate currency can be been used (such as Dilithium or EC). So if you run out of the freebies you have to buy from the C-Store (at nearly double the pre-F2P price). I'm not yet sure if this is working as intended, nor exactly how it would affect game play either way. Personally, now that I know how the skill system works, it's pretty easy to get the character I want within one or two adjustments, which I'll get for free. YMMV.

    * Pay-to-Win:
    The New Wave of C-Store ships (and potentially other items in the future) are Tier +1, they "are typically slightly stronger in some way, and they include a valuable piece of gear that is only available with that ship." - This is known as "Pay-to-Win" (P2W). I know most people consider this a negative, and on some levels I do too (my rant/thoughts here (link coming soon)). But there are others that don't. Not to mention this has been going on more and more in the game for a long time, so it's not really a "change" and I could accept it they don't take away what they sell you (see Excel Nerf, above). For now, I'm going to leave this squarely in the Uncertain section. Related link:
    http://startrekonline.com/node/2654

    * Forced Mission Progression:
    On Tribble you're forced to perform the Story Missions in a particular order. You can't skip one if it's broken or say if you're on a duplicate character and you simply don't like a particlar episode. This has even caused problems where VAs can't get to Borg Space because they've not got to the mission that sends them there. I don't like the Forced Progression, but have put it in Uncertain because the EEPH has said it's bad and it will be changed.

    * Klingon Faction Reorganization:
    The Klingon Faction used to be unlocked once a player's first character completed Lieutenant 5, reached Lt. 6 (Level 6), and achieved the Blood of the Warrior accolade. Any new Klingon Defense Force (KDF) character created after this would start at Lt. 6, but then be able to level-up from there. When F2P goes live, the KDF will now unlock and start at Lt. Commander 7 (Level 17). Cryptic has starved the KDF faction to such a point that they finally had to admit it's only a half-faction (at best), and they are trying to compensate for that. I know many players are upset by this, and I can understand why.

    Cryptic says they want a strong faction and in the future they'll relaunch the KDF as such. We all know the many broken words Cryptic has said about the KDF going back to STO Beta (those who don't know can click here). I'm only "reporting" the (still) current state of things. Suffice to say, I'll believe it when I see it. I too feel the pain of my Klingon Brethern, so please let us not use this thread to devolve into another KDF rant. (I thank you for your restraint.)

    However... Like it or hate it, it's true there really isn't enough KDF content at this time for a full game play experience, so maybe this isn't really that bad of an idea. I'm putting this in Uncertain, as only time will tell. Details on the new Half-KDF:
    http://startrekonline.com/node/2637

    Revoked Changes
    I will try to keep up with changes as they occur. I welcome your on-topic posts and comments. If you notice a change in the game I haven't mentioned, please post that too.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    * No VA Ship Token:
    Originally all ship tokens were removed from the game. Cryptic restored subscriber Ship Tokens for ranking up through Rear Admiral, but they have not restored the Vice Admiral/Lieutenant General Token. You want a new ship for your End Game? C-Points Only.
    Details: http://startrekonline.com/node/2654

    I would argue that "VA" ships are no more "End-game ships" than the ones you get at level 41. They're still Tier 5 ships, but they have also always been "+1 ships" because the main difference from other ships in their class stat-wise is that they all have a special ability. So you do get a non-C-Store "End-game" ship, as you always have. At level 41.

    EDIT: Also, you put in the C-Store Prices and Time-Gated Conversion in the Negative changes category when it's based on the changing Economy, which you have stated yourself is an uncertain change. So you do understand that this system is in flux and is still undergoing changes, but you're still going to make a blanket good/bad statement on it?

    The same goes for the "Relentless" nerf. You've acknowledged that you know they're still working on it but you've went ahead and declared it a negative when you don't know what the results will be.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    You missed the forced episode chaining, which I think the majority sees as negative.
    I would argue that "VA" ships are no more "End-game ships" than the ones you get at level 41. They're still Tier 5 ships, but they have also always been "+1 ships" because the main difference from other ships in their class stat-wise is that they all have a special ability. So you do get a non-C-Store "End-game" ship, as you always have. At level 41.

    The VA ships have never been +1 ships. They were always arguably balanced by the loss of a console slot for their ability. Some of those powers offer very questionable balance, certainly. However, they were far closer to balanced than the true +1 ships which get an extra BOFF slot, extra console slot, and a power to put in that extra console slot. There is no semblance of balance to those ships.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I consider VA ships endgame because they are a "Reward" for attaining the rank of Vice Admiral.
    And what Cryptic is doing now is depriving us of our rewards for future characters and nerfing the benefits of leveling up to VA.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Nice summary, but I would argue some of your negative points:

    * No VA Ship Token:

    While you indeed not get a token anymore, you gain dilithium during leveling and if you have a subscription you gain teh above mentioned 400 cp per month. Hence, as a subscription player there is most likely no limitation in getting a VA ship when you rank up (if you do this optimised for the new rewards).


    * C-Store Prices got Jacked-Up!

    Your example is the 1600 cp ship that was 1200 before, which in the end is actually a 0 increase for players with subscription, since tehy get 400 cp now (each month) and did not get any before. Considering that some other items kept the price or actually got cheaper the statment that C-Store Prices got Jacked up is not generally correct.

    In any case, if I look at the balance sheet I am so far linking most of the changes. The most critical imbalance is with Dilithium and Dilithium prices for items to my mind.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    * Respect Purchases:
    We still get Respect Tokens from ranking and Vet Rewards. However the in-game method to buy additional respects via Merits (or Honor) has been removed. I do not believe an alternate currency has been used (such as Dilithium or EC). So if you run out of the freebies you have to buy from the C-Store (at nearly double the price). I'm not yet sure if this is working as intended, nor exactly how it would affect game play either way.

    Not that I want to seem like the grammar/spelling police, but I think you mean "Respec" (or Captain Retrain) tokens.. Nobody can buy Respect. It has to be earned (and not with Merits either).

    However, Respec tokens do tie in with the Dilithium/C-points Exchange, since it's theoretically possible to get the C-points for a Captain Retrain token from the Exchange of currency.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    <Re: VA Tokens>
    Part of the "pact" with the players back around S2 was that these C-Store ships would be available in game and as a sort of "halfway meeting" each character would get one of these ships for free as part of their subscription upon reaching VA1. There opposite side of he deal were drawbacks, like you couldn't discharge/reclaim it, and if you wanted more than one of these T+1 ships you had to grind 500 Emblems to unlock another single copy, or pay the C-Store Piper. I have always felt that was an eloquent solution.

    Taking this option away from Subscribers is removing something that was previously a part of the subscription. Personally, I think it should be part of the Gold-Only part of the game to encourage Subs. Silvers are welcome to use C-Store only.
    ...you put in the C-Store Prices and Time-Gated Conversion in the Negative changes category when it's based on the changing Economy...
    Yup. I read a post (can't find atm) where the C-Store prices were said to be near stable. When we were told the "plan" was no price changes (or to lower), then any hikes are deemed bad, much less ~80% of the items going up a lot.

    Regardless of the numbers, I don't think subscribers should be subjected to a time-gated currency conversion process. If a player pays $15 a month and wants to spend 10 hours on a Saturday and earns 40,000 Dil he should get to spend it right then and there on that shiney new ship part, not have to wait 5 days to refine it. They want to time-gate Silvers? I got no problem with that.

    Edit: I reworded/added the above to the OP.
    The same goes for the "Relentless" nerf...
    Yup. I added another link that explains further about how I feel, but in short, they're talking about a BO. I can't imagine any BO (or really anything) will replace the value of 250 Emblems worth of End Game items in terms not only of playability, but also saved Grind Time. Thanks for your thoughts Direphoenix.
    Foxrocks wrote: »
    You missed the forced episode chaining, which I think the majority sees as negative...
    Thanks, I did forget about that, and yes it's negative, but I added it to Uncertain for reasons listed above.
    wulfman wrote: »
    While you indeed not get a token anymore, you gain dilithium during leveling and if you have a subscription you gain teh above mentioned 400 cp per month. Hence, as a subscription player there is most likely no limitation...

    If I'm a subscriber and I level three toons to VA in one month, I should get my pick of three of those VA ships the token used to be good for. 400CP/Mo will not cover one toon to pick a ship, much less two or more, for many months. I call that a limitation.

    Dilithium gained through leveling can not buy C-Store ships. There's going to be a Dil<>CP Exchange, but we don't know much about it except there's no set price, it's not like I'll know 500 Emblems will get me a ship, and I have to hope there's even CP available. When compared to a VA1 Token, that sounds like another limit to me.
    wulfman wrote: »
    Your example is the 1600 cp ship that was 1200 before, which in the end is actually a 0 increase... Considering that some other items kept the price or actually got cheaper the statment that C-Store Prices got Jacked up is not generally correct.
    Hmmm... Last time I checked (10/06/11) the MVAM Escrot went up 800pts. That's more than a wash. But ok, many items do break even. I comment on that in the 400 Stipend Positive part. The fact that ~20% of the items are priced equal to or less than before pales in comparison to the ~80% that went up. That qualifies correct as a "general" upward jacking. :D
    wulfman wrote: »
    In any case, if I look at the balance sheet I am so far linking most of the changes. The most critical imbalance is with Dilithium and Dilithium prices for items to my mind.
    And you're welcome to that opinion (no sarcasm intended). Thanks for posting wulfman!
    Destinii wrote: »
    Not that I want to seem like the grammar/spelling police, but I think you mean "Respec" (or Captain Retrain) tokens.. Nobody can buy Respect. It has to be earned (and not with Merits either).
    "Everybody run! 5.0 is rollin' up on our grammarz and spellinz!!" lol

    Thanks Destini, I corrected my mistake.
    Destinii wrote: »
    However, Respec tokens do tie in with the Dilithium/C-points Exchange, since it's theoretically possible to get the C-points for a Captain Retrain token from the Exchange of currency.
    Sure. And a Captain Retrain that used to cost $5 in CP (and I think was too expensive then) is now $9.75 (when last checked, 10/06/11). Nearly $10 to reboot my character's skills? Wow! :eek:

    New items on the list:
    Besides the aforementioned Forced Mission Chaining, I added the T5 Excel Nerf, KDF Academy, and Dilithium Crafting.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Thanks Destini, I corrected my mistake.

    "Destinii" has two i's... Book him, Dan-O! :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    * Forced Mission Progression:
    On Tribble you're forced to perform the Story Missions in a particular order. You can't skip one if it's broken or say if you're on a duplicate character and you simply don't like a particlar episode. This has even caused problems where VAs can't get to Borg Space because they've not got to the mission that sends them there. I don't like the Forced Progression, but have put it in Uncertain because the EEPH has said it's bad and it will be changed.
    [/INDENT]

    Could you link this post. I have been trying to find a dev talking about the locked story progression for some time now.

    Thanks.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    If I'm a subscriber and I level three toons to VA in one month, I should get my pick of three of those VA ships the token used to be good for. 400CP/Mo will not cover one toon to pick a ship, much less two or more, for many months. I call that a limitation.

    The one decent thing though, is once you unlock the ship, it is unlocked acrossed your account.

    (Although that is the way it has always been.)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Destinii wrote: »
    "Destinii" has two i's... Book him, Dan-O! :D
    "Gah'dahmmit! Ah've been foiled again!

    And I would have got away with it if it was for that pesky Destinii kid!


    LOL

    I saw that and I was like Doh! Hahaha... Apparently I need glasses...
    Sollaf wrote: »
    Could you link this post. I have been trying to find a dev talking about the locked story progression for some time now...
    Sure, here ya go:
    sdangelo wrote: »
    ...I agree with the posters that said that the non-skippable, linear episodes are bad. I hate that, too. Will it be changed this week? No. But we'll be looking for a good way to get that feeling better before we go to Holodeck...
    Linky Goodness: http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3806497
    (I updated the OP with the link, too.)
    Sollaf wrote: »
    The one decent thing though, is once you unlock the ship, it is unlocked acrossed your account...
    My example was if I had more than one VA toon to put in a ship. If each got their own VA1 token, I could immediately put them in different ships. The stipend would let me get one ship unlocked for all the characters in four months, but it would be the same ship, and only if they were of the same faction. If even one of those toons was KDF, I'd need to wait at least another four months. I'm waiting eight months to unlock what I used to be able to do instantly before, with more variety/choice.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Additional things:

    The "emblem items" are now BoP instead of BoE.
    The Cov Mk X Cap 3 is not available at K7 anymore.
    The "original" Borg set items which are currently easy to get (one STF run each) will become significantly more expensive and time-consuming to acquire.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    You can't really contribute the DOff system to Free-to-play because it was supposed to be part of Season 4 and just didn't get done. That probably explains why it's the one system coming with F2P that people are generally happy with.

    Someone pointed out in game that the 8k refine limit was probably to keep people from cornering the C-Point market simply because they had the time or patience to grind for a lot of ore. Not to mention that once we go live all our current emblems and badges will be converted. You could buy up a lot of C-Points on the market with 500k refined dilitium...and some people will have the means to have that much.

    IF, and I say IF, this is the reason for the cap on refining....why not just put a cap on the amount of C-Points you can trade in a day. Not sale, but buy from the market? Would, in my opinion, be a much better way of controlling these people who want to corner the market to drive prices up or whatever.

    Cryptic is getting their money either way, and it won't gate the content of the game so severely for those who don't time to grind out their ore everyday. I know that I often get the bulk of my playing in on weekends, and like the OP said, if I spend 10 hours gaining ore I should be able to spend it immediately, or at the very least refine it.

    If I gain 80k ore on a weekend and have to hope I can find time during my busy week to jump in game and refine it, it's going to slow me down far worse that it should.

    I agree with most of the Original Post.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I don't include the DOFF system as part of F2P because that was supposed to happen regardless and really has nothing to do with F2P.

    By and large the F2P conversion has turned out to be absolute ****. I'm starting to understand why DStahl left, since it seems that PW is intent on giving existing players the shaft. I hope they'll come to their senses and make some changes to prove me wrong, but right now that's what it looks like. The experience for a current subscriber going to F2P should be fairly seamless. Instead the fact is the experience is getting much worse.

    Dilithium was sold as a way to consolidate currencies. Instead it's being used as a way to milk more money. At this point the addition of dilithium has turned out to be an absolute negative. It's easier to deal with a bunch of different currencies than pay the exorbitant rates now being charged for items and ships. The clear message is that we need to just buy and craft everything we need now because after F2P it's going to be 10 times harder.

    I feel that all of these changes are frankly disrespectful to current subscribers who either coughed up the money for an LTS or who subbed all this time. If they want to convince us that they have any sort of appreciation for our loyalty then they need to give us a lot more in "gold" to counter these highly negative changes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    mancom wrote: »
    Additional things:

    The "emblem items" are now BoP instead of BoE.
    The Cov Mk X Cap 3 is not available at K7 anymore.
    The "original" Borg set items which are currently easy to get (one STF run each) will become significantly more expensive and time-consuming to acquire.
    Oh, I didn't catch that the "Emblem Gear" is BoP now. Which makes sense since it's now linked to the time currency Dilithium. Can't have any player giving/selling their time to another player, now can we? I wonder what was the point of removing the Cap3 shield... (?!?) Guess I better stock up now.

    Yeah... I want to like Gozer's plan for STFs... That you get drops, but if you don't get what you want you can save up and buy what you want... The problem is the drop rate for the actual good stuff isn't guaranteed... You might only get a "throw away" Mk IX mine launcher that you don't need or want or has anything to do with the Borg Set. And the "save up" prices are still way to high. I think I broke down that you'd have to run through the STF missions upwards of 540 times to get one of each of all six sets...
    staalker wrote: »
    You can't really contribute the DOff system to Free-to-play because it was supposed to be part of Season 4 and just didn't get done...
    Nagorak wrote: »
    I don't include the DOFF system as part of F2P because that was supposed to happen regardless and really has nothing to do with F2P.
    I don't disagree that it was originally talked about to be part of the initial S4 release. But then so were many other features (like, oh I dunno, the Featured Episodes, the new KDF Academy, new tutorials, etc.), heck even the Gorn Remake, which was originally sold as a S3 feature, got spun up to cover for the missing "Big KDF S4 Changes". This game has, since Beta apparently, been full of missed deadlines, push backs, retellings, etc.

    No matter what it's origins were, the DOff System is being appropriated into the STO F2P Relaunch, and it's a great add to the game. I just have this little fear that They will roll the F2P on their own schedule whether DOff is ready or not, possibly delaying DOff... I'm willing to admit it's an unfounded fear, but one I can't shake.
    staalker wrote: »
    ...I agree with most of the Original Post.
    Thanks! :o
    Nagorak wrote: »
    ...By and large the F2P conversion has turned out to be absolute ****. I'm starting to understand why DStahl left, since it seems that PW is intent on giving existing players the shaft. I hope they'll come to their senses and make some changes to prove me wrong, but right now that's what it looks like. The experience for a current subscriber going to F2P should be fairly seamless. Instead the fact is the experience is getting much worse.
    I agree with you Nagorak. I really really want to keep hope that things will turn out alright. I know some of the Devs clearly are working hard to make some cool stuff (Heretic's DOff system, for example), and I hate lumping that kind of effort into the Craptastic feelings I have about STO's future, but Cryptic is leaving me with less and less to be positive about with each Tribble update.

    It's all so especially troubling when I see what Cryptic has/is doing with CO. That F2P System appears to be working wonderfully. Why do different?
    Nagorak wrote: »
    Dilithium was sold as a way to consolidate currencies. Instead it's being used as a way to milk more money. At this point the addition of dilithium has turned out to be an absolute negative. It's easier to deal with a bunch of different currencies than pay the exorbitant rates now being charged for items and ships. The clear message is that we need to just buy and craft everything we need now because after F2P it's going to be 10 times harder.
    Back that the SD Comic Con Meet the Devs, when Jesse talked about the fact that he was working on an Economy Consolidation for November-ish release we all thought it was going to be wonderful! How ignorant and naive we were, eh? Makes me sad to think he would have known back then what was coming...
    Nagorak wrote: »
    I feel that all of these changes are frankly disrespectful to current subscribers who either coughed up the money for an LTS or who subbed all this time...
    I have this feeling... It's only a theory with nothing to back it up. But I wonder if part of Cryptic's money problems are because there are "too many" LTS members who's subscription value has been used up. They've passed the "break even" point (which, for example, the people who paid $300 would reach at their Magnificent Veteran Reward, 600 day (20 month)).

    All these subscription assets they had are used up, but these players are still hanging around, using resources and demanding content, yet are now (financially speaking) liabilities to the bottom line.

    I can picture a lot of Star Trek Fan(atic)s jumped right on board with Lifetimes right at launch. Was it all LTS? No, surely, and obviously people bought their's long after. I'm only thinking that a large enough sum to be felt are at or near liability status, and all LTS eventually turn negative. I wonder if Cryptic sees that once F2P comes there simply won't be enough new subs (LTS or otherwise).

    How to fix? Make all players pay. Sub or not, you gate them so much as to steer them to that C-Store. The fact that you can pick-up still-asset LTS and regular mo-to-mo subs with the catch-all net of (Not So)MircoTransactions only sweetens the pie. Brilliant. :(

    Edit: I've re-written some of the OP, specifically about the new economy.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Oh, I didn't catch that the "Emblem Gear" is BoP now. Which makes sense since it's now linked to the time currency Dilithium. Can't have any player giving/selling their time to another player, now can we? I wonder what was the point of removing the Cap3 shield... (?!?) Guess I better stock up now.
    Indeed. Now _every_ major transaction between players will involve acquiring C-Points.

    Want to help your fleet crafter get Dilithium? He has to buy the Dilithium for C-Points from you (you can then gift it back to him if you're nice). Want to trade Dilithium-bought gear? Not possible. You can only sell people your Dilithium.

    The C-Store becomes an integral part of the game's economy.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011

    The C-Store becomes an integral part of the game's economy.

    And that is the point of "free" to play.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    CrustyMac wrote: »
    And that is the point of "free" to play.

    Yeah, but most people didn't realize that also meant "free" of fun or "free" of developer integrity.


    Z
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Reserved for additional changes...

    Well i dont mean any disrespect but what there going to say is well he is no longer with the company and there not responsible for his comints, so i bet every one quoting what he say means nothing to them.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Good Summery, its clear that in fact subscribers are indeed loosing out and having a lesser experience then is currently on live despite Cryptics claims subscribers wont notice much differences.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Well i dont mean any disrespect but what there going to say is well he is no longer with the company and there not responsible for his comints, so i bet every one quoting what he say means nothing to them.

    Actually it does serve a purpose.... it's good for a chuckle. Quoting former employee's as an example of why nothing should change pretty much weakens the whole argument.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    If all they do is nerf the transwarp ability with the t-5 excelsior.....i wont like it, but i can live with it.

    As far as the economy and progression model goes....we'll have to see what develops. Do i like it the way the premise is set up now? Heck no...because they wouldn't have implemented such an idea if that wasn't the direction they wanted to go in.

    Is it off base? IMO yes slightly.....They are going to have to make some fair concessions for those that have dumped much money just to play the game as they please. Without compromise, I fear that Cryptic is going to do nothing more than alienate their existing player base.

    People don't generally like change on a large scale such as this, so I'm trying like heck to keep an open mind..only I don't want to see a game I enjoy playing get steam rolled over what is perceived as good intentions. After all good intentions don't always equal good decisions.

    I have invested much in this game and in doing so I have invested much into cryptic s future. I do think Cryptic is a good producer and have played cryptic games in the past and have enjoyed them. I just don't want this game to be torpedoed when it doesn't have to be.

    They want to make money off of the new game model...I get that...only pride should not overshoot principal here.

    Re-evaluate the structure....and just when you think you have it figured out...double check and make sure. I will reserve judgement until it goes live I reckon..as it stands now though......Cryptic your F2P model and certain aspects are a hot mess. While I will concede some of the content your bringing to the table is absolutely genius and welcome.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I agree that a great deal of these changes are going to effect the subscribers in a negative way. There are good ideas that they are coming up with, time-gating subscribers is not one of them...

    In response to those who say "But games like WoW make it hard to get the elite gear":
    1. We aren't WoW and have never been like WoW
    2. The Elite Gear Is STF Gear
    3. They are subtracting from the sub experience, rather than adding lots of new stuff thats worth grinding for
    4. They are changing the value of what we have always had
    5. They are taking away our re-spec tokens
    6. They TRIED to take away our free ships, then took our VA token away
    7. It is not OK to say one thing, then do another, In Any Business.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    In conversion from holodeck to f2p tribble, we lost VA token for a free ship and probably the token for a shuttle ship.

    You need to complete the info for Excelsior T5: To use the transwarp, the ship will lost 1 slot for the transwarp console. Other ships gained 1 slot console to the extra console and Excelsion dont.

    Sorry for my bad english.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Another point from me:

    Tier 3 'advanced' ships:
    I find the way the Excelsior and the Nebula have been treated as unacceptable. These where ships that were available to players at Commander tier just as much as the Cheyenne, Olympic and other variants. Now, they've been turned into +1 ships and you have to pay the C-Store to get them.

    I strongly believe they should've been kept available as they are on Holodeck. Furthermore, I believe that if Cryptic wants us to have +1 Ships at our disposal in that tier... they should offer something new for users to obtain rather than the alternative.

    The Ambassador-class could make an ideal +1 counterpart to the Excelsior. People have been begging for a Venture-skinned Nebula, which would also make a nice +1 ship offering. I say give us something new to spend our money on, rather than nix us of something we already had and offer it back to us - a bit better - but as a C-Store item.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Well i dont mean any disrespect but what there going to say is well he is no longer with the company and there not responsible for his comints, so i bet every one quoting what he say means nothing to them.
    Actually it does serve a purpose.... it's good for a chuckle. Quoting former employee's as an example of why nothing should change pretty much weakens the whole argument.
    I could remove the quote and the rest of the list of changes would still stand for it's purpose: To track changes in gameplay between P2P/F2P, and to judge them (at least as told from my perspective/opinion) as good or bad. That said, I think the quote strengthens the argument.

    Dstahl wasn't just any employee. For a time he was the Executive Producer. He was the (figure)head of STO. When a President of the United States of America leaves office, you can bet the new Pres will be held accountable to previous Pres actions. Every new regime will make changes. A new Pres gains merit by changing unpolular policies, and loses points chainging popular policies. By quoting Dan, I am holding Cryptic to their "old" standards.

    It's about keeping score, and Dan's quote tells everyone where the starting line was.

    As things move negatively away from that line Cryptic is held accountable. If displeasure is expressed, Cryptic might revoke or rework the bad stuff (ship tokens were (mostly) given back, for instance) or even make improvements (I can't compliment Heretic enough for his amazing work and collaboration with the community on the DOff System). Ultimately it's their company and their product; their choice. Likewise, it's my money they'll lose if they push things too far. That's my choice. How else are they to know what's too far if they aren't informed? :)

    No disrespect felt from you CaptainMerzan. I welcome all such polite comments. Also, I'm amused that the Jollyrogers got a chuckle from his visit here. I'm curious, are you two content with how things are looking and how your subscription model is changing? How would you want things different?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    edit: off-topic, removed at the request of the OP. Sorry :o
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Cool thread, glad someone is keeping score. I'll keep my eye on this one.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    GenEricII wrote:

    Actually, it doesn't make me chuckle. If anything I'd shed a tear. I'd be saddened that we lost Mr. Stahl because PWI wants to turn STO into another Korean grind fest MMO and forced Dan out because he stood against it.

    It's been pointed out that PWI has/had a hands off policy towards their western purchases. Specifically with Torchlight. So it's really more likely this is all on Cryptic's shoulders, or at worst/best Cryptic egregiously misunderstanding PWI's directives.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    LeoKesler wrote: »
    In conversion from holodeck to f2p tribble, we lost VA token for a free ship and probably the token for a shuttle ship.

    The token for a shuttle comes specifically for the mission "The Vault", and as a shuttle is *required* for that mission, you'll still get your token for the (pretty lackluster) type 8 and whatever the KDF equivalent is.
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