It is very good to hear more of the reasoning behind the new economy, especially how EC is mainly for casual play while DL is more fore hard core play. That definitely helps me see exactly what your going for here, and how DL isnt even "needed" if you just want to play casually.
That said, the lack of a VA token is still an issue for people who are going to be subscribing every month. So how about this as a solution to that issue?
Do I want to make the game "grindy"? Not at all. I certainly don't want it that way for a casual player. But I do want to make it so having top end gear and having extra starships takes some real work. I want for those top end targets to be brag-worthy. I want them to have actual value to the players who achieve these goals. Some time after the game goes free-to-play, I would like to have a handful of people bragging that they have a full set of starships or that their flagship is equipped with top end gear... knowing that only people who were subscribers before F2P or who worked as hard as they did could say the same.
How does letting people "buy" their way to the good gear make something an achievement?
Because thats essentially what you get if people can buy the dilithium they need for the so call brag-worthy gear.
Rich kids simply buying their way through the game instead of earning things.
You'll never hear me accuse Cryptic of nickle and diming us anymore.
Thank you for proving my fears to be groundless. In fact, I'm also done complaining about F2p.
If you'll remove the 'more on the way' from the website or just give lifers the more you've promised on the website for the last 18 months, then you'll pretty much knock out my last concerns.
Looking forward to trying this and some kind of information on fixing Crafting so we can again make Blue & Purple Quality items at Even Mk's.
If you've indeed made it no longer a grind or pay system then I too and done complaining about the F2P economy.
If "bragging rights" and playing longer to make items "have more value" is more sugar coating for Grind of Pay... And if VA Ship Tokens are not given back for subscribers (vet reward) then my Pitchfork Team will NOT stand down.
Will there be any changes to the in-game stores other than price adjustments? For instance, will white Mk gear be added to EC stores so there is more variety for our EC, and will green/blue gear be added to crafting/dilithium stores at lower cost their their purple counterparts? I'd like to see more white gear added to the stores to buy with EC. We shouldn't be able to just buy phaser beam arrays and photon torpedos. I'd like to see the ability to buy canons, quantums, tetryon gear for EC, but at the common level. Also add in even marked items (although I will settle for just odd mked items).
But you are in fact locking out content by setting it to a daily, when in fact you could perfectly well keep it as it was but give a choice in the award. The Diithium Ore or a level appropriate item, with the former only being offered once a day.
This is not a good thing for an already, relatively, poor amount of content game.
You take away the option of repeatability and reward for exploration. Sure we can still explore a system, but for what when we are max level? I am honestly not sure what the purpose of having the star clusters now is in game.
Looking forward to trying this and some kind of information on fixing Crafting so we can again make Blue & Purple Quality items at Even Mk's.
If you've indeed made it no longer a grind or pay system then I too and done complaining about the F2P economy.
If "bragging rights" and playing longer to make items "have more value" is more sugar coating for Grind of Pay... And if VA Ship Tokens are not given back for subscribers (vet reward) then my Pitchfork Team will NOT stand down.
Agreed!
Restore the VA ship tokens or pitchforks will continue to fly!
But you are in fact locking out content by setting it to a daily, when in fact you could perfectly well keep it as it was but give a choice in the award. The Diithium Ore or a level appropriate item, with the former only being offered once a day.
This is not a good thing for an already, relatively, poor amount of content game.
You take away the option of repeatability and reward for exploration. Sure we can still explore a system, but for what when we are max level? I am honestly not sure what the purpose of having the star clusters now is in game.
In fact, as long as there is a daily refinement cap then there is no reason to limit anything to a daily. Because no matter how much ore you might earn, you still couldnt refine more than the daily amount.
In fact, as long as there is a daily refinement cap then there is no reason to limit anything to a daily. Because no matter how much ore you might earn, you still couldnt refine more than the daily amount.
Yeah, not sure why they've done both coz it's overkill. Strange how JHeinig doesn't show much to post about any of this since the Dilithium system is his responsibility.
The Currency Exchange is an experiment with something a little different from what other games have tried. Our goal is to make it so that you can truly get everything you want without spending any money if you have time to invest. And to make it so that players who have less time can spend money to get what they want.
Be a little different by being exactly like PWI... got it.
In fact, as long as there is a daily refinement cap then there is no reason to limit anything to a daily. Because no matter how much ore you might earn, you still couldnt refine more than the daily amount.
that is very true. Then what things do you think should remain daily? Are you just saying the exploration and PVP's should no longer be daily, or anything that is currently daily should be made not to be?
In fact, as long as there is a daily refinement cap then there is no reason to limit anything to a daily. Because no matter how much ore you might earn, you still couldnt refine more than the daily amount.
This is a very good point, either cap refinement or make dailies, a combination of both is far too restrictive.
In fact, as long as there is a daily refinement cap then there is no reason to limit anything to a daily. Because no matter how much ore you might earn, you still couldnt refine more than the daily amount.
What you folks are going for with the economy is pretty much what I assumed before this announcement. Because of that, I've been tolerant of the wackiness, and I think you've done a good job so far with the feedback, even though there probably are still wrinkles to iron out. Overall, I think it's a neat idea, and there seem to be a lot of options to earn dilithium, and the gating via refinery is a neat idea to moderate things.
However, I'll reiterate my biggest gripe: There is not that much differences between rarity of items.
So far we've gotten a fairly minor boost in damage based purely on rarity. The [Dam] quality adds what, half a mark to damage? Whoopdie doo. The [Acc] bonus is pretty much a throwaway quality outside of PvP. The [CritH] adds a measly 2% bonus to crit chance. The [CritD] quality is actually somewhat nice as it is, though.
Do something to make the rarity equate the time/money investment it would take to earn the items. The easiest thing to do would be bump up the damage bonus based on rarity. The [Dam] quality could use a beefing to make it worthwhile. Even better, having rarity boost the chances or magnitude of proc effects, even by a little, would be pretty cool.
As it stands, I just feel like you're saying if I come to your house, you'll give me a sandwich. If I do all of your chores and walk your dog every day for a week, you'll throw in a handful of chips.
I don't want a [Win] quality, but it's pretty silly that one dude with the purple Freak Beam Mk X [Acc] [Dam]x2 has almost the same item as the other guy with the green Freak Beam Mk XI [Acc].
that is very true. Then what things do you think should remain daily? Are you just saying the exploration and PVP's should no longer be daily, or anything that is currently daily should be made not to be?
I'm saying why not just make everything give DL ore as a reward and have no dailies. Because again, it really makes no difference how much you earn if you can only refine the daily amount. That way at least people can go about earning it the way they prefer and not feel like they have to do something they dont like(like PvP or Foundry missions or whatever) just to get enough ore to refine.
Thanks for the blog sdangelo, it's good to know the marcom-version on the thinking behind the economy
Not sure I'm fully on-board yet. You need to bring back the VA token. Subscribers weren't supposed to lose anything.
If you hadn't blown-up the C-Store prices then subscribing for a $15/mo per character unlock token that can't be discharged/recovered, wouldn't be an exploit over an as currently priced $15 C-Store ship that unlocks per account and can be reclaimed as often as desired. :rolleyes:
What happened to that whole "next week we'll talk about what happens to your characters when F2P goes Live" bit?
...we get an answer to this. Because I've put in a LOT of time to my existing Holodeck characters. Yes, LOTS of time on CharacterS. I expect that time to not be wasted or washed away in a cruddy conversion system.
Also as other have pointed out in the Blog #10 thread. Dil items aren't that desirable if we can craft or STF for better items.
In fact, as long as there is a daily refinement cap then there is no reason to limit anything to a daily. Because no matter how much ore you might earn, you still couldnt refine more than the daily amount.
In order for this all to work, we need to have something valuable that is only available for Cryptic Points, and we need something valuable that is only available for Dilithium.
FALSE.
C-Store points should be a shortcut to get something available for Dilithium. If something is only available for C-Store points, and it has a game-play affect (say, an extra console slot or an extra Boff Slot), then it's pay to win.
And please, stop insulting our intelligence by saying you can trade for Dilithium and get C-Store points and get something sans real world money. Money is paid into the system in order for those C-Store points to exist at all.
The public lines about the Dilithium exchange system and the TX.5 ships are transparent lies, and they're not even half-believable.
The system can work if the C-Store to Dilithium conversion rate is fixed at a certain rate, so that C-Store points are faster and cheaper than grinding Dilithium. Impatient players will buy C-Store points, patient players will grind Dilithium and exchange, but the idea of gating certain ships or gear or what-have-you in order to force those conversions and justify money gouging is immoral and unacceptable.
It is very good to hear more of the reasoning behind the new economy, especially how EC is mainly for casual play while DL is more fore hard core play. That definitely helps me see exactly what your going for here, and how DL isnt even "needed" if you just want to play casually.
That said, the lack of a VA token is still an issue for people who are going to be subscribing every month. So how about this as a solution to that issue?
omg, when will you people learn why they dont give va tokens. im a monthly sub and that does not bother me. i understand the concept. sorry to say this. its not a bash or flame or troll but you really have to be "dumb" if you cant see why.
What you folks are going for with the economy is pretty much what I assumed before this announcement. Because of that, I've been tolerant of the wackiness, and I think you've done a good job so far with the feedback, even though there probably are still wrinkles to iron out. Overall, I think it's a neat idea, and there seem to be a lot of options to earn dilithium, and the gating via refinery is a neat idea to moderate things.
However, I'll reiterate my biggest gripe: There is not that much differences between rarity of items.
So far we've gotten a fairly minor boost in damage based purely on rarity. The [Dam] quality adds what, half a mark to damage? Whoopdie doo. The [Acc] bonus is pretty much a throwaway quality outside of PvP. The [CritH] adds a measly 2% bonus to crit chance. The [CritD] quality is actually somewhat nice as it is, though.
Do something to make the rarity equate the time/money investment it would take to earn the items. The easiest thing to do would be bump up the damage bonus based on rarity. The [Dam] quality could use a beefing to make it worthwhile. Even better, having rarity boost the chances or magnitude of proc effects, even by a little, would be pretty cool.
As it stands, I just feel like you're saying if I come to your house, you'll give me a sandwich. If I do all of your chores and walk your dog every day for a week, you'll throw in a handful of chips.
I don't want a [Win] quality, but it's pretty silly that one dude with the purple Freak Beam Mk X [Acc] [Dam]x2 has almost the same item as the other guy with the green Freak Beam Mk XI [Acc].
I agree, I am all for making Very Rare Items, Very Rare. Harder to get, but as is stated in the above. These Items should be More Special. Actually the new STF gear is a good example. They at least seem alot more special :rolleyes:
I don't want a [Win] quality, but it's pretty silly that one dude with the purple Freak Beam Mk X [Acc] [Dam]x2 has almost the same item as the other guy with the green Freak Beam Mk XI [Acc].
This is something the Season 4 changes never really addressed. It tried to, but the only difference is that a purple in a given tier WILL be slightly better than a common in that same tier. It should be more than slightly better to incentivise you to spend dilithium or crafting resources. And those purples should still give advantage in the next tier, but not at the expense of removing the incentive to go for the purples in that following tier.
This feeds into another issue, which is that we actually spend a rather short time in each rank to really need to upgrade our gear, and since we have so few item slots its hardly worth the time until later in the game or if you are on a higher difficulty setting from lower levels.
I would like to hear why Merits have been removed then?
So we have something to sink EC into. The rationale could be that all the resources put into teaching your tactical officer High Yield torpedo (the holodeck hours, the simulations, the weapons testing etc) expended ship's energy in some way.
The only good thing that I'm taking from this latest dev blog is that the Dilithium prices are going down considerably. Everything else sucks.
You still have a long way to earning this player's trust in the economy department. Give us back our VA token, remove or raise the refinement cap, fix the prices on the C-Store (1600-2000CP for a ship is way too much), and give us an IN-GAME method of earning C-Store items (and, no the Dilithium-to-CP exchange doesn't count as real money is exchanging hands somewhere in the process).
The key thing to note here is that Cryptic will not be selling Dilithium, so there will only be as much Dilithium available as the player base wants to trade away. The laws of supply and demand come into play here. If Dilithium is difficult to come by, it will have a high value. If it's easy to come by, its value will decrease.
This is an extremely slippery slope that I do hope that you have considered. There will be plenty of people who are going to game the system, particularly the gold farmers. You think it was bad before for the EC spammers? If you insist on letting there be an exchange, at least offer the option of buying directly from you. Doing it this way just encourages what most other MMO companies consider "illegal".
I'm saying why not just make everything give DL ore as a reward and have no dailies. Because again, it really makes no difference how much you earn if you can only refine the daily amount. That way at least people can go about earning it the way they prefer and not feel like they have to do something they dont like(like PvP or Foundry missions or whatever) just to get enough ore to refine.
Now that I've considered it, there are two reasons I can think of to put daily limits on previously unlimited content:
Makes players log in more frequently in order to obtain Dilithium. If those areas remain unlimited I could farm up as much Ore as I wanted then log in for 1 min every day to refine my stash. Limits make you log in each day and play.
STO has largely been a solo game. The introduction of Calendar Events for Dilithium makes STO much more a social game. Daily limits will also make players engage in these social events more because solo methods are now limited.
Comments
That said, the lack of a VA token is still an issue for people who are going to be subscribing every month. So how about this as a solution to that issue?
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=236237
How does letting people "buy" their way to the good gear make something an achievement?
Because thats essentially what you get if people can buy the dilithium they need for the so call brag-worthy gear.
Rich kids simply buying their way through the game instead of earning things.
Definately looking forward to this coming to Holodeck now, as I was quite apprehensive before hand.
Good to understand the plan, and I am excited to see how the Currency Exchange works out.
You'll never hear me accuse Cryptic of nickle and diming us anymore.
Thank you for proving my fears to be groundless. In fact, I'm also done complaining about F2p.
If you'll remove the 'more on the way' from the website or just give lifers the more you've promised on the website for the last 18 months, then you'll pretty much knock out my last concerns.
I couldn't be happier!
I see that a new Qin Variant is being made in the chart in this Blog post.
Since the Qin is being looked at, can you slip in the changes you guys said you were making TWO months ago:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=3694104&postcount=9
And can you apply the fix both the original Qin as well as the variant?
If you've indeed made it no longer a grind or pay system then I too and done complaining about the F2P economy.
If "bragging rights" and playing longer to make items "have more value" is more sugar coating for Grind of Pay... And if VA Ship Tokens are not given back for subscribers (vet reward) then my Pitchfork Team will NOT stand down.
This is not a good thing for an already, relatively, poor amount of content game.
You take away the option of repeatability and reward for exploration. Sure we can still explore a system, but for what when we are max level? I am honestly not sure what the purpose of having the star clusters now is in game.
Agreed!
Restore the VA ship tokens or pitchforks will continue to fly!
In fact, as long as there is a daily refinement cap then there is no reason to limit anything to a daily. Because no matter how much ore you might earn, you still couldnt refine more than the daily amount.
Yeah, not sure why they've done both coz it's overkill. Strange how JHeinig doesn't show much to post about any of this since the Dilithium system is his responsibility.
that is very true. Then what things do you think should remain daily? Are you just saying the exploration and PVP's should no longer be daily, or anything that is currently daily should be made not to be?
This is a very good point, either cap refinement or make dailies, a combination of both is far too restrictive.
That is actually an excellent point.
Indeed. This isn't a new system for PWI games.
However, I'll reiterate my biggest gripe: There is not that much differences between rarity of items.
So far we've gotten a fairly minor boost in damage based purely on rarity. The [Dam] quality adds what, half a mark to damage? Whoopdie doo. The [Acc] bonus is pretty much a throwaway quality outside of PvP. The [CritH] adds a measly 2% bonus to crit chance. The [CritD] quality is actually somewhat nice as it is, though.
Do something to make the rarity equate the time/money investment it would take to earn the items. The easiest thing to do would be bump up the damage bonus based on rarity. The [Dam] quality could use a beefing to make it worthwhile. Even better, having rarity boost the chances or magnitude of proc effects, even by a little, would be pretty cool.
As it stands, I just feel like you're saying if I come to your house, you'll give me a sandwich. If I do all of your chores and walk your dog every day for a week, you'll throw in a handful of chips.
I don't want a [Win] quality, but it's pretty silly that one dude with the purple Freak Beam Mk X [Acc] [Dam]x2 has almost the same item as the other guy with the green Freak Beam Mk XI [Acc].
I'm saying why not just make everything give DL ore as a reward and have no dailies. Because again, it really makes no difference how much you earn if you can only refine the daily amount. That way at least people can go about earning it the way they prefer and not feel like they have to do something they dont like(like PvP or Foundry missions or whatever) just to get enough ore to refine.
Not sure I'm fully on-board yet. You need to bring back the VA token. Subscribers weren't supposed to lose anything.
If you hadn't blown-up the C-Store prices then subscribing for a $15/mo per character unlock token that can't be discharged/recovered, wouldn't be an exploit over an as currently priced $15 C-Store ship that unlocks per account and can be reclaimed as often as desired. :rolleyes:
Also, I too what to know when...
...we get an answer to this. Because I've put in a LOT of time to my existing Holodeck characters. Yes, LOTS of time on CharacterS. I expect that time to not be wasted or washed away in a cruddy conversion system.
Also as other have pointed out in the Blog #10 thread. Dil items aren't that desirable if we can craft or STF for better items.
Excellent point.
FALSE.
C-Store points should be a shortcut to get something available for Dilithium. If something is only available for C-Store points, and it has a game-play affect (say, an extra console slot or an extra Boff Slot), then it's pay to win.
And please, stop insulting our intelligence by saying you can trade for Dilithium and get C-Store points and get something sans real world money. Money is paid into the system in order for those C-Store points to exist at all.
The public lines about the Dilithium exchange system and the TX.5 ships are transparent lies, and they're not even half-believable.
The system can work if the C-Store to Dilithium conversion rate is fixed at a certain rate, so that C-Store points are faster and cheaper than grinding Dilithium. Impatient players will buy C-Store points, patient players will grind Dilithium and exchange, but the idea of gating certain ships or gear or what-have-you in order to force those conversions and justify money gouging is immoral and unacceptable.
omg, when will you people learn why they dont give va tokens. im a monthly sub and that does not bother me. i understand the concept. sorry to say this. its not a bash or flame or troll but you really have to be "dumb" if you cant see why.
I agree, I am all for making Very Rare Items, Very Rare. Harder to get, but as is stated in the above. These Items should be More Special. Actually the new STF gear is a good example. They at least seem alot more special :rolleyes:
They werent going to give ANY tokens a week ago, but now they are in response to player feedback.
This is something the Season 4 changes never really addressed. It tried to, but the only difference is that a purple in a given tier WILL be slightly better than a common in that same tier. It should be more than slightly better to incentivise you to spend dilithium or crafting resources. And those purples should still give advantage in the next tier, but not at the expense of removing the incentive to go for the purples in that following tier.
This feeds into another issue, which is that we actually spend a rather short time in each rank to really need to upgrade our gear, and since we have so few item slots its hardly worth the time until later in the game or if you are on a higher difficulty setting from lower levels.
THAT should be addressed.
So we have something to sink EC into. The rationale could be that all the resources put into teaching your tactical officer High Yield torpedo (the holodeck hours, the simulations, the weapons testing etc) expended ship's energy in some way.
You still have a long way to earning this player's trust in the economy department. Give us back our VA token, remove or raise the refinement cap, fix the prices on the C-Store (1600-2000CP for a ship is way too much), and give us an IN-GAME method of earning C-Store items (and, no the Dilithium-to-CP exchange doesn't count as real money is exchanging hands somewhere in the process).
This is an extremely slippery slope that I do hope that you have considered. There will be plenty of people who are going to game the system, particularly the gold farmers. You think it was bad before for the EC spammers? If you insist on letting there be an exchange, at least offer the option of buying directly from you. Doing it this way just encourages what most other MMO companies consider "illegal".
Now that I've considered it, there are two reasons I can think of to put daily limits on previously unlimited content: