test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Path to F2P Dev Blog #9

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited October 2011 in Galactic News Network [PC]
Stephen checks in with an update on the Tribble test server, explains more about the test, and how we're working on addressing your concerns on Tribble.

Link to the Article
Post edited by Unknown User on
«1345

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I find it amazing how much that blog says without actually telling us anything.... >.<
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    thanks,

    i look forward to the upcoming changes to try and smooth over some of the areas that need fixing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    SDangelo wrote:
    It's clear from your feedback that not all of the things we are trying so far are really improvements. In fact, in some cases they are big steps backward or they are simply broken. We are listening to the community's feedback in the forums, and we are collecting data on how players are really playing with the new changes. All of this is being evaluated and going back into making the game better.

    At least this is promising, they're admitting that the current build is not what people want and it's broken.
    I guess we'll see in a couple weeks if it's fixed or not.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    First Step to counter a Mistake:

    Admitting it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Reads like a Political Speech.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Didn't really address anything other than to say "yeah, we hear you aren't happy."
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Alexraptor wrote: »
    I find it amazing how much that blog says without actually telling us anything.... >.<

    Yeah...honestly, this is just a repeat of the posts D'Angelo has been making over the past couple of weeks. Dont get me wrong, I'm glad to hear they are listening. But I'll just repeat what I said in another thread: when the appropriate changes are actually made I will definitely commend the team for listening. However, I dont think anyone should take any assurances that the team is listening or that changes are coming as actual solutions until we see the results.

    Also, here is the problem with not telling us the plan: we have no chance to respond to it until it goes to Tribble. And by that time actual development time has been used implementing it. And that means if people dont like it then that time was wasted. If you tell us what you plan to do before doing the development to put it on Tribble, you can get feedback and see whether people like it or not.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Jared1701 wrote: »
    At least this is promising, they're admitting that the current build is not what people want and it's broken.
    I guess we'll see in a couple weeks if it's fixed or not.

    Hope ... Is that a candle burning in the distance? ... a small sliver of light? :)

    Yeah...honestly, this is just a repeat of the posts D'Angelo has been making over the past couple of weeks. I'll just repeat what I said in another thread: when the appropriate changes are actually made I will definitely commend the team for listening. However, I dont think anyone should take any assurances that the team is listening or that changes are coming as actual solutions until we see the actual results.

    Nagus is indeed wise. .. Caution is always a good thing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Hope ... Is that a candle burning in the distance?

    If the forums of late have been any indication, my guess would be that it is the Tribble server...on fire. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Rule of Acquisition 199: Hear everything, believe nothing.


    Rule of Acquisition 57. Good customers are as rare as latinum -treasure them.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    wow..that told us......nothing, absolutly nothing, what was the point of that?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I am really enjoying the F2P Beta Test. The Doff System is so much fun, and makes the fact that while i am really busy with uni atm and not able to play for any great length of time, i can get up in the morning, set my assignments, head to uni and still earn xp and various rewards for when i return home. For someone that can not be on as much as they would like, this is a great addition to STO. I just hope i have enough time to earn the rewards for Holodeck. I'll keep my fingers crossed and get online as much as i can (uni work always comes first), so we'll see how i go.

    My only concern is the VA only C-Store ships which is putting a little downer on everything. I really hope the message from the past remains, that we can grind in-game for these ships, and that they will be obtainable via in-game means. This does go back to the days when the Oberth was released and the dawn of the Console Ships. It was stressed that in-game means would be the goal, i just hope that this is adhered to.
    Because i don't mind the grind, as i already did that in the past with my D'Kyr. It took me a good 3 months tor so, but it felt great when i got the 500 Emblems. I was so happy. I don't want things to be made easy or less of a grind, i just don't want a cash only option either.

    Other than that, i think you are all doing a great job and it was nice to finally put so many faces to the devs i only knew by their handles (thanks STOked!). Keep up the good work and i look forward to the next few weeks and more builds.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Actually he did tell us something. He has told his team not to tell us what is being planned, which given the current situation might not be bad.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    i think they told us alot. they told us they seen everone is very mad about dilithum and they will try to fix that issue. thats seems to be the biggest issue atm in these fourms.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I am anxious to see what the changes are.

    I've enjoyed the DOff system. I also like the new events. To a degree, it is kind of a challenge to have to carefully plan how to spend energy credits and dilithium. That said, the economy is way out of whack.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    StormShade wrote:
    Stephen checks in with an update on the Tribble test server, explains more about the test, and how we're working on addressing your concerns on Tribble.

    Link to the Article

    Yep - and we see now how Stephen D'Angelo's attitude about communicating some changes differs from what Daniel Stahl and some Devs did in the past:
    Quote from Dev Blog #9:
    You may have noticed that while we have been posting to acknowledge that various game play elements are not working, we are not posting how we intend to fix them. We are not telegraphing changes until we get a chance to try them out internally to make sure that they’re satisfactory. Usually this happens all the way up until the next build makes it to Tribble. I have told the team that it's better to be quiet than to post answers that turn out to be different from what we actually end up doing. Misinformation can be worse than silence in some cases.

    Now, some players may applaud this as it avoids letting players know of a change they might have wanted that didn't make it past internal testing for whatever reason (and that happened before and yes, some people were upset.)

    BUT - Right now - on Tribble we have a system that is WELL RECEIVED - and which some people feel is the best thing to hit in this Beta Test period; and that's the Duty Officer System; and I think it's so well received BECAUSE Heretic (under Daniel Stahl) was ENCOURAGED to talk to the STO Playerbase on the Forums ALL DURING ITS DEVELOPMENT - and long before infernal playtesting started; and again (IMO), as a result, it's the most well received aspect of the Beta Test.

    Now, from a clinical development standpoint Stephen D'Angelo's standpoint on the Devs keeping quiet does make sense and is a different attitude then Dan Stahl had (at least as how I'm reading it, some people may see it differently); BUT, I think it's BAD during a Beta cycle (with limited development time, even with the team working at a fever pitch, which I'm sure they are); to NOT use the interested players who have been playing the game intimately and have been active on the forums providing feedback on the game changes since the original beta in 2008 as a sounding board to different perspective (if you guys find the feedback valid; and among all the rants and ridiculous stuff - there IS a lot of valid feedback here too); BEFORE you waste development time - and then based on later player feedback need to use more time to fix something, that may not have been needed if you solicited some feedback prior to committing development resources.

    Another example of this from just under a year ago, was the Crafting System revamp. The team was all ready to push another Crafting System change to Tribble for testing (it had been done and iterated internally); yet, BEFORE it was put live, the change was leaked to the forums; and BASED on Feedback over one weekend; the Dev team decided to do one more iteration right before pushing it to Tribble; and as a result that initial iteration was BETTER received and required less iteration work later as a result.

    I think the STO team has made good use of pre-feedback in the past, and I think the past oneness under DStahl has solved more issues quicker than any it may have cause in the long run in the past 18 months up to the point where Stephen D'Angelo took over as interim EP.

    Just something else to consider (and again, with the "Before the end of the year" stated time frame for STO F2P launch, the Holiday season approach; and thus 8 - 10 patches to get everything in shape; I don't see "plenty of time" myself, even if that how Stephen D'Angelo wants to paint the situation. (IMO)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I have been reading the forums and it's clear that some people are attributing gameplay changes to the transition to the free-to-play model. The truth is that with the exception of C-Store changes, very few of the changes being made to the game are related to this transition. Instead, almost every change is intended to make the game better for everyone.
    Ah, so the whole gating Dilithium behind several checks and balances is to make playing STO better for everyone? I can not wait to see how you make that possible because right now, I have serious doubts.

    Examples of why I have doubts:

    1) Being forced to buy a ship I might not need or want to rank up is bad design, especially if I already bought a c-store ship of the tier, which will not count for this (note, Holodeck has this exact same issue too).

    2) Locking out what missions give Dilithium based on level means that a RALH can not get Dilithium except at Gamma Orionis locations, STFs, Events or randomly lucky Doff missions.

    3) Locking out Gamma Orionis access until someone finishes the Cardie episodes means they will be VA long before they have access to most/all high tier Dilithium granting missions (at least at current Skill Point reward levels for Episodes).

    4) Leaving anyone that leveled past RALH during the first week with no choice but to grind 100k+ Dilithium or buy more C-store points on Holodeck just to get enough points to buy a T5/VA ship was the best way to show that you totally have the players' interests at heart. :(

    5) I expect this one to get fixed but will mention it anyway. Episode rewards do not scale unless they were originally FEs or certain special missions.

    Too many more examples I could give. Please, please remove my doubts.

    EDIT: Okay, the new changes about ship acquisition have ceased my doubts except for the first issue about requiring you to take a ship to rank up, please make this go away.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I love the latest blog and this really caught my attention:
    sdangelo wrote: »
    Misinformation can be worse than silence in some cases.

    This is very true. Especially when you have a lot of over analyzing going on right now.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I have been reading the forums and it's clear that some people are attributing gameplay changes to the transition to the free-to-play model. The truth is that with the exception of C-Store changes, very few of the changes being made to the game are related to this transition. Instead, almost every change is intended to make the game better for everyone. Going free-to-play is our chance to expose millions of new users to the game, and we want Star Trek Online to be bigger and more fun than it has ever been before.

    So then the C-Store price increases were always expected?

    Even when the former EP was quoted, by multiple sources, that in all likelihood, prices would decrease?

    I'm sorry, but I just can't get over that little snafu there... it's just plain wrong. Instead of 1200 CP for a VA ship, it's 1600. Oh I get it, the stipend makes up for that difference?

    So maybe I should just downgrade this snafu to a communication of a half-truth?
    You may have noticed that while we have been posting to acknowledge that various game play elements are not working, we are not posting how we intend to fix them. We are not telegraphing changes until we get a chance to try them out internally to make sure that they’re satisfactory. Usually this happens all the way up until the next build makes it to Tribble. I have told the team that it's better to be quiet than to post answers that turn out to be different from what we actually end up doing. Misinformation can be worse than silence in some cases.

    So much for transparency...

    You should really take a note from Heretic and Gozer -- they've not only been transparent about how they're going to fix things, but they're even incorporating ideas from the community! Keeping us in the dark about how you plan on fixing other things is just a step in the wrong direction.

    Sure you invite a lot of moaning and groaning from the community w/ transparency, but at least we're equal partners in making this game a success.

    I cannot help but feel you're taking us a step backwards w/ this move.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I think the Dev Blog was a good one, simply because it reinforces something that I agree with, telling us when they see something is wrong, but not necessarily saying exactly how they intend on fixing it. I want to know when glaring issues are being looked at and worked on. I don't need to know the specifics, because that's not my job. I don't need to know about the 15 iterative attempts that DIDN'T make the cut. I DO want to know that when something is painful to do, they're at least working on it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Alexraptor wrote: »
    I find it amazing how much that blog says without actually telling us anything.... >.<
    Yeah...honestly, this is just a repeat of the posts D'Angelo has been making over the past couple of weeks. I'll just repeat what I said in another thread: when the appropriate changes are actually made I will definitely commend the team for listening. However, I dont think anyone should take any assurances that the team is listening or that changes are coming as actual solutions until we see the results.
    /QFT. Alex and the Nagus are Wise. :D

    I think people, myself included, are used to previous Tribble builds, where we get a couple days, maybe a week or three, to test, but then in perfect "Ready or not here I come!"-style, the build gets pushed to Holodeck and the fixes, tweaks, etc. happen (or not) there on the Live server.

    It's clear they're taking a different methodology here, which I want to hope means we'll get a "cleaner" version to hit live. Still, the Devs keep talking about how this is going to be a long Tribble Test Cycle with multiple iterations. I'd like a better idea of how long we should expect... I understand things are fluid, but surely internally they have a scheduled goal they'd like to hit. What's that goal? Do they want to release in two weeks? A month? Six weeks? By December? Janaury? Even a ball park of which month they're aiming for the big F2P release would be nice.

    If I knew they were planning for a Dec 14th Release Date (made up number), I'd feel a lot less pressure for them to get it right right now!

    Anywho, as Blackman said, the first step to fixing a mistake is admitting it. So here's hoping we're already at the worse possible Tribble Beta, and that it will only get better from here. :o
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    While I am truly happy Mr D'Angelo that you stated you are listening ( and I do hope that is the case) you have to understand our (the players) point of view. Words are good, communication is good, but the followthrough actions speak more volumes. While I do understand what you all are going through, you all have to understand that in this case, you have to find that sweet spot where you and the players can have changes that everyone can live with. Again, a prime example of a f2p setup that works for players and the company is LOTRO. Their version of 'accolades" takes those accolade points and turns them into useful currency that can be used in their store. Being able to spend accolade points to exchange them for cpoints or refined dilithium would be a good start. Don't get me wrong, I like the accolades, but having useless accolade points is ultimately useless without being able to do something with those points.

    As for more feedback on f2p, I would recommend that the different fronts (romulan/cardassian/borg/breen/undine) be gated off to f2p players and offered to f2pers as content packs. that way, while they could technically level on the klingon front alone (lot of grinding) it would encourage them to either buy these "front" packs, or sub and get full access. (again, taking the similar setup that LOTRO has.) It does work, and the community over there overall has no problems with it, and it WORKS.

    As far as the dilithium issue, you will always have dilithium farmers ( either legitimate players or not) the refinement cap honestly makes ZERO sense. There just aren't enough ways to get dilithium ore to honestly warrant this. You want players to hit endgame content, but at the same time you are also saying that those who have reached level cap got there too fast. This is a case where you have to realize that you can't have your cake and eat it too the way you are going about it.

    Now I know there are those that will see this and say "LOTRO? This is STO not LOTRO!" That's not my point. my point is that as a f2p and sub business model it WORKS for both the company AND the players. with the business model being a success, why would you NOT want to emulate it?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    While I value communication, I also agree that misinformation can be worse than silence.

    I think there's a viable middle ground, overall, where devs can hint at things, offer questions instead of answers. Let tweet leaks speak for themselves and, most importantly, remind us that they are human beings and show us that they are busy... without falling into the trap of promising things based on vapor.

    One example of that that works for me is how MHighson showed STOked his work with holstered weapons and low gravity suits, showing us that he's testing things while admitting it may be a very long time before we see some of that and possibly never.

    I think engineering reports looked too much like patch notes. Hints became promises. At the same time, we as a community can't go on nothing, especially with long dry spells on mission content and new features.

    I like how Champions shows off concept art.

    Once the F2P transition is done, you know what I'd like? Just a nice, juicy, monthly dose of things like footage of the humanoid on the arachnoid body, Gorn in Starfleet uniforms, new weapons being tested, spliced with concept art. No explanation. No time table. Just maybe 5 whole minutes a month showcasing what's being spitballed internally.

    Then, maybe a weekly glance at the whiteboard. I dunno how many of you follow comics but DC Comics had (and has kindof abandoned) this running thing in its Booster Gold comics of showing a white board belonging to a time traveler named Rip Hunter and it would be covered in riddles. Something like that.

    Don't make us promises or give us spoilers, for the most part. Show us that you're busy.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Yeah...honestly, this is just a repeat of the posts D'Angelo has been making over the past couple of weeks. Dont get me wrong, I'm glad to hear they are listening. But I'll just repeat what I said in another thread: when the appropriate changes are actually made I will definitely commend the team for listening. However, I dont think anyone should take any assurances that the team is listening or that changes are coming as actual solutions until we see the results.

    My feelings exactly.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I think the purpose of this one was simple. In countless threads they have been repeating the same thing over and over again. And yet, people continue with the same questions/comments/concerns. I believe it was his intent to have it in a general area that those who do not use the dev tracker to see it clear that they are planning on tweaks to the system and that what is on tribble does not mean it will be like that live.

    Could he have offered more? Maybe. But this issue with the dilithium was the hottest issue for all players, I believe.

    There will be those who grab the pitchforks and torches at anything. That being said, if the f2p was going live tomorrow (lets say) and this issue with the dilithium was still unresolved, then there would be validation to those who are asking why is it this way.

    Just my thoughts.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Yep, that read like a politician blowing smoke until they can think of something to actually say (quick,were his lips moving?) to address our issues. The dilithium system is not the only (or even the main) problem, it is that everything is now gated so much I feel like I am wearing a straight jacket trying to play.

    The build in Tribble is not only not fun, it is the polar opposite of fun. I tried to play for several hours last night and it was frankly horrible, even worse on the Klingon side than the Fed side because that unbroken mission chain requires more grinding in the middle.

    Tribble currently feels like This instead of what it is supposed to be which is this This. You guys have gone way too far this time and it's time to look back at the changes and try to figure out what we were thinking.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    You may have noticed that while we have been posting to acknowledge that various game play elements are not working, we are not posting how we intend to fix them. We are not telegraphing changes until we get a chance to try them out internally to make sure that they’re satisfactory. Usually this happens all the way up until the next build makes it to Tribble. I have told the team that it's better to be quiet than to post answers that turn out to be different from what we actually end up doing. Misinformation can be worse than silence in some cases.

    You know. Dstahl had to clam up during the transition for legal reasons beyond his control. IT was NOT a good thing for the community. Right now you have people guessing as to what your intent is with this dilithium system. Nothing in your blog posts tells me anything. We don't know what direction you are planning on going with this and peoples guesses are already starting to permeate outside of this little community.

    We are already being forced to endure multiple radical changes already. The last thing this community needs is to be stone walled.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Double post. I need a new phone
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Does this mean that the holodeck to tribble character copy, which should have happened this week, is going to be postponed?
    Probably a good idea, but I was just asking for a confirmation. No harm
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I guess the blog post had to be made because not everyone reads the forums. And its a type of damage control before word gets out the STO F2P model isn't any fun.

    When people hear a game is going F2P the first thing they want to know is what's the catch. And Cryptic seems to really want to down play that the new currency system is not the catch that will force folks to hand over money.
Sign In or Register to comment.