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could STO space ever be 'vast'?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited April 2011 in Ten Forward
Are there any flight sim fans here who have played FS9 or FSX? Ever played multiplayer FS? The sky is vast...the planet earth and it's sky is to scale as are the distances. In multiplayer the only time you ever see other airplanes are at the airport, flying in formation, air racing/competitions...etc. and if you do see them in the sky they are usually tiny dots until you are really close. It really gives you the impression that the sky is vast, as it really is in life.

One of my biggest gripes with this game is that 'space' seems like a few crowded city blocks. I don't feel like i am in a tiny ship travelling trough the massive universe. I know people aren't going to sit in front of the computer travelling for weeks to get to their destination...they don't have to. The travel time isnt really the problem, it is the sense of scale that is. Travel times could stay the same but what about making sector space empty of other ships from the player's point of view. Nothing but stars/systems and stellar phenomena.

The social aspect wouldn't be changed too much. Instead of open space, how about solar systems, starbases, specific locations...etc would be the social meeting places for your friends and fleetmates. Perhaps a grid system could be developed too for meeeting in open space, which would be come open space block instances. You tell your fleetmates to meet at XYZ coordinates.

For you fleeters you also could travel in formation as well through sector space. There could be an option when you leave system space to travel with other players or alone. Maybe You could also have the option of joining or leaving a formation while in cruise.

For deep space combat it could be a little more like submarine combat. Your BO could report somthing like 'Long range sensors detect enemy contacts bearing XYZ...do you wish to follow/engage/evade?'

Anyway just a few ideas for sector space to make it feel more like open space. There are some positives to it too. Canon fanatics wouldn't have their 'view' spoiled as much by non canonships flying around in sector space or see my/others silly ship names as much.
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    What you are asking for does not take into consideration the number of players in the game. In FS9 or FSX you normally do not find more then a few people online at a time. Most of the time it is just you and AI planes and whatever ground detail you have turned on. Once you start dialing in actual players there is a thing called "latency" and such that effects the lag that you experience. Video cards can not actually draw players that are loading into the visual range very effienctly because they are hindered by that lag issue. The reason FS model seem to do well at drawing distances is because they do not deall with any of that on a large scale.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    They also just increased the number of people in each instance not that long ago because people had been complaining that they saw too few people flying around and that it didn't really feel like a multiplayer game with so few ships in the areas. So if you make these changes, people will complain again.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Are there any flight sim fans here who have played FS9 or FSX? Ever played multiplayer FS? The sky is vast...the planet earth and it's sky is to scale as are the distances. In multiplayer the only time you ever see other airplanes are at the airport, flying in formation, air racing/competitions...etc. and if you do see them in the sky they are usually tiny dots until you are really close. It really gives you the impression that the sky is vast, as it really is in life.

    One of my biggest gripes with this game is that 'space' seems like a few crowded city blocks. I don't feel like i am in a tiny ship travelling trough the massive universe. I know people aren't going to sit in front of the computer travelling for weeks to get to their destination...they don't have to. The travel time isnt really the problem, it is the sense of scale that is. Travel times could stay the same but what about making sector space empty of other ships from the player's point of view. Nothing but stars/systems and stellar phenomena.

    The social aspect wouldn't be changed too much. Instead of open space, how about solar systems, starbases, specific locations...etc would be the social meeting places for your friends and fleetmates. Perhaps a grid system could be developed too for meeeting in open space, which would be come open space block instances. You tell your fleetmates to meet at XYZ coordinates.

    For you fleeters you also could travel in formation as well through sector space. There could be an option when you leave system space to travel with other players or alone. Maybe You could also have the option of joining or leaving a formation while in cruise.

    For deep space combat it could be a little more like submarine combat. Your BO could report somthing like 'Long range sensors detect enemy contacts bearing XYZ...do you wish to follow/engage/evade?'

    Anyway just a few ideas for sector space to make it feel more like open space. There are some positives to it too. Canon fanatics wouldn't have their 'view' spoiled as much by non canonships flying around in sector space or see my/others silly ship names as much.

    Despite what some people would think is wrong with this, I like it !! this makes sense!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    I am with you on this. One simple way to do this would be to tone down the sensor range on your ship. In sector space I see everyone in it with me, if the sensor range was small, real small, then you would feel like you were alone in space. Additionally, this modification would lend its self to an open pvp zone where we could enter a sector and not have it known to the mob that is planning on ganking you.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    I always thought it should feel like the shows. You would fly at impulse through large solar systems. You would warp through sector space like the cut scene on the show for a loading screen. The stars would be passing your ship. Then when you come out of warp in the system. You would see the other ships in the system.

    The planets and stars would be much larger. It would take a few minutes to fly trough a system. Then when you got into range of the planet you would get the option to enter the instance for the quest. Which would work the way they do now.

    To me flying through sector space doesn't feel like flying at warp at all. It just looks like I am moving at full impulse.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    I don't think the actual size of the sector blocks have to change. You can create the illusion of vastness by simply make sector space empty from the view of the player. I think that would actually improve the player's graphic performance. Formation flights would be 'loaded' prior to entering sector flights, thus the system wouldn't be drawing new ships. ESD, DS9, whatever star systems would still have lots of people and would feel like a multiplayer game. It would be like in FSX...there are a lot of people at JFK, but once you leave the area it becomes much empty until you reach your destination. It might also improve the player populations for lonely places such as Risa or Andora for folks who choose to meet there.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    mozoha wrote: »
    I am with you on this. One simple way to do this would be to tone down the sensor range on your ship. In sector space I see everyone in it with me, if the sensor range was small, real small, then you would feel like you were alone in space. Additionally, this modification would lend its self to an open pvp zone where we could enter a sector and not have it known to the mob that is planning on ganking you.

    Actually, you don't. You see only those within a certain draw distance. You can try this with a freind. Both ungrouped have each of you fly to opposite ends of sector space. You will see your friend disappear at some point.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    I like this idea. I think though that the ship names should disappear when you shut off the atrometrics. Only naming ships with in maybe only a few light years.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Englebert wrote:
    I always thought it should feel like the shows. You would fly at impulse through large solar systems. You would warp through sector space like the cut scene on the show for a loading screen. The stars would be passing your ship. Then when you come out of warp in the system. You would see the other ships in the system.

    The planets and stars would be much larger. It would take a few minutes to fly trough a system. Then when you got into range of the planet you would get the option to enter the instance for the quest. Which would work the way they do now.

    To me flying through sector space doesn't feel like flying at warp at all. It just looks like I am moving at full impulse.

    There is a game like that. It's called X3: Terrain Conflict and it's awesome. That is the one thing that bothers me with STO. No sense of scale on the ship's on in the Universe at large(No pun intended). I was hoping for something akin to X3 or even Eve online. At least as far as size of the universe goes. STO is kinda arcadyish in this aspect. It kinda breaks the immersion factor for me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    There is a game like that. It's called X3: Terrain Conflict and it's awesome. That is the one thing that bothers me with STO. No sense of scale on the ship's on in the Universe at large(No pun intended). I was hoping for something akin to X3 or even Eve online. At least as far as size of the universe goes. STO is kinda arcadyish in this aspect. It kinda breaks the immersion factor for me.

    I have never liked the scale very much. I think it would be much better to fly through large solar systems with Earth size planets like outside ESD. Than the current sector space where my escort is as large as a solar system.

    They don't have to be true to scale at all. Just much larger than my ship.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    I really wish the devs at Cryptic and the devs at CCP had a drunken corporate meeting and decided to share tech with each other: STO gets EVE"s exploration and universe size while EVE gets STO's superior space combat and customization options.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    I really wish the devs at Cryptic and the devs at CCP had a drunken corporate meeting and decided to share tech with each other: STO gets EVE"s exploration and universe size while EVE gets STO's superior space combat and customization options.

    You mean kind of like if STO and Eve had a Baby?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    You mean kind of like if STO and Eve had a Baby?
    Not really.

    I wouldn't be asking for a third product: just that both of their respective products fix underlying design choices that I take issue with. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Not really.

    I wouldn't be asking for a third product: just that both of their respective products fix underlying design choices that I take issue with. :)

    I have to agree, when I first played EVE I was blown away the sense of scale. I would go exploring the outer regions of space. It felt so immense... even after I got ganked... << thats the bad part of EVE not to mention the ammount of time it takes to do anything, and the boring PvE
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Are there any flight sim fans here who have played FS9 or FSX? Ever played multiplayer FS? The sky is vast...the planet earth and it's sky is to scale as are the distances. In multiplayer the only time you ever see other airplanes are at the airport, flying in formation, air racing/competitions...etc. and if you do see them in the sky they are usually tiny dots until you are really close. It really gives you the impression that the sky is vast, as it really is in life.

    One of my biggest gripes with this game is that 'space' seems like a few crowded city blocks. I don't feel like i am in a tiny ship travelling trough the massive universe. I know people aren't going to sit in front of the computer travelling for weeks to get to their destination...they don't have to. The travel time isnt really the problem, it is the sense of scale that is. Travel times could stay the same but what about making sector space empty of other ships from the player's point of view. Nothing but stars/systems and stellar phenomena.

    The social aspect wouldn't be changed too much. Instead of open space, how about solar systems, starbases, specific locations...etc would be the social meeting places for your friends and fleetmates. Perhaps a grid system could be developed too for meeeting in open space, which would be come open space block instances. You tell your fleetmates to meet at XYZ coordinates.

    For you fleeters you also could travel in formation as well through sector space. There could be an option when you leave system space to travel with other players or alone. Maybe You could also have the option of joining or leaving a formation while in cruise.

    For deep space combat it could be a little more like submarine combat. Your BO could report somthing like 'Long range sensors detect enemy contacts bearing XYZ...do you wish to follow/engage/evade?'

    Anyway just a few ideas for sector space to make it feel more like open space. There are some positives to it too. Canon fanatics wouldn't have their 'view' spoiled as much by non canonships flying around in sector space or see my/others silly ship names as much.
    I absolutley agree.

    I think people are missing how big space real is, while in space (sector space) you shouldn't see anyone!
    Most people have a too narrow perspective because they have certain expectations when thinking about MMOs, STO should widen our perspective in this case.

    Space should be vast, i mean real vast, vaster than most of us can imagine, but in this game space feels like a closet. :)

    Live long and prosper.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Englebert wrote:
    I always thought it should feel like the shows. You would fly at impulse through large solar systems. You would warp through sector space like the cut scene on the show for a loading screen. The stars would be passing your ship. Then when you come out of warp in the system. You would see the other ships in the system.

    The planets and stars would be much larger. It would take a few minutes to fly trough a system. Then when you got into range of the planet you would get the option to enter the instance for the quest. Which would work the way they do now.

    To me flying through sector space doesn't feel like flying at warp at all. It just looks like I am moving at full impulse.

    The basic principle is sound in my opinion, sounds a little like Mass Effect 2's loading screen. But it would feel more like trek, and being able to take your ship into "deep Space" would be awsome. I just have one question, what happened to starfleet being an exploration organization? I for one would occasionaly like to chart a stellar nursery or gather sensor reading from a supernova. Thoughts?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    I feel this. Space never felt so small.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    I really wish the devs at Cryptic and the devs at CCP had a drunken corporate meeting and decided to share tech with each other: STO gets EVE"s exploration and universe size while EVE gets STO's superior space combat and customization options.

    I would supply the drinks if needed. I like the scale of EvE but enjoy the mechanics of STO more.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    It's no so much space feels small, it's that your ship feels too big.
    Reverse psychology!
    However, Cryptic could simply combine the 4 1x3 Sector Space blocks into 2 2x3 sector blocks and see an improvement.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    I dont know if i would have the patience flying to gamma from sol if it took any longer. Much less anywhere else.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    I could handle the 45-minute travel times in Pirates of the Burning Sea for the most part, because it gives the impression that I'm actually crossing the Caribbean. In STO space, everyone can hear you scream--because they're all clustered right around you.

    Nice proposal, OP.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    You mean kind of like if STO and Eve had a Baby?

    I can't believe this hasnt already been said, but if they did have a baby, the horrible lovechild should be named STEVE
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    I could handle the 45-minute travel times in Pirates of the Burning Sea for the most part, because it gives the impression that I'm actually crossing the Caribbean. In STO space, everyone can hear you scream--because they're all clustered right around you.

    Nice proposal, OP.

    Here I was about to give that game a try too. Thanks for the heads up. 45 minutes to get somewhere to then DO something.

    People already complain about stf's taking more than 1hr. Can you imagine it taking an hour JUST to get there. not including time from transwarp to stf starting planet. xD

    But yes i suppose it would be great to stare at empty space for 45 minutes, doing nothing. Even if there were somethign to do, say play poker or some other minigame.

    It would feel akin to the watching tv in that latest gta.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Or they could have just made SS an astrometrics view where you zip around it at high speed until you find your target planet, click on it, and then cut to interior travel.

    Not very social but I think they miscalculated where and in what ways were best to push the MMO social mechanics.

    Imagine if, for example, travel was done from a ship interior but you got a speed boost by having friends aboard while in transit, with some sort of technobabble about multi-ship warp bubble enhancements that allow ships in formations to fly faster than solo ships at long range warp.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Are there any flight sim fans here who have played FS9 or FSX? Ever played multiplayer FS? The sky is vast...the planet earth and it's sky is to scale as are the distances. In multiplayer the only time you ever see other airplanes are at the airport, flying in formation, air racing/competitions...etc. and if you do see them in the sky they are usually tiny dots until you are really close. It really gives you the impression that the sky is vast, as it really is in life.

    One of my biggest gripes with this game is that 'space' seems like a few crowded city blocks. I don't feel like i am in a tiny ship travelling trough the massive universe. I know people aren't going to sit in front of the computer travelling for weeks to get to their destination...they don't have to. The travel time isnt really the problem, it is the sense of scale that is. Travel times could stay the same but what about making sector space empty of other ships from the player's point of view. Nothing but stars/systems and stellar phenomena.

    The social aspect wouldn't be changed too much. Instead of open space, how about solar systems, starbases, specific locations...etc would be the social meeting places for your friends and fleetmates. Perhaps a grid system could be developed too for meeeting in open space, which would be come open space block instances. You tell your fleetmates to meet at XYZ coordinates.

    For you fleeters you also could travel in formation as well through sector space. There could be an option when you leave system space to travel with other players or alone. Maybe You could also have the option of joining or leaving a formation while in cruise.

    For deep space combat it could be a little more like submarine combat. Your BO could report somthing like 'Long range sensors detect enemy contacts bearing XYZ...do you wish to follow/engage/evade?'

    Anyway just a few ideas for sector space to make it feel more like open space. There are some positives to it too. Canon fanatics wouldn't have their 'view' spoiled as much by non canonships flying around in sector space or see my/others silly ship names as much.
    I had a chance to mess around in the HUD options. If you turn off astrometrics and turn off the recticles and names on everything it really opens things up. I personally kept names of near planets the recticles on for enemies and friends and the rest comes up when I drag the mouse over. Hope this helps.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    bigduckie wrote:
    Here I was about to give that game a try too. Thanks for the heads up. 45 minutes to get somewhere to then DO something.

    People already complain about stf's taking more than 1hr. Can you imagine it taking an hour JUST to get there. not including time from transwarp to stf starting planet. xD

    But yes i suppose it would be great to stare at empty space for 45 minutes, doing nothing. Even if there were somethign to do, say play poker or some other minigame.

    It would feel akin to the watching tv in that latest gta.

    Nah, it's not as bad as that. You have a lot going on from place to place--including open world PvP zones which require some strategy to get around. There's also plenty of ships to take along the way.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Nah, it's not as bad as that. You have a lot going on from place to place--including open world PvP zones which require some strategy to get around. There's also plenty of ships to take along the way.

    star trek online has none of those things
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Yreodred wrote:

    I absolutley agree.

    I think people are missing how big space real is, while in space (sector space) you shouldn't see anyone!
    Most people have a too narrow perspective because they have certain expectations when thinking about MMOs, STO should widen our perspective in this case.

    Space should be vast, i mean real vast, vaster than most of us can imagine, but in this game space feels like a closet. :)

    Live long and prosper.

    What he said^.

    One of the original parts of this game that interested me the most was the promised"vastness" factor. We were suppose to be able to travel space and explore and never see anyone.

    That went out the window with the Genesis engine i guess, wish they would at least try and get us some sense of real space.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    TrentTyler wrote: »
    What he said^.

    One of the original parts of this game that interested me the most was the promised"vastness" factor. We were suppose to be able to travel space and explore and never see anyone.

    That went out the window with the Genesis engine i guess, wish they would at least try and get us some sense of real space.

    They have the Genesis engine. It's what the exploration missions are made with.

    I think people weren't viewing the statements enough as hype.

    The only promised thing we didn't get with exploration was the ability to save a system's coordinates and go back there. Any other way it falls short is mostly a case of hype falling short of expectations... But everything else promised about exploration is there.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    or even Eve online. .


    That universe felt huge! :eek:
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