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What happened to the Andorian ship?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
I haven't seen a dev comment on it in quite some time, I was kinda looking forward to leveling an Andorian character in anticipation of it, but it would help if I knew it was still coming..

If anyone else has noticed a recent update on it that I've missed, please feel free to send me a link..
Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I'd like to know why Cryptic is adding a 21st century ship in the first place.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I'd like to know why Cryptic is adding a 21st century ship in the first place.

    This one?

    http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/spaceshipone-2.jpg
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    StarShipOne for T5 Escort!! Hahaha..

    But no... seriously, I'm not looking for a ship age debate and I don;t want this thread to turn into that... I just want to know if there has been a dev post about it lately, I haven;t seen one, but I don't check the dev tracker daily like I used to lol I just want to know if it's still coming and get a general timeframe of when..
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    edit: double post due to lag
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I see you encoutered the lag I just had as well.
    Anyway my reply was primarily as a joke due to Forgotten-Nemesis' typo, I'm pretty sure he wanted to write 22nd century.:p
    Nothing heard since the Engineering report as far as I know.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    mister_dee wrote:
    I see you encoutered the lag I just had as well.
    Anyway my reply was primarily as a joke due to Forgotten-Nemesis' typo, I'm pretty sure he wanted to write 22nd century.:p
    Nothing heard since the Engineering report as far as I know.

    Woops, you're right - big typo there... although I'd bet good money that someone is going to demand that be added too.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    1: Andorian ship is outdated, no need for it (I know its allready in the works, but I dont particulary approve of that.

    2: Content >>>>>>>>>>>> New ships
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Well if the Vulcans really do maintain a small fleet of ships that is as advanced and capable as any equivalent starfleet ship, i doubt the Andorians would sit idly by and watch their old rival out do them. Guess im an apologist for these ships now :rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    1: Andorian ship is outdated, no need for it (I know its allready in the works, but I dont particulary approve of that.

    2: Content >>>>>>>>>>>> New ships

    The planned Andorian, D'Kyr, and planned Constitution ships are not outdated. They are entirely modern ships that only look like the originals. Also, new ships is new content. They are new things to have or use in the game; that is content.
    Well if the Vulcans really do maintain a small fleet of ships that is as advanced and capable as any equivalent starfleet ship, i doubt the Andorians would sit idly by and watch their old rival out do them. Guess im an apologist for these ships now :rolleyes:

    This is true of most Federation members as they can leave the Federation any time they wish.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Ezhno wrote: »
    The planned Andorian, D'Kyr, and planned Constitution ships are not outdated. They are entirely modern ships that only look like the originals. Also, new ships is new content. They are new things to have or use in the game; that is content.

    Atleast the D'kyr and Andorian looks modern (probably because they came from a time where special effects had progressed past the Flash Gordon style), but a TOS Constitution is SO outta place.

    New ships isnt content, its just a different ship to repeat the same missions over and over and over and over with.. Allready at the 3rd of my toons, I didnt bother doing storymissions anymore, and my last toon was ground through the ranks doing nothing but PvP/Deferi/Devidian missions (the two that can be completed in 5-10 minutes and give good XP (turn the wheel and the doctor/interrogator ones).

    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines ~GM Tiyshen
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Lets not take it down this road. We have only ever seen one Andorian ship, it looks cool and quite a few people want it. Why ignore something pretty this franchise gave us. Out of love.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Guys, please re-read my posts... this is NOT a thread to debate the age of ships or if certain racial ships should be added... ALL I'M ASKING is if anyone has recently seen any dev posts regarding the Andorian ship..

    I just want to make sure its still coming before I start my Andorian character..
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I want it too. More ships the better. =]

    Old. New. Doesn't matter to me or my money. Keep em coming cryptic. =]
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Guys, please re-read my posts... this is NOT a thread to debate the age of ships or if certain racial ships should be added... ALL I'M ASKING is if anyone has recently seen any dev posts regarding the Andorian ship..

    I just want to make sure its still coming before I start my Andorian character..


    No dev posts. The general premise is, they are working on it. I have been waiting for the Gorn revamp since November so it will probably be a few 'Cryptic weeks' after that.

    Or if we were to go 'by the book', hours could seem like days.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I have less than zero interest in an Andorian Escort. I don't care about Andorians and the ship that they chose looks like Zefram Chochrane's ship from Star Trek First Contact. I don't care at all about the supposed age of the Andorian ship. I am more concerned about it's ugliness.

    Escorts need something approaching the same level of support and interest that Cruisers and Science ships have seen. We took a hit to our Defense stats recently, while Science Ships got a boost to damage. Cruisers are virtually always a more viable option than an Escort. Both other ship types have also gotten interesting, attractive, and canon ships added to VA. Escorts are still limited to the first two and the Defiant (with the bring your child to work day 3rd Ensign slot).

    I want to see a compelling ship for a VA Escort. Give us something that presents a different take on what it is to be an Escort. I would love to see a larger ship, like the Jupiter Class, that could be fitted with turrets and used to clear support craft, mines, plasma torpedoes, etc. It would be something that shows ships can be more compelling than a skin and a BO layout.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Dunnlang wrote:
    I have less than zero interest in an Andorian Escort. I don't care about Andorians and the ship that they chose looks like Zefram Chochrane's ship from Star Trek First Contact. I don't care at all about the supposed age of the Andorian ship. I am more concerned about it's ugliness.

    Escorts need something approaching the same level of support and interest that Cruisers and Science ships have seen. We took a hit to our Defense stats recently, while Science Ships got a boost to damage. Cruisers are virtually always a more viable option than an Escort. Both other ship types have also gotten interesting, attractive, and canon ships added to VA. Escorts are still limited to the first two and the Defiant (with the bring your child to work day 3rd Ensign slot).

    I want to see a compelling ship for a VA Escort. Give us something that presents a different take on what it is to be an Escort. I would love to see a larger ship, like the Jupiter Class, that could be fitted with turrets and used to clear support craft, mines, plasma torpedoes, etc. It would be something that shows ships can be more compelling than a skin and a BO layout.

    at least we got the Multi vector escort, which if i remember, does add a T5 Prometheus class vessel to the mix.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Bullcrap.. They are ancient pieces of junk.. If you give a monkey clothes and places it in front of a computer, it still wont be able to write a news article.

    Atleast the D'kyr and Andorian looks modern (probably because they came from a time where special effects had progressed past the Flash Gordon style), but a TOS Constitution is SO outta place.

    New ships isnt content, its just a different ship to repeat the same missions over and over and over and over with.. Allready at the 3rd of my toons, I didnt bother doing storymissions anymore, and my last toon was ground through the ranks doing nothing but PvP/Deferi/Devidian missions (the two that can be completed in 5-10 minutes and give good XP (turn the wheel and the doctor/interrogator ones).

    Your reasoning is read, understood and refused.

    You can refuse facts all you like but that doesn't make them any less true; a new ship is in fact new content. It will be within the games contents as an interactable and usable new ship. And just like any new species option it is (playable) content. To say nothing of the fact that those who work on the ships are not those who work on other areas of the game. Nothing is lost by adding new ships to the game.

    And again, no, these ships are all modern. Whether they are from Enterprise, Next Generation, side material, or just plain original designs. Every single ship in the game is a completely modern vessel. If you have a problem with this then I suggest you raise your issues by contacting Cryptic directly as they are the ones who have made the game.

    There is no sane reason to not add an the Andorian ship as thus. I support it being added. +1

    I just want to make sure its still coming before I start my Andorian character..
    Until a Cryptic representative says otherwise, it's on the 'to-do' list somewhere. They've never given a guess as to when it will be added, but as of now it is still intended to be.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I think that it would be interesting to see more ships from the various species added to the game. As to the people that are complaining about what era the ships belong to, consider that the Federation may favor changes in exterior design to reflect the internal changes where as the individual species within the federation may find a default hull-type and run with it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Variation or the means for a single race, even a member of the federation, to distinguish themselves is always a good thing. Enterprise introduced some fine ships and we've never seen them further in the series because there never came a new series. These ships are part of canon and there's no way of knowing whether they would still be in use in 2409.

    I don't see this being any different then the klingons having gorn and nausicaan ships.

    that said, sorry OP I know you didn't want to raise the issue but since it was already there I like to contribute,
    I believe this ship was promised to us in february/march and while there was hardly any dev talk about the oberth class, it's now there and the andorian ship isn't. I think they might release it with some updates to Andor as well. We're still waiting on Ushaan tournaments on the planet's surface, STO might be having an 'andorian week' coming up, like this could be considered a TOS week
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Quiskota wrote:
    this could be considered a TOS week

    It is on my end. ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Bullcrap.. They are ancient pieces of junk.. If you give a monkey clothes and places it in front of a computer, it still wont be able to write a news article.


    Maybe, but I'm sure it could get a job with Newsweek or Time.

    ;):D:eek:



    /derail
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Ezhno wrote: »
    You can refuse facts all you like but that doesn't make them any less true; a new ship is in fact new content. It will be within the games contents as an interactable and usable new ship. And just like any new species option it is (playable) content. To say nothing of the fact that those who work on the ships are not those who work on other areas of the game. Nothing is lost by adding new ships to the game.

    And again, no, these ships are all modern. Whether they are from Enterprise, Next Generation, side material, or just plain original designs. Every single ship in the game is a completely modern vessel. If you have a problem with this then I suggest you raise your issues by contacting Cryptic directly as they are the ones who have made the game.

    I agree that new ships are new content and need to be added to the game more frequently, not the other way around.

    But yea. You can say they are modern all you want. You can call them replicas. But what they are are ships that are hundreds of years old and need to be used as target practice. There is no planned Connie btw. And there won't be. Those with TOS hard ons already have a T1 Connie that they can install 25th century tech on. You can even fit it with Borg, Undine and Reman technology. I don't see why it has to have t5 stats... Oh right. Because it shouldn't, that would be ridiculous.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Ezhno wrote: »
    And again, no, these ships are all modern. Whether they are from Enterprise, Next Generation, side material, or just plain original designs. Every single ship in the game is a completely modern vessel. If you have a problem with this then I suggest you raise your issues by contacting Cryptic directly as they are the ones who have made the game.

    The 'modern ship' argument is about the worst possible. Being modern vessels, logically they're already kitted out with modern equipment.

    By game lore, the Excalibur is a brand-new starship design.

    By extrapolation from game lore (how and why hull customization is an option), brand-new TMP Connies are Excaliburs with a variant hull design.

    So, these brand new, state of the art ships are light-duty cruisers only capable of mounting what they mount with current tech.

    Where the hell is the tech to refit an Excalibur to T5 supposed to come from? Time travel from 2509?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Ezhno wrote: »
    The planned Andorian, D'Kyr, and planned Constitution ships are not outdated. They are entirely modern ships that only look like the originals. Also, new ships is new content. They are new things to have or use in the game; that is content.
    .

    New ships are new items, unless your gonna say a new uniform is content also. We all know when people talk about content in a MMO they are talking about PLAYABLE content as in new missions, new maps, new classes, new professions.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    I agree that new ships are new content and need to be added to the game more frequently, not the other way around.

    But yea. You can say they are modern all you want. You can call them replicas. But what they are are ships that are hundreds of years old and need to be used as target practice. There is no planned Connie btw. And there won't be. Those with TOS hard ons already have a T1 Connie that they can install 25th century tech on. You can even fit it with Borg, Undine and Reman technology. I don't see why it has to have t5 stats... Oh right. Because it shouldn't, that would be ridiculous.

    They are not ancient ships, if you read the game-canon posts referring to ships or any number of the Cryptic posts on such they will state that they are modern ships (like the NX profile in the C-Store). There is, also, a planned Tier 5 Constitution as per Engineering Reports.
    The 'modern ship' argument is about the worst possible. Being modern vessels, logically they're already kitted out with modern equipment.

    By game lore, the Excalibur is a brand-new starship design.

    By extrapolation from game lore (how and why hull customization is an option), brand-new TMP Connies are Excaliburs with a variant hull design.

    So, these brand new, state of the art ships are light-duty cruisers only capable of mounting what they mount with current tech.

    Where the hell is the tech to refit an Excalibur to T5 supposed to come from? Time travel from 2509?

    You're mixing out of continuity game mechanics with in continuity game-canon. The Excelsior can exist at multiple tiers because there's almost no difference between the ships. Look at the Nebula, it also exists at two tiers and as far as game-canon is concerned they are the same ships. Tiers are a game mechanic, they are not an indication of continuity. Pick any ship classes in the game and compare it to the original layout of its weapons and crew; I don't think there is a single one in the game that matches up too well. The Sovereign alone should have 12-16 phaser arrays and 10 torpedo launchers; and that's the original version, not the modern version we have in the game. It's just a game mechanic to provide balance, this is also why the Klingons have similar limitations on completely unrelated ships.

    TrentTyler wrote: »
    New ships are new items, unless your gonna say a new uniform is content also. We all know when people talk about content in a MMO they are talking about PLAYABLE content as in new missions, new maps, new classes, new professions.
    A new item is, in fact, new content. But no, ships are not items, they are our space-side characters. They literally are our characters in space. We don't play as a captain within a ship, we play as the ship, but we have the illusion built that everyone is running around on a non-existent bridge doing their jobs regardless. Anything that a player has access to, can use in play, let alone customize, is content. Personally, I'd like to see more tribbles :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Ezhno wrote: »
    You're mixing out of continuity game mechanics with in continuity game-canon. The Excelsior can exist at multiple tiers because there's almost no difference between the ships. Look at the Nebula, it also exists at two tiers and as far as game-canon is concerned they are the same ships. Tiers are a game mechanic, they are not an indication of continuity. Pick any ship classes in the game and compare it to the original layout of its weapons and crew; I don't think there is a single one in the game that matches up too well. The Sovereign alone should have 12-16 phaser arrays and 10 torpedo launchers; and that's the original version, not the modern version we have in the game. It's just a game mechanic to provide balance, this is also why the Klingons have similar limitations on completely unrelated ships.

    You've perhaps heard of something called 'abstraction'?
    The exact number of doodads is unimportant; multiple emplacements are combined into one game-mechanical weapon system, and relative combat effectiveness is the main consideration. Not every phaser array or torpedo launcher has equal power, fire rate, or (in the case of phasers especially) coverage. A loadout system that worked out to SFC-level detail might have been nice, but would have worked out to about the same effect in the end with just more buttons to push.

    Tiers are also abstractions, but just like weight classes are abstractions in fighting sports, they still have some tie to real considerations.

    Also, the two-tier-jumping Nebula and Excelsior are different, lorewise - there's every indication that the T3 versions are ships made to older (and still much younger than a TMP constitution) design specifications, and the T5 actually is the modern upgrade. That said, I'm not entirely convinced that they are placed reasonably either, but it's still a smaller leap in performance than that being demanded for a Tier 5 Constitution. Especially the spindly TOS version as opposed to the more rugged TMP version.

    What would be preferable, but not really viable now, is to use the sort of abstractions Eve uses instead, where aside from a few trash ships in each weight class, they all stay relevant and useful for different things. The two problems with that are that STO doesn't really have 'different things' that don't involve combat power, and that the STO team isn't willing to sort out NPC ships into that level of detail for encounters either.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011

    You've perhaps heard of something called 'abstraction'?
    The exact number of doodads is unimportant; multiple emplacements are combined into one game-mechanical weapon system, and relative combat effectiveness is the main consideration. Not every phaser array or torpedo launcher has equal power, fire rate, or (in the case of phasers especially) coverage. A loadout system that worked out to SFC-level detail might have been nice, but would have worked out to about the same effect in the end with just more buttons to push.

    Tiers are also abstractions, but just like weight classes are abstractions in fighting sports, they still have some tie to real considerations.

    Also, the two-tier-jumping Nebula and Excelsior are different, lorewise - there's every indication that the T3 versions are ships made to older (and still much younger than a TMP constitution) design specifications, and the T5 actually is the modern upgrade. That said, I'm not entirely convinced that they are placed reasonably either, but it's still a smaller leap in performance than that being demanded for a Tier 5 Constitution. Especially the spindly TOS version as opposed to the more rugged TMP version.

    What would be preferable, but not really viable now, is to use the sort of abstractions Eve uses instead, where aside from a few trash ships in each weight class, they all stay relevant and useful for different things. The two problems with that are that STO doesn't really have 'different things' that don't involve combat power, and that the STO team isn't willing to sort out NPC ships into that level of detail for encounters either.

    The exact number is very important. According to the movies the Sovereign should have that many phaser banks. It doesn't have this same number in game and there is absolutely nothing in game-canon that suggests any were dropped or 'combined' The number of phaser arrays should still be the same or similar; it isn't for the sake of game balance.

    We also do not know for a fact that one array is not as powerful as another or that one torpedo launcher takes longer to reload. There is nothing in hard canon stating as much. It is stated that a Quantum Torpedo is stronger than a Photon Torpedo; but nothing in relation to reload times. I've seen every show at least twice, so unless they said something that I forgot (not entirely impossible) then we simply do not know. Games are not canon, novels are not canon (if they're lucky they're considered soft canon which is a precarious state at best), and technical manuals are notoriously not canon.

    What it comes down to is that everything in relation to ships in game is some form of game mechanic or another. All of it is meant for the sake of balance (not story), which I feel they've done a fair job of up to now. These same game mechanics also allow them to put six fore and aft weapon slots that could mount any weapon onto a shuttle which could also have 5,000 crew and six commander bridge officer stations. They don't do this because that'd just be silly, but the mechanics would allow for such. In the end, that's all it is.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Ezhno wrote: »
    The exact number is very important. According to the movies the Sovereign should have that many phaser banks. It doesn't have this same number in game and there is absolutely nothing in game-canon that suggests any were dropped or 'combined' The number of phaser arrays should still be the same or similar; it isn't for the sake of game balance.

    ... I don't follow. You're arguing that game mechanics conflict with lore, while at the same time arguing that game mechanics don't relate to lore. Which is it?

    Indeed, nothing in game lore says that the default configuration of the Sovereign doesn't have over a dozen phaser arrays and ten torpedo launchers. What that means, from a combat effectiveness standpoint, is ill-defined by canon. The starship weapon items in-game abstract that into effective firepower rather than arbitrary and meaningless numbers.
    Ezhno wrote: »
    What it comes down to is that everything in relation to ships in game is some form of game mechanic or another. All of it is meant for the sake of balance (not story), which I feel they've done a fair job of up to now. These same game mechanics also allow them to put six fore and aft weapon slots that could mount any weapon onto a shuttle which could also have 5,000 crew and six commander bridge officer stations. They don't do this because that'd just be silly, but the mechanics would allow for such. In the end, that's all it is.

    Which is the same thing that applies to upgrading a TOS Connie to stand toe-to-toe with a Sovereign...

    I'm also of the school of RPG-mechanic design that game mechanics should reflect the story and world, and STO's done a fair to good job of coming up with abstractions that do.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    ... I don't follow. You're arguing that game mechanics conflict with lore, while at the same time arguing that game mechanics don't relate to lore. Which is it?

    Indeed, nothing in game lore says that the default configuration of the Sovereign doesn't have over a dozen phaser arrays and ten torpedo launchers. What that means, from a combat effectiveness standpoint, is ill-defined by canon. The starship weapon items in-game abstract that into effective firepower rather than arbitrary and meaningless numbers.



    Which is the same thing that applies to upgrading a TOS Connie to stand toe-to-toe with a Sovereign...

    I'm also of the school of RPG-mechanic design that game mechanics should reflect the story and world, and STO's done a fair to good job of coming up with abstractions that do.
    I'm saying that because there is no correlation between hard canon and game mechanics that the mechanics can do almost anything and it doesn't affect the story. The same is true in reverse, the story does not affect the mechanics, they are two separate bodies. If the two were even remotely related then there would not be such massive conflicting. The weapons we have in game have absolutely no relation to canon aside from names. I don't recall any federation ships using antiproton weapons or even disruptors (the closest being the Aeon).

    The Sovereign in the game is not comparable with the Sovereign outside of the game other than by appearance. It is scaled and balanced to fit within a general tier (or grouping) of ships for the sake of a game mechanic. This includes the Excelsior, Nebula, Galaxy, and D'Kyr (as well as originals). Are all these ships identical in strength or power to each and every single other one outside of the game? Of course not, but within the game mechanics they are.

    There is nothing preventing the Tier 5 Constitution (which like other ships is in waiting at the moment). You say that the mechanics should reflect the continuity, that's a fair opinion but Star Trek Online doesn't do that. We have an Excelsior and a D'Kyr both at Tier 5. We also have the All Good Things Galaxy class which technically wouldn't have existed. We have Constitutions, NX, and Class F shuttle types in service. I sincerely doubt that in hard canon the Federation would go 'hey remember this ship class? I miss it, let's make a new one that looks exactly like it!' because that too is pretty silly. But here we have such circumstances and more to come all for the sake of the game. The same also applies entirely to uniforms which is more of a rainbow than ships will ever be because costumes are easier to make.

    So if you say you want things to follow the continuity that's fine, but then you say that Cryptic has done a good job of doing this when there are so many blatant violations to this (one of the more prominent being the D'Kyr, Excelsior, and planned Andorian ships which are just as powerful game-mechanic wise as the Sovereign and yet two are older in class than a Constitution)... that's something I don't understand.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Ezhno wrote: »
    So if you say you want things to follow the continuity that's fine, but then you say that Cryptic has done a good job of doing this when there are so many blatant violations to this (one of the more prominent being the D'Kyr, Excelsior, and planned Andorian ships which are just as powerful game-mechanic wise as the Sovereign and yet two are older in class than a Constitution)... that's something I don't understand.

    True. What I should have said was that at launch that was the case, and it's declined from there - mostly in relation to the C-store, which is unsurprising but still irritating.

    The Excelsior is also easier to justify than most, because it was shown to be active and upgraded to parity with Defiant-class vessels back in DS9. By contrast, STIII and STVI give the strong impression that Starfleet dumped the Constitution like a bad date in favor of the Excelsior just as fast as it could.
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