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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    So, you're confirming that you are in fact requesting that in addition to what they're already doing, you want them to go back and spend resources developing a solo (only) mission with the same vague general plot of each of the STF's, with all the puzzles and most of the mobs removed, and with different rewards?

    Once again, they are ALREADY "going back". They are ALREADY spending time and resources to rework the STFs for the difficulty slider. I'm simply asking that WHILE theyre doing all this, they make the adjustment from a "normal" difficulty setting(less than 5 man group) to a solo version as well.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Nagus, its become a recurring theme when you and I have discussions on here that rather than try to understand the point I'm trying to make, you try to win the argument. I'm not out to 'win the internet', so feel free to collect all the 'points' from this thread. I'm here trying to have a discussion about the game. If you'd like to try to understand where I'm coming from, or discuss the issue, great. If you're just going to keep reposting the same thing (in violation of forum rules) to try to 'win' something, then this will be my last response to you here.

    The reason I keep linking you back to the same post is because you just dont understand what is being requested or discussed. You seem to think people are asking that the group version be removed, and they are not. There is no other way I can tell you that, so rather than repeat myself I just link you back to the original post where I told you that in hopes that you will eventually get it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Once again, they are ALREADY "going back". They are ALREADY speading time and resources to rework the STFs for the difficulty slider. I'm simply asking that WHILE theyre doing all this, they make the adjustment from a "normal" difficulty setting(less than 5 man group) to a solo version as well.

    Well, if they make the "easy" setting of the difficulty slider easy enough then I supposed an individual could theoretically attempt to complete the STF on their own with just their BO's. Hmmm....sounds like a SOLO version of the STF would then be an OPTION available to everyone! ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Pyryck wrote:
    Well, if they make the "easy" setting of the difficulty slider easy enough then I supposed an individual could theoretically attempt to complete the STF on their own with just their BO's. Hmmm....sounds like a SOLO version of the STF would then be an OPTION available to everyone! ;)

    Other than the puzzles that require multiple real people to complete.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Trueheart wrote:
    Should they make solo versions of the STFs? Sure, make them into a featured series and let people who don't want to team up enjoy the story. Should they continue making missions where the ONLY thing that distinguishes them from other missions is the fact you are forced team up? No, leave it optional. Let those who enjoy teaming up do so and those who do not run it with their BOs.

    Right, but that's not the only thing that distinguishes them. People here are talking as if the '5-man' requirement for the STFs is some kind of artificial 'gating', or just a question of the number of mobs. The reality is that the STFs are structured around puzzles that require a group of people to work as a team to solve/overcome them.

    Take the generator puzzle. There are four generators, each of which has to cycle on in order to drop a forcefield. While they cycle, they have to be protected from spawning borg drones. This puzzle is designed so that the group has to work as a team to activate and protect the generators.

    In a single player mission, this turns into what? A hallway that you run down, kill some borg, and activate four generators?

    That portion of the mission has to be completely retooled and changed in order to make a 'solo version'. Its not just a question of wittling down the number of mobs. You're turning it from one thing, a group puzzle, into another thing, a solo task.

    That's the way the STFs are designed now. The plots are very rudimentary. Playing through the plots would take about 5-10 minutes without the puzzles and need for teamwork. In order to make them soloable, you have to turn them into something other than what they are now, either by complete redesign, or complete rewriting of the plot to give it enough depth to work as a Feature Episode.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Other than the puzzles that require multiple real people to complete.

    Hmm...you do make a point. I do remember having to have 3 people all activate consoles at the same time to bring down a generator. That could be rather challenging for a solo player. ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Once again, they are ALREADY "going back". They are ALREADY spending time and resources to rework the STFs for the difficulty slider. I'm simply asking that WHILE theyre doing all this, they make the adjustment from a "normal" difficulty setting(less than 5 man group) to a solo version as well.

    Right, but those are two different processes. What they're doing with the difficulty slider is adjusting the number of mobs, their health, and the damage they do, such that, as Gozer said, on 'Normal' you'll probably be able to do things with fewer than 5 people if you know the STFs well and work well as a team.

    To make them soloable, you have to remove puzzles that require more than 1 person to complete, and replace them with something else. Since the current STFs are constructed around puzzles that require more than 1 person to complete, this would require a whole lot of work, either in developing a whole new set of solo puzzles to take their place, or rewriting the plot to give it a whole lot more depth so it amounts for something substantial for the solo player.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Take the generator puzzle. There are four generators, each of which has to cycle on in order to drop a forcefield. While they cycle, they have to be protected from spawning borg drones. This puzzle is designed so that the group has to work as a team to activate and protect the generators.

    The final ground part of Khitomer is an even better example. The player who remains below to turn off the forcefields is in a completely different room can not see physically see where the others are. That entire encounter and map would need to be rebuilt from scratch to make it work with BOFFs.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Right, but those are two different processes. What they're doing with the difficulty slider is adjusting the number of mobs, their health, and the damage they do, such that, as Gozer said, on 'Normal' you'll probably be able to do things with fewer than 5 people if you know the STFs well and work well as a team.

    To make them soloable, you have to remove puzzles that require more than 1 person to complete, and replace them with something else. Since the current STFs are constructed around puzzles that require more than 1 person to complete, this would require a whole lot of work, either in developing a whole new set of solo puzzles to take their place, or rewriting the plot to give it a whole lot more depth so it amounts for something substantial for the solo player.

    Hey, if thats the reason they give as to why its not doable, I'll buy it. At least that is a "valid" reason aside from simply saying its never going to happen.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The final ground part of Khitomer is an even better example. The player who remains below to turn off the forcefields is in a completely different room can not see physically see where the others are. That entire encounter and map would need to be rebuilt from scratch to make it work with BOFFs.

    Naw, I really don't think it would need to be rebuilt from scratch. Other options could be coded in to it to allow a single/couple of players to interact slightly differently and still achieve the same effect.

    Is there any situation or point in any of the STF's where more than 3 people have to do something all at the very same time?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Pyryck wrote:
    Naw, I really don't think it would need to be rebuilt from scratch. Other options could be coded in to it to allow a single/couple of players to interact slightly differently and still achieve the same effect.

    How are you going to direct your BOFFs from another room completely separate from them? That entire encounter is designed to work with more than 1 human player. To make is soloable means it needs to be rebuilt.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Trueheart wrote:
    Assuming the content of the mission is the same, then no. It's the same mission the only difference is the fact you have to team up to play it. The only thing that has changed is the parameter on HOW you play it, not the actual content within the mission.

    Which brings us to what this is all about... how people play the missions.

    On the one hand, you have people who feel there should be missions that only people who are teamed up can play, and then you have people who want missions where you can choose to run them teamed up or with your BOs.

    As it stands, you can run every mission in the game on a 5 man team. Since it's already been established by Gozer that a STF without the team requirement is a "just" normal mission, then you can make every mission in the game a STF for yourself by forcing yourself to find 4 other people before running it.

    In the end this is about wanting to make sure OTHER people are forced to team up to do missions and it's on that principal I disagree. How someone else chooses to play is completely irrelevant to whether or not I enjoy the game.

    Should they make solo versions of the STFs? Sure, make them into a featured series and let people who don't want to team up enjoy the story. Should they continue making missions where the ONLY thing that distinguishes them from other missions is the fact you are forced team up? No, leave it optional. Let those who enjoy teaming up do so and those who do not run it with their BOs.


    Making STFs soloable is the silliest idea I've ever heard...and the fact that people think it should be done is kind of funny. Are these people new to MMOs in general? I would love to see them argue to Blizzard about making dungeons/raids soloable. QQ, I want to do Lych King, but don't want to find a group - make it soloable Blizz! Lol, you would be curb stomped in a second.

    Face it - STFs (or any group/raid content) serve a specific purpose in an MMO. First, they are supposed to take a long time - that's a fact in any MMO; anything that yields a greater reward, will take longer to do/get. Be thankful at least Cryptic gives the gear as an end reward, rather than a boss drop; I can just imagine the whining if it was like WoW where drop rates can be so low, you'll be redoing a raid for months before you get the item you want. Which in a way is also a weakness, because people do an STF once and they are done with it for the most part - so it's a double edge sword for Cryptic trying to please fans.

    Yes, it takes time to put a group together, and not only a group, but a right group. Yes, most STO players don't seem to get this and think that any warm body will do for STFs - which is probably why they fail these STFs and cry about how hard they are. More needless QQ. Instead, people should actually start learning and realizing the concept of a group and how different types affect it.

    Lastly cannon wise - we are in StarFLEET, not StarSOLO. Yes, a lot of the times, one ship will be able to handle missions on their own, but anything that has been of massive importance/risk, needs support of other Starfleet ships. Whenever something big happened in the TV series, you always saw more than just one lone ship taking on an Armada.

    My 2 cents. Lastly, trying not to be cynical, but probably all this whining is coming from people who can't get their borg set, so they are looking for a handout this way. Learn to play, learn to group, get in a good fleet and do it right, instead of trying to weasel yourself a reward by diluting content that's already pretty small in terms of group/raids. 1# QQ for this is probably stemming from KA, if I know my whinny Feds, lol.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Right, but that's not the only thing that distinguishes them. People here are talking as if the '5-man' requirement for the STFs is some kind of artificial 'gating', or just a question of the number of mobs. The reality is that the STFs are structured around puzzles that require a group of people to work as a team to solve/overcome them.

    I'm afraid I disagree with the that statement. The '5-man requirement' IS just an artificial gating to complete the mission. You do have some contrived puzzles to hide that fact, but looking at the "team" puzzles in each of the STFs they are pretty shallow.

    Infected: 3 people activate a console to lower a shield generator
    Cure: Each player hides behind a rock to shoot worker drones after activating their shield generator
    Khitomer: One guy activates a console in a different room while the rest destroy a shield generator

    The only "team" thing about these are fussing about with shield generators. Now if that's something that you really enjoy I can respect that. However, those shield generators are not the central focus of the mission and could easily be worked around when remastering the episode. A team of players could have the option to disable shield generators as an objective, a player with their BOs would not have that available and be required to complete a different objective. Mobs can scale accordingly.

    Also, don't dismiss the storyline of the STFs. It is actually really good, and Khitomer Accord has some very relevant back story.

    It would take some creative thinking, but it's possible and in my opinion the storyline of the STFs warrant the effort.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    AngelosOne wrote: »
    snipped

    You do know and fully understand, comprehend and otherwise acknowledge that WoW Northrend 5-man instances have been completed by a single individual soloing multiple times? Several old-style 10/20/40 man raids in WoW have been soloed as well? ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    AngelosOne wrote: »
    Making STFs soloable is the silliest idea I've ever heard...and the fact that people think it should be done is kind of funny. Are these people new to MMOs in general? I would love to see them argue to Blizzard about making dungeons/raids soloable. QQ, I want to do Lych King, but don't want to find a group - make it soloable Blizz! Lol, you would be curb stomped in a second.

    The opinions of the people who you disagree with are no more "silly" or "funny" than your own. And QQing about other people QQing is still QQing ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Trueheart wrote:
    The only "team" thing about these are fussing about with shield generators.

    How are you going to solo the Transwarp Gate and all the Borg that come through it in Infected? How will you solo the two Transwarp Gates and all the Borg who come through them in Khitomer Accord?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The opinions of the people who you disagree with are no more "silly" or "funny" than your own. And QQing about other people QQing is still QQing ;)

    Wrong. Yes, people are entitled to their opinions, but that doesn't not make them not silly or wrong.

    God, I'm tired of this new trend that people defend their opinion as though it couldn't be wrong because it's an opinion.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The more i read this thread the more i think that players who don't want Group content to be soloable are afraid to loose their elitist status. :eek:

    If they enjoy to play together with their fellow players, thats ok. But why to they care about if those missions are soloable, if they want to do them with a group anyway?

    Where is the problem when others want to do the same missions, only alone?
    Doing group content alone should be naturally more difficult than with a group but still made to be doable IMHO.

    Thank you for reading.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    AngelosOne wrote: »
    Wrong. Yes, people are entitled to their opinions, but that doesn't not make them not silly or wrong.

    God, I'm tired of this new trend that people defend their opinion as though it couldn't be wrong because it's an opinion.

    You're tired of defending an opinion because it is an opinion? :eek: :rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Yreodred wrote:
    The more i read this thread the more i think that players who don't want Group content to be soloable are afraid to loose their elitist status. :eek:

    If they enjoy to play together with their fellow players, thats ok. But why to they care about if those missions are soloable, if they want to do them with a group anyway?

    Where is the problem when others want to do the same missions, only alone?
    Doing group content alone should be naturally more difficult than with a group but still made to be doable IMHO.

    Thank you for reading.

    Well, not elite status, but effort put into the game. You reap what you sow, if you will. Also, why would I want the game to continue fostering bad players? I want better players around me, not a continuation of the bad players that will continue to be bad players if they only do solo missions and never learn how to work in a team. That pretty much means the game is doomed to an increasingly worse player base that's used to be hand-held for everything. Why? Because the majority of you want solo missions so you can a) not think about strategy or play your class right, because you'll know the mission difficulty will be pretty low and you'll be carried by your away team. No thanks. Point in fact, I think most people don't even know how to solo right......waypoints anyone? Away team tactis? Doubt any of you even heard or thought you could do this in solo missions right?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    AngelosOne wrote: »
    Wrong. Yes, people are entitled to their opinions, but that doesn't not make them not silly or wrong.

    And likewise, the people whose opinions you think are silly and wrong probably think the same thing about yours.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Yreodred wrote:
    The more i read this thread the more i think that players who don't want Group content to be soloable are afraid to loose their elitist status.

    Huh? :rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    AngelosOne wrote: »
    My 2 cents. Lastly, trying not to be cynical, but probably all this whining is coming from people who can't get their borg set, so they are looking for a handout this way. Learn to play, learn to group, get in a good fleet and do it right, instead of trying to weasel yourself a reward by diluting content that's already pretty small in terms of group/raids. 1# QQ for this is probably stemming from KA, if I know my whinny Feds, lol.

    The only whining or crying going on is from the crowd that just can't seem to grasp that individuals playing in a massively multi-player online role playing game would choose to exercise their option to play as an individual while also enjoying the option of experiencing all the content that game developers create! :)

    But, that's just MY opinion... :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    My opinion:

    Have some content that is exclusively:
    • solo or small team (most FEs work better if you do them solo since people race through dialogue).
    • Small Team only (STFs will always be challenging, small-team missions - according to Gozer)
    • Medium team (i.e. Fleet Actions - can still only group in 5s but the instance supports dozens)
    • Large Team (maybe someday this demographic will be support).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Pyryck wrote:
    The only whining or crying going on is from the crowd that just can't seem to grasp that individuals playing in a massively multi-player online role playing game would choose to exercise their option to play as an individual while also enjoying the option of experiencing all the content that game developers create! :)

    But, that's just MY opinion... :)

    No one is denying your the right to play solo...you just have to realize not everything will be open to you if you choose to only solo. That's every single MMO out there, otherwise, they would just be single player games. Live with this fact of life, it will make your life easier.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    AngelosOne wrote: »
    Well, not elite status, but effort put into the game. You reap what you sow, if you will. Also, why would I want the game to continue fostering bad players? I want better players around me, not a continuation of the bad players that will continue to be bad players if they only do solo missions and never learn how to work in a team. That pretty much means the game is doomed to an increasingly worse player base that's used to be hand-held for everything. Why? Because the majority of you want solo missions so you can a) not think about strategy or play your class right, because you'll know the mission difficulty will be pretty low and you'll be carried by your away team. No thanks. Point in fact, I think most people don't even know how to solo right......waypoints anyone? Away team tactis? Doubt any of you even heard or thought you could do this in solo missions right?

    You do comprehend that in this posting quoted above, you start off arguing against something being termed "elitist" and then proceed to describe in detail the very definition of "an elitest attitude"? ;)

    Everyone has the option of enjoying the game as they see fit. You have that option. I have that option. Can you agree that we all have options? :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    AngelosOne wrote: »
    Live with this fact of life, it will make your life easier.

    Great advice! And if you live with the fact that people will request things you do not agree with, and your life will be easier as well ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Great advice! And if you live with the fact that people will request things you do not agree with, and your life will be easier as well ;)

    I do live with it, and choose to call it out silliness when I see it. It makes my day better.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Pyryck wrote:
    You do comprehend that in this posting quoted above, you start off arguing against something being termed "elitist" and then proceed to describe in detail the very definition of "an elitest attitude"? ;)

    Everyone has the option of enjoying the game as they see fit. You have that option. I have that option. Can you agree that we all have options? :)

    Lol...so it's elitist to want good players around you, lol? I'm sorry, but I didn't realize hoping that someone that made it to VA actually knows how to play their class was too much to ask. Oh wait, that's right, they probably blasted through the game, being carried by their away team and didn't realize their job was supposed to be more than just point and shoot. Gasp!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    AngelosOne wrote: »
    I do live with it, and choose to call it out silliness when I see it. It makes my day better.

    Oh, I get it. By "live with it" you mean keep posting about it. So I guess that means you want the people who want solo STFs to keep posting about it while they "live with it".
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