This is the real problem with the anti-STF argument. Essentially, those who don't like teaming are telling the Devs, "You're not allowed to make that type of content, because the majority of us prefer another type."
That is false. No one said the STFs should be removed, or changed to solo-only. All that anyone has requested is that a solo VERSION be added. That would mean the current group version would still exist.
And as I pointed out (though, to be fair, Gozer pointed it out first), Nagus, if you strip down an STF to a solo version, it isn't an STF anymore, its a (kinda bad) Featured Episode. Soloable or groupable, by either faction. So yes, that means that STF's (5-man dungeon content) would cease to exist.
So yes, that means that STF's (5-man dungeon content) would cease to exist.
Once again, that is false. The current version would still exist, there would simply be a solo(stripped down, whatever you want to call it) version too.
Once again, that is false. The current version would still exist, there would simply be a solo(stripped down, whatever you want to call it) version too.
Is it the math that's challenging here? If its soloable, it ain't a 5-man. Its for 1-5 players, ala...I dunno...a Featured Episode.
Let me ask you the other way...if they took the recent Romulan Feature Episode series, and they made it 5-man only...would they be changing the type of content that it is?
The beauty of STO is that you can play almost every mission or episode solo or teamed. The only "current" exceptions to that are the STF's which require a 5-player team. I for one would like to see the STF's able to be soloed OR teamed.
So, in this, your first post in the thread, Pyryck, you said that the only content in the game that forces teaming is STFs currently, and that you want them to be soloable...and then you say to me...
No one posting here in this topic has ever written or typed that they did not want forced-teaming missions to exist in the game. Please try reading the postings again.
So, I guess you need to please try reading (your own) postings again. Because you yourself typed what you claimed no one had ever typed.
Is it the math that's challenging here? If its soloable, it ain't a 5-man.
Your right, the solo version wouldnt be 5-man. But the current 5-man version would still exist. No one is saying that should be removed, and that is what you were claiming in your previous posts:
'"So yes, that means that STF's (5-man dungeon content) would cease to exist"
"This is the real problem with the anti-STF argument. Essentially, those who don't like teaming are telling the Devs, "You're not allowed to make that type of conteny, because the majority of us prefer another type."
"this case, the people on the pro-teaming side are just arguing that this type of content (that they like), namely STFs, should exist, whereas those who don't enjoy teaming don't want it to exist, for those folks, or anyone else."
Once again, no one is saying the current 5-man versions should be removed. People have only asked for a solo version as well.
Let me ask you the other way...if they took the recent Romulan Feature Episode series, and they made it 5-man only...would they be changing the type of content that it is?
I guess it would also be fair to ask for Cryptic to remake every single episode into a mission that requires 5 people to complete due to puzzles etc. that need human beings to complete?
Once again, no one is saying the current 5-man versions should be removed. People have only asked for a solo version as well.
You didn't answer my question. I'm trying to help you understand my point (which you haven't shown that you do yet). If the devs took the Romulan Feature Episode series and changed it into an STF by requiring 5 people to do it, by making it 5-man only, would that change the type of content that it is?
I guess it would also be fair to ask for Cryptic to remake every single episode into a mission that requires 5 people to complete due to puzzles etc. that need human beings to complete?
It would be essentially the same argument, yeah. "This is the type of content that I personally enjoy most, make everything in the game into it." The only thing that makes the "Turn everything into Featured Episodes" argument seem more reasonable is that its the tyranny of the majority at the moment.
You didn't answer my question. I'm trying to help you understand my point (which you haven't shown that you do yet). If the devs took the Romulan Feature Episode series and changed it into an STF by requiring 5 people to do it, by making it 5-man only, would that change the type of content that it is?
I'll be happy to address your question once you address my point that I made before you asked it. In your previous post, you said:
"In this case, the people on the pro-teaming side are just arguing that this type of content (that they like), namely STFs, should exist, whereas those who don't enjoy teaming don't want it to exist, for those folks, or anyone else."
Now please explain how someone asking for a solo VERSION of the STF means they are saying that the group version "shouldnt exist". Where has anyone said the group version shouldnt exist like you claim?
Is it the math that's challenging here? If its soloable, it ain't a 5-man. Its for 1-5 players, ala...I dunno...a Featured Episode.
Let me ask you the other way...if they took the recent Romulan Feature Episode series, and they made it 5-man only...would they be changing the type of content that it is?
I would have no problem if they made a 5-man version of the recent Romulan Feature Episode series. I'm not sure why you continue to pretend that that would necessitate removing the current version. I can virtually guarantee they would not do anything so counter-productive.
I guess it would also be fair to ask for Cryptic to remake every single episode into a mission that requires 5 people to complete due to puzzles etc. that need human beings to complete?
Of course it would fair, but I would suggest you find a whole lot more players who want to do forced 5-man content if you want a chance of them agreeing to do it. And, if instead of asking them to remake them, you asked them to make different versions, that would probably help your cause also.
So, in this, your first post in the thread, Pyryck, you said that the only content in the game that forces teaming is STFs currently, and that you want them to be soloable...and then you say to me...
So, I guess you need to please try reading (your own) postings again. Because you yourself typed what you claimed no one had ever typed.
I NEVER typed a thing about removing 5-man content. YOU mistakenly or intentionally twisted the idea around to fit in with your own views. Now, you may go back and re-read my posting.
Now please explain how someone asking for a solo VERSION of the STF means they are saying that the group version "shouldnt exist". Where has anyone said the group version shouldnt exist like you claim?
I'm trying to, Nagus. And if you were really wanting to understand my point, you'd answer the question. I never said the 'group version wouldn't exist'. I pointed to two types of content in this game:
(Featured) Episodes - Instanced adventures that can be played by 1-5 players.
STF's - 5-man dungeons
There are only 4 STF's in the game. If you convert them from the type of content that they are (5-man dungeons) to another type of content (Feature Episodes), then there will be no more STF's in the game. Ergo, STF's will have ceased to exist.
Again, if I'm expressing it poorly, see Gozer's post, reposted in this very thread, where he points out the same thing.
I NEVER typed a thing about removing 5-man content. YOU mistakenly or intentionally twisted the idea around to fit in with your own views. Now, you may go back and re-read my posting.
You're arguing with quotes from yourself, not with me.
I am curious. Why do people believe the Devs have been adding class specific tasks for accolades etc. into missions lately? Why do you think they are adding in Voice Communication and auto-grouping for STFs? Could it be because they want you to solo the content more?
I'm trying to, Nagus. And if you were really wanting to understand my point, you'd answer the question. I never said the 'group version wouldn't exist'. I pointed to two types of content in this game:
(Featured) Episodes - Instanced adventures that can be played by 1-5 players.
STF's - 5-man dungeons
There are only 4 STF's in the game. If you convert them from the type of content that they are (5-man dungeons) to another type of content (Feature Episodes), then there will be no more STF's in the game. Ergo, STF's will have ceased to exist.
Again, if I'm expressing it poorly, see Gozer's post, reposted in this very thread, where he points out the same thing.
If Cryptic WERE to provide the OPTION of the STF's to be soloed, the original 5-man STF's would still exist.
NOTHING WOULD BE CONVERTED. There would be another option. Please get that concept thru your head!
Why do you bother playing a MMO if you really do not want to team with others?
Why do you bother posting on a forum when you don't want to consider other people's opinions?
There are lots of 'solo' MMO players, but they mostly don't come and fight on the forums because they don't care about it, they're playing the game their way not your way. Game forums are almost entirely worthless for getting anything done and inevitably have a clique of posters/borderline trolls who tear down anything that doesn't meet their approval. In a situation like that who'd want to bother interacting with other 'players'?
I am curious. Why do people believe the Devs have been adding class specific tasks for accolades etc. into missions lately? Why do you think they are adding in Voice Communication and auto-grouping for STFs? Could it be because they want you to solo the content more?
Umm...it could be that Cryptic is planning on offering "other options" to STO that would give all players more ways to experience the game?
There are only 4 STF's in the game. If you convert them from the type of content that they are (5-man dungeons) to another type of content (Feature Episodes), then there will be no more STF's in the game. Ergo, STF's will have ceased to exist.
That is false. No one said the STFs should be removed, or changed to solo-only. All that anyone has requested is that a solo VERSION be added. That would mean the current group version would still exist.
If Cryptic WERE to provide the OPTION of the STF's to be soloed, the original 5-man STF's would still exist.
NOTHING WOULD BE CONVERTED. There would be another option. Please get that concept thru your head!
So, am I to understand that what you're arguing for is not that the STF's be converted so that they can work for teams of 1-5 players, but rather that they leave them as is, and then spend a bunch of dev time creating some other thing which is for single players only with a similar plot, but with all the puzzles and most of the mobs removed to make it soloable?
What about the people who want to do it with 3 players?
What about the people who want to do it with 3 players?
Per Gozer's comments, they are ALREADY planning on going back and reworking the STFs to function with the difficutly slider. The current versions will be "advanced", meaning there will be an easier version(normal) and a harder version(elite). The easier version(normal) should be do-able with less than 5 people. But since they are ALREADY planning on going back and reworking the STFs, they might as well make a solo version as well and make everyone happy.
Nagus, its become a recurring theme when you and I have discussions on here that rather than try to understand the point I'm trying to make, you try to win the argument. I'm not out to 'win the internet', so feel free to collect all the 'points' from this thread. I'm here trying to have a discussion about the game. If you'd like to try to understand where I'm coming from, or discuss the issue, great. If you're just going to keep reposting the same thing (in violation of forum rules) to try to 'win' something, then this will be my last response to you here.
So, am I to understand that what you're arguing for is not that the STF's be converted so that they can work for teams of 1-5 players, but rather that they leave them as is, and then spend a bunch of dev time creating some other thing which is for single players only with a similar plot, but with all the puzzles and most of the mobs removed to make it soloable?
What about the people who want to do it with 3 players?
That is essentially it. They want a soloable version of the STFs so they do not have to bother with other people. They are not asking for the existing STFs to be removed.
So, am I to understand that what you're arguing for is not that the STF's be converted so that they can work for teams of 1-5 players, but rather that they leave them as is, and then spend a bunch of dev time creating some other thing which is for single players only with a similar plot, but with all the puzzles and most of the mobs removed to make it soloable?
What about the people who want to do it with 3 players?
OPTION noun
1. the power or right of choosing.
2. something that may be or is chosen; choice.
3. the act of choosing.
Can we agree on the definition of the word "option"?
Per Gozer's comments, they are ALREADY planning on going back and reworking the STFs to function with the difficutly slider. The current versions will be "advanced", meaning there will be an easier version(normal) and a harder version(elite). The easier version(normal) should be do-able with less than 5 people. But since they are ALREADY planning on going back and reworking the STFs, they might as well make a solo version as well and make everyone happy.
So, you're confirming that you are in fact requesting that in addition to what they're already doing, you want them to go back and spend resources developing a solo (only) mission with the same vague general plot of each of the STF's, with all the puzzles and most of the mobs removed, and with different rewards?
And so my question becomes...why exactly? The STFs have pretty simplistic plots, they're built around the puzzles and the obstacles that it requires teamwork to overcome. Seems like a terrible waste of dev time that they could be using on new Featured Episodes.
I, frankly, assumed that the argument was for them to become 1-5 player scaling because that makes a bit more sense. I don't get what the current suggestion actually accomplishes.
You didn't answer my question. I'm trying to help you understand my point (which you haven't shown that you do yet). If the devs took the Romulan Feature Episode series and changed it into an STF by requiring 5 people to do it, by making it 5-man only, would that change the type of content that it is?
Assuming the content of the mission is the same, then no. It's the same mission the only difference is the fact you have to team up to play it. The only thing that has changed is the parameter on HOW you play it, not the actual content within the mission.
Which brings us to what this is all about... how people play the missions.
On the one hand, you have people who feel there should be missions that only people who are teamed up can play, and then you have people who want missions where you can choose to run them teamed up or with your BOs.
As it stands, you can run every mission in the game on a 5 man team. Since it's already been established by Gozer that a STF without the team requirement is a "just" normal mission, then you can make every mission in the game a STF for yourself by forcing yourself to find 4 other people before running it.
In the end this is about wanting to make sure OTHER people are forced to team up to do missions and it's on that principal I disagree. How someone else chooses to play is completely irrelevant to whether or not I enjoy the game.
Should they make solo versions of the STFs? Sure, make them into a featured series and let people who don't want to team up enjoy the story. Should they continue making missions where the ONLY thing that distinguishes them from other missions is the fact you are forced team up? No, leave it optional. Let those who enjoy teaming up do so and those who do not run it with their BOs.
Comments
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3431904#post3431904
And as I pointed out (though, to be fair, Gozer pointed it out first), Nagus, if you strip down an STF to a solo version, it isn't an STF anymore, its a (kinda bad) Featured Episode. Soloable or groupable, by either faction. So yes, that means that STF's (5-man dungeon content) would cease to exist.
Once again, that is false. The current version would still exist, there would simply be a solo(stripped down, whatever you want to call it) version too.
Is it the math that's challenging here? If its soloable, it ain't a 5-man. Its for 1-5 players, ala...I dunno...a Featured Episode.
Let me ask you the other way...if they took the recent Romulan Feature Episode series, and they made it 5-man only...would they be changing the type of content that it is?
So, in this, your first post in the thread, Pyryck, you said that the only content in the game that forces teaming is STFs currently, and that you want them to be soloable...and then you say to me...
So, I guess you need to please try reading (your own) postings again. Because you yourself typed what you claimed no one had ever typed.
Your right, the solo version wouldnt be 5-man. But the current 5-man version would still exist. No one is saying that should be removed, and that is what you were claiming in your previous posts:
Once again, no one is saying the current 5-man versions should be removed. People have only asked for a solo version as well.
I guess it would also be fair to ask for Cryptic to remake every single episode into a mission that requires 5 people to complete due to puzzles etc. that need human beings to complete?
You didn't answer my question. I'm trying to help you understand my point (which you haven't shown that you do yet). If the devs took the Romulan Feature Episode series and changed it into an STF by requiring 5 people to do it, by making it 5-man only, would that change the type of content that it is?
It would be essentially the same argument, yeah. "This is the type of content that I personally enjoy most, make everything in the game into it." The only thing that makes the "Turn everything into Featured Episodes" argument seem more reasonable is that its the tyranny of the majority at the moment.
I'll be happy to address your question once you address my point that I made before you asked it. In your previous post, you said:
Now please explain how someone asking for a solo VERSION of the STF means they are saying that the group version "shouldnt exist". Where has anyone said the group version shouldnt exist like you claim?
I would have no problem if they made a 5-man version of the recent Romulan Feature Episode series. I'm not sure why you continue to pretend that that would necessitate removing the current version. I can virtually guarantee they would not do anything so counter-productive.
Of course it would fair, but I would suggest you find a whole lot more players who want to do forced 5-man content if you want a chance of them agreeing to do it. And, if instead of asking them to remake them, you asked them to make different versions, that would probably help your cause also.
I NEVER typed a thing about removing 5-man content. YOU mistakenly or intentionally twisted the idea around to fit in with your own views. Now, you may go back and re-read my posting.
I'm trying to, Nagus. And if you were really wanting to understand my point, you'd answer the question. I never said the 'group version wouldn't exist'. I pointed to two types of content in this game:
(Featured) Episodes - Instanced adventures that can be played by 1-5 players.
STF's - 5-man dungeons
There are only 4 STF's in the game. If you convert them from the type of content that they are (5-man dungeons) to another type of content (Feature Episodes), then there will be no more STF's in the game. Ergo, STF's will have ceased to exist.
Again, if I'm expressing it poorly, see Gozer's post, reposted in this very thread, where he points out the same thing.
You're arguing with quotes from yourself, not with me.
If Cryptic WERE to provide the OPTION of the STF's to be soloed, the original 5-man STF's would still exist.
NOTHING WOULD BE CONVERTED. There would be another option. Please get that concept thru your head!
Why do you bother posting on a forum when you don't want to consider other people's opinions?
There are lots of 'solo' MMO players, but they mostly don't come and fight on the forums because they don't care about it, they're playing the game their way not your way. Game forums are almost entirely worthless for getting anything done and inevitably have a clique of posters/borderline trolls who tear down anything that doesn't meet their approval. In a situation like that who'd want to bother interacting with other 'players'?
Umm...it could be that Cryptic is planning on offering "other options" to STO that would give all players more ways to experience the game?
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3431904#post3431904
I would ask you the very same question.
I am considering his opinion. In my consideration he's being inconsiderate.
So, am I to understand that what you're arguing for is not that the STF's be converted so that they can work for teams of 1-5 players, but rather that they leave them as is, and then spend a bunch of dev time creating some other thing which is for single players only with a similar plot, but with all the puzzles and most of the mobs removed to make it soloable?
What about the people who want to do it with 3 players?
I think it more likely that you will be seeing more team oriented content in the future, not less.
Per Gozer's comments, they are ALREADY planning on going back and reworking the STFs to function with the difficutly slider. The current versions will be "advanced", meaning there will be an easier version(normal) and a harder version(elite). The easier version(normal) should be do-able with less than 5 people. But since they are ALREADY planning on going back and reworking the STFs, they might as well make a solo version as well and make everyone happy.
Nagus, its become a recurring theme when you and I have discussions on here that rather than try to understand the point I'm trying to make, you try to win the argument. I'm not out to 'win the internet', so feel free to collect all the 'points' from this thread. I'm here trying to have a discussion about the game. If you'd like to try to understand where I'm coming from, or discuss the issue, great. If you're just going to keep reposting the same thing (in violation of forum rules) to try to 'win' something, then this will be my last response to you here.
That is essentially it. They want a soloable version of the STFs so they do not have to bother with other people. They are not asking for the existing STFs to be removed.
OPTION noun
1. the power or right of choosing.
2. something that may be or is chosen; choice.
3. the act of choosing.
Can we agree on the definition of the word "option"?
Wonderful news! There will then be more options for everyone!
So, you're confirming that you are in fact requesting that in addition to what they're already doing, you want them to go back and spend resources developing a solo (only) mission with the same vague general plot of each of the STF's, with all the puzzles and most of the mobs removed, and with different rewards?
And so my question becomes...why exactly? The STFs have pretty simplistic plots, they're built around the puzzles and the obstacles that it requires teamwork to overcome. Seems like a terrible waste of dev time that they could be using on new Featured Episodes.
I, frankly, assumed that the argument was for them to become 1-5 player scaling because that makes a bit more sense. I don't get what the current suggestion actually accomplishes.
Assuming the content of the mission is the same, then no. It's the same mission the only difference is the fact you have to team up to play it. The only thing that has changed is the parameter on HOW you play it, not the actual content within the mission.
Which brings us to what this is all about... how people play the missions.
On the one hand, you have people who feel there should be missions that only people who are teamed up can play, and then you have people who want missions where you can choose to run them teamed up or with your BOs.
As it stands, you can run every mission in the game on a 5 man team. Since it's already been established by Gozer that a STF without the team requirement is a "just" normal mission, then you can make every mission in the game a STF for yourself by forcing yourself to find 4 other people before running it.
In the end this is about wanting to make sure OTHER people are forced to team up to do missions and it's on that principal I disagree. How someone else chooses to play is completely irrelevant to whether or not I enjoy the game.
Should they make solo versions of the STFs? Sure, make them into a featured series and let people who don't want to team up enjoy the story. Should they continue making missions where the ONLY thing that distinguishes them from other missions is the fact you are forced team up? No, leave it optional. Let those who enjoy teaming up do so and those who do not run it with their BOs.