You can't convince those who won't listen. Once the conversation is no longer going both ways, then the discussion is over and the disagreement begins. As has been said there is no way to tell exactly what will happen between now and May/June. But I am hoping the new ground combat changes and the expansion of the Klingon PVE will go as they are currently described. In the mean time we will just have to keep busy.
They have already revamped crafting, so they are now addressing the next biggest "least liked" issue; ground combat. Most professional critics also agree ground combat needs a big change.
I had completely forgotten about the least liked section of the poll.
It's somewhat hopeful when you consider how far crafting has come since launch.
Here's something that I wrote in the OP: "The problem, as I see it, is that even if Cryptic does change the Ground Combat into something that's absolutely awesome, it's still not going to magically cause me to enjoy those repetitive "Kill 5 of 5" missions."
So let's say that you're all correct. Cryptic does this massive Ground Combat Revamp and everyone loves it. It's so awesome sauce that every time you draw your weapon trumpets roar and peasants cheer.
Is this awesome new combat system going to somehow make those "Kill 5 of 5" missions morph into something that isn't boring and repetitive?
Is it going to save the subscriptions that will be lost when people get tired of waiting during this four months of no new content?
And is a reticule really that awesome? I've been playing FPS' since DOOM came out. I like that style of game, but I really can't understand that kind of hype about a reticule.
Is this awesome new combat system going to somehow make those "Kill 5 of 5" missions morph into something that isn't boring and repetitive?
You mean exploration? That revamp is coming in Season 5 I believe. So first their addressing the mechanics of ground exploration, then their addressing the boring "kill 5 of 5" star cluster missions. But until Season 5 comes, ground combat will be more fun A) for people leveling the game((which happens to be the majority of the playerbase according to dstahl)), for playing new featured episdoes, remastered episodes or simply replaying existing episodes, and C) for playing missions in the Foundry that feature ground combat.
They have already revamped crafting, so they are now addressing the next biggest "least liked" issue; ground combat. Most professional critics also agree ground combat needs a big change.
I am not disputing the fact that Ground Combat needs to be revamped. But it doesnt need to be turned into an FPS. It needs to be made so that the specials fire correctly, it becomes less monotonous, and that the mobs that are encountered cannot one-shot you, and most importantly that it actually feels like it has a purpose other than just to throw the player some cannon fodder. That can be done within the scope of the existing ground combat system. The NPC pathfinding could also use some work, but that does not require the reinvention of the combat system, either.
I would rather see them fix the elements that they keep saying they are putting on hold until the combat revamp. Make what they have work as intended. That is all the players of Star Wars Galaxies wanted before the NGE and to a lesser degree, before the CU. And I will wager that is all the players of COX wanted before they implemented sweeping change there that swept a lot of people away.
They have already revamped crafting, so they are now addressing the next biggest "least liked" issue; ground combat. Most professional critics also agree ground combat needs a big change.
we are calling 20% a majority now? not saying they shouldn't address ground combat, but i don't think 20% counts as proof of majority.
I am not disputing the fact that Ground Combat needs to be revamped. But it doesnt need to be turned into an FPS. It needs to be made so that the specials fire correctly, it becomes less monotonous, and that the mobs that are encountered cannot one-shot you, and most importantly that it actually feels like it has a purpose other than just to throw the player some cannon fodder. That can be done within the scope of the existing ground combat system. The NPC pathfinding could also use some work, but that does not require the reinvention of the combat system, either.
I would rather see them fix the elements that they keep saying they are putting on hold until the combat revamp. Make what they have work as intended. That is all the players of Star Wars Galaxies wanted before the NGE and to a lesser degree, before the CU. And I will wager that is all the players of COX wanted before they implemented sweeping change there that swept a lot of people away.
Fix it. Don't reinvent it.
Everything stated in here is win. In my opinion the only thing wrong with the current ground combat is 1 shot mobs. But I sure as hell don't want they to turn this into a FPS. That would totally feel less trek.
I think my main issue from the scraps of information I have heard/seen about the GCR, which I think is the OP's concern, is that they are focusing on the wrong area to change.
The issue of Ground combat is not the "view" my character has but the fact that ground combat has very little variety. All guns of the same level have the same dps, they all have the same range what sets them apart is the rate of fire and if they are AoE's in my view. Essentially your choice of weapon is limited, as there are twelve very similar weapons (even if there are 6 energy types).
Then you have ground abilities, which for the most part are boring, the only three I like are the Medic (science), the Fabrications (engineer) and Close Combat (Tactical). And that last one doesn't even work with BoFF's yet.
And on top of all that is the repetitiveness of the earlier missions, the "kill five" as the OP stated, there's really not that much variety.
My friend asked me what made Champions online (which is completely ground combat) fun compared to STO's ground, and simply it was the abilities (including: holding down the key to power up and blocking) and the objectives. Which I think the Developers should be looking at instead of making a "fancy" and optional visual change.
Here's something that I wrote in the OP: "The problem, as I see it, is that even if Cryptic does change the Ground Combat into something that's absolutely awesome, it's still not going to magically cause me to enjoy those repetitive "Kill 5 of 5" missions."
Of course not but it will make the ground combat sections more enjoyable throughout the game (i.e. weeklies).
we are calling 20% a majority now? not saying they shouldn't address ground combat, but i don't think 20% counts as proof of majority.
You're right that there was no simple majority but when asked in a poll what they disliked, it was second most disliked option. (You couldn't vote for more than one and there was no run-off voting).
Considering how much exploration is loathed on the forums, one should not how much lower that aspect of the game is disliked than Ground Combat, PvP, or even "Other"
I think my main issue from the scraps of information I have heard/seen about the GCR, which I think is the OP's concern, is that they are focusing on the wrong area to change.
The issue of Ground combat is not the "view" my character has but the fact that ground combat has very little variety. All guns of the same level have the same dps, they all have the same range what sets them apart is the rate of fire and if they are AoE's in my view. Essentially your choice of weapon is limited, as there are twelve very similar weapons (even if there are 6 energy types).
Then you have ground abilities, which for the most part are boring, the only three I like are the Medic (science), the Fabrications (engineer) and Close Combat (Tactical). And that last one doesn't even work with BoFF's yet.
And on top of all that is the repetitiveness of the earlier missions, the "kill five" as the OP stated, there's really not that much variety.
My friend asked me what made Champions online (which is completely ground combat) fun compared to STO's ground, and simply it was the abilities (including: holding down the key to power up and blocking) and the objectives. Which I think the Developers should be looking at instead of making a "fancy" and optional visual change.
Ground Combat is also changing the gun distances and powers to make them feel individual.
The devs aren't focusing on the optional component but it's already there for those who want it.
To some degree you can't escape the Kill 5 bears model, thats part of the questing model, you can dress it up switch it around. IE Heal 5 bears. Find 5 lost bears, scan 5 bears, feed 5 bears. Go to to 5 places and help these 5 bears.
That is a component of MMO design. Season 5 revamp will certainly expand the tables they are using to generate those missions, but in the end there is only so much you can do. On a fundamental level that not gonna change. That also is irrelevant to the ground combat revamp, as your just a likely (probably more so) to do that in space as on the ground. So if that not acceptable I think playing MMOs in the long term may not be your cup of tea.
MMO subscription numbers are gonna vary and I'm sure they will lose folks while they do this change. That would have happened ether way though. STO has lost its rush fans, those who played it just cause it was new. I'm sure it gotten some steam from the FE really taking off. Its also lost people to the release of Rift and DA II. I know i lost couple folks to rifts the day it came out, which was before the release of Cutting the cord. Any steps you take in MMO design will lose your Subscribers. That the nature of it, the question will be when S4 drops will they gain it back?
That is up in the air. To hard to predict. If the Klingon PVE section is good they will certainly see a boost from that. The ground combat has been seen and commented on across the industry as needing work, if the revamp is successful then it could also go along way boosting there numbers.
Keep in mind the ground Revamp is NOT just about making STO ground into an FPS. Its about fundamentally changing how you play on the ground. Changing the skill tree, BO on the ground, BO powers on the ground, how you control BO, how smart BOs are, how ground skill work, how weapons work. How the enemy acts, what weapons the enemies have, what powers the enemies have. How well the enemies are scripted. What the enemies will drop and so forth. A better place to spend this effort would be to put forward what you would like to see in the ground changes then to say that that they shouldn't happen.
Ground Combat is also changing the gun distances and powers to make them feel individual.
The devs aren't focusing on the optional component but it's already there for those who want it.
Yeah I heard that they wanted to do that, and also change some of the weapon abilities, but from what I made out they aren't doing many hard changes, and that most of it is optional. Probably to avoid the comparisons to the examples given in this thread when those changes aren't accepted. Though I am sure that they are just showing us the visual's and keeping some other stuff on the down-low, but I still hope for a more drastic change then what they have announced, especially seeing as it is being a talking point from the Devs and probably the most anticipated feature coming in Season 4.
Yeah I heard that they wanted to do that, and also change some of the weapon abilities, but from what I made out they aren't doing many hard changes, and that most of it is optional. Probably to avoid the comparisons to the examples given in this thread when those changes aren't accepted. Though I am sure that they are just showing us the visual's and keeping some other stuff on the down-low, but I still hope for a more drastic change then what they have announced, especially seeing as it is being a talking point from the Devs and probably the most anticipated feature coming in Season 4.
The gun changes are going to be forced but the current weapons are so similar that I don't mind changing things up. It's not optional.
I must agree that I wouldn't put this in the same category as NGE. Star Wars Galaxies had awesome ground combat. STO, not so much.
Don't know if I would use the word "awesome" so much to describe SWG pre-CU or NGE combat but it was reasonably solid and far less clunky then ground combat. Where space combat seems to flow in STO, ground combat just seem so stuck in the mud. SWG did have its own problems like melee vs ranged and so on. But it was much better then what we have here today.
The gun changes are going to be forced but the current weapons are so similar that I don't mind changing things up. It's not optional.
Yeah I know, that's why I said most.
I agree that it needs to changed, even though I don't mind the current ground combat as much as other people do. But I hope it's more than just the visual update they seem to be showing off.
Why not just go the Argo? Special shuttle craft (they seem to like the shuttles at the moment) drops down the buggy and we do an explore mission to find the anomalies that way in a Similar fashion to the platformer game Jak 3?
For those who are not worried, I would say do because nothing will actually change but a camera perspective and the mechanics we DON'T have a problem with.
For those that do, lets just say that the problem with dual pistols and BOs will still be with us long after season 4 and we will be having the same discussion as more promises are made for season 5.
Personally I don't think ground combat needed a whole season to be fixed. Small changes each patch could improve our experience and eliminate issues that seem to frustrate people.Here are some things that i think could have been done separately while a revamp was worked at their leisure:
1) Fix the NPC attack mode priority. No more running ot shoot someone in the face. Only certain mobs would engage in melee when a target is in proximity. LOS improved to stop BOs and NPCs to run across a group to shoot.
2) Fix the rapid bolt and compressed pistol scaling damage. Instead use a BO like progression (as they shoot pea shooters compared to NPcs) and give them wider skills sets that they use in conjuction with their weapons to make them more interesting.
3) Eliminate the ridiculous amount of HP and shields. It slows combat down without offering a real challenge. Its all about the time sink in all the wrong places. Special mobs with equipment bonuses or special resistances and gear (from existing assets) would make things more variable. Make also NPCs use weapon types other than disruptors and photon grenades would also help things along.
4) Introduce a random generated layout for ground map interiors. Rooms, scannables and objectives would all be places randomly even if you run the same map twice. We now have the foundry so this should be possible. Adding more base and structure interiors from featured episodes and other already existing tile sets will also help dilute the repetitive nature of those missions.
5) Eliminate chain ability holds, roots and respawns. STF suffer greatly from those issues. Instead have a universal system for ability CDs and diminishing returns. No more different rulesets for NPCs and players. We want consistency. Make the NPCs as effective by allowing bonuses from suggestion #3
So In all I am not fan of waiting seasons to improve stuff that can be done through smaller portions on the more regular patches. Small changes now can alleviate probelms and give the developers more time to "redo" certain features. If one thing I agree most with the OP, is the tendency of Cryptic to hold back certain changes like that because of bigger unrelated changes, which makes for long periods of half thought systems existing without any improvement. This is why exploration, ground combat and BO system are still mostly untouched despite the fact that they form a significant part of the game.
WE need to know what the season 4 ground revamp IS exactly before they decide to go down that road and devote resources to it. I say don't make changes for the sake of making one if none likes the outcome.
(snip)
WE need to know what the season 4 ground revamp IS exactly before they decide to go down that road and devote resources to it. I say don't make changes for the sake of making one if none likes the outcome.
The worst part is realistically it will be around may before we get to see the GCR in action. 3-4 months into the development cycle before we see it. I fear that if it is complete TRIBBLE they will either have to dump all that time as wasted resources or foist i crappy system onto us (for now it's optional it could change over 4 months very easily).
I don't get where people are getting the idea that anything other than the FPS interface (which actually changes nothing and just requires more repetitive wrist and finger movement) aspect even can be optional.
I don't get where people are getting the idea that anything other than the FPS interface (which actually changes nothing and just requires more repetitive wrist and finger movement) aspect even can be optional.
The dev's said that the new mode would be optional.
The new interface mode, yes. Which is the least important aspect of any of this.
that was the point i was trying to make. If they change nothing other than the perspective then this is a complete waste of time. If they change everything including the interface i doubt we will be able to opt out of the new weapons damage and range tables or the way abilities will interact with each other.
If no mechanics change combat will still be the same 4 months later. If they change them i doubt the devs will be interested in balancing the new and old system so even if FPS mode is optional we could still end with a crappy system foisted on us or 4 months of wasted time. I am hoping for a sweeping magnificent success that will forever be remembered in klingon songs of glory.
Other MMO history has told me stories of other outcomes.
I'm not saying that this upcoming revamp will be a complete rewrite of the game, as the NGE was, but ED wasn't a complete rewrite of the game and it had much the same effect on CoH/V as the NGE had on SWG.
I would argue that while ED seemed bad at the time, ultimately CoX was better off for it. All the Regen nerfing on the other hand...
I do hope the changes to ground combat are much needed improvements and not just some fluff. I would like to see energy weapons start doing some real damage. It seems odd and totally immersion breaking that an entire away team firing high powered weapons at ground critters (as in the wildlife in Colliseum and Frozen) that have zero shielding and armor does not kill them instantly.
My personal gut feeling is that the ground combat upgrades are going to be disappointing. I hope I am proven wrong.
My personal gut feeling is that the ground combat upgrades are going to be disappointing. I hope I am proven wrong.
If MVAM is any indication of their direction, I'd expect a lot of buggy gimmicks and very little in the way of boring but much more needed and appreciated bug hunting on the long standing, frustrating stuff like one-shot kills.
I would argue that while ED seemed bad at the time, ultimately CoX was better off for it. All the Regen nerfing on the other hand...
Oh I agree with you completely, but my point was never whether ED or anything else was good or bad. My point was about sweeping changes that anger a lot of the players.
A lot of people couldn't, and apparently still can't, see the point that I was trying to make because their anger brought by the mere mention of the NGE blinded them. Which is why I've already said that using it as a comparison in my OP was a mistake.
I do hope the changes to ground combat are much needed improvements and not just some fluff. I would like to see energy weapons start doing some real damage. It seems odd and totally immersion breaking that an entire away team firing high powered weapons at ground critters (as in the wildlife in Colliseum and Frozen) that have zero shielding and armor does not kill them instantly.
My personal gut feeling is that the ground combat upgrades are going to be disappointing. I hope I am proven wrong.
This is also one of my major points. If Cryptic does spend several months creating a whole new Ground Combat System then it'll go live whether we like it or not. Sure they might tweak it a bit, but it'll go live no matter what. And they will never roll it back, ever.
Those of us who've played City of Heroes know this is true. They lost thousands of players when ED went live and they wouldn't even discuss any changes to it. They lost thousands of players again when the PvP changes went live (yes I know they're not Cryptic any longer, but it's the same people and the same corporate culture) and to this day the dev team won't even discuss rolling them back.
I started this thread because I really think it's better to discuss this now instead of a week before it goes live. Because once this new system hits Tribble it will be going live, possibly with a few tweaks, but it will be going live no matter how many people hate it.
If anyone wants to disagree with me on this then name one thing, just one, that was disliked by a large number of people after it went to a live server that Cryptic rolled back. You can't. Because all throughout Cryptic's history nothing that has gone to a live server has ever been rolled back. Ever.
I don't get where people are getting the idea that anything other than the FPS interface (which actually changes nothing and just requires more repetitive wrist and finger movement) aspect even can be optional.
If the new system IS going to be optional, how will it affect grouping mechanics which are already problematic as they are... Effective game play requires that the rules be the same for everyone. Maybe not so much with the difficulty / death penalty slider thing, because it is only conditional upon defeat, and regardless of where someon has their slider set, the mechanics surrounding how one engages in combat and can be defeated are consistant from player to player.
Now enter a system there the very rules of how combat will play out can be different between two groups of players. Group One being the ones who prefer combat as it is now, and Group Two being the ones who prefer the new system. What happens when they group in PvE? Do those in group two who have a more stable internet connection and/or better "twitch" skills have a better chance at mowing down the mobs than those in group one, or those in group two whose twitch skills and/or internet connection arent so great?
Worse yet, How will the combat system "choice" affect PvP? The same questions asked in the above paragraph apply, but are far more problematic. At least in PvE, midxing combat system choices only applies to who is more effective at mob-slaying. In PvP, mixing them together will have a very unbalancing effect, and the only way around that is to have it where players using different combat systems cannot group with or fight against each other. In PvE, anything can fly. But in PvP, the rules need to be the same for everyone on the field.
And right now, one of the biggest complaints is how hard it is to get an effective group together. Having two separate combat systems and the segregation that will be required to keep things balanced will create more problems than will be solved.
So again, I maintain that the best course of action Cryptic can take is to FIX what is currently not working correctly with the current system, not reinvent it.
And really, when you think it through logically, if we will be able to choose between the two systems, it means that in order for the current system to remain a viable choice, its current technical issues will have to be fixed. So why devote man-hours to developing a SECOND combat system AND fixing the problems with the current one, when they can save time by fixing the current one and then get back to delivering what TRULY keeps people playing: New Content...
Unless they have no real plans of fixing the current system and the new system will address the current issues thus giving us THIS choice:
Continue playing the current buggy ground combat
or
Switch to the new system.
IF that is what they have in mind, There is a third option:
Account Cancellation.
And just like what happened with CoX's revamp, and to a greater degree, SWG's revamps, that is exactly what far more people than Cryptic will like will choose. We've already lost out on so many people who didnt play beyond their 30-day trial when the game launched because it was not what it was PROMISED it would be. We don't need to lose any more simply because Cryptic is so intent on devoting several months laying out, integrating and debugging a new system. I would much rather see them take several months and exclusively focus on developing Klingon content. If they devoted as much time to that as they are planning to devote to reinventing combat, then yes, Klingon content CAN be brought to equal quantity with Federation content. And if they are not willing to do that, then just fix the current bugs and add content.
That is really all SOE had to do with SWG. That is all that Cryptic needs to do with STO.
Comments
I had completely forgotten about the least liked section of the poll.
It's somewhat hopeful when you consider how far crafting has come since launch.
So let's say that you're all correct. Cryptic does this massive Ground Combat Revamp and everyone loves it. It's so awesome sauce that every time you draw your weapon trumpets roar and peasants cheer.
Is this awesome new combat system going to somehow make those "Kill 5 of 5" missions morph into something that isn't boring and repetitive?
Is it going to save the subscriptions that will be lost when people get tired of waiting during this four months of no new content?
And is a reticule really that awesome? I've been playing FPS' since DOOM came out. I like that style of game, but I really can't understand that kind of hype about a reticule.
You mean exploration? That revamp is coming in Season 5 I believe. So first their addressing the mechanics of ground exploration, then their addressing the boring "kill 5 of 5" star cluster missions. But until Season 5 comes, ground combat will be more fun A) for people leveling the game((which happens to be the majority of the playerbase according to dstahl)),
I am not disputing the fact that Ground Combat needs to be revamped. But it doesnt need to be turned into an FPS. It needs to be made so that the specials fire correctly, it becomes less monotonous, and that the mobs that are encountered cannot one-shot you, and most importantly that it actually feels like it has a purpose other than just to throw the player some cannon fodder. That can be done within the scope of the existing ground combat system. The NPC pathfinding could also use some work, but that does not require the reinvention of the combat system, either.
I would rather see them fix the elements that they keep saying they are putting on hold until the combat revamp. Make what they have work as intended. That is all the players of Star Wars Galaxies wanted before the NGE and to a lesser degree, before the CU. And I will wager that is all the players of COX wanted before they implemented sweeping change there that swept a lot of people away.
Fix it. Don't reinvent it.
we are calling 20% a majority now? not saying they shouldn't address ground combat, but i don't think 20% counts as proof of majority.
Everything stated in here is win. In my opinion the only thing wrong with the current ground combat is 1 shot mobs. But I sure as hell don't want they to turn this into a FPS. That would totally feel less trek.
The issue of Ground combat is not the "view" my character has but the fact that ground combat has very little variety. All guns of the same level have the same dps, they all have the same range what sets them apart is the rate of fire and if they are AoE's in my view. Essentially your choice of weapon is limited, as there are twelve very similar weapons (even if there are 6 energy types).
Then you have ground abilities, which for the most part are boring, the only three I like are the Medic (science), the Fabrications (engineer) and Close Combat (Tactical). And that last one doesn't even work with BoFF's yet.
And on top of all that is the repetitiveness of the earlier missions, the "kill five" as the OP stated, there's really not that much variety.
My friend asked me what made Champions online (which is completely ground combat) fun compared to STO's ground, and simply it was the abilities (including: holding down the key to power up and blocking) and the objectives. Which I think the Developers should be looking at instead of making a "fancy" and optional visual change.
Of course not but it will make the ground combat sections more enjoyable throughout the game (i.e. weeklies).
You're right that there was no simple majority but when asked in a poll what they disliked, it was second most disliked option. (You couldn't vote for more than one and there was no run-off voting).
Considering how much exploration is loathed on the forums, one should not how much lower that aspect of the game is disliked than Ground Combat, PvP, or even "Other"
Ground Combat is also changing the gun distances and powers to make them feel individual.
The devs aren't focusing on the optional component but it's already there for those who want it.
That is a component of MMO design. Season 5 revamp will certainly expand the tables they are using to generate those missions, but in the end there is only so much you can do. On a fundamental level that not gonna change. That also is irrelevant to the ground combat revamp, as your just a likely (probably more so) to do that in space as on the ground. So if that not acceptable I think playing MMOs in the long term may not be your cup of tea.
MMO subscription numbers are gonna vary and I'm sure they will lose folks while they do this change. That would have happened ether way though. STO has lost its rush fans, those who played it just cause it was new. I'm sure it gotten some steam from the FE really taking off. Its also lost people to the release of Rift and DA II. I know i lost couple folks to rifts the day it came out, which was before the release of Cutting the cord. Any steps you take in MMO design will lose your Subscribers. That the nature of it, the question will be when S4 drops will they gain it back?
That is up in the air. To hard to predict. If the Klingon PVE section is good they will certainly see a boost from that. The ground combat has been seen and commented on across the industry as needing work, if the revamp is successful then it could also go along way boosting there numbers.
Keep in mind the ground Revamp is NOT just about making STO ground into an FPS. Its about fundamentally changing how you play on the ground. Changing the skill tree, BO on the ground, BO powers on the ground, how you control BO, how smart BOs are, how ground skill work, how weapons work. How the enemy acts, what weapons the enemies have, what powers the enemies have. How well the enemies are scripted. What the enemies will drop and so forth. A better place to spend this effort would be to put forward what you would like to see in the ground changes then to say that that they shouldn't happen.
Yeah I heard that they wanted to do that, and also change some of the weapon abilities, but from what I made out they aren't doing many hard changes, and that most of it is optional. Probably to avoid the comparisons to the examples given in this thread when those changes aren't accepted. Though I am sure that they are just showing us the visual's and keeping some other stuff on the down-low, but I still hope for a more drastic change then what they have announced, especially seeing as it is being a talking point from the Devs and probably the most anticipated feature coming in Season 4.
The gun changes are going to be forced but the current weapons are so similar that I don't mind changing things up. It's not optional.
The irony is that even something as reviled post-NGE ground combat in SWG feels better than STO (imo).
I haven't checked out SWG in a year but I'm already enjoying it.
Don't know if I would use the word "awesome" so much to describe SWG pre-CU or NGE combat but it was reasonably solid and far less clunky then ground combat. Where space combat seems to flow in STO, ground combat just seem so stuck in the mud. SWG did have its own problems like melee vs ranged and so on. But it was much better then what we have here today.
Yeah I know, that's why I said most.
I agree that it needs to changed, even though I don't mind the current ground combat as much as other people do. But I hope it's more than just the visual update they seem to be showing off.
Halo had some good ground vehicles and hovercraft, now that the federation is at war with half the galaxy, I am sure combat vehicles would be use.
The Warhog from Halo We could have one for Ground Combat in STO.
kolaran-atv was used in Star Trek Nemesis.
Plus, the cryptic engine does aloud characters in Champions Online to fly so we could get Jet packs or a small flying craft
Why not just go the Argo? Special shuttle craft (they seem to like the shuttles at the moment) drops down the buggy and we do an explore mission to find the anomalies that way in a Similar fashion to the platformer game Jak 3?
For those that do, lets just say that the problem with dual pistols and BOs will still be with us long after season 4 and we will be having the same discussion as more promises are made for season 5.
Personally I don't think ground combat needed a whole season to be fixed. Small changes each patch could improve our experience and eliminate issues that seem to frustrate people.Here are some things that i think could have been done separately while a revamp was worked at their leisure:
1) Fix the NPC attack mode priority. No more running ot shoot someone in the face. Only certain mobs would engage in melee when a target is in proximity. LOS improved to stop BOs and NPCs to run across a group to shoot.
2) Fix the rapid bolt and compressed pistol scaling damage. Instead use a BO like progression (as they shoot pea shooters compared to NPcs) and give them wider skills sets that they use in conjuction with their weapons to make them more interesting.
3) Eliminate the ridiculous amount of HP and shields. It slows combat down without offering a real challenge. Its all about the time sink in all the wrong places. Special mobs with equipment bonuses or special resistances and gear (from existing assets) would make things more variable. Make also NPCs use weapon types other than disruptors and photon grenades would also help things along.
4) Introduce a random generated layout for ground map interiors. Rooms, scannables and objectives would all be places randomly even if you run the same map twice. We now have the foundry so this should be possible. Adding more base and structure interiors from featured episodes and other already existing tile sets will also help dilute the repetitive nature of those missions.
5) Eliminate chain ability holds, roots and respawns. STF suffer greatly from those issues. Instead have a universal system for ability CDs and diminishing returns. No more different rulesets for NPCs and players. We want consistency. Make the NPCs as effective by allowing bonuses from suggestion #3
So In all I am not fan of waiting seasons to improve stuff that can be done through smaller portions on the more regular patches. Small changes now can alleviate probelms and give the developers more time to "redo" certain features. If one thing I agree most with the OP, is the tendency of Cryptic to hold back certain changes like that because of bigger unrelated changes, which makes for long periods of half thought systems existing without any improvement. This is why exploration, ground combat and BO system are still mostly untouched despite the fact that they form a significant part of the game.
WE need to know what the season 4 ground revamp IS exactly before they decide to go down that road and devote resources to it. I say don't make changes for the sake of making one if none likes the outcome.
The worst part is realistically it will be around may before we get to see the GCR in action. 3-4 months into the development cycle before we see it. I fear that if it is complete TRIBBLE they will either have to dump all that time as wasted resources or foist i crappy system onto us (for now it's optional it could change over 4 months very easily).
The dev's said that the new mode would be optional.
The new interface mode, yes. Which is the least important aspect of any of this.
that was the point i was trying to make. If they change nothing other than the perspective then this is a complete waste of time. If they change everything including the interface i doubt we will be able to opt out of the new weapons damage and range tables or the way abilities will interact with each other.
If no mechanics change combat will still be the same 4 months later. If they change them i doubt the devs will be interested in balancing the new and old system so even if FPS mode is optional we could still end with a crappy system foisted on us or 4 months of wasted time. I am hoping for a sweeping magnificent success that will forever be remembered in klingon songs of glory.
Other MMO history has told me stories of other outcomes.
I would argue that while ED seemed bad at the time, ultimately CoX was better off for it. All the Regen nerfing on the other hand...
I do hope the changes to ground combat are much needed improvements and not just some fluff. I would like to see energy weapons start doing some real damage. It seems odd and totally immersion breaking that an entire away team firing high powered weapons at ground critters (as in the wildlife in Colliseum and Frozen) that have zero shielding and armor does not kill them instantly.
My personal gut feeling is that the ground combat upgrades are going to be disappointing. I hope I am proven wrong.
A lot of people couldn't, and apparently still can't, see the point that I was trying to make because their anger brought by the mere mention of the NGE blinded them. Which is why I've already said that using it as a comparison in my OP was a mistake.
This is also one of my major points. If Cryptic does spend several months creating a whole new Ground Combat System then it'll go live whether we like it or not. Sure they might tweak it a bit, but it'll go live no matter what. And they will never roll it back, ever.
Those of us who've played City of Heroes know this is true. They lost thousands of players when ED went live and they wouldn't even discuss any changes to it. They lost thousands of players again when the PvP changes went live (yes I know they're not Cryptic any longer, but it's the same people and the same corporate culture) and to this day the dev team won't even discuss rolling them back.
I started this thread because I really think it's better to discuss this now instead of a week before it goes live. Because once this new system hits Tribble it will be going live, possibly with a few tweaks, but it will be going live no matter how many people hate it.
If anyone wants to disagree with me on this then name one thing, just one, that was disliked by a large number of people after it went to a live server that Cryptic rolled back. You can't. Because all throughout Cryptic's history nothing that has gone to a live server has ever been rolled back. Ever.
If the new system IS going to be optional, how will it affect grouping mechanics which are already problematic as they are... Effective game play requires that the rules be the same for everyone. Maybe not so much with the difficulty / death penalty slider thing, because it is only conditional upon defeat, and regardless of where someon has their slider set, the mechanics surrounding how one engages in combat and can be defeated are consistant from player to player.
Now enter a system there the very rules of how combat will play out can be different between two groups of players. Group One being the ones who prefer combat as it is now, and Group Two being the ones who prefer the new system. What happens when they group in PvE? Do those in group two who have a more stable internet connection and/or better "twitch" skills have a better chance at mowing down the mobs than those in group one, or those in group two whose twitch skills and/or internet connection arent so great?
Worse yet, How will the combat system "choice" affect PvP? The same questions asked in the above paragraph apply, but are far more problematic. At least in PvE, midxing combat system choices only applies to who is more effective at mob-slaying. In PvP, mixing them together will have a very unbalancing effect, and the only way around that is to have it where players using different combat systems cannot group with or fight against each other. In PvE, anything can fly. But in PvP, the rules need to be the same for everyone on the field.
And right now, one of the biggest complaints is how hard it is to get an effective group together. Having two separate combat systems and the segregation that will be required to keep things balanced will create more problems than will be solved.
So again, I maintain that the best course of action Cryptic can take is to FIX what is currently not working correctly with the current system, not reinvent it.
And really, when you think it through logically, if we will be able to choose between the two systems, it means that in order for the current system to remain a viable choice, its current technical issues will have to be fixed. So why devote man-hours to developing a SECOND combat system AND fixing the problems with the current one, when they can save time by fixing the current one and then get back to delivering what TRULY keeps people playing: New Content...
Unless they have no real plans of fixing the current system and the new system will address the current issues thus giving us THIS choice:
Continue playing the current buggy ground combat
or
Switch to the new system.
IF that is what they have in mind, There is a third option:
Account Cancellation.
And just like what happened with CoX's revamp, and to a greater degree, SWG's revamps, that is exactly what far more people than Cryptic will like will choose. We've already lost out on so many people who didnt play beyond their 30-day trial when the game launched because it was not what it was PROMISED it would be. We don't need to lose any more simply because Cryptic is so intent on devoting several months laying out, integrating and debugging a new system. I would much rather see them take several months and exclusively focus on developing Klingon content. If they devoted as much time to that as they are planning to devote to reinventing combat, then yes, Klingon content CAN be brought to equal quantity with Federation content. And if they are not willing to do that, then just fix the current bugs and add content.
That is really all SOE had to do with SWG. That is all that Cryptic needs to do with STO.