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Now that the T5 B'rel is here...

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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Alexraptor wrote: »
    Tech Manuals and Encyclopedias have never been considered to be canon. :rolleyes:
    Especially not when Canon contradicts them, and in this case canon states that B'rel class BoP's are large ships, not small.

    Mind pointing out which book says that?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    dorko1 wrote: »
    Besides all of that, excepting the larger neck, the connie model isn't far off from design next to the sovvie. That being said, the connie hull design should be able to perform similarly or at least would not be that bad of a design in the first place else Starfleet obviously would have eliminated the design long, long ago.

    You mean besides the fact that the Sovereign is "more than" twice the size of the Connie? :rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Pasquatic wrote:
    You silly, silly boy. Don't you know you're playing TNG Online, not STO? Don't worry, the Kiddie Horde will be here soon to remind you.


    :confused:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Staran wrote: »
    What? I mean look. If you took the design of a car from the 50's and filled it with todays technology, should it not run circles around a 10 year old car?

    It could if you gave it four wheel steering. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Alexraptor wrote: »
    You mean besides the fact that the Sovereign is "more than" twice the size of the Connie? :rolleyes:

    But you weren't talking hull size, you were talking hull design.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Z3R0B4NG wrote: »
    or let me put it like that:

    D-7 Class at tier 5 killing Vor'Cha's and Negh'Var ?

    it would just be wrong.

    and if you come in here with the *upgrade* argument, i suspect you are fine then if we implant a Galaxy Class Warpcore in your TOS interrior C-Store pack.... and LCARS instead of buttons? no?

    :eek:
    Sounds fine to me... ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    As much as I want a T5 TOS Connie, this isn't a real good argument. The B'rel retrofit was intended, as announced, to be a recreation of the ship from ST VI. Which would make it about the same vintage as the Excelsior class. And we have a T5 Excelsior refit.

    My argument for the T5 TOS Connie is much like the ones above in the thread. Technology gets smaller as it advances, not bigger. Anything you can fit in a T5 Defiant, you can fit in a TOS Connie shell.

    Okay, this too... Just as long as we get the "upgraded" ships. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I'd love to see a Tier5 D7. I don't understand why people who don't want upgrades are ok with the B'rel...that's EXACTLY what it is, a tier 1 ship at endgame. Sure it might have a laughable hull, but it's still effective for hit and run.

    Also for all those in the new beats old argument, why is it that the Nova class is at the same tier as the newer Connie/Vesper tier? The Nova is newer than the Intrepid, by your argument, shouldn't it be able to blast it to smitherines? But then that wouldn't be canon...because the Intrepid destroyed a Nova.

    Starfleet is perfectly capable of putting better technology in older hulls. You can argue for or against this, because personally I hate that the Excelsior is one of, if not the best, top tier cruiser. But so what? If you don't like seeing older ships, this might not be the game for you...there are hundreds of Excelsiors, D'Kyrs, and pretty soon, Ambassadors and Andorian ships flying around the galaxy.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Variety is the spice of life. Lets have more variety. Lets make a T-5 Connie Replica. A ship that has the same design LOOK as the Connie...but double the size and double the crew. that way all the nay sayers can no longer have the arguement that a small ship of that design has no place in the universe. Now the ship is bigger...but looks like the old one. This is after all a FICTIONAL GAME. We can do anything.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Its uncanon and that is that.

    But sure, if Cryptic wants to make a crappy and sloppy game then they are free to add TOS T5 ships galore. :rolleyes:

    STO was a lot better off back when it had only pure 25th century ships.
    But TOS ships as endgame ships is just stupid and dumb and nothing will ever change that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    To be honest, a constitution class isn't strong in any manner of physics. Its spinfly by proportion to all later ST ships. The "neck" probably couldn't survive the torque of the ship just turning around, much less turning around at high speeds. The ship would "fly itself apart".

    Ships of a design similar to the Sovereign, Intrepid, and Luna design can survive, structurally, far more punishment than the constitution would ever dream of.

    You can say all you want how SIF's could compensate, but the design is still not efficient, and weak as hell w/o an SIF.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Alexraptor wrote: »
    STO was a lot better off back when it had only pure 25th century ships.
    But TOS ships as endgame ships is just stupid and dumb and nothing will ever change that.

    Totally agree.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I still hope for a T5 D-7/K'Tinga.. And one for T4, and 2, and 1. :)

    Even better would be if Cryptic designed some new KDF ships following the design style of the D-7... Sorta like FASA did with the B-10, C-8, C-7, D-4, D-10, etc...

    Defunct FASA can not be the only ones permitted to expand upon early TOS Klingon ship designs. Cryptic should be able to come up with similar (but not direct copies) ship designs based upon CBS licensed Klingon assets if they so intended.. Not like they would be sued by CBS. ;)

    Oh well.. Hopefully one day. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Z3R0B4NG wrote: »

    But i don't want to see a Constitution class shooting a Sovereign Class to bits either, that would just be wrong.

    And by that same logic a Galaxy should not be competing with that Sovereign, but look at the mess the kids have made.

    All or nothing. Either the T4 ships must be completely removed from T5, or there is room in T5 for all ship models.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Instead of upgrading all the way to Tier 5/6, I figure you would be allowed to refit 2 Tiers above.

    For example:

    Tier 1 Ships: Tier 1 -> Tier 2 -> Tier 3

    Tier 3 Ships: Tier 3 -> Tier 4 -> Tier 5

    Tier 4 ships: Tier 4 -> Tier 5 -> Tier 6 (Which the current refit Galaxy, Intrepid, Defiant-classes).


    Of course, refits will have limitations where they aren't as good as the other Tiers. For example a Tier 2 Consitution upgraded to Tier 4 wouldn't be able to tank like the Galaxy, but its grace would be the manuverability that the Galaxy lacks.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Pasquatic wrote:
    And by that same logic a Galaxy should not be competing with that Sovereign, but look at the mess the kids have made.

    All or nothing. Either the T4 ships must be completely removed from T5, or there is room in T5 for all ship models.

    Hmm... not sure about that Galaxy vs. Sov comparison... sure the sovy is slightly more modern, but the Galaxy, especially the Battle Section had some serious firepower in TNG.

    I'd rather have a System completely without Tiers and have Ships just beeing Ships with their own Set of Stats and depending what Ship you fly you get fitting asignments from Starfleet and mixed fleets of small and big ships get send to work as teams in persistent open Zones.

    But that ain't the game we're playing here.

    The simple truth is, you can add the newest Energy Shield, the highest Mark X Torpedos and Phasers, but a Constitution Class will never take as much hit's as a Galaxy Class when the Shields are Offline, because it is just smaller, less Hull, less Crew and therefore it needs less Torpedos to destroy then a ship twice the size.

    Not to mention that the newest Phasers and Warpcores would overload the EPS grid and you could pretty much have to replace everything on the inside to even get the new stuff working, and again if these Ships are supposed to be NEW instead of Replicas or mothballed, then why do we get TOS interriors without LCARS and no Galaxy Class Warpcore on the Constitution Class?

    It can't be both.


    But i also get that when i bought my NX-01 that i played on Elite until Cmdr 8 with it because i just wanted to keep the ship as long as possible.
    And yes i was able to kill Romulan Warbirds on Elite... but my Phasers had no effect on their shields and my Photon Torpedos made 1% bleedthrough to Hull, that was pretty much when i upgraded to an Akira Class.

    Of course if that Warbird would have been a Player i would have been Toast, but the AI captains are very predictable in their tactics ;P
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Pasquatic wrote:
    And by that same logic a Galaxy should not be competing with that Sovereign, but look at the mess the kids have made.

    All or nothing. Either the T4 ships must be completely removed from T5, or there is room in T5 for all ship models.

    less than 50 year old ships vs 100-200 year old ships? Riiiiight. :rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Alexraptor wrote: »
    The B'rel was only named "once" in all of Star Trek.
    In the TNG Episodes Rascals, where her size was shown to be a little more than half the size of a Galaxy class starship.

    So no, majority of the smaller BoP's are definitely NOT B'rel class, Regardless of what fandom and soft canon wants to say.

    In DS9 you pretty much always see the smaller version of the bird of prey. No they don't name the class but looking at the size and the model, you figure it out, it's a Brel. And they often fight either against or alongside the defiant. It's pretty much a huge part of the Dominion war, competitive with the defiant, but of course never as good as it or the hero crew.

    In TNG you see more of the larger version. The one we call the KVort, which is more of a cruiser size ship.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Lets get back to the issue at hand. there are those of us who want to fly our iconic ships at end-game. This game was advertised as "you are the captain you choose". Well I for one am not able to make the choice I want to make. I want to fly a T-5 TMP Connie and have it be competitive at end-game. I firmly believe all Iconic ships should be viable at end-game. So lets refit everyone's favorite ship. D-7, NX, Akira, Miranda, (phoenix), Connie. They should all be flyable at the top tier and be competitive in their own way.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Azurian wrote: »
    Instead of upgrading all the way to Tier 5/6, I figure you would be allowed to refit 2 Tiers above.

    For example:

    Tier 1 Ships: Tier 1 -> Tier 2 -> Tier 3

    Tier 3 Ships: Tier 3 -> Tier 4 -> Tier 5

    Tier 4 ships: Tier 4 -> Tier 5 -> Tier 6 (Which the current refit Galaxy, Intrepid, Defiant-classes).


    Of course, refits will have limitations where they aren't as good as the other Tiers. For example a Tier 2 Consitution upgraded to Tier 4 wouldn't be able to tank like the Galaxy, but its grace would be the manuverability that the Galaxy lacks.


    If they are limited then there is no reason to upgrade the ships in the first place. We'd just be right back where we started.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    To be honest, a constitution class isn't strong in any manner of physics. Its spinfly by proportion to all later ST ships. The "neck" probably couldn't survive the torque of the ship just turning around, much less turning around at high speeds. The ship would "fly itself apart".

    Ships of a design similar to the Sovereign, Intrepid, and Luna design can survive, structurally, far more punishment than the constitution would ever dream of.

    You can say all you want how SIF's could compensate, but the design is still not efficient, and weak as hell w/o an SIF.


    That’s why we call it science FICTION!!!! :rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    redheadguy wrote:
    That’s why we call it science FICTION!!!! :rolleyes:

    If it was complete fiction, you wouldn't have the sciece part of the genre name would you? ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Alexraptor wrote: »
    Its uncanon and that is that.

    But sure, if Cryptic wants to make a crappy and sloppy game then they are free to add TOS T5 ships galore. :rolleyes:

    STO was a lot better off back when it had only pure 25th century ships.
    But TOS ships as endgame ships is just stupid and dumb and nothing will ever change that.

    To: Alexraptor, and cavilier210

    Cryptic has already thrown "canon" out the window by putting the Excelsior in at end game and I don’t see you wining about that. Or the BoP I was talking about in my original post.

    Yet your calling me “stupid and dumb” for wanting to have my favorite ship at end game?

    The bottom line is that’s just YOUR opinion and I just happen to disagree with you. That’s fine, I have to problem with that. This topic is 100 and ten percent subjective.

    However, I have to ask that you keep the comments about my I.Q. out of it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    If it was complete fiction, you wouldn't have the sciece part of the genre name would you? ;)

    Really? We have tractor beams and phasers in real life? Tell me where has all of that tech been hiding all this time? The "sciece" part is thrown in to help describe the type of fiction we are discusing, like Zombies have become a seprate genre all their own.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    redheadguy wrote:
    To: Alexraptor, and cavilier210

    Cryptic has already thrown "canon" out the window by putting the Excelsior in at end game and I don’t see you wining about that. Or the BoP I was talking about in my original post.

    Yet your calling me “stupid and dumb” for wanting to have my favorite ship at end game?

    The bottom line is that’s just YOUR opinion and I just happen to disagree with you. That’s fine, I have to problem with that. This topic is 100 and ten percent subjective.

    However, I have to ask that you keep the comments about my I.Q. out of it.

    I never called you stupid and dumb. That's kind of ridiculous of you to say.

    Also, just because the Dev's appear to have tossed canon out the window, it doesn't mean they aren't reasonable or listening to what I, and others, say about the mess of era's this game is.

    The Excelsior is shown in canon to be upgradable fairly easily. Which makes its appearance in T5 not all that odd. The Excelsior was a workhorse of the Dominion War, so I think its far easier to swallow than a connie, or NX T5 ship.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    redheadguy wrote:
    Really? We have tractor beams and phasers in real life? Tell me where has all of that tech been hiding all this time? The "sciece" part is thrown in to help describe the type of fiction we are discusing, like Zombies have become a seprate genre all their own.

    Right.... I take back what I said, I am about to call you dumb :p

    We have hyposprays, forcefields, plasma torches, experimental energy shielding, and theories for faster than light travel. So, ya, I think much of what we have in ST here, has real world counterparts.

    There's even a few theories on a aether that appears to behave like subspace in ST. So, I'm thinking you should look into some of this stuff.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I never called you stupid and dumb. That's kind of ridiculous of you to say.

    Also, just because the Dev's appear to have tossed canon out the window, it doesn't mean they aren't reasonable or listening to what I, and others, say about the mess of era's this game is.

    The Excelsior is shown in canon to be upgradable fairly easily. Which makes its appearance in T5 not all that odd. The Excelsior was a workhorse of the Dominion War, so I think its far easier to swallow than a connie, or NX T5 ship.


    This is a GAME! It does not have to stay 100% canon.

    Also, when Alexraptor called my I.Q. into question you agreed with him so it’s the same to me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    redheadguy wrote:
    This is a GAME! It does not have to stay 100% canon.

    Also, when Alexraptor called my I.Q. into question you agreed with him so it’s the same to me.

    Right.... I quoted a whole post and your going to take it as a personal shot against you.

    I never said 100% canon. If you haven't noticed, ST has a variable definition of canon. I ask for cohesion, sonsistancy, and logic. This hodge podge of 3 eras is annoying.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Right.... I take back what I said, I am about to call you dumb :p

    We have hyposprays, forcefields, plasma torches, experimental energy shielding, and theories for faster than light travel. So, ya, I think much of what we have in ST here, has real world counterparts.

    There's even a few theories on a aether that appears to behave like subspace in ST. So, I'm thinking you should look into some of this stuff.
    :eek:
    Not only have you complety missed my point, your just flaming now. And what I think this game really needs is...

    Chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream with hot fudge and wiped cream on top! :D Oh great, now my sweet tooth is acting up. Gota go take care of it now.

    See ya.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I ask for cohesion, sonsistancy, and logic. This hodge podge of 3 eras is annoying.


    Then why didn't you just SAY that before?
    :rolleyes:
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