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Cloaked Tractor Mines??

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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The challenge is laid down. PvPers settle PvP arguments in PvP. The proof is in the pudding. You guys think mines are nothing and there are lots of easy counters, man up and show us. Put your IGN and handle in here and we'll organise a test match.

    Putting myself forward for the mine-spamming demonstration team: Valentine Fox@Middlemore.

    Haters, put up or shut up.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    ...And...



    So according to your own post they can be countered, and these newbs are losing because their enemies are better and know how to counter these things.

    There's no difference, and thus taking the mines out would have zero effect.

    Is there an actual problem with the tractor mines? Probably (I'd personally say yes), but it's not driving off the newbs. Everything else about PvP already does that.

    To be frank the only way to fix PvP for newbs would be a fundamental change, slowing the combat, making abilities less all-important, removing stacking pretty much entirely (in both abilities and consoles) and basically dumbing it down. Of course, these changes aren't likely to go over well with the established PvP crowd considering that most of the suggestions put forward by them involved wanting faster combat, and things like persistent damage which are just going to make things worse on new players.

    The real problem I see with these new mines is their effect on cloaking, and of course general spam which these don't add to at all (despite being new, and thus the FotM, they don't offer any new opportunities for spam that the old ones didn't), they're merely associated with it. If they fix the issues with cloaking, and put a cap on the amount of "pets" any one player can have (including mines, scorpions, photonics and deployables, all under the same count) then these tractor mines would probably work fine... but if they do crush pets like that the Carrier crowd will mess themselves.

    This game is perception. When i first starting PvPing last march and i was getting my TRIBBLE handed to my by the likes of Blackjac, All of Section 31, irealized I sucked they were using skills and methods I had not thought of. I continued to PvP eventually got better because I learned to pick the right skils and spec into the skills. Now with all the detritus in PvP, tht causes targetting issues and lag the perception is now I didn't get beat by a better player I beat by better gear.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The mines are inherently unbalanced by design.

    A normal Tractor Beam is a Bridge Officer power with a recharge time of 30 and a duration of 15 seconds, and a global cooldown of 20 seconds.

    Tractor Beam Mine Layer deploys 4 mines that can send a tractor beam indefinitely. All they cost is a single weapon slot.
    The old standard "spam" mine to use were Chroniton mines. A single mine has a 30 % chance to apply a 10 second movement debuff on its target. Now we can upgrade to tractor beam mines that grant a 100 % movement debuff. The mine can be entirely undetected until it actually activates a bridge officer power equivalent. That means you cannot prevent getting tractored, which means it has a 100 % chance to slow you to a stop. Then you still have to identify the source of the tractor beam (it could also be a traditional BO power), and to activate counters. (And due to some bugs, some counters do not work even.)

    On a team level scale, tractor beam mines will require adaptation, which is first not necessarily a bad hing, but I argue in this particular case, it absolutely is. The problem is that it requires people relying more on specific counters to mines and tractor beams. This means that overall, the team will be able to generate less damage output. But as many already noted before - healing is currently extremely strong in this game, and against some well coordinated teams, actually bringing enough damage to overcome all the healing is very difficulty (and requires its own level of coordination.) Achieving this type of damage is done via abilities to inflict burst damage. But the "spam control" powers are not burst damage abilities. And the primary source of bursts _and_ spam control are Escorts. And they are hit hardest by tons of Tractor Beams. SO it is less likely that a random group or a coordinated group has a lot of burst damage potential, and it is a also harder for it to bring that potential to bear.

    The scenario might remind us of Carrier spam and the concerns of "Carriers" are okay. It was then still possible to successfully apply spam control powers, for one primary reason was that the fighters were "just" damage - they didn't have a crowd control effect. That is now different. The mines are crowd control weapons and spam in one.
    (And even though many Fleets and PvPers argued that Carriers were fine and that it was possilble to deal with them - which it definitely was - and not just with area effects targeting the spam, also with sufficient single-target damage burst against the Carrier) - they were nerfed.


    I have noticed odd things with the mines - some seen myself, some reported by others:
    • Tractor Beam Mines counters (primary mention was Attack Pattern Omega) not working against the mines.
    • Tractor Beam UI broken (this applies to all Trator Beam types) - result is players don't even get why they are stuck until it is too late.
    • Tractor Beam Mines showing tractoring something unidentifeable and just sitting in space, impossible to attack (beam sound effect and torpedo SFX is playing, but nothing actually happens, you don't even go to red alert)
    • Tractor Beam Mines never despawning, unlike all other mines.

    I found one little tidbit in the last few mission - Cryptic is apparantly able to deactive certain powers on specific maps. (Anyone tried to use Tactical Team during the 4th Romulan Series Episode?)

    So, instead of trying to balance around this power - just ban it from use on all PvP maps. It's probably fine in PvE, as the PvE enemy is barely capable of maneuvering well in the first place, and even if it'S OP there - at lest the PvE enemies won't be bothered by their terrible gameplay experience.

    The same could be done for Scorpion Fighters as well.

    And maybe then we can look into an idea on how to revise mines in the first place so they become less spammy and possibly more strategic weapons.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Middlemore wrote:
    The challenge is laid down. PvPers settle PvP arguments in PvP. The proof is in the pudding. You guys think mines are nothing and there are lots of easy counters, man up and show us. Put your IGN and handle in here and we'll organise a test match.

    Putting myself forward for the mine-spamming demonstration team: Valentine Fox@Middlemore.

    Haters, put up or shut up.

    Young grasshopper I see crickets coming.. :D

    If they man up they will have reasons (excuses) why a premade from OPvP mopped the floor with them.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Middlemore wrote:
    The challenge is laid down. PvPers settle PvP arguments in PvP. The proof is in the pudding. You guys think mines are nothing and there are lots of easy counters, man up and show us. Put your IGN and handle in here and we'll organise a test match.

    Putting myself forward for the mine-spamming demonstration team: Valentine Fox@Middlemore.

    Haters, put up or shut up.

    True story.

    However, add me to that list.

    Praxis/Solarea@MVS5191.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Please I hope you come across these groups or players that have 2-3 mine launchers on autofire and you can't even destroy them fast enough or you spend more time clearing junk instead of shooting at the ACTUAL enemy.

    It's a tactic ... You may not like it but it is definitely a tactic.

    People will adapt as they always do and soon the arguments will be old news.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Lets face it, the united pvp community is small, and full of ego, :eek:
    which doesn't make them a priority target for cryptic.

    While I m somewhat glad to see that many of the L2P crowd finally came around and are able to acknowledge, that the npc spam in pvp is the fuming pile of .... it is. I m also sad. I loved pvp because it was fun, although I m neither a veteran nor incredibly good at it. But I haven't played for weeks it s just not fun anymore. Ifno changes are implemented I won't until my subscription runs out, without extension.

    @Cryptic those pvp veterans that are QQing right now, are what is left in the queues. Many others have left already because of it. It is costing you money. If you don't like the veterans fine, but this affects all of us and not in a good way. :mad:
    The mines are inherently unbalanced by design. [...]


    The scenario might remind us of Carrier spam and the concerns of "Carriers" are okay. It was then still possible to successfully apply spam control powers, for one primary reason was that the fighters were "just" damage - they didn't have a crowd control effect. That is now different. The mines are crowd control weapons and spam in one.
    (And even though many Fleets and PvPers argued that Carriers were fine and that it was possilble to deal with them - which it definitely was - and not just with area effects targeting the spam, also with sufficient single-target damage burst against the Carrier) - they were nerfed..


    Sorry but fighters where never just damage, but also spam. The targeting and lag was/is what people rightfully complain about.
    The same could be done for Scorpion Fighters as well.

    And maybe then we can look into an idea on how to revise mines in the first place so they become less spammy and possibly more strategic weapons

    Correct so lets stop the bias. It was never about ppl being to stupid to throw GW at pets, or use PH against tractors. Lets QQ together because we have a design issue that kills pvp.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    havam wrote:
    Lets face it, the united pvp community is small, and full of ego, :eek:
    which doesn't make them a priority target for cryptic.

    While I m somewhat glad to see that many of the L2P crowd finally came around and are able to acknowledge, that the npc spam in pvp is the fuming pile of .... it is. I m also sad. I loved pvp because it was fun, although I m neither a veteran nor incredibly good at it. But I haven't played for weeks it s just not fun anymore. Ifno changes are implemented I won't until my subscription runs out, without extension.

    @Cryptic those pvp veterans that are QQing right now, are what is left in the queues. Many others have left already because of it. It is costing you money. If you don't like the veterans fine, but this affects all of us and not in a good way. :mad:

    P.S.: I wonder why many KDF elite PvPeers are more vocal about CTMs now, than they have been about pre-nerf carrier pets back in the days ;)

    I find it quite funny that they want to pay attention to the KDF, and still make them have a little more PvP than Starfleet, and yet have the audacity to ruin it with the exploits. No one wants to roll a klink now, so what makes them think people are going to want to roll one with only a few more pve things to do? They're mostly PvP, and snce this ruins PvP, well, the population shrinks that much more.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    This game is perception.

    Being rooted every instant isn't really going to drive away the noobs anymore than being one-shotted by an Alpha Strike and dying in three seconds flat. There are counters for each, but that changes very little. And being one-shotted is infinitely more demoralizing.

    PvP just isn't friendly to the new guy. It's not a welcoming system and PUGing is lousy. And that PUGing will almost always be what "fresh blood" see first when they go looking for a taste to see what it's all about, and yes, it will also be mostly what drives them away (in-game Voice Chat may do some bit of good here by making PUGs more viable, but realistically probably not enough).

    Adding or removing tractor beam mines doesn't change things. The ship has sailed, and until there are major fundamental changes to the system there is never going to be an influx of people as far as PvP is concerned.

    While I do think there are some issues with the Tractor Mine, I just don't see this as one of them. This is an issue with PvP in and of itself.
    Now with all the detritus in PvP, tht causes targetting issues and lag the perception is now I didn't get beat by a better player I beat by better gear.

    Which has nothing to do with this mine in particular, beyond it's current status as FotM. It has to do with PvP in general, and the targeting system the game uses. The Tractor Beam mines don't make more mines than a photon mine launcher. They aren't individually more clutter than each of a Carrier's pets, nor Scorpions. Attacking the tractor mine based on this doesn't address the actual problem. Actually, the Tractor Mines prove less of a problem in this respect since they cloak and don't show when inactive.

    An across the board pet cap is really required, but the majority, especially Carrier captains, will scream "NERF!" and a use a lot of frowny emoticons if that occurs.
    The mines are inherently unbalanced by design.

    A normal Tractor Beam is a Bridge Officer power with a recharge time of 30 and a duration of 15 seconds, and a global cooldown of 20 seconds.

    Tractor Beam Mine Layer deploys 4 mines that can send a tractor beam indefinitely. All they cost is a single weapon slot.

    You can't compare the weapon with the BOff power. You can't one-shot-kill the BOff power. You don't lose a weapon (and thus DPS) for the BOff power.

    If you want to do that, and just look at raw numbers, then you might as well say that Photon Torpedoes are broken because they do more raw DPS than Gravity Well. This is true, but it overlooks the reality of the equation in favour of taking numbers out of context.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Being rooted every instant isn't really going to drive away the noobs anymore than being one-shotted by an Alpha Strike and dying in three seconds flat. There are counters for each, but that changes very little. And being one-shotted is infinitely more demoralizing.

    Do you know what it takes to be one shotted. It isn't hmm press this, and this, and this and kaboom. In today's pvp if you are3 being one shottedone needs to look at ones build and skill allocation. This is where one learns
    PvP just isn't friendly to the new guy. It's not a welcoming system and PUGing is lousy. And that PUGing will almost always be what "fresh blood" see first when they go looking for a taste to see what it's all about, and yes, it will also be mostly what drives them away (in-game Voice Chat may do some bit of good here by making PUGs more viable, but realistically probably not enough).

    PvP right now is very univiting as opposed to 6 months ago when you could be killed LOLfast now it is TRIBBLE the first shot hasn't been fired and I am being hit by mines, photonics, and pets.
    Adding or removing tractor beam mines doesn't change things. The ship has sailed, and until there are major fundamental changes to the system there is never going to be an influx of people as far as PvP is concerned.

    While I do think there are some issues with the Tractor Mine, I just don't see this as one of them. This is an issue with PvP in and of itself.
    I take this as I really don't PvP so really do not care, blah, blah, blah. Correct me if i am wrong.


    Which has nothing to do with this mine in particular, beyond it's current status as FotM. It has to do with PvP in general, and the targeting system the game uses. The Tractor Beam mines don't make more mines than a photon mine launcher. They aren't individually more clutter than each of a Carrier's pets, nor Scorpions. Attacking the tractor mine based on this doesn't address the actual problem. Actually, the Tractor Mines prove less of a problem in this respect since they cloak and don't show when inactive.

    An across the board pet cap is really required, but the majority, especially Carrier captains, will scream "NERF!" and a use a lot of frowny emoticons if that occurs.

    You are right this mine by itself in the grand scheme is not much but it was the straw that broke the camels back. First people cried for more mines and got dispersal patterns, then people cried for carriers and Cryptic said "NO" but here try this instead scorpiona fighters now everyone is a carrier, everyone cried because they wanted to do damage like a tactical bam here comes the nebula and boost to all sci skills.

    They are more clutter regular mines self destruct these do not so once they attempt to snare they are visible more clutter that can only be shot at to destroy.


    You can't compare the weapon with the BOff power. You can't one-shot-kill the BOff power. You don't lose a weapon (and thus DPS) for the BOff power.

    If you want to do that, and just look at raw numbers, then you might as well say that Photon Torpedoes are broken because they do more raw DPS than Gravity Well. This is true, but it overlooks the reality of the equation in favour of taking numbers out of context.

    True but these are more dangerous, because they almost are 100% effective and the few seconds an escort or sci ship is snared they are going to be dead because their defens with be -15. While it takes away straight DPS it adds higher crits and accuracy.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Do you know what it takes to be one shotted. It isn't hmm press this, and this, and this and kaboom. In today's pvp if you are3 being one shottedone needs to look at ones build and skill allocation. This is where one learns

    Which has nothing to do with anything. PvE doesn't require shield resists at all, much less stacking resists. If you want to survive PvP that is required. A newbie isn't going to have or properly use those resists. They are going to die. Quickly. And badly. And often. And that is going to demoralize them. Now they could go back and mull over where they've gone wrong, but they probably won't bother because being blown up in every encounter likely wasn't much fun.

    And those roots tossed out by the mines, those can be countered as well. The newbie isn't going to have the proper hold resists, and likely isn't going to be using them well. They're going to get held. Often. Yeah, that's probably going to demoralize them too. Now they could go back and mull over where they've gone wrong, but they probably won't because being kneecapped in every encounter likely wasn't much fun.

    Either way, people can reevaluate and learn. In neither case are people particularly likely to. Removing the mines doesn't address the problem of PvP being unforgiving, as noted by the fact that it has been pretty barren since launch, while the tractor mines are new.
    I take this as I really don't PvP so really do not care, blah, blah, blah. Correct me if i am wrong.

    Take it for what it is; the reality of the situation. PvP has always been broken to the eyes of a newcomer. It has never been welcoming. Removing tractor mines and dialing back the clock a day won't fix a problem that has existed for over a year.

    The tractor mines have issues, but driving off newbs isn't one of them. PvP does that on it's own. Barring a major overhaul (and in a direction that most PvPers seem to balk at) nothing is really going to fix this. While the tractor mines won't help, they really can't hurt in this respect either, they can simply continue beating the dead horse.
    You are right this mine by itself in the grand scheme is not much but it was the straw that broke the camels back. First people cried for more mines and got dispersal patterns, then people cried for carriers and Cryptic said "NO" but here try this instead scorpiona fighters now everyone is a carrier, everyone cried because they wanted to do damage like a tactical bam here comes the nebula and boost to all sci skills.

    Spam and the user-unfriendly nature of PvP are definitely problems, but the tractor mines didn't cause them. People were complaining about them long before hand, and even if the mines were wiped from existence they still would because although the mines are related to the problem, they're simply one more symptom and not the cause.

    The targeting system is an issue. Ability spam (and stacking) are issues. Cryptic needs to address these core issues; the new mines are incidental.
    They are more clutter regular mines self destruct these do not so once they attempt to snare they are visible more clutter that can only be shot at to destroy.

    They are invisible much of the time, and don't effect targeting while they are. Although they don't detonate on use, they do when shot or effect by any type of damage (including the game's AoEs).

    Barring the S'Kul pets don't detonate and those don't cloak. Barring the Birds-of-Prey they don't cloak and those don't detonate. And the To'Duj and Scorpions don't do either. Other mines don't cloak and effect targeting all of the time they are active, including on approach.

    The Tractor Mines are an issue, but they're merely one of many.
    True but these are more dangerous, because they almost are 100% effective and the few seconds an escort or sci ship is snared they are going to be dead because their defens with be -15. While it takes away straight DPS it adds higher crits and accuracy.

    They are exactly as effective as the BOff power (except they seem to have a lower DPS, or perhaps that's just that my build has changed since I was using the BOff Tractor Beam power), vulnerable to the same Achilles Heels that the typical tractor beams have and then have damage destroying them and lowered DPS on top of that.

    What they are more dangerous than is your standard mine, which isn't surprising since mines are pretty much a joke. An across the board buff to the effect/damage of mines, a cap to the number spawned per-player, and a reduction to the amount of time they can stay spawned, for all mines, would probably be a worthwhile change. Trying to make the tractor beam mines out to be the problem is pretty much not seeing the forest for the trees.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011

    You can't compare the weapon with the BOff power. You can't one-shot-kill the BOff power. You don't lose a weapon (and thus DPS) for the BOff power.

    If you want to do that, and just look at raw numbers, then you might as well say that Photon Torpedoes are broken because they do more raw DPS than Gravity Well. This is true, but it overlooks the reality of the equation in favour of taking numbers out of context.

    I could invite you to a little numbers game where I describe to you how much damage you lose from replacing one weapon slot with a tractor beam mine, for example... Remember, we're not talking about one of those crucial dual heavy cannon weapon slots. We're talking about a single beam or turret that you replace with a mine.

    Would you consider it fair if I could get a Science Team cosnole that gives me an additional Science Team power?
    Or, since we're talking weapon slots,m do you think it would be fair if I could take my 3rd aft weapon slot and replace it with an extra Beam Overload BO skill power?

    And feel free to compare Gravity Well to Photon Torpedoes. Photon Torpedoes do not provide a pull effect. They do not inflict AoE damage. I am not just comparing one dimension "DPS". I am considering the entire suite of effect Tractor Beam Mine grant and other options do not grant.


    Or, to look at the other thing I compared it to - replacing a chroniton mine launcher that creates a chance of merely reducing a target's speed somewhat and is always visible and targetable, vs. something that has a 100 % chance to drop its targets speed for zero for an indefinite amount of time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Seen them now and I think they are a cool device, but I think spam is the issue.... this device encourages more spam.

    Quick fix... mines should not have autofire.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Would you consider it fair if I could get a Science Team cosnole that gives me an additional Science Team power?
    Or, since we're talking weapon slots,m do you think it would be fair if I could take my 3rd aft weapon slot and replace it with an extra Beam Overload BO skill power?

    So you're asking if it's fair to swap a console for a power, which is what we've seen since the introduction of retrofit ships? And also if swapping a rear weapon for Beam Overload is okay? The Phaser Lance comes to mind.

    Swaps between categories have been made since Season Two. This is yet another and while it is flawed, it's only as flawed the spawns in general (and mines in specific) happen to be.
    And feel free to compare Gravity Well to Photon Torpedoes. Photon Torpedoes do not provide a pull effect. They do not inflict AoE damage. I am not just comparing one dimension "DPS". I am considering the entire suite of effect Tractor Beam Mine grant and other options do not grant.

    And the mines blow up instantly from any damage, they aren't directly controlled by the player (you don't choose their target) and they take a weapon slot. So yeah, the torpedoes aren't analogous to Gravity Well in enough ways to make a direct comparison, just like the Tractor Mines aren't analogous enough to the BOff ability for it to be valid there either.
    Or, to look at the other thing I compared it to - replacing a chroniton mine launcher that creates a chance of merely reducing a target's speed somewhat and is always visible and targetable, vs. something that has a 100 % chance to drop its targets speed for zero for an indefinite amount of time.

    Follow it through. I've bluntly said that mines, across the board, need a fix (and spawns in general actually). I'm not saying there isn't a problem, I'm saying the comparison you're trying to make isn't valid.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Middlemore wrote:
    If you're flying a Cruiser in PvP and you actually get a shield facing taken down by an Escort in one pass you're doing it wrong.

    I actually suspect this post was a clever attempt at trolling though. Nobody can possibly be so clueless about how to play, surely?

    Anyway solution to this argument:

    All the carebears/casuals here saying "U ALL QQING THEY EASY TO DEAL WITH", get a 5-man team together of yourselves.

    The PvP Community will get a 5-man team of its best mine-spammers.

    We'll play an Arena challenge match. Then we'll see how well your imaginary "easy to adapt" tactics work, huh?

    Srsly, start putting your names forward for the teams. If you think you're right, put your money where your mouth is. Come face a hardcore mine spamming team, see how you fare with your new tactics. If you're right, the PvPers will shut up.

    Deal?

    I don't count my self amonst the elite (within the community we recognize elite as superior ability not attitude.) but I thnk I could lend a hand in (and, quite frankly, enjoy) educating some of thesebold enough to tell us to L2P.

    Sign me up.
    Meh it sounds more like alot of crying

    You have your chance to make your point (see above). Let's see who ends up crying.
    Matunus wrote:
    Have you tried scrambled sensors I believe it works on the pve ones that the roms fire at ya?

    No, scramble does not work on mines.
    Zutty wrote: »
    LOL! :D

    If you can't handle mines in PvP then you deserve to get your a** handed to you on a plate. :p

    Again, challenged. Let's see whom gets whose TRIBBLE handed to them.
    Middlemore wrote:
    The challenge is laid down. PvPers settle PvP arguments in PvP. The proof is in the pudding. You guys think mines are nothing and there are lots of easy counters, man up and show us. Put your IGN and handle in here and we'll organise a test match.

    Putting myself forward for the mine-spamming demonstration team: Valentine Fox@Middlemore.

    Haters, put up or shut up.

    Add me to your list Middlemore: Zed@tranceaddict
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Really? Scamble sensors does not scramble the mines that fall within the sphere of influence (3 km?).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    i find gravity wells to be very effective area sweepers....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    mvs5191 wrote: »
    It's not crying if a lot of the community is united against something.

    Yeah this is a steaming pile. You are NOT "a lot" of the community. You should rephrase that to be the most vocal but not the majority. Ever since day one the PvP crowd has screamed about abilities, ships, etc. to the point of getting these things completely redone or nerfed. If these changes had been specific to PvP combat only, that would have been one thing but as such, it's been widespread.

    So here we go again, another thing to complain about until it gets nerfed or completely reworked. I just hope the guys at Cryptic ignore this for a change to break the pattern.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Theres nothing wrong with the Cloak Mine, will people just drop it i been wanting it since i first saw it. If the poepl would just get over it land thigure out a tatic like we have for everythign elses theres no issue and i have been hitt by them serval times tonight in PvP personaly its a good tatic so just drop it already

    I agree with those who find that there's nothing wrong with the cloaked-tractor-mines. The counter to this or any new weapon is a new tactic. I have yet to get involved with PvP so I don't have a dog in this fight. I have encountered tractor-mines in some of the missions but I haven't had the problem with them that PvP players are complaining about. It seems to me that those who call for nerffing a ship or a weapon or a power are either lazy or poor players or both.

    I agree with nailpeter83. Generally speaking, whenever I come across a difficult part in the game, whether it's a boss or a particularly difficult puzzle, I'll try to change my tactics when and if I fail to meet its challenge. I'll also check the forum for a discussion of the subject. I look for and I'm thankful when I find a post about how the particular problem was overcome. My point is that there are too many cries for nerffing, especially when balance is not an issue. I'm sure that there are plenty of people who would love to nerff Tom Brady or Drew Breese but that not going to happen. Learn to play the game with the tools given because, after all, the tools are pretty good. Nobody pleases all the people all the time, yet everyone involved with STO wants the audience to play and be happy with the product. STO is bound to upset someone because...it is the nature of the Internet to unleash the harshest criticism against those who provide the content.

    I find that this game unfolds slowly and, with the help of others, reveals itself. It's a good game with room to develop. I'm sure that with continued positive input, STO will thrive.

    To the Devs: please no more nerffing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Having seen cruisers explode in seconds from firepower that my admittedly tanky Recon sci perma tanked(2 TSS, 2 HE, 2 emps) I kinda see Happy's point but I don't agree overall. This probably needs a new thread but maybe we could push for some special series of pvp practice missions to be added with NPCs that have full sets of popular pvp powers, same number as players, same number and types of weapons.

    On topic this new tractor.mines adds some incentive for me to continue VA pvp in favour of lower lvl pvp, it's still annoying but lesser than max.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Myrdden74 wrote:
    Yeah this is a steaming pile. You are NOT "a lot" of the community. You should rephrase that to be the most vocal but not the majority. Ever since day one the PvP crowd has screamed about abilities, ships, etc. to the point of getting these things completely redone or nerfed. If these changes had been specific to PvP combat only, that would have been one thing but as such, it's been widespread.

    So here we go again, another thing to complain about until it gets nerfed or completely reworked. I just hope the guys at Cryptic ignore this for a change to break the pattern.

    Please read the PvP Forums and look at our Headcount thread, you'll find that are a lot of us there. And as you ask for me to rephrase my post, I invite you to reread it. I did not say that we were the majority - I said "a lot of the community."

    And yes, ever since day one, it has been the PvP community that has been calling for change. Why? Because we're the ones that find what's broken. It was the PvP community that brought light to the broken nature of FAW, Tac abilities boosting resistances, and others.

    We have not ONCE called for a change that was unwarranted (when I saw "we", I mean it as a majority, not each and every single individual, obviously). If you feel that we have, I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you, instead of us being branded as "cry babies" looking to get ships and abilities changed to what we feel.

    Also, I'd ask that you not act as if we're the ones that are getting everything we asked catered to. Look at what's happened since launch - the PvE crowd has gained loads of content. We've gotten nothing but queues fixed, that should never been broken in the first place. In fact, we've lost content in the form of a Space Assault gametype and map.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    mvs5191 wrote: »
    Please read the PvP Forums and look at our Headcount thread, you'll find that are a lot of us there. And as you ask for me to rephrase my post, I invite you to reread it. I did not say that we were the majority - I said "a lot of the community."

    And yes, ever since day one, it has been the PvP community that has been calling for change. Why? Because we're the ones that find what's broken. It was the PvP community that brought light to the broken nature of FAW, Tac abilities boosting resistances, and others.

    We have not ONCE called for a change that was unwarranted (when I saw "we", I mean it as a majority, not each and every single individual, obviously). If you feel that we have, I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you, instead of us being branded as "cry babies" looking to get ships and abilities changed to what we feel.

    Also, I'd ask that you not act as if we're the ones that are getting everything we asked catered to. Look at what's happened since launch - the PvE crowd has gained loads of content. We've gotten nothing but queues fixed, that should never been broken in the first place. In fact, we've lost content in the form of a Space Assault gametype and map.

    First of all, I hate seeing someone include a generalization and get whacked for it. Its the internet and anyone with a college education can't say I in their vocabulary and get out alive. So relax a bit, other people don't know that.

    Truth the PvP queues suck to get into for how long it takes to get a match. I just gave up and said hell with it. The only place I like to PvP now is Kerrat. I am an Eve player so I am used to unexpected PvP results. First person that tells me Eve is balanced is due for a reality check. They still need to unnerf and do a rebalance themselves.

    Thing is someone being a bit sarcastic earlier had a great idea. I have an idea how this could be solved. It was mentioned that if PvP skills didn't affect the PvE side then no one would complain except for that group. I could live with a seperate set of PvP skills and weapons. Community suggestions with a cold dev eye would actually make that viable. Of course the points would be gained while doing PvE and for the Klingons it would continue PvP.

    Give the Klingons and Feds new sectors of space Open PvP, Voluntary that if you enter this space that you can get killed by another player. Don't give it PvE of any type and make everything seperate. Kinda like a territory war, but totally seperate from PvE. The other thing to do is make the PvP compelling and find different types of games to play. Capture the flag is a great ground game or steal the bacon. Give the PvP crowd something to make it interesting but not any better than PvE.

    Star Trek is not really an IP that does well with PvP because the genre is about peace and exploration with mixed conflict and resolution. This starts a lot of cannon arguments. God knows any person in STO murders people by the thousands. So why not give PvP a new face that allows people to PvP to do something meaningful.
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