Don't forget that these mines are devastating for cloaked ships and therefore especially for KDF players like myself. They are invisible so they can't be seen and avoided, yet they can somehow see through your cloak and not only imobilize you but at the same time decloak you.
A small fragile BoP relies on its cloak and its speed to survive, this one weapon negates both of those defenses.
As for the spam, let's take a carrier, he launches his ships, he then drops a load of these mines using a dispersal pattern skill, he then launches his scorpion fighters and lastly hits photonic fleet, oh and just for giggles throws in a scramble sensors into the mix, you can see a picture forming here can't you.
Doesn't even need to be a carrier, swap carrier for a ship sporting the MVAM or Hell even one without a pet ability, its still adds up to a whole heap of TRIBBLE floating about the map. And that is without the Transphasic Torpedo launcher equip too and with having only one of these invisible tractorbeam mines launchers equipped, they aren't unique so in theory you could slot 8 of them and surround your self in a cloud of them if you wanted.
Were not happy because yet one more thing is added to help ruin PvP, we need less spam not more, you do realise the P in PvP stands for Player? well all this NPC spam adds nothing to PLAYER verses PLAYER combat, its supposed to be about people pittiing skills against each other, not spamming up the arena as much as possible with npc TRIBBLE and letting it do the work for you.
And Sharkball, how many ships can mount that TBR 3? most ships dont have a lot of sci slots available and usually there already fitted with counters to other abilities already, these mines are a terrible addition to the game and as i said before only add more spam and more frustration.
and let thats were you wrong the if I have mine laying on my ship that means i have a stragy for them and not just putting them were ever i want them. I don;t know how many times ive been in a PvP match were me and my target are just cirling each other trying to line up for a torp run, with these mines i can set them trap my target and get the HY2 or 3 in on thier down shild.
Raging elitism, flimsy arguments about "ruining PvP," and verbatim abuse of talking points that'd make Fox News blush aside, there are valid complaints about the mechanics of these mines that are worth taking under consideration, namely how long they remain on the field, the fact that the tractor beams can run indefinitely, and the ability to detect cloaked ships. They need to despawn a LOT faster than they do, the tractor beam effect should last as long as the ship version AT MOST, and for god's sake the latter issue should be right out.
And I say this as someone who's barely PvPed in ages and loves these mines to death in PvE.
You know... sometimes I have the feeling the devs of (all games, not just STO) do such stuff for fun. Adding something so obviously overpowered, that screws the current pvp mechanics completely and then laughing their asses off from the forum ragewars.
I saw this on WoW too. At the end of the TBC, the before-neglected retribution paladins were so insanely buffed they literally oneshotted absolutely everyone. The forum rage was of epic proportions.
Thematically, the cloaked mines are great, but the last thing PVP needs is more holds, snares, roots, or other ways to slow down gameplay. As an escort pilot I can understand the desire of PVP players to cut down on things that cripple your defense indefensibly, but also as an escort pilot I can see their utility for tackling a target and making sure my attack run deals as much damage as possible.
I can also understand the need to declutter the battlefield, it's really annoying trying to find the spamming ship through the blob of spam he created. I've played some FvK where I couldn't even see an enemy ship because my screen was full of space junk launched by the Klingons.
Personally, I'm going to use them anyway, because I don't fit a tractor beam on my escort normally, and tractor beams don't work on the rear 90 degree arc (precisely where I need it to stall chasing escorts in PVP).
Overall, ambivalent about this issue, but leaning towards "remove them and do something else for the reward" because they're going to become increasingly obnoxious as people figure out they can get free tractor beams and just lay in wait for somebody to trip over them.
You Ruin my gameplay by forcing me to Think!!!
I dont wana Adapt, i wanna Farm Emblems the same way as ever, starting the same buffs over and over and please no change to the game.
Ahh, i Quit STO now this is horrible, i am an Klingon, now the can Force me out o my cloak, AAAAAAHHHH
i dont wana change my Gameplay.
The only thing I got from this thread is quite a few one trick ponies have lost their trick.
Klingon tears sustain me.
You didnt read it very well then.
Oh and can I presume by your closing statement that you agree that these cloaked anticloak tractormines are especially bad for the KDF as it ruins our ability to use our cloak effectively and can't be countered due to the fact they are unseen until they decloak you. That in fact you know this but just don't care?
You Ruin my gameplay by forcing me to Think!!!
I dont wana Adapt, i wanna Farm Emblems the same way as ever, starting the same buffs over and over and please no change to the game.
Ahh, i Quit STO now this is horrible, i am an Klingon, now the can Force me out o my cloak, AAAAAAHHHH
i dont wana change my Gameplay.
So i take it you don;t like the Gravity Wells, or the Nebula Tachyon Detion Grid....ii just wish people would stop complaining you all want something new in game and when something is relase al you do is wine.... its in game, don;t nerf it just leave it alone and learn to adept your tatics to deal with them. Really i find them less troublesome then the ship base tractor beams, at least theses I can get rid of them quicker, or even before they activate.
The main beef about those mines isn't primarily the hold, I can adapt to that even though it's annoying.
But the ultraannoying factors are leftover mines in capture matches. You fly, fly and suddenly you're held and out of cloak with nobody around. Complete waste of bloody time. Plus EVERYONE spams them. *sigh*
So i take it you don;t like the Gravity Wells, or the Nebula Tachyon Detion Grid....ii just wish people would stop complaining you all want something new in game and when something is relase al you do is wine.... its in game, don;t nerf it just leave it alone and learn to adept your tatics to deal with them. Really i find them less troublesome then the ship base tractor beams, at least theses I can get rid of them quicker, or even before they activate.
Those hazardscan be seen and avoided when cloaked, an invisible decloak mine field of Target spam is another matter. Plus only recently the carrier was nerfed to stovokor because of the complaints about Target spam, adding the ability for everyone to create 5 fighters and 5 tractor mine every min or so is a kick in the face to all carrier players (not that I'm one, I've never flown them)
Those tractor beam mines were annoying enough on the Mogai to fight against, now you've ramped up the annoyance and potentially imbalanced-against-escorts problem that they're becoming?
Those tractor beam mines were annoying enough on the Mogai to fight against, now you've ramped up the annoyance and potentially imbalanced-against-escorts problem that they're becoming?
Bad juju, Cryptic, very bad juju.
I have played 3 capture matches now. Could be worse, but as expected, everyone just SPAMS the hell out of them. The screen garbage is insane.
You just eliminated 3 mines. And while your TBR is on its 1m30s cooldown another 115 mines just got laid. Hmmmmm, that CD only needs to be sped up 38x.
You are all missing the bigger picture, you come against a 5man team with all the above and let's see just how effective you are as you are picked you off one-by-one. Its not just the clutter. It's also the lag induced by the multitude of objects being tracked and the inability to effective target your opposition.
As somone that set down and did not just flame i will agree that they do need some work but not so much as to be banned full out or to be heavy nerfed. I would agree that the time the mine out is a bit long and the cooldown could stand to be 10 sec more, but i still stand by my statement that something that takes one Beam fire at will to remove along with tons of other counters is no means a reason for this much flame and trollwagoning.
This thread can be summed up in 3 words:
We fear change.
That's a pretty shallow way of looking at it. So far this series we've had two rewards which have only really served to annoy PvP players. People spam Scorpion fighters and people are now spamming tractor mines.
I don't think anyone would really be complaining if a developer would come forward and explain just *how* Scorpions and Tractor Mines were supposed to fit into the PvP game. These are exactly the kind of game-changers that *NEED* to be tested on Tribble before being thrown live.
This thread can be summed up in 3 words:
We fear change.
Hardly. We just don't like unbalanced elements introduced to the game. Nor game mechanics that are just plain annoying. Imagine there was a new Science Power effect that would make a shrilling, piercing sound. The mechanical effect could even be balanced, but it would still be terribly annoying.
THe mines are worse, they produce a terrible gameplay experience and _are_ unbalanced.
Tractor Beam is a Bridge Officer ability with a certain cooldown. Tractor Beam Mines grant you multiple tractor beam powers at a shorter cooldown. All for one weapon slot. If you look at something like Nagarok's DPS calculator, you'll figure out that at worst you loses something like 10 % damage buff for the equivalence of roughly 4 new Bridge Officer skills.
This thread can be summed up in 3 words:
We fear change.
Exactly, I wonder how many matches some of the people on here complaining have actually played since the release of the mines? Have they even tried new tactics? Have they tried to change thier build a bit? Have they tried varying thier tactics at all? Have they tried anything other than complaining? So you have to change the way you approach engagements now, you have to be much more aware of your surroundings and now "gasp" you actually will have to help out your team mates instead of going for the lone-wolf "Alpha-Strike-Insta-Pop" maneuver. Here's an idea, Try something new, I did and you know what, the mines don't bother me anymore. Quit whining, Improvise, Adapt and Overcome.:mad:
Hardly. We just don't like unbalanced elements introduced to the game. Nor game mechanics that are just plain annoying. Imagine there was a new Science Power effect that would make a shrilling, piercing sound. The mechanical effect could even be balanced, but it would still be terribly annoying.
THe mines are worse, they produce a terrible gameplay experience and _are_ unbalanced.
Tractor Beam is a Bridge Officer ability with a certain cooldown. Tractor Beam Mines grant you multiple tractor beam powers at a shorter cooldown. All for one weapon slot. If you look at something like Nagarok's DPS calculator, you'll figure out that at worst you loses something like 10 % damage buff for the equivalence of roughly 4 new Bridge Officer skills.
can tractor beams skills on a bof be one hit stoped by anyone, no ! . can a mine be one hit killed yes and its about time mines were actually feared.
im not a great pvp person or good as a matter of fact i have a lot to learn but,
i just came out of kerrat and my god it was a screen of squares saying tractor mine, sigh im a fed not a klingon and i enjoy having them alpha strike me when im damaged its a challange to simply survive as long as i can. these mines dont add anything at all, they dont help except to enrage the person who just re-spawned into a wall of mines i wont use them.
At the end of the day its not just pvp people saying it, this FE's rewards (scorpions and tractor mines) seems to have split the community more fiercely than anything else ive seen, lets just scrub these out of pvp maps i want a challange not a i win button :eek:
Raging elitism, flimsy arguments about "ruining PvP," and verbatim abuse of talking points that'd make Fox News blush aside, there are valid complaints about the mechanics of these mines that are worth taking under consideration, namely how long they remain on the field, the fact that the tractor beams can run indefinitely, and the ability to detect cloaked ships. They need to despawn a LOT faster than they do, the tractor beam effect should last as long as the ship version AT MOST, and for god's sake the latter issue should be right out.
And I say this as someone who's barely PvPed in ages and loves these mines to death in PvE.
That is why those of you that are saying that we're just crying don't get it - PvE is a completely different game than PvP. (Not you yourself, since you're understanding what we're saying. That's directed at others.)
But honestly - If there are a lot of veteran PvPers saying that these are a bad idea, then there must be something wrong with them. We don't all "cry" over one thing, we're usually fighting amongst each other.
Exactly, I wonder how many matches some of the people on here complaining have actually played since the release of the mines? Have they even tried new tactics? Have they tried to change thier build a bit? Have they tried varying thier tactics at all? Have they tried anything other than complaining? So you have to change the way you approach engagements now, you have to be much more aware of your surroundings and now "gasp" you actually will have to help out your team mates instead of going for the lone-wolf "Alpha-Strike-Insta-Pop" maneuver. Here's an idea, Try something new, I did and you know what, the mines don't bother me anymore. Quit whining, Improvise, Adapt and Overcome.:mad:
ITT: nobody carebears who only PvP three times a day for emblems, pretending they know something about PvP, while actual PvPers with experience and skill smash their head against the wall.
Cloaked Tractor beam Mines are bad. Real bad. Please remove them. That is all.
exactly, and to those who say complainers just aren't adapting, this is not the point. (even though its silly that a player should have to change their build just for one mission reward item)
The point is that they are very, VERY annoying, they don't add some dynamic new face to pvp or anything like they claim, they are just another layer of irritating spam that contributes nothing to pvp except making it less enjoyable for everyone involved.
Exactly, I wonder how many matches some of the people on here complaining have actually played since the release of the mines? Have they even tried new tactics? Have they tried to change thier build a bit? Have they tried varying thier tactics at all? Have they tried anything other than complaining? So you have to change the way you approach engagements now, you have to be much more aware of your surroundings and now "gasp" you actually will have to help out your team mates instead of going for the lone-wolf "Alpha-Strike-Insta-Pop" maneuver. Here's an idea, Try something new, I did and you know what, the mines don't bother me anymore. Quit whining, Improvise, Adapt and Overcome.:mad:
Sure, here's some examples.
I ran into an Arena with my usual build, to see how these mines worked. I got hit by multiple tractors at once and spent most of the match rooted. Awesome.
So I added Polarize Hull. Even then, with it's 1/3 uptime, I was massively snared.
Hm, ok, I'll try adding PSW as well. Oh wait, PSW's range is 3KM whereas the Tractor's range is 5KM. No dice.
Tractor Repulsors? I'll give it a shot. Darn, it's messing up with my Escort's Alphas and pushing them out of Cannon range. And what's this? The recharge is way too long to deal with this many mines, and half the time the cloaked mines aren't even hit due to all of the other mines, Scorpion Fighters, Fleet Support, Photonic Fleets, and finally player ships.
Gravity Well? Ugh, again, like with PSW, I'll have to make major compromises to my build to fit it in. But I'll give it a shot. Yikes, looks like the radius is too small to get all of the mines littered across the entire map/current fighting zone.
FAW? Well, I only have 2 Tac abilities... dropping either of my current ones is severely doing to diminish my damage output, and I play as Sci DPS. Ok, I'll give it a shot. Drat, there goes a TON of my damage, a lot of my support (bye bye Phaser procs on my targets and Attack Pattern Delta on my allies), and I'm still not able to take out all of the mines.
I should not have to make major compromises to my build to fit in abilities that may or may not be somewhat effective at reducing spam/fighting mines. I would have to fit in Tractor Repulsors (perhaps even 2 copies), PSW, Gravity Well and FAW to combat these new mines, in addition to the current crop of existing mines. That's a complete redo of my build, costing $$$ for a respec, and severely diminishes my ability to heal and support my team. To combat spam. Which isn't even a respectable tactic as it is.
Honestly, did you really think that we didn't try and adapt? That's what those of us in OPvP do; we are constantly finding new builds and tactics. If you have some other insight as to how to deal with them, please share. I'm not trying to be snarky or anything, but seriously - if you know of a good way to deal with them, please let us know. It'd help a lot of people out
Comments
A small fragile BoP relies on its cloak and its speed to survive, this one weapon negates both of those defenses.
As for the spam, let's take a carrier, he launches his ships, he then drops a load of these mines using a dispersal pattern skill, he then launches his scorpion fighters and lastly hits photonic fleet, oh and just for giggles throws in a scramble sensors into the mix, you can see a picture forming here can't you.
Doesn't even need to be a carrier, swap carrier for a ship sporting the MVAM or Hell even one without a pet ability, its still adds up to a whole heap of TRIBBLE floating about the map. And that is without the Transphasic Torpedo launcher equip too and with having only one of these invisible tractorbeam mines launchers equipped, they aren't unique so in theory you could slot 8 of them and surround your self in a cloud of them if you wanted.
and let thats were you wrong the if I have mine laying on my ship that means i have a stragy for them and not just putting them were ever i want them. I don;t know how many times ive been in a PvP match were me and my target are just cirling each other trying to line up for a torp run, with these mines i can set them trap my target and get the HY2 or 3 in on thier down shild.
And I say this as someone who's barely PvPed in ages and loves these mines to death in PvE.
I saw this on WoW too. At the end of the TBC, the before-neglected retribution paladins were so insanely buffed they literally oneshotted absolutely everyone. The forum rage was of epic proportions.
Klingon tears sustain me.
I can also understand the need to declutter the battlefield, it's really annoying trying to find the spamming ship through the blob of spam he created. I've played some FvK where I couldn't even see an enemy ship because my screen was full of space junk launched by the Klingons.
Personally, I'm going to use them anyway, because I don't fit a tractor beam on my escort normally, and tractor beams don't work on the rear 90 degree arc (precisely where I need it to stall chasing escorts in PVP).
Overall, ambivalent about this issue, but leaning towards "remove them and do something else for the reward" because they're going to become increasingly obnoxious as people figure out they can get free tractor beams and just lay in wait for somebody to trip over them.
You Ruin my gameplay by forcing me to Think!!!
I dont wana Adapt, i wanna Farm Emblems the same way as ever, starting the same buffs over and over and please no change to the game.
Ahh, i Quit STO now this is horrible, i am an Klingon, now the can Force me out o my cloak, AAAAAAHHHH
i dont wana change my Gameplay.
/Sarkasm
You didnt read it very well then.
Oh and can I presume by your closing statement that you agree that these cloaked anticloak tractormines are especially bad for the KDF as it ruins our ability to use our cloak effectively and can't be countered due to the fact they are unseen until they decloak you. That in fact you know this but just don't care?
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the [URL=" http://forums.startrekonline.com/announcement.php?f=70&a=2"]Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines[/URL] GMMeeko
But the ultraannoying factors are leftover mines in capture matches. You fly, fly and suddenly you're held and out of cloak with nobody around. Complete waste of bloody time. Plus EVERYONE spams them. *sigh*
Those hazardscan be seen and avoided when cloaked, an invisible decloak mine field of Target spam is another matter. Plus only recently the carrier was nerfed to stovokor because of the complaints about Target spam, adding the ability for everyone to create 5 fighters and 5 tractor mine every min or so is a kick in the face to all carrier players (not that I'm one, I've never flown them)
Bad juju, Cryptic, very bad juju.
I have played 3 capture matches now. Could be worse, but as expected, everyone just SPAMS the hell out of them. The screen garbage is insane.
We fear change.
As somone that set down and did not just flame i will agree that they do need some work but not so much as to be banned full out or to be heavy nerfed. I would agree that the time the mine out is a bit long and the cooldown could stand to be 10 sec more, but i still stand by my statement that something that takes one Beam fire at will to remove along with tons of other counters is no means a reason for this much flame and trollwagoning.
That's a pretty shallow way of looking at it. So far this series we've had two rewards which have only really served to annoy PvP players. People spam Scorpion fighters and people are now spamming tractor mines.
I don't think anyone would really be complaining if a developer would come forward and explain just *how* Scorpions and Tractor Mines were supposed to fit into the PvP game. These are exactly the kind of game-changers that *NEED* to be tested on Tribble before being thrown live.
I Doubt it.
Hardly. We just don't like unbalanced elements introduced to the game. Nor game mechanics that are just plain annoying. Imagine there was a new Science Power effect that would make a shrilling, piercing sound. The mechanical effect could even be balanced, but it would still be terribly annoying.
THe mines are worse, they produce a terrible gameplay experience and _are_ unbalanced.
Tractor Beam is a Bridge Officer ability with a certain cooldown. Tractor Beam Mines grant you multiple tractor beam powers at a shorter cooldown. All for one weapon slot. If you look at something like Nagarok's DPS calculator, you'll figure out that at worst you loses something like 10 % damage buff for the equivalence of roughly 4 new Bridge Officer skills.
Exactly, I wonder how many matches some of the people on here complaining have actually played since the release of the mines? Have they even tried new tactics? Have they tried to change thier build a bit? Have they tried varying thier tactics at all? Have they tried anything other than complaining? So you have to change the way you approach engagements now, you have to be much more aware of your surroundings and now "gasp" you actually will have to help out your team mates instead of going for the lone-wolf "Alpha-Strike-Insta-Pop" maneuver. Here's an idea, Try something new, I did and you know what, the mines don't bother me anymore. Quit whining, Improvise, Adapt and Overcome.:mad:
can tractor beams skills on a bof be one hit stoped by anyone, no ! . can a mine be one hit killed yes and its about time mines were actually feared.
Wwo ! :cool:
In PVP, this mines are too cool xD !
i just came out of kerrat and my god it was a screen of squares saying tractor mine, sigh im a fed not a klingon and i enjoy having them alpha strike me when im damaged its a challange to simply survive as long as i can. these mines dont add anything at all, they dont help except to enrage the person who just re-spawned into a wall of mines i wont use them.
At the end of the day its not just pvp people saying it, this FE's rewards (scorpions and tractor mines) seems to have split the community more fiercely than anything else ive seen, lets just scrub these out of pvp maps i want a challange not a i win button :eek:
That is why those of you that are saying that we're just crying don't get it - PvE is a completely different game than PvP. (Not you yourself, since you're understanding what we're saying. That's directed at others.)
But honestly - If there are a lot of veteran PvPers saying that these are a bad idea, then there must be something wrong with them. We don't all "cry" over one thing, we're usually fighting amongst each other.
ITT: nobody carebears who only PvP three times a day for emblems, pretending they know something about PvP, while actual PvPers with experience and skill smash their head against the wall.
exactly, and to those who say complainers just aren't adapting, this is not the point. (even though its silly that a player should have to change their build just for one mission reward item)
The point is that they are very, VERY annoying, they don't add some dynamic new face to pvp or anything like they claim, they are just another layer of irritating spam that contributes nothing to pvp except making it less enjoyable for everyone involved.
Sure, here's some examples.
I ran into an Arena with my usual build, to see how these mines worked. I got hit by multiple tractors at once and spent most of the match rooted. Awesome.
So I added Polarize Hull. Even then, with it's 1/3 uptime, I was massively snared.
Hm, ok, I'll try adding PSW as well. Oh wait, PSW's range is 3KM whereas the Tractor's range is 5KM. No dice.
Tractor Repulsors? I'll give it a shot. Darn, it's messing up with my Escort's Alphas and pushing them out of Cannon range. And what's this? The recharge is way too long to deal with this many mines, and half the time the cloaked mines aren't even hit due to all of the other mines, Scorpion Fighters, Fleet Support, Photonic Fleets, and finally player ships.
Gravity Well? Ugh, again, like with PSW, I'll have to make major compromises to my build to fit it in. But I'll give it a shot. Yikes, looks like the radius is too small to get all of the mines littered across the entire map/current fighting zone.
FAW? Well, I only have 2 Tac abilities... dropping either of my current ones is severely doing to diminish my damage output, and I play as Sci DPS. Ok, I'll give it a shot. Drat, there goes a TON of my damage, a lot of my support (bye bye Phaser procs on my targets and Attack Pattern Delta on my allies), and I'm still not able to take out all of the mines.
I should not have to make major compromises to my build to fit in abilities that may or may not be somewhat effective at reducing spam/fighting mines. I would have to fit in Tractor Repulsors (perhaps even 2 copies), PSW, Gravity Well and FAW to combat these new mines, in addition to the current crop of existing mines. That's a complete redo of my build, costing $$$ for a respec, and severely diminishes my ability to heal and support my team. To combat spam. Which isn't even a respectable tactic as it is.
Honestly, did you really think that we didn't try and adapt? That's what those of us in OPvP do; we are constantly finding new builds and tactics. If you have some other insight as to how to deal with them, please share. I'm not trying to be snarky or anything, but seriously - if you know of a good way to deal with them, please let us know. It'd help a lot of people out