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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    mvs5191 wrote: »
    Far be it from saying that those of us in OPvP are the de facto speakers of the PvP community, but we do represent a vast majority of it. And the vast majority are against these mines. And what these mines mean.

    Wow... please speak for yourself, 20-30 Forum accounts crying over a new game mechanic isn't the majority.
    This thead isn't even near to an epic thread such as preorders in c-store or the galaxy-X (and countless others) it's just a s storm in the waterglass.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    These will turn PvP bottom feeders in courageous loudmouths. You are starting to see it here on these forums. I do not claim to be uber pvp and I may not see eye to eye on everything that some of the really elite (use skills) pvpers think or believe but the threads about these mines sure have brought the bottom feeders out. i know some of them see an opportunity to try an slap down some of the well known names of PvP because they probably were slapped down by those same names early in their gaming experience.

    To those that say there are counters, you are right but those counters are not up indefinite these mines are until they are destroyed. Of course the only way to destroy said mine is to be immune or get caught. Either way eventually you will get snared.

    To all those in favor of blasting these into the nearest sun please let me know and I will get the rest of LaFamilia to back you also.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Valenn wrote: »
    Wow... please speak for yourself, 20-30 Forum accounts crying over a new game mechanic isn't the majority.
    This thead isn't even near to an epic thread such as preorders in c-store or the galaxy-X (and countless others) it's just a s storm in the waterglass.

    OPVP basically *is* the PvP community. And there are many, many more people there who are not active on the forums at all.

    As for our "epic thread", it got stealth moved, locked, and in general nipped in the bud. Otherwise that would be going on 30 pages by now. The PvP community is more united in this endeavor than we have been for anything else. In fact, we are usually rather splintered. We aren't going to shut up about this until things get changed or PvP dies because of it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Whats the word from Cryptic on this? Have they even acknowledged this criticism of the game. I have not even seen the new mines yet, but it has been suggested previously in these forums that the spam and spam-snares were getting out of control. I thought they went over board when we got the scorpian fighters. Now this? Like I say, I have not even been in game since the new episode.... Whay say you Cryptic?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Valenn wrote: »
    Wow... please speak for yourself, 20-30 Forum accounts crying over a new game mechanic isn't the majority.
    This thead isn't even near to an epic thread such as preorders in c-store or the galaxy-X (and countless others) it's just a s storm in the waterglass.


    That is at least how many from my fleet that said they wanted it gone and that is just today I am sure the number will triple if not quadruple by next week.


    Whether PvE'rs/RPers realize this or not not everyone plays this game for mindless PvE grind and PvP is the only thing in this game that actually gives you a good gauge of where you are against REAL people not some psuedo AI that cryptic gives its NPCs.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    hurleybird wrote: »
    OPVP basically *is* the PvP community. And there are many, many more people there who are not active on the forums at all.

    As for our "epic thread", it got stealth moved, locked, and in general nipped in the bud. Otherwise that would be going on 30 pages by now. The PvP community is more united in this endeavor than we have been for anything else. In fact, we are usually rather splintered. We aren't going to shut up about this until things get changed or PvP dies because of it.

    QFT!

    10/Char
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Tractor mines are not overpowered. They can be countered in many ways.


    But having to counter mines is not the elite pvper's favorite thing to do. It's not convenient, it takes some quick thinking in the heat of battle, it introduces an unexpected component. So it makes sense that people will complain. They have to do things differently, choose different priorities in battle. But in the end, tractor mines won't be an overpowering win-all button. Any initial spam will subside. So please don't complain on the basis of 'there are disadvantages to changing my strategy and build to account for mines'. There are disadvantages to countering any opposing strategy, and you already do it fine for BOff powers. Just think for a bit and change up tactics. Soon you won't even notice the tractor mines are there, you'll just be blasting them out of habit.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    sharkball wrote: »
    two things: first of all, cryptic gave everyone a great hard counter to these mines: a free Sci BOFF with TBR 3... tractor beam repulsors is the BEST anti-spam ability in the game.

    Also... if everyone runs these things... that's like 1/8 less DPS on the field... should make it easier to heal those escorts when they can't move. (and yeah OBTW cryptic also gave everyone a free copy of TSS: 3 for your healing pleasure)

    For you whiners: Think. Then Play. Then Adapt. Then Post.

    You are a real smart one aren't you ? Both skills are useless for any given escort or cruiser because guess what they don't have an LTC / CMD Science Officer Slot. :rolleyes:

    Speaking about adapting before posting, maybe it should be thinking before posting...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    DenizenVI wrote:
    Tractor mines are not overpowered. They can be countered in many ways.


    But having to counter mines is not the elite pvper's favorite thing to do. It's not convenient, it takes some quick thinking in the heat of battle, it introduces an unexpected component. So it makes sense that people will complain. They have to do things differently, choose different priorities in battle. But in the end, tractor mines won't be an overpowering win-all button. Any initial spam will subside. So please don't complain on the basis of 'there are disadvantages to changing my strategy and build to account for mines'. There are disadvantages to countering any opposing strategy, and you already do it fine for BOff powers. Just think for a bit and change up tactics. Soon you won't even notice the tractor mines are there, you'll just be blasting them out of habit.


    Unfortunately many of us "elite" don't care about it because it is an "inconvenience" to use we care because this is another reason among a mountain of them that will keep a new PvPer turned off from the experience. PvP needs an influx from the community and things like this will horrible cripple potential new blood to the PvP community.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    These will turn PvP bottom feeders in courageous loudmouths. \

    Calling people bottom-feeders is just encouraging the cycle of elitism that leads to this sort of conflict. We need to all chill out and remember we're all players who enjoy this game. Turning this into a campaign to impose the will of a group of players over the others is the wrong strategy. Forums are for feedback. Some like the mines, others don't. And if Cryptic agrees with one side over the other it's nothing to be up in arms about.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Sure, you know what you are talking about. Let's review TBR :

    Target: Foe (3 max)
    System: Tractor
    Ability Type: Repel
    Activation: 0.5 sec
    Range: 5km Sphere

    You just eliminated 3 mines. And while your TBR is on its 1m30s cooldown another 115 mines just got laid. Hmmmmm, that CD only needs to be sped up 38x.

    You are all missing the bigger picture, you come against a 5man team with all the above and let's see just how effective you are as you are picked you off one-by-one. Its not just the clutter. It's also the lag induced by the multitude of objects being tracked and the inability to effective target your opposition.

    Ah, yes, thank you for failing TBR 101. It only fires at 3 targets at any one point. Should any of those targets become invalid or destroyed, it immediately switches to a new target. In 10 seconds, I can clear an entire transphasic cluster torp field. Correction, I ~HAVE~ cleared one. With TBR II, not even III. I've watched entire swarms of fighters being blown away by it, seeing as the damage bypasses shields. It's an annoyance to larger ships and player ships, but utterly devestating to anything escort sized or smaller.

    Ever punted a Defiant across the map before? I have. It's FUN.

    Oh, and before everyone forgets, TBR has an LT. level version as well, along with Tyken's Rift, and GRAVITY WELL! All utterly demolish mines and pets. Or, for cruisers, you can take EWP, or for escorts, FAW III. Any of which will make small easily harmed things GO AWAY! Oh, the fun of making a pet spammer cry as I rip through his stuff, then lock him down for my team-mates to kill....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Ah, yes, thank you for failing TBR 101. It only fires at 3 targets at any one point. Should any of those targets become invalid or destroyed, it immediately switches to a new target. In 10 seconds, I can clear an entire transphasic cluster torp field. Correction, I ~HAVE~ cleared one. With TBR II, not even III. I've watched entire swarms of fighters being blown away by it, seeing as the damage bypasses shields. It's an annoyance to larger ships and player ships, but utterly devestating to anything escort sized or smaller.

    Ever punted a Defiant across the map before? I have. It's FUN.


    What good is TBR against targets you can't see.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    sharkball wrote: »
    two things: first of all, cryptic gave everyone a great hard counter to these mines: a free Sci BOFF with TBR 3... tractor beam repulsors is the BEST anti-spam ability in the game.

    Also... if everyone runs these things... that's like 1/8 less DPS on the field... should make it easier to heal those escorts when they can't move. (and yeah OBTW cryptic also gave everyone a free copy of TSS: 3 for your healing pleasure)

    For you whiners: Think. Then Play. Then Adapt. Then Post.

    TBR3 is useless unless you run a sci ship.

    The mine is unbalanced right now it lasts for too long.

    1/8 dps less true but a 1min tractor beam lets you fire on one shield facing so who cares if you lose one gun.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    What good is TBR against targets you can't see.

    TBR autotargets the closest objects.

    TBR once again, has a LT level science skill, meaning ANY ship, Captain or above, can use it, the same as Tyken's Rift, or Gravity well, all three of which don't care if you're cloaked or not.

    Or, once again, EWP, or FAW (or for that matter, TRANSPHASIC CLUSTER TORP!), all of which will handily make these problems go away.

    Please do a minor amount of research, before you claim things.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    sharkball wrote: »
    two things: first of all, cryptic gave everyone a great hard counter to these mines: a free Sci BOFF with TBR 3... tractor beam repulsors is the BEST anti-spam ability in the game.

    Also... if everyone runs these things... that's like 1/8 less DPS on the field... should make it easier to heal those escorts when they can't move. (and yeah OBTW cryptic also gave everyone a free copy of TSS: 3 for your healing pleasure)

    For you whiners: Think. Then Play. Then Adapt. Then Post.


    Please go play some real PvP when you are in standing still damage increases exponentially as your defense falls when you defense falls crit chance and severity go up so a stationary escort can be gone with one HYT torpedo crit
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The thought that the PvP community 'selfishly' doesn't want these changes because we don't want to 'adapt' is preposterous.

    There have been many changes in STO, big and small. For all of these changes there have been people in the PvP community who have supported the changes, and others who have opposed them, often with violent arguments between members. The fact that we have converged and formed a consensus on this matter speaks volumes. Above all, PvPers want PvP to flourish and be healthy. We want it to be fun, competitive, and intellectually engaging. We already know how to use the mines, and how to best counter them. For PvErs and "casual PvPers" to think that they know better is arrogant in the extreme and rather silly.

    We want these mines eliminated because they will strangle PvP, make it even more uninviting for newcomers, limit build and team variety, and make things overall much less fun. People who suck at PvP may hold a degree of malice for us simply because they hold a grudge against the people who kick their assess, but guess what? We're the good guys. We aren't selfish. We want what's best for everyone. Believe me when I say that you don't want to see what a premade team based around deploying a high volume of tractor mines will be able to do to you, and that all of your genius ideas about how to counter tractor mines will go out the window at that time. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    TBR autotargets the closest objects.

    TBR once again, has a LT level science skill, meaning ANY ship, Captain or above, can use it, the same as Tyken's Rift, or Gravity well, all three of which don't care if you're cloaked or not.

    Or, once again, EWP, or FAW (or for that matter, TRANSPHASIC CLUSTER TORP!), all of which will handily make these problems go away.

    Please do a minor amount of research, before you claim things.

    Most of which is based on if you can actually see them. If TBR can hit cloaked anything then the power itself needs to be looked at but that is a different story.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Mines go after anything nearby, cloaked or not. Tykens Rift hits anything within a 6km diameter sphere, as well as Grav Well. EWP doesn't care if you have a target or not, and auto-hits anything within it. TBR hits any momentary signature, and hits it with enough force to kill anything short of a starship in under 2 seconds.

    Not.
    A.
    Concern.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    *snip* reading error
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    DenizenVI wrote:
    Tractor mines are not overpowered. They can be countered in many ways.


    But having to counter mines is not the elite pvper's favorite thing to do. It's not convenient, it takes some quick thinking in the heat of battle, it introduces an unexpected component. So it makes sense that people will complain. They have to do things differently, choose different priorities in battle. But in the end, tractor mines won't be an overpowering win-all button. Any initial spam will subside. So please don't complain on the basis of 'there are disadvantages to changing my strategy and build to account for mines'. There are disadvantages to countering any opposing strategy, and you already do it fine for BOff powers. Just think for a bit and change up tactics. Soon you won't even notice the tractor mines are there, you'll just be blasting them out of habit.

    I'm not paying any more money to respec, & I only pvp, so it'll take me a month of playing in pvp to get enough honor to respec so i can sweep mines (what fun) when i'm already paying money to play in the first place.Sounds logical to me.
    I want to pit my skills against players, thats what i play for & thats what i pay my subscription fee for.I will not pay extra so i can fight minespam, & maybe eventually get a shot at an opposing player, with whatever boff abilites that i have left after setting myself up to be a minesweeper/ antiscorpion ship.Also, as most of the effective antispam abilities are sci skills, i guess my only 3 choices too do this are the BoP, (which gets uncloaked by invisible mines now) & the Gorn monstrosity that no one plays,cuz it sucks, & the carrier, which was just nerfed hard because of the spam it put out.(Irony much?) The other klingon ships only have a LT sci Boff.Feds have plenty of sci ships. We don't .This is another Klingon nerf in all but name. the tac AOE attacks don't work untill you have a target to shoot at. You can't use CSV or torpedo spread untill you're already caught in the tractor beam, which can detect a Klingon cloak, but Klingons have nothing to detect a cloak.
    The PVP community Isn't whining about something new, that we cant handle, we are trying to explain that the fun factor in PVP was fading fast before the tractor mines were released, The release of this item in it's current form sucks even more of the fun out of it.
    Easy fix, make it consumable, give it 50 uses. Make it 1 per player. do not give it as a reward for repeating the mission. or make the beam so it only affects npc's. that way its still awesome for PVE or anticarrier duties. (although I doubt that last ones doable)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    just as i have been saying all along.. mines should be strategically place-able, one-by-one... each type should have its own deployment timer to keep up with balancing
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The issue is not that they can't be countered, it's that they mire the game in yet another barrage of holds.

    Ok, imagine this. You're flying against 5 Federation ships. Each has one of these devices. One pops out 5 mines. You use Fire At Will, but it doesn't target the other 20 of the mines the OTHER four ships popped out.

    Sure, you'll get some of them, and eventually you can shoot down the others, but by then you've been sitting still for several minutes. What fun.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Valenn wrote: »
    Yep, but using other tactics than hit-and-run seems to ruin the game for some people and makes the game and "pvp experience" "less fun".

    /sarcasm
    And it proves that the old tactic of mewling and crying will still work.

    You *do* realize that the hit-and-run tactic you're mocking is the only real defense for Tac Escort Retrofit... right?

    Then again, you wouldn't have been so annoyingly sarcastic with a hint of "holier-than-thou" mixed in for good measure, would you?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    i dont see the proplem with them learn and adapt is the answer here, shoot the things there softer then butter and if someone your fighting has them equiped then bonus cos that means they have one less dps weapon to fire at you.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Geoduck360 wrote:
    You'd think Beam:FAW and Cannon:SV would come in handy now.

    You either have not run into a 5 man minespamming premade with 4 mine launcher equipped on each of their ships, or you're part of the mine spamming squad. Not sure which yet, but your statement appears to be founded on ignorance of the issue at hand.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I thik it was very bad idea to give these tractor beam mines to playes. Not good in pvp. Poor klingons can't cloak :(
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    sharkball wrote: »
    two things: first of all, cryptic gave everyone a great hard counter to these mines: a free Sci BOFF with TBR 3... tractor beam repulsors is the BEST anti-spam ability in the game.

    Also... if everyone runs these things... that's like 1/8 less DPS on the field... should make it easier to heal those escorts when they can't move. (and yeah OBTW cryptic also gave everyone a free copy of TSS: 3 for your healing pleasure)

    For you whiners: Think. Then Play. Then Adapt. Then Post.

    Two things: None of my ships have a commander sci slot, so, Tractor Beam Repulsors III is exactly as useful to me as, say, Unicorn Magical Rainbow Dust III. I suppose I could slot TBR I, but then I'd have to give up a Polarize Hull, so that's a wash at best.

    Second, the loss of DPS vs the one turret, beam array or (more likely) Chroniton mine launcher per ship that these will replace is utterly irrelevant compared to the dps advantage gained by firing at a target that has gone from 115% defense to -15% defense for sitting still.

    I'm willing to 'adapt' to a world where I have the length of my Polarize Hull or AP:O to get in, do my damage, and get out. The adaptation will be that I will only commit to an engagement when I know I can get out if I need to, and thus I will spend more time in the 'run' part of hit and run, and the result will be that my opponents spend more time either sitting in a minefield doing nothing, or vainly trying to run me down. Either way, neither of us is having as much fun as we would if I didn't have to worry about running into invisible tractor beam holds.

    As for the other so-called counters: FAWIII is a TERRIBLE choice for me, since I only run one beam array rear and a dual beam bank fore - With the changes coming, FAW will let me utterly obliterate... two mines at a time. Out of who knows how many? Sure, after a few seconds, it will clear the mines. Meanwhile, I've been sitting still for a few seconds, which likely means I'm dead (remember, -15% defense). Even FAW I, which isn't using up a precious Lt. Commander power, isn't worth (to me) slotting to deal with spam, since I don't want to run enough beams to make it really effective.

    Cannon Scatter Volley, on the other hand, forces me to give up a more useful power AND has a limited enough AOE that I'm not that much better off with it than I would be if I was trying to manually target each mine, and let's not forget that if I'm also sensor scrambled (which I will be, against a competent team), both FAW and CSV can become worse than useless. Not even because they damage team-mates (although that's annoying), but because there's even LESS chance that the targets I need to clear will be hit.

    But lets say I'm wrong about all that - lets say those counters really do work (or can be made to work) - even then, what people are saying to me is that I should have to COMPLETELY re-fit my BOFF skills, so that I can deal with ONE piece of equipment. In essence, my pvp experience would be centered around how well (or poorly) my new power selections dealt with tractor mines. That seems lame to me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    ... which likely means I'm dead ...

    I trimmed out the summary of the PVP side of this entire ridiculous thread.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Mojo wrote: »
    The issue is not that they can't be countered, it's that they mire the game in yet another barrage of holds.

    Ok, imagine this. You're flying against 5 Federation ships. Each has one of these devices. One pops out 5 mines. You use Fire At Will, but it doesn't target the other 20 of the mines the OTHER four ships popped out.

    Sure, you'll get some of them, and eventually you can shoot down the others, but by then you've been sitting still for several minutes. What fun.

    I should also say, I don't PvP but even I can see how these things can and will cripple what little PvP there is. Yet more short sightedness from the development team.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Don'r forget those mines are not unique, you can have 4 on your ship, then throw in 4 breen torps up front. add some dispersal patterns for the mines. and spam away,

    Its time to remove all holds, roots, cc from the game entirely. They don't belong into Trek.

    Instead we get more and more of them all the time.
    Plus other changes make them worse all the time.
    standing still lowers your defense significantly now.
    FAW is getting changed away from the full hemisphere random firing.

    Carrier pets get nerfed to reduce spam, yet
    now everyone is a little carrier with the scorpions.
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