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STOP HATING KLINGONS - a different kind of 'rage' post!

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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I look forward to you reviewing my post with my opinions on it. Thank you.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    hurleybird wrote: »
    In your case, we target your because you are Valentine Fox. That's what paints a bullseye on you. Although obviously lack of cloak doesn't help. Good teams are aware of their non-cloaking escorts and are quick to heal them. In some cases knowing that damage will most likely be focused in one place is a good thing. Admittedly, that is only ever really beneficial when there is only one non-cloaking escort.

    Alot of the time, it doesn't matter how much healing one does, when either 5 BoP's or 5 raptors decloak at the same time and alpha one target. That target generally dies too fast for anyone to heal him.

    hurleybird wrote: »
    Again, MVAM does more than just make you faster and squishier. But it's not MVAM I have a big beef with, it's the BO arrangement on the ship. This is coming from a BoP pilot who tries to avoid running and cloaking if at all possible after the battle is engaged. If this ship was available on Klingon side I would switch to it in a heartbeat.

    perhaps, but until MVAM is released, we don't know exactly what it will do. my guess is that it will be mostly eve candy, with a bit of a damage and turn rate buff offset by weaker shields and hull

    simple solution to the MVAM....alpha the prometheus
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    KazumaKat wrote:
    wait wait wait, since when did the MVAM console turn into a full ship?

    (the rest of the whine, whilst only viewed from the fed side, sounds about right to me, so I cannot offer input.)

    Right here
    StormShade wrote:
    Hey gang,

    I want to jump in here on the cost, and implementation, concerns some of you are having.

    The cost of this new Refit Prometheus Class Vessel is set due to the amount of work that went into creating it. Adding MVAM capabilities to the Prometheus, regardless of the form it takes (Console, new ship -1 console, or new ship with console). The development team has spent just as much time creating this functionality, if not more time, than they have on working on any other ship which has come out to date.

    This has been no small undertaking for them. As such, we believe that this is worth the cost of 500 in-game emblems, or 1200 Atari Tokens. We have also listened to your feedback when you said that a console alone was not worth the cost of this functionality. For this reason we have added the actual ship to the purchase as well. This made additional sense for us as the ship itself is still a true refit, and has undergone numerous changes that are less visible to you all.

    Naturally, we're still listening to your feedback. :D As Salami posted earlier, we're already looking through this thread and attacking various issues you've all discovered in order to continue to improve the Prometheus.

    Please keep posting, and we'll keep responding to your feedback.

    Thanks,

    Stormshade

    and Here
    Ok, so here are some changes we are working on for the new Multi-Vector Advanced Escort. Most should be on Tribble by the weekend:
    • Recharge time is still 10 minutes, but set cooldown will be 5 minutes. Note, set cooldown starts as soon as you activate one of the 3 powers, so you effectively always have access to a MVAM power within 5 minutes, just not always the same one.
    • Changed Boff seating on Multi-Vector Advanced Escort to (you will need to acquire a new Multi-Vector Advanced Escort to see these Boff seat changes):
      • En Tact
      • Lt Tact
      • Cm Tact
      • Lt Eng
      • Lt Cm Sci
    • The Multi -Vector Assault Module can also be slotted into the Advanced Escort - in case you don’t like the above BOff configuration.
    • Reduced the amount of HP and Shield health you lose when entering MVAM.
    • Reduced HP and Shield on Pets - to compensate for the added HP and Shield to yourself, and also to make the pets more desirable targets in PvP.
    • When you enter MVAM, any ship targeting you will lose targeting on your for a brief moment, forcing them to find and reselect your ship. Additionally, your pets will not inherit your ship name in the HUD, to further confuse your foes in PvP (its not perfect. For instance, your pets don’t display our captain's name, but we are working on making it better).
    • MVAM no longer disengages when you activate Mask Energy Signature or Ramming Speed.
    • When in MVAM, and one of your other MVAM powers become available, you will not be able to activate the other until you deactivate the first. This will prevent and ugly/weird graphical issues of your ship separating while it is still recombining.
    • Fixed/Updated some tooltips for MVAM powers and item.

    To make it easier for you, I colored the relevant part of these two quoted posts in red. As you can see, yes, there is a full blown ship now, not just a console to slap into your old ship.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Monthar, that is awesome, thank you very much.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    [QUOTE=Monthar
    To make it easier for you, I colored the relevant part of these two quoted posts in red. As you can see, yes, there is a full blown ship now, not just a console to slap into your old ship.[/QUOTE]

    Didn't know that. Thank you.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    hurleybird wrote: »
    And you also get pets that pop attack patterns. Being able to pick which piece you command helps with variety as well as confusing the enemy.

    Effectively the only useful extra Attack Pattern you're getting is Beta, assuming you're not piloting that lower-rear hull section yourself. The APA section is nigh-on useless, since it's buffing a terrible damage output of a couple of phaser beams and photons. And the APD section is only going to be useful if your target chooses to shoot at it - which an intelligent player will learn to avoid.

    So pretty much, it's just a free APB. And as nice as I have to admit that is, it's hardly a major advantage, given the severe diminishing returns on hull resistance debuffs (and the greater importance of Shield Resistances over Hull in the wider scope of things).
    hurleybird wrote: »
    In your case, we target your because you are Valentine Fox. That's what paints a bullseye on you. Although obviously lack of cloak doesn't help.

    Hehe, I'll choose to take this as a compliment ;-) But I think we can both agree that regardless of player or team, any Fed Escort jockey not flying a Def-R is the equivalent of that scene in Die Hard With a Vengeance where Bruce Willis walks naked through Harlem with a sign around him ... :P
    hurleybird wrote: »
    Again, MVAM does more than just make you faster and squishier. But it's not MVAM I have a big beef with, it's the BO arrangement on the ship. This is coming from a BoP pilot who tries to avoid running and cloaking if at all possible after the battle is engaged. If this ship was available on Klingon side I would switch to it in a heartbeat.

    It is available - it's called the Hegh'ta. ;-)

    Alright, I realise that's not entirely true, you can split hairs about console and weapon slots (although I'd probably argue with you about 1 rear slot really mattering that much on an Escort. Whoopty-doo, one less turret to drain weapon power). But it's the BOff arrangements you pointed out, and so let's be honest - it's all really about the combination of a Commander Tactical with Lt. Cmdr. Science. You get to do that - Feds don't (and still won't be able to if you get your way). That, to me, is unfair.

    And as I said before, and I do hate to come around to a circular argument, but this is really the crux of it when you get down to it: that combination of a primary Cmdr slot with a secondary Lt. Cmdr. slot ... with the advent of the Excelsior and Nebula, this type of layout is now available to everybody except Fed Escorts.

    It's simply a glaring injustice. There are only two real, fair options: remove/alter the Excelsior and Nebula, or match them with a similarly-minded Escort.

    Cryptic have gone for the latter ... and yes, as you say, it will now mean that Feds are able to set up ships in the exact same ways that Klingons can. That seems pretty damned fair to me - why should Klinks have access to incredibly powerful BOff combinations, and Feds be denied their equivalents?

    You say the problem is that those Fed equivalents are better than their counterparts on the Klink side. In some cases I agree with you, and I'll support any push for the appropriate Klink ships to be buffed appropriately.

    But in the case of the MVAM Prometheus, I think it looks pretty balanced as currently proposed, compared to its equivalent, the T5 BoP. Of course that's on paper. If practical experience shows it to in fact be OP, then I'd say nerf the MVAM capability and/or shield/hull to match the BoP. Or buff the BoP a bit to match it.

    You just can't get away from the fact though, that we need an Escort with a Lt. Cmdr. Eng or Sci station for the sake of fairness. If fairness also dictates Klinks receiving some buffs too - then let them have buffs, I say.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Phibrizzo wrote: »
    Firstly Hurley, I will state that while your points may be valid, you may be biased yourself. I'll explain.

    Klingon players, having to rely WAY MORE on pvp to level up, become WAY BETTER in terms out skill in pvp. They support each other better, they work better as a team, than Fed players do. This leads to massive imbalances in pvp combat. When Fed players are consistently being slaughtered 15-0 or at best 15-2, it's not fun. Alot of us play this game to have fun. I speak from experience when I say the best matches are the ones that end 15-13 or even 15-14. Even if my team lost. I would rather play a close match than a slaughter match, regardless whether I win or lose. But that doesn't happen much anymore.

    Most Fed players are sick and tired of being slaughtered like that, so if we do pvp, it's not that often.

    Aren't these the main reasons FvF PvP was added way back when? So fed players could queue up against each other to work out their tactics and teamwork. The basis of this in the canon was the TNG War Games episode.

    As for the stuff I clipped from this quote, if more folks would do the FvF PvP and set-up their builds for it, the Cruisers & Science vessels can match those healing numbers. With the Scorpion fighters Photonic fleets, BFAW, Photonic Shockwave and several other skills, the carrier's fighters are easily dealt with. I know this for a fact, because I have PvPed from both sides and had builds set-up specifically to deal with carriers on both sides.

    Also, the equipment you mentioned isn't good enough, specifically the uncommon items. You need to upgrade those to rare or very rare. This is where the crafting system will help. Considering how much easier it is for Feds to gather enough data samples, due primarily to more exploration sectors, so less overlap in them, and the data scan missions that go real quick and give 5 anomalies each. Most of the Klingon explore missions have only 2 anomalies, with a few having 3 or 4. If it's a ground combat mission, Klingons are lucky to get one anomaly that is accessible, most are buried.

    To sum up, there are 3 main reasons Feds lose so badly, most of the time
    1. Lack of practice
    2. Lack of teamwork
    3. Using PvE builds

    I've been in matches, before all those nerfs to Klingon ships that were mentioned in the OP, where there was a group of Feds that did work well together, obviously played a lot of PvP and were using PvP builds that won some and lost some, but all the matches against them were close.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    3. Carrier and petspam was overpowered to the level of being pointless to fight before. Petspam was horrendous. Now I'd say it's balanced. There are STILL unkilleable carriers - ran into one yesterday in Arena (IKS Ghost I believe), took 4 feds to take it down.

    The pet spam everyone complained about was due to a bug that some people exploited that allowed them to summon more pets than they were supposed to be able to. That bug was fixed. Yet, the carrier still got a slew of nerfs all because of those few who exploited this bug.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Monthar wrote:
    Aren't these the main reasons FvF PvP was added way back when? So fed players could queue up against each other to work out their tactics and teamwork. The basis of this in the canon was the TNG War Games episode.

    yeah, and theres way less people in FVF than there are in FVK. ive tried to join the que for these, but i never actually get a match out of it unless its a specific challenge
    Monthar wrote:
    As for the stuff I clipped from this quote, if more folks would do the FvF PvP and set-up their builds for it, the Cruisers & Science vessels can match those healing numbers. With the Scorpion fighters Photonic fleets, BFAW, Photonic Shockwave and several other skills, the carrier's fighters are easily dealt with. I know this for a fact, because I have PvPed from both sides and had builds set-up specifically to deal with carriers on both sides.

    yes but like i stated earlier, pretty much everyone on the fed team needs some of these skills if youre combating more than one carrier, due the enormous amount of targets that multiple carriers produce
    Monthar wrote:
    Also, the equipment you mentioned isn't good enough, specifically the uncommon items. You need to upgrade those to rare or very rare. This is where the crafting system will help. Considering how much easier it is for Feds to gather enough data samples, due primarily to more exploration sectors, so less overlap in them, and the data scan missions that go real quick and give 5 anomalies each. Most of the Klingon explore missions have only 2 anomalies, with a few having 3 or 4. If it's a ground combat mission, Klingons are lucky to get one anomaly that is accessible, most are buried.

    all of my weapons were MK XI purple items, crafted myself. all my consoles are green or blue, and mk x or better. I ran out of materials to craft with, and I'm not exactly of the mind set to spend hours farming to get marginal improvements in my consoles
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    hurleybird wrote: »
    1. Due to whining on the forum, B'rel was nerfed into uselessness. When it came to live it was useless and laughable. Now people point and laugh and roll their eyes at people who bring this pathetic vessel into combat. We know the B'rel sucks, Cryptic knows the B'rel sucks, yet they do nothing to balance it!
    2. Not so with the galaxy-x which is being buffed into awesomeness.
    3. In comparison, the Carrier suffered a trinity of massive nerfs all at the same time. The Nerf that shows the most bias is hanger efficiency -- when sci powers were changed to work off of aux power, *75* power was chosen to give the base effect. For whatever reason, the aux power needed to attain the old base rate for launching fighters is *100*. Why the inconsistency? whimsically picking numbers out of thin air or just hating on Klingons some more?
    4. The Varanus had it's turn rate increased but lost hull points to compensate.
    5. But the various Fed science ships gained hull or had their turn rate increased without losing the other. The Nebula got both and suffered no negative counter balancing. Why?
    6. Implementation of the passive science vessel skill showed massive bias IMHO. Between the Vulcan, Intrepid, and Nebula science ships the feds have the best sci ships in the game. Klingons flying the Varanus are a very rare bunch.
    7. Despite having subsystem targeting and obviously being meant as a science vessel at the start of the game, carriers are no longer sci ships now as they don't get sensor analysis. Again, more illogical inconsistency on the part of Cryptic that always seems to be unfavorable for Klingons!
    8. Excelsior vs. Vorcha. These two ships are clearly meant to be analogous, but the handling of both again shows a bias against Klingons. Unlike other ships, neither loses a console slot. The Vorcha gets a nice turn rate while the Excelsior gets an amazing boff selection thanks to the LT. Cmdr tac slot (having different cmdr. and lt cmdr. slots is always a superior set up to having two of the same because of redundancies) Yet, for no apparent reason the Vorcha loses a good chunk of hull and a device slot while the Excelsior doesn't.
    9. Klingon's still don't have efficient boffs putting us at a distinct disadvantage against federation players who have ships full of them. This in particular is something that should have been addressed *weeks* after launch.
    10. The best ability in the game, the Intrepid's ablative armor was deemed by the vocal PvP community and Cryptic themselves to be OP. But instead of fixing it, they lowered both the duration *and* the cooldown. This actually made things worse, since 15 seconds is more than enough time to heal and resist-up a team member and the more often this can be done the more powerful the ability becomes.
    11. Last but not least -- the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak, the Advanced escort MVAM version. The boff layout (cmdr. tac, lt. tac, ensign tac, lt eng, lt. cmdr sci) basically gives it 90% of the versatility of the Bop without any of the drawbacks. This ship has way more hull than a BoP, more weapons than a BoP, more boff stations than a BoP, more tactical consoles than a BoP, and a kickass ability that can take up a much less valuable sci slot (at the least it should NEED to take up a tactical slot). This ship in it's current iteration is by far the best escort in the game, with nothing else coming close. The feds now have the best cruisers, sci ships, AND escorts in the game and it reeks of imbalance

    Hey Jorf, this is Kerngan. I'll just make these comments:
    1. Brel. If i remember this thing has the least hull hp AND I've been known to tag several brels with haz emitters. Funny stuff, until I hear all kinds of colorful metaphors thrown at my direction. (Sorry Minimax etc.)

    To pure fed players, the enhanced battle cloak seems OP, but those of us who play kling / both sides know it's ... an acquired taste. No other cloak will expose the ship to be seen when a heal's put on them. FOr me, I'll keep the hegta's regular battle cloak thanks. (Dear cryptic, if you're reading this, please don't nerf how regular battle cloaks work right now)

    2. I love my nebula. Turn rate of 16, a uni LT slot, Cmdr. sci + LT Cmdr. Eng bridge officer slots? Yes please

    3. "Last but not least -- the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak, the Advanced escort MVAM version. The boff layout (cmdr. tac, lt. tac, ensign tac, lt eng, lt. cmdr sci) basically gives it 90% of the versatility of the Bop without any of the drawbacks. "

    I agree with you. One of my favorite setups is Cmdr Tac + LT Cm Sci (for scram sensors 1, TSS3, sci team) and that used to be only available to BoPs. Now it's shared with blue team. What did red side get out of it? yeah...

    I'm willing to bet we'll only see the new mvam escort + fed raptors (yes, the sisko ships are feddie raptors...) be fielded in pvp. Fleet escort / garumbas just don't appeal to me if I can pilot the adv escort 2.0 with its lt cm sci and the ability to become a fed BoP in terms of turn rate.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Phibrizzo wrote: »
    This shouldn't NEED an explanation, but I'll provide it for you. More people play Feds. Therefore more people create content for the Fed Side.

    Don't you think there would be more Klingon players if there was more Klingon content? I, personally, know of at least 3 dozen players who quit and canceled their subscriptions over 9 months ago due to lack of Klingon content. In the beginning at least 1/4-1/3 of the players rushed to unlock Klingon and didn't play their Fed characters again until they reached BG1. By that point, most of them quit, because they were sick of the lack of content and only being able to get KvK PvP matches, most of which were lopsided due to the very broken queuing system.

    Many more than mentioned above rushed to unlock Klingons, only to go right back to playing their Fed character before hitting T2, because of the lack of content. Most of those never went back to their Klingon character.

    If Klingons had decent content from the beginning, even if it was still less than the Feds, I'd wager the split would be closer to 50/50 now.

    So what we have here is a chicken and egg situation. Lack of content = fewer Klingon players = less content created = fewer players even wanting to try Klingon.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Monthar wrote:
    Don't you think there would be more Klingon players if there was more Klingon content? I, personally, know of at least 3 dozen players who quit and canceled their subscriptions over 9 months ago due to lack of Klingon content. In the beginning at least 1/4-1/3 of the players rushed to unlock Klingon and didn't play their Fed characters again until they reached BG1. By that point, most of them quit, because they were sick of the lack of content and only being able to get KvK PvP matches, most of which were lopsided due to the very broken queuing system.

    Many more than mentioned above rushed to unlock Klingons, only to go right back to playing their Fed character before hitting T2, because of the lack of content. Most of those never went back to their Klingon character.

    If Klingons had decent content from the beginning, even if it was still less than the Feds, I'd wager the split would be closer to 50/50 now.

    So what we have here is a chicken and egg situation. Lack of content = fewer Klingon players = less content created = fewer players even wanting to try Klingon.

    about that last part, i agree, believe me

    however, at best 1/3 of players went and got a klink character as soon as possible and many quit. even if they hadnt, there probably still wouldnt be as many klink players as there are fed. and therefore, there would still be more fed players creating content than there are klinks creating content

    thats the point i was trying to make
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Phibrizzo wrote: »
    Alot of the time, it doesn't matter how much healing one does, when either 5 BoP's or 5 raptors decloak at the same time and alpha one target. That target generally dies too fast for anyone to heal him.

    That's just good teamwork. If 5 ships on either side all target the same ship, that target will die.

    All it takes is one good captain in a Science vessel speced and equipped to detect cloak to spot those BoPs/Raptors coming before they get to their optimal firing range, which is less than 5k. A proper cloak detention set-up can spot cloak ships out to the 10k weapons range, unless those cloaked ships are running full aux, then it's more like 7.5k. If they're running full aux, with the fewer Eng consoles, it'll take them a second or two to switch back to full weapons power by using a battery and EP to Wep. If they don't time it right, that battery's boost will dissipate before the alpha strike.

    Last time I tested my Deep Space Science vessel with the cloak detection set-up, way before the new ships were added, the best I pulled off was to spot a cloaked ship at 13k. I even posted my build and screenshots back when I did that test, just to prove that Feds can take away the cloak advantage.

    Do you know how much we messed up the Klingons' plans in that match were I did the testing? We popped 2 of them before they could decloak. A BoP without its shields, because it's cloaked, pops real quick.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    yes but sensor scan has a rather long cooldown when compared with its active duration and the fact you can see a sci ship using it from a long long ways away. youd have to get lucky to catch them like you describe
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    [*]Last but not least -- the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak, the Advanced escort MVAM version. The boff layout (cmdr. tac, lt. tac, ensign tac, lt eng, lt. cmdr sci) basically gives it 90% of the versatility of the Bop without any of the drawbacks. This ship has way more hull than a BoP, more weapons than a BoP, more boff stations than a BoP, more tactical consoles than a BoP, and a kickass ability that can take up a much less valuable sci slot (at the least it should NEED to take up a tactical slot). This ship in it's current iteration is by far the best escort in the game, with nothing else coming close. The feds now have the best cruisers, sci ships, AND escorts in the game and it reeks of imbalance


    I run the advanced escort and the MVAM is going to be a console we have to add to the ship. So we lose one console slot to have the MVAM. also you have the BO slots wrong . It has a Cmdr tac,LT Tac, LT eng,
    eng sci and a LT sci. so not as uber as you thought. It is a good ship and I love it. I can tell you a fellow fleet member has a klingon that captains a carrier and I went against him in PVP and that carrier took care of me in my galaxt retro. so one on one the carrier kicks butt. In a mass PVP might be diffrent but I know I dont want to face on solo lol.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Monthar wrote:
    That's just good teamwork.

    It's a bit more than good teamwork really. When I play red side, there is always a couple other klingons in the match who I know / previously fought with before.

    I play off of their style. I know some bop pilots fly run and gun, some scrap, some (like myself) throw out sci abilities etc. Alpha strike isn't the main advantage of klingons imo. It's the fact that I know who I'm playing with and can coordinate with them match after match after match.

    With feds, I've no idea if the guy 5 km from me will heal me or support my target or run at the first sign he's being focused on.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Most people seem to always forget that in Star Trek, the Bird of Prey is a scout that can get 1 shoted by most phaser banks. Should feel fortunate they made it alot more powerful in STO, if it was up to me, the BOP would be still a scout.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Deckeon wrote:
    [*]Last but not least -- the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak, the Advanced escort MVAM version. The boff layout (cmdr. tac, lt. tac, ensign tac, lt eng, lt. cmdr sci) basically gives it 90% of the versatility of the Bop without any of the drawbacks. This ship has way more hull than a BoP, more weapons than a BoP, more boff stations than a BoP, more tactical consoles than a BoP, and a kickass ability that can take up a much less valuable sci slot (at the least it should NEED to take up a tactical slot). This ship in it's current iteration is by far the best escort in the game, with nothing else coming close. The feds now have the best cruisers, sci ships, AND escorts in the game and it reeks of imbalance


    I run the advanced escort and the MVAM is going to be a console we have to add to the ship. So we lose one console slot to have the MVAM. also you have the BO slots wrong . It has a Cmdr tac,LT Tac, LT eng,
    eng sci and a LT sci. so not as uber as you thought. It is a good ship and I love it. I can tell you a fellow fleet member has a klingon that captains a carrier and I went against him in PVP and that carrier took care of me in my galaxt retro. so one on one the carrier kicks butt. In a mass PVP might be diffrent but I know I dont want to face on solo lol.

    Someone's not been keeping up to date on the changes happening on tribble...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Phibrizzo wrote: »
    yes but sensor scan has a rather long cooldown when compared with its active duration and the fact you can see a sci ship using it from a long long ways away. youd have to get lucky to catch them like you describe

    Umm, I tested that using an Engineering captain, so I had no sensor scan and still detected cloaks out to 13k.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    @OP:

    You compare a 200 year old Bird of Prey to a fairly new High Tech FED Ship like the Prometheus?
    The Prometheus in the Series would rip any BoP a new one and made even Romulan Warbirds look old...

    The BoP is a counterpart to the Defiant, there is no counterpart to the Prometheus at this moment at all,
    but FEDs do not have a counterpart for the Carrier, so hmm... yeah
    i do not see a reason for the KDF to demand a 1 on 1 counterpart for the Prometheus to begin with.
    (if the Devs make one, fine it's their choice, no problem, but you have no ground to complain here)


    You complain about a universal console while you have universal BOff Slots?
    u know how silly that sounds?



    When entering a PvP match vs. Klingons the only thing i see are orange boxes everywhere, the UI spam is so bad i can't even target the real players in all that PvE Pet + Mine spam anymore and it only takes one player BoP at the right moment to kill me while i am fighting with the clumsy controls...


    PvP has more serious problems to deal with then some slight imballances between 2 Factions...
    Alien Factions that should be entirely diffrent to each other instead of having perfectly ballanced counterparts to every single ship.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    gx4th wrote: »
    IIt's the fact that I know who I'm playing with and can coordinate with them match after match after match.
    This is exactly why I said it's good teamwork. In the battle mentioned that I replied to, those captains coordinated before they engaged. Even if it was the first match they were all in together and had all just met, I guarantee they formed a team and at least decided who would call the targets and everyone assisted off that person.
    With feds, I've no idea if the guy 5 km from me will heal me or support my target or run at the first sign he's being focused on.
    In most Fed PUG I ever joined, I was lucky to get 1 or 2 to group with me, but they rarely if ever talked, other than the occasional "ned helz" or "hel plz", or "hel, hel, hel". Which was really irritating that they would spam the misspelled heal, instead of adding the single "a" to a single spelling, plus the way they'd say it came off as rude. Sure, there were a few occasions where I could manage a full group, but I was lucky to get even one or two to cooperate. Many times they'd instantly full impulse right into an ambush over and over, thus costing us half the match's point limit. Most of the time when I could only get 2-3 to join the group, it's because the others immediately warped out before even seeing what we were up against.

    Then there was the rare occasion when the Fed PuG actually formed a group and coordinated before anyone started moving. Those matches where when we gave the Klingons a run for their money and had a close game. I could usually get that group to stick together for a few matches where we'd win some and lose some, but always had close games.


    In other words, more often than not the Klingon PUGs group up and coordinate, while the Fed PUGs don't. This is the primary reason most matches would end in a landslide victory for the Klingons. Teamwork vs lack of teamwork.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Monthar wrote:
    Umm, I tested that using an Engineering captain, so I had no sensor scan and still detected cloaks out to 13k.

    using what? a nebula class? otherwise, i dont see how thats possible

    the tachyon detection from the nebula is also visible from a distance, and again, has a long cooldown
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Here's the problem: STO doesn't require players to group at all until endgame. When you get to endgame, if you wish to acquire the endgame items, you pretty much are required to group. So what you end up with is a bunch of players who spent their entire time playing solo now "forced" into a situation where they have to group, and they have no social gaming skills what-so-ever.

    What STO needs is more lower level, group-only content that is fairly easy to complete, but ramps up as you level. This way when these players get to the end-game they might actually know how to communicate and operate in a group setting. In other words, the game needs to teach players how to group and work together as a team. Everquest did this (by many accounts, did it badly), but STO does not at all.

    I'd love to see one STF at the end of each rank, with items that are marginally better than any others items available at that rank. They don't have to be 5-man missions either; make some two or three player STFs to get people primed for the 5-man missions later in the game.
    I'd also like to see rewards linked to difficulty so that players will gain more emblems/marks if they run missions at advanced or elite, and the items rewarded should increase in value accordingly.

    Give people a reason to group and they will. And if players are accustom to grouping earlier in the game, then you won't run into so many antisocial players at end-game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    OP has a lot of very good points, and I agree that the only logical reason that cryptic is doing this is to try and make up for Klingon's PvP experience. This is never a good idea, as you're doing nothing but catering to the least common denominator.

    The best thing is, though, there are still people who thing that Klingons need to be nerfed MORE.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    hurleybird wrote: »
    1. Due to whining on the forum, B'rel was nerfed into uselessness. When it came to live it was useless and laughable. Now people point and laugh and roll their eyes at people who bring this pathetic vessel into combat. We know the B'rel sucks, Cryptic knows the B'rel sucks, yet they do nothing to balance it!
    I am not sure they actually get that yet. But I might have missed such an acknowledgment (paricular if it was informal during a PvP session on Tribble.)
    The solution to me is that the uncloak effect from using torpedoes or powers should always have the same duration (about 3-5 seconds, whatever the current one for torps is). And other players should not be able to trigger the uncloaking at all.
    hurleybird wrote: »
    [LIST=2]
    [*]Not so with the galaxy-x which is being buffed into awesomeness.
    [/LIST]
    After a long time. The B'Rel Retrofit hasn't been out that long yet.
    hurleybird wrote: »
    [LIST=3]
    [*]In comparison, the Carrier suffered a trinity of massive nerfs all at the same time. The Nerf that shows the most bias is hanger efficiency -- when sci powers were changed to work off of aux power, *75* power was chosen to give the base effect. For whatever reason, the aux power needed to attain the old base rate for launching fighters is *100*. Why the inconsistency? whimsically picking numbers out of thin air or just hating on Klingons some more?
    [/LIST]
    The Carrier was nerfed, buffed, and nerfed. I agree that the "power mean" should have been at 75. I think the ship is fine now mostly - taking into account that some powers (Tactical Team) got changed.

    hurleybird wrote: »
    [LIST=4]
    [*]The Varanus had it's turn rate increased but lost hull points to compensate.
    [*]But the various Fed science ships gained hull or had their turn rate increased without losing the other. The Nebula got both and suffered no negative counter balancing. Why?
    [/LIST]
    I think this is just one point since only the two facts together make any sense. But: What is the final value in regards to hull points? I would expect that DSSV and Vorenus - now basically being clones of each other in most areas - should have the same turn rate and the same hull rating. If that is not the case, it is a justified complaint.
    hurleybird wrote: »
    [LIST=6]
    [*]Implementation of the passive science vessel skill showed massive bias IMHO. Between the Vulcan, Intrepid, and Nebula science ships the feds have the best sci ships in the game. Klingons flying the Varanus are a very rare bunch.
    [/LIST]
    The Varanus - absent any possible hull stats differences - should be well balanced compared to the DSSV. That ship alone cannot do more.

    Of course there are othe rproblems with the KDF, most importantly probably that if you fly a "cloak/alpha strike" strategy, a ship without cloak dilutes it.
    hurleybird wrote: »
    [LIST=7]
    [*]Despite having subsystem targeting and obviously being meant as a science vessel at the start of the game, carriers are no longer sci ships now as they don't get sensor analysis. Again, more illogical inconsistency on the part of Cryptic that always seems to be unfavorable for Klingons!
    [/LIST]
    I don't think that is a problem. Science Vessels, despite having subsystem targeting, don't have carrier pets either. That was never a problem. (Except for some people that want to turn any random Starfleet vessel into a stupid carrier). The Carrier is not a Science Vessel, even if Cryptic originally might have thought it is.
    In my opinion, the subsystem targeting should be ripped out and be replaced with decent controls over the carrier pets.
    hurleybird wrote: »
    [LIST=8]
    [*]Excelsior vs. Vorcha. These two ships are clearly meant to be analogous, but the handling of both again shows a bias against Klingons. Unlike other ships, neither loses a console slot. The Vorcha gets a nice turn rate while the Excelsior gets an amazing boff selection thanks to the LT. Cmdr tac slot (having different cmdr. and lt cmdr. slots is always a superior set up to having two of the same because of redundancies) Yet, for no apparent reason the Vorcha loses a good chunk of hull and a device slot while the Excelsior doesn't.
    [/LIST]
    The way I see it, Cryptic seems to have an innate assumption that "more tactical slot => more turn rate". And a lot of people seem to think that a low turn rate is also a bad idea for science vessel (I am one of them.) So it could be argued that bridge officer slots also usually imply certain other game statistics. I don't think many people would want to fly a ship with the Defiant BO slots and otherwise all the stats of an Assault Cruiser (or at least be very disappointed in its performance after they tried it a while.)

    Either way, I think it is a balance factor that the Vor'Cha does not get Dual Heavy CAnnons and a Lt.Cmdr Tactical slot in one package, but the Excelsior could be better balanced if it had similar hull as the Vor'Cha.

    My rationale is - if we talk about alpha strike potential of a ship, cloak, dual cannons and 4 tactical powers are pretty much the optimum you can get. If you fill up the remaining slots with non-tactical powers, you quickly run in game balance problems with a ship that can deliver significant bursts and still survive very long.
    hurleybird wrote: »
    [LIST=9]
    [*]Klingon's still don't have efficient boffs putting us at a distinct disadvantage against federation players who have ships full of them. This in particular is something that should have been addressed *weeks* after launch.
    [/LIST]
    I think this is a way overrated element in this game, but I agree if Klingons also want to spend ridicilous amounts of money on the exchange for Efficient BOs, there should be an option for it.

    hurleybird wrote: »
    [LIST=10]
    [*]The best ability in the game, the Intrepid's ablative armor was deemed by the vocal PvP community and Cryptic themselves to be OP. But instead of fixing it, they lowered both the duration *and* the cooldown. This actually made things worse, since 15 seconds is more than enough time to heal and resist-up a team member and the more often this can be done the more powerful the ability becomes.
    [/LIST]
    A funny fact is that many people cried it was a nerf. At least snix knows that it was merely a change.
    hurleybird wrote: »
    [LIST=11]
    [*]Last but not least -- the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak, the Advanced escort MVAM version. The boff layout (cmdr. tac, lt. tac, ensign tac, lt eng, lt. cmdr sci) basically gives it 90% of the versatility of the Bop without any of the drawbacks. This ship has way more hull than a BoP, more weapons than a BoP, more boff stations than a BoP, more tactical consoles than a BoP, and a kickass ability that can take up a much less valuable sci slot (at the least it should NEED to take up a tactical slot). This ship in it's current iteration is by far the best escort in the game, with nothing else coming close. The feds now have the best cruisers, sci ships, AND escorts in the game and it reeks of imbalance
    [/LIST]
    It doesn't give it 90 % of the BOPs versatility at all. The BoP is stilll considerably more versatile. But most of the remaining versatility doesn't yield effective builds.

    I see that this could be a problem, but here are further drawbacks compared to the BoP:
    • No Cloak at All. Not just no Battlecloak, no cloak.
    • Innate lower turn rate
    • Higher turn rates possible, but at the expense of hull strength, making the ship similar survivability as a BoP - without cloak.

    The real isssue IMO is that this BO layout might be inherently superior to the typical Escort BO layout. As I mentioned before - you can't really use effectivly more then 4 Tactical BO powers in a single attack. So having another 3-4 powers is not relevant for the primary purpose of an Escorts job - burst damage. You're better off with buffing your survivability, and even better off with adding a power that adds to your burst ability.I typically name Photonic Shockwave here - stun your enemy, so he cannot counter your burst. But other powers are also useful (Scramble might be better if you worry about his allies heals, Tractor Bea

    The last point is also why I dislike framing all balance discussions with antagonist "Fed vs Klinks" conflicts or "Mum doesn't love me anymore". It is important to look at the bigger picture.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Z3R0B4NG wrote: »
    @OP:

    You compare a 200 year old Bird of Prey to a fairly new High Tech FED Ship like the Prometheus?
    The Prometheus in the Series would rip any BoP a new one and made even Romulan Warbirds look old...

    .
    He is comparing a Tier 5 ship with another Tier 5 ship. That is it.

    Canon has its place, but before you assign a tier to a ship. Once you have done that, you need to stick to it and make it fit there. Anything else is just weak-TRIBBLE game design.

    You disagree with the idea the B'Rel Retrofit or the Excelsior Retrofit are Tier 5 ships? That's fine. But as long as they are, they need to act like tier 5 ships, not better, not worse.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    1. Due to whining on the forum, B'rel was nerfed into uselessness.
    Amen Brother, Preach it.
    [*]Not so with the galaxy-x which is being buffed into awesomeness.
    The fed whine flows, though I don't think it need more than a turn buff. Kahless variuos anatomical parts I'm not allowed to mention, what do I know I'm just a klink in the back of the bus.
    [*]In comparison, the Carrier suffered a trinity of massive nerfs all at the same time.
    Make it useless to start with, buff it into useful, then nerf it back due to fed complaints of "pet spam", give everybody pet spam. Yeah that makes sense.:p
    [*]The Varanus had it's turn rate increased but lost hull points to compensate.
    How many fed science vessels suffered that cost/balance measure?
    [*]But the various Fed science ships gained hull or had their turn rate increased without losing the other.
    ]The Nebula got both and suffered no negative counter balancing. Why?
    Shocking is it becuase we are mean old Klinks bruising those fragile fed egoes in PuG. Until a premie comes along and demonstrates what teamwork and fed vessels can really do. Then its "all ok" and "whats the issue".
    [*]Implementation of the passive science vessel skill showed massive bias IMHO. Between the Vulcan, Intrepid, and Nebula science ships the feds have the best sci ships in the game. Klingons flying the Varanus are a very rare bunch.
    Remember we Klingons are too dumb to have science capability. Too dumb to have the technology to advance our race into space travel. Too dumb to have back engineered the H'urq technology to achieve interstellar travel......
    [*]Despite having subsystem targeting and obviously being meant as a science vessel at the start of the game, carriers are no longer sci ships now as they don't get sensor analysis. Again, more illogical inconsistency on the part of Cryptic that always seems to be unfavorable for Klingons!
    I asked that myself of them. Pick a theme, is it or is it not science?
    [*]Excelsior vs. Vorcha. These two ships are clearly meant to be analogous, but the handling of both again shows a bias against Klingons. Unlike other ships, neither loses a console slot. The Vorcha gets a nice turn rate while the Excelsior gets an amazing boff selection thanks to the LT. Cmdr tac slot (having different cmdr. and lt cmdr. slots is always a superior set up to having two of the same because of redundancies) Yet, for no apparent reason the Vorcha loses a good chunk of hull and a device slot while the Excelsior doesn't.
    Remember we are mean and OP villians........
    [*]Klingon's still don't have efficient boffs putting us at a distinct disadvantage against federation players who have ships full of them. This in particular is something that should have been addressed *weeks* after launch.
    Why would we- we are dumb remember? Loud swaggering louts with few brain cells to rub together. Surely not capable of intelligent design or function. :p
    [*]The best ability in the game, the Intrepid's ablative armor was deemed by the vocal PvP community and Cryptic themselves to be OP. But instead of fixing it, they lowered both the duration *and* the cooldown. This actually made things worse, since 15 seconds is more than enough time to heal and resist-up a team member and the more often this can be done the more powerful the ability becomes.
    I have no sarcasm here to offer as I know little of the Intrepids ablative armour.
    [*]Last but not least -- the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak, the Advanced escort MVAM version. The boff layout (cmdr. tac, lt. tac, ensign tac, lt eng, lt. cmdr sci) basically gives it 90% of the versatility of the Bop without any of the drawbacks. This ship has way more hull than a BoP, more weapons than a BoP, more boff stations than a BoP, more tactical consoles than a BoP, and a kickass ability that can take up a much less valuable sci slot (at the least it should NEED to take up a tactical slot). This ship in it's current iteration is by far the best escort in the game, with nothing else coming close. The feds now have the best cruisers, sci ships, AND escorts in the game and it reeks of imbalance
    We all knew the BoP killer was comming eventualy as the feds have whined about the BoP since day one of encountering them in pvp. Fed whine fed gets becuase they pay the bills and the rest of us are just dragging along like a pair salty ol' peanuts hanging in a papersack on the front of my belt for thier amusement.
    Now to be fair, I don't think Cryptic really hates Klingons.
    I think they fear losing thier fed paying fans and having the game slide into obscurity.

    Such is my rant and my conspiracy theories.
    Thank you for your time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    11. Duhhhh... hrrrrrrm.... combat cloak? Like... bops leaving combat whenever they feel they're gonna getting their asses kicked? I welcome this change. The life of bops will get a bit harder from now on, you'll actually have to DO something to win, other than sci spam.

    Try it one day for yourself. Hop In a BoP at LG level , crawl into a big ol'hairy fedball and use your BC to try to escape whenever you feel like it.
    Enjoy the torps and energy attacks against your shieldless vessel.
    The process works nothing like you think it does.
    Now hitting EVM+ENGbatt or some Duetrium will get you 20klicks away from combat and then you can BC will in the process of running, but you sure as hell can't BC then run - or you die.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    better yet hop in a B'rel one mistake and your dead its actually quite fun except when ur kdf allies heal you while u trying to combat cloak away.....

    I still find it funny that the advanced combat cloak is actually worse then the normal battle cloak...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    wow, lol,

    people are *****ing about the fed whine and yet here is a klink one but thats ok :p

    as for these balance issues im knida of getting sick of them most pvp games i play are usually 3-4 points difference.

    Dont get me wrong i dont like the feds "klinks are op" argument right now its seems rather balanced and roach you've read some of my posts about the subject before, it comes down to team play and klinks are simply better at it and its something that cant really be undone at the present stage of the game.

    And to be honest there are way more feds than klinks so the fed opnions are going to carry more weight, its not fair but it happens.

    for the most part i agree that things need fixing on the klink side amd the OP made some good points but i cant help but feel that this topic is a direct result of the MVAM coming out seems when ever a new ship comes out on either side these posts start appearing.
This discussion has been closed.