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Selling Energy Credits for Atari Tokens - is this allowed?

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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    the problem is, that this indirectly transfers monay to EC ingame

    You mean like being able to sell the C-Store Skill Boosters on the Exchange?

    A player can buy 500 Atari Tokens today, grab themselves 4 Skill Boosters from the C-Store, and turn around and sell them in game for Energy Credits, making over a million in the process.

    All legitimate, and all approved by Cryptic. (Otherwise they wouldn't have been tradable in the first place.)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I belive the answer to the question, is somewhat clearly stated in the Terms of Service:

    http://www.startrekonline.com/terms_of_service
    10. Ownership/Selling of the Account or Virtual Items. Cryptic does not recognize the transfer of Accounts. You may not purchase, sell, gift or trade any Account, or offer to purchase, sell, gift or trade any Account, and any such attempt shall be null and void. Cryptic owns, has licensed, or otherwise has rights to all of the content that appears in the Game. You agree that you have no right or title in or to any such content, including the virtual goods or currency appearing or originating in the Game, Atari Tokens or any other attributes associated with the Account or stored on the Service ("Game Assets"). Cryptic does not recognize any Game Assets transfers executed outside of the Game or the purported sale, gift or trade in the "real world" of anything related to the Game. Accordingly, you may not sell Game Assets for "real" money or otherwise exchange items for value outside of the Game. Any such sale or exchange is a material breach of this Agreement for which Cryptic may (but is not obligated to) immediately suspend or terminate your account.

    Hope this helps.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    My usual question:
    Why do you need EC in this game so bad, that you are ready to pay real $??? What is the point of having 999.999.999.999.999.999.999.999.999.999 EC? I can understand when people strive for more real world money, but this is fricken monopoly money in an imaginery land. It won't make you a better player. It won't make the game more fun (even makes it less fun).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Pendra37 wrote: »
    My usual question:
    Why do you need EC in this game so bad, that you are ready to pay real $??? What is the point of having 999.999.999.999.999.999.999.999.999.999 EC? I can understand when people strive for more real world money, but this is fricken monopoly money in an imaginery land. It won't make you a better player. It won't make the game more fun (even makes it less fun).

    If people didn't want it, there wouldn't be a market for it.

    Better the facility be offered legitimately in-game than through spyware-ridden third party websites.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    anazonda wrote: »
    I belive the answer to the question, is somewhat clearly stated in the Terms of Service:

    http://www.startrekonline.com/terms_of_service

    Hope this helps.

    Thanks for the link, but the exchange will occur entirely within the game. Or at least, the definition of 'The Game' that incorporates the Atari Token mechanism.

    That's the grey area: Does the integrated C-Store and AT currency legally constitute part of 'The Game'? How would this status be affected by the recent UI change to put AT values directly into the game instead of a separate C-Store interface?

    Atari Tokens have no intrinsic value, other than what Cryptic decide they are worth in exchange for other items of no intrinsic value. They cannot be cashed out once assigned to a game account.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Regardless if the transaction happens within the game or not, the purchase of the in-game assets were still facilitated through real life currency.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    If people didn't want it, there wouldn't be a market for it.

    Better the facility be offered legitimately in-game than through spyware-ridden third party websites.

    IIRC you can get those boosters as in-game loot drops. So the chances are good that those items were picked up free of AT charge.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    People have been buying the skills boosts and hawking them on exchange since day 1 of their arrival anyway.

    If your trading atari tokens for EC then just do it in private, its never going to be traceable.

    The one benefit of this new system is that i can get US friends to buy tokens for me so i dont have to get hit with the suprise +20% tax on checkout from buying from cryptic ( their isnt another single huge or small, free or pay to play MMO that i partake in that makes me pay that tax so no excuses from cryptic :P )
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Pendra37 wrote: »
    IIRC you can get those boosters as in-game loot drops. So the chances are good that those items were picked up free of AT charge.

    But the ability for a player to sell these items on the Exchange exists.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    anazonda wrote: »
    Regardless if the transaction happens within the game or not, the purchase of the in-game assets were still facilitated through real life currency.

    This is what happens everyday when players purchase AT from Cryptic. The determining factor most game companies use is whether they get the real life currency or someone else does. Them = okay. Someone else = bad. So this is not a factor.

    The other thing I have seen them consider is enforceability. This is where I see them having a problem with this if they do. It will be because they won't be able to police these transactions and thus they will ripe for abuse. Which lead to a common rule against it with them doing nothing to enforce said rule since they don't really care, but it gives them a way to deal with those who claim they were defrauded: "Sorry but we can't do anything because what you were attempting is against the rules."
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    This has been a big no-no in every MMO I've ever played which utilized microtransactions. The main reason is because it's incredibly easy to scam this way since the trade isn't regulated. Someone has to hand over their currency first, and the other person could easily take off with it. The other reason is that there are risks involved with chargebacks and so on, but I'm not very knowledgeable on that front. Point being that unless there's a spot for Atari Tokens on the trade window, it's a bad idea unless it's a close friend.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Terral wrote:
    a spot for Atari Tokens on the trade window

    That would be a most elegant solution.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Now we can gift Atari Tokens to other players, this leads to a rather interesting business strategy.

    An enterprising player could offer other players a sum of Energy Credits as reward for being gifted a bunch of Atari Tokens. An exchange rate is already in place, given the current Cryptic-approved market for skill point boosters. 1 Hour Skill Boosters worth 500 AT = about 1,500,000 EC on the Exchange.

    Before I cash in on my many months of Exchange abuse, I just wanted to know if this was actually within the rules.

    This could blow the whole RMT black market out of the water if it's sufficiently legit. Cryptic will win out on this, as the money remains in their coffers, just passed from one player to another.

    If this IS legit, then why not take the next step and give these Virtual Atari Token cards an in-game presence, so they can be directly traded on the Exchange?

    It worked for CCP and PLEX, so why wouldn't it work here?


    What I'm trying to figure out here is how this negatively impacts anyone's gameplay...not like there's an economy in this game to begin with anyway...not like EC can actually buy any of the really good stuff (which is all store BoP if it's not a very rare which is often insanely priced on the exchange).

    I have 18 million EC on my main alone. He has no use for that since his costumes are as I like them and he has a free token or two anyway. He has 2 ships from the rear admiral levels for free plus a VA ship for free plus ships bought with marks and on the C-Store.

    If EVE can let players pay for game time with in-game credit I don't see the harm in Cryptic allowing us to buy C-Store points from other players with in-game credits.

    In fact I'd think they would encourage us buying Tokens for EC...Why?

    They get paid for Atari Tokens

    Cash I can see them discouraging because they gain nothing from me giving 5 bucks to someone for 5 million EC. But if someone gives me 400 Atari Tokens for 5 million EC not only has Cryptic made money off My sub and the person I'm trading to's sub but also off that person buying tokens to trade for my EC....

    If they were smart they'd have implemented a way for us to do this in game already. I mean, hell I'd buy 400 Tokens for 10-15 million EC.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    'The Game'

    'The Game'?
    You know not what you have just done.

    I just lost the game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I used to Play Runes of Magic. It is F2P, the CS stuff was diamonds.

    They were with it, acually there WAS an option to exchange Diamonds for gold in AH, but that was taken out cause of gold sellers, and for the longest time on world chat you would see "WTB <item in CS> for 2000/D".

    I hear they made a NPC recently to do the trading through the game, but it is a set price. AH and Chat the price varies by sales and person.

    Of course, each company is different.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Krizonar wrote:
    You know not what you have just done.

    I just lost the game.

    http://xkcd.com/391/
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Powerhelm wrote: »
    Cash I can see them discouraging because they gain nothing from me giving 5 bucks to someone for 5 million EC. But if someone gives me 400 Atari Tokens for 5 million EC not only has Cryptic made money off My sub and the person I'm trading to's sub but also off that person buying tokens to trade for my EC....

    Aye. This is exactly why it works for Eve.
    Krizonar wrote:
    You know not what you have just done.

    I just lost the game.

    KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    ,... That's the grey area: Does the integrated C-Store and AT currency legally constitute part of 'The Game'? How would this status be affected by the recent UI change to put AT values directly into the game instead of a separate C-Store interface?

    Atari Tokens have no intrinsic value, other than what Cryptic decide they are worth in exchange for other items of no intrinsic value. They cannot be cashed out once assigned to a game account.
    Since Atari tokens can only be purchased with Real $$$, it would be difficult to argue that they are a 'In-Game' item... as In-Game items can be purchased with either ECs, Emblems, or as received as Mission Rewards. A Gift of AT is the equivalent of a 'real' currency exchange from one account to another...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    A Gift of AT is the equivalent of a 'real' currency exchange from one account to another...

    Which is now permitted.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Now we can gift Atari Tokens to other players, this leads to a rather interesting business strategy.

    Nothing is illegal unless you get caught doing it ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Thanks for the link, but the exchange will occur entirely within the game. Or at least, the definition of 'The Game' that incorporates the Atari Token mechanism.

    That's the grey area: Does the integrated C-Store and AT currency legally constitute part of 'The Game'? How would this status be affected by the recent UI change to put AT values directly into the game instead of a separate C-Store interface?

    Atari Tokens have no intrinsic value, other than what Cryptic decide they are worth in exchange for other items of no intrinsic value. They cannot be cashed out once assigned to a game account.

    Dev Plz?


    If you use in game currency to buy Atari tokens, that should cost real world money, I think you are making a real world financial saving of real world money.

    I think this idea will just make the energy credit spammers work seem more rewarding.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I think trying any of this will lead to a world of hurt......of your bank account.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    As many have stated before me, this is much like the PLEX in EVE, which I love. I would definitely vote YES to Atari Tokens being an in-game item to facilitate their trade on the market.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    ThetaNine wrote:
    Nothing is illegal unless you get caught doing it ;)

    Wich is just about the worst excuse to do somthing illegal, I've heard.

    Of cause it is Illegal, EVEN if you don't get caught. Getting caught has nothing to do with if it is illegal or not, and hiding behind it, is exactly the reason for half the violence out there... Because they don't think they are getting caught.

    Or would you say, that if someone came up to you, beat you senceless and ran, and he'd never get caught, it would be ok with you?

    Don't bother... I wouldn belive you if you said yes.

    Illegal is Illegal.. No matter what conditons you use...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Just as several people already quoted and stated; each one of them said precisely what our CS team told me on this matter:
    You are correct, this is not allowed:

    10. Ownership/Selling of the Account or Virtual Items. Cryptic does not recognize the transfer of Accounts. You may not purchase, sell, gift or trade any Account, or offer to purchase, sell, gift or trade any Account, and any such attempt shall be null and void. Cryptic owns, has licensed, or otherwise has rights to all of the content that appears in the Game. You agree that you have no right or title in or to any such content, including the virtual goods or currency appearing or originating in the Game, Atari Tokens or any other attributes associated with the Account or stored on the Service ("Game Assets"). Cryptic does not recognize any Game Assets transfers executed outside of the Game or the purported sale, gift or trade in the "real world" of anything related to the Game. Accordingly, you may not sell Game Assets for "real" money or otherwise exchange items for value outside of the Game. Any such sale or exchange is a material breach of this Agreement for which Cryptic may (but is not obligated to) immediately suspend or terminate your account.

    http://www.startrekonline.com/terms_of_service
    The question was: Would it be allowed to sell Atari Tokens for Energy Credits to other players?
    Our answer in this: No, it is not. If you do so, you will run risk of losing your account.

    This is indeed the final word in this, as it will be handled by CS. Further questions on this is not something we can or will go into further. I can only tell you we do not allow it and what could happen if you choose to do so anyhow.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    WishStone wrote:
    Just as several people already quoted and stated; each one of them said precisely what our CS team told me on this matter:


    The question was: Would it be allowed to sell Atari Tokens for Energy Credits to other players?
    Our answer in this: No, it is not. If you do so, you will run risk of losing your account.

    This is indeed the final word in this, as it will be handled by CS. Further questions on this is not something we can or will go into further. I can only tell you we do not allow it and what could happen if you choose to do so anyhow.

    I wasn't surprised in the least that this would be the answer. This is pretty much the standard stance on the issue in every MMO I've played over the last 15 years.In every last one of them someone always asks questions like this. So I'm no longer surprised that folks expect this policy to be any different in new/young MMOs than it was in the MMO they played before this. I do realize that sometimes this question is asked by someone that has never played an MMO before.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Monthar wrote:
    I wasn't surprised in the least that this would be the answer. This is pretty much the standard stance on the issue in every MMO I've played over the last 15 years.In every last one of them someone always asks questions like this. So I'm no longer surprised that folks expect this policy to be any different in new/young MMOs than it was in the MMO they played before this. I do realize that sometimes this question is asked by someone that has never played an MMO before.

    And there are quite a few players that never played a MMO before STO (I think more so than with any other MMO at the moment).....I'm one of them. I've been here for a year now and I still go '?' with some things going on ingame and on the forums.


    But it seems obvious,even to me,that if selling energy credits for money is a 'no no' ,that it would be the same with Atari Tokens.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    WishStone wrote:
    Just as several people already quoted and stated; each one of them said precisely what our CS team told me on this matter:


    The question was: Would it be allowed to sell Atari Tokens for Energy Credits to other players?
    Our answer in this: No, it is not. If you do so, you will run risk of losing your account.

    This is indeed the final word in this, as it will be handled by CS. Further questions on this is not something we can or will go into further. I can only tell you we do not allow it and what could happen if you choose to do so anyhow.

    Not to be a smartass (had a couple of beers, far from smart) but does this not actually (reading letter of the rule) prevent gifting of the Atari Tokens in the first place? If I'm right (long shot) can I have a cookie for pointing it out?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    david26th wrote: »
    Not to be a smartass (had a couple of beers, far from smart) but does this not actually (reading letter of the rule) prevent gifting of the Atari Tokens in the first place? If I'm right (long shot) can I have a cookie for pointing it out?

    Pretty much this.... if you gift Tokens to anyone, and they ever gave you anything, it could be viewed as selling them. So much for fleet event prizes and b-day gifts... "Oh hey Jim, Happy Birthday, here have some tokens!" *banhammer'd both accounts* :mad:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    david26th wrote: »
    Not to be a smartass (had a couple of beers, far from smart) but does this not actually (reading letter of the rule) prevent gifting of the Atari Tokens in the first place? If I'm right (long shot) can I have a cookie for pointing it out?
    We will be able to tell the difference between a fleet mate or a friend getting a random gift and someone trying to run an in-game business.
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