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old and new Romulan appearance - anyone know why?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited March 2011 in Ten Forward
In the Nemesis movie, it was explained (maybe I misunderstood) that the Remans look the way they look because Romulans forced them to work in the mines.

In the more recent Star Trek movie, the Romulan villains were miners and they had an appearance that differs from the Romulans we had seen until then. They are larger and their faces do not look Vulcan or Romulan, only the ears are Romulan or Vulcan looking. In the latest STO series, we see two kinds of Romulans, the old ones and the larger ones.

So has an explanation for this "evolution" been offered somewhere? I think maybe it has to do with some Romulans being miners but I have not seen or heard an explanation. I don't think it is just that some Romulans are shaving their heads and tattooing their foreheads.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The Romulans looking different in the 2009 movie was simply a design choice. They didn't like the Romulan foreheads from the various shows, so they decided to distinguish Romulans from Vulcans by giving them tatoos instead of forehead ridges.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    A wizard did it.
    Also, more info on the remans http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Reman
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    In the Nemesis movie, it was explained (maybe I misunderstood) that the Remans look the way they look because Romulans forced them to work in the mines.

    In the more recent Star Trek movie, the Romulan villains were miners and they had an appearance that differs from the Romulans we had seen until then. They are larger and their faces do not look Vulcan or Romulan, only the ears are Romulan or Vulcan looking. In the latest STO series, we see two kinds of Romulans, the old ones and the larger ones.
    OK...Romulans and Remens are NOT the same at all, and never will be.


    Remens were used as "miners" and canon fodder per Nemesis. They were never seen anywhere prior to this movie. In other words, they were a plot device and a chance for the writer and director to make some oogly-boogly looking bad guys you could hate. They made one appearance again in the Enterprise series, but again, prior to the movie Nemesis, they are non-existant.


    Abrams Star Trek made Romulans the awesome - "don't eff with me" race they had always been prior to Nemesis, and have always been ment to be. He omitted any reference or appearance of Remens all together, and rightfully so; Romulans have never needed this sort of element to their mythos and IMO, the Remens have done nothing to add to it.


    As much as I like the lastest "weekly" episodes and how they are featuring my favorite Star Trek race, the Remen element is annoying, and something I just have to tolerate now thanks to the train wreck that was Star Trek: Nemesis.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Pollywog wrote: »
    In the Nemesis movie, it was explained (maybe I misunderstood) that the Remans look the way they look because Romulans forced them to work in the mines.

    It was never explained in Nemesis like that. All the audience is told is that the Remans are mostly miners working as slave labour, and they look like nosferatu. One was never meant to cause the other.

    As for the change in Romulan appearance in Trek XI, it's actually a return to the Romulan appearance of the original series. Pointy ears, smooth foreheads - like Vulcans.

    I think the forehead ridges of TNG Romulans might mean that some of them have Reman ancestry.. or at least some non-Romulan ancestry.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    From The commentary on Nemesis: They just evolved that way with no cross breeding.

    Mr Morbo, your thoughts?



    morbo.jpg

    EVOLUTION DOSE NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!


    but what do expect from the guys that think we are evolving into newts and males would grow nipples on their wrist if they get knocked up.:rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I think the exile vulcans found the remans when they got to romulus, and enslaved them. pretty cut and dry. The klingons have their slave race, the romulans have theirs. How else could the federation claim moral superiority when the conspire to bring an entire area of the galaxy to war? lol
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    It could maybe be something like the Xindi (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Xindi) and they are a genetically identical but seperate off-shoot of the Romulans we see in TNG/DS9.

    Or, it could be like the Klingons' forehead issue as explained in Enterprise.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The forehead tattoos themselves are explained away in the Countdown Comic as being part of a Romulan Ritual of grieving. You paint on the tattoos and you grieve, and when the tattoos have faded away and are done with, you are to be done with your grieving. Nero and his crew had them permanently etched into their flesh as a reminder that they would never be finished grieving for the loss of Romulus.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I always took the Romulans having those foreheads, because they were angry all the time. Seriously!

    But its nice we have them going back to the more vulcanesque appearance.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The remans had been mentioned in books as just being romulons on remus. their vulcan ancestors colonized the double planet system of romulus and remus. remus was a less hospitable planet, barely livable. So I had taken them as identical till nemesis came out. I can see though over the long length of time, seperate breeding, different environment, and such could definately produce the look the remans have now, from an original vulcan stock. they seem to have similiar or slightly better mental powers then the vulcans have, and the romulons seem to lack now. light sensitivity of a harsher dark environment. same pointed ears. more developed facial arches.
    so same race, different species or sub-species.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I think the reason the Remans looked different than the Romulan miners is because they were on the tidally locked (e.g. permanent darkness) Remus for thousands of years. The Romulan miners were all over the empire and traveling on ships.

    I'm perfectly fine with the explanation of Remans not appearing until Nemesis because they were essentially a slave caste largely confined to Remus. We heard they were cannon fodder in the Dominion War but there was relatively little seen of the Romulan Star Empire in DS9.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    you could always ask a romulan..although i suspect he will say "we do not talk about it to outsiders"
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The JJ Abrams Romulans are not exactly smooth headed. There's an excellent article on Ex Astris Scientia that showcases comparison pictures of the actros in and out of makeup, and one major component of them is the fact that they have a very protruding forhead brow and wide nose bridge, giving them all an aggressive, thuggish appearance without necessarily needing ridges.

    The exodus from Vulcan took place approximately 2000 years ago, not enough time for evolution to occur. The likely explaination for the Romulan's ridges is that the entire population crossbred with another species called the Debrune. Ruins of the Debrune in TNG hint as this, as well as Nero's weapon in the movie -- the spear with a trident on the end of it is a telar'n, and not just any telar'n, but the "Debrune Telar'n", a kind of holy weapon from the ruins of the Debrune civilization, and a relic of the Romulan's ancestry.

    Why the Remans look so different? - bad concept of evolution, basically.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    There's a REALLY easy explanation actually - the same explanation that the Movie/TNG Klingons REALLY have in comparison to the TOS Klingons

    They couldn't afford the prosthetic makeup at the time of the TOS to MAKE the ridges :P

    Simple as that - season 1 of TNG has so many effect and cultural changes (though the stories are pretty much the same) because Roddenberry finally got to do the stuff and effects he WANTED to do back during the TOS. As far as he was concerned the differences in appearance between TOS Klingons and TNG Klingons could be hand-waved (the guy didn't even consider the TAS canon) as effects. The TNG Klingons and Romulans appeared how HE wanted them to have appeared during the TOS and (as far as his directors eye was concerned) that was how they always looked

    It's the fans and the Enterprise Series fumbling for ratings that added in all this convoluted hyper-dexterous-maxi-hatchi-womble evolution theories over the years that make no sense unless you consider the real story of; NO budget whatsoever... and yet he still made such awesome stories :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The forehead tattoos themselves are explained away in the Countdown Comic as being part of a Romulan Ritual of grieving. You paint on the tattoos and you grieve, and when the tattoos have faded away and are done with, you are to be done with your grieving. Nero and his crew had them permanently etched into their flesh as a reminder that they would never be finished grieving for the loss of Romulus.

    I never knew that. I like it. :)

    I found the Romulan dialogue to be very badly written in ST XI. 'Hi Christopher' *shudders*

    I suppose they were miners and were portrayed as brutish, because, you know, miners are like that.:rolleyes:

    The appearance of the Romulans isn't really what appeals to me about them. I actually prefer TOS style (no bowl cuts). It's more about their imperialistic arrogance and parallels to our Roman Empire that I like about them.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Igard81 wrote: »
    I suppose they were miners and were portrayed as brutish, because, you know, miners are like that.:rolleyes:

    The appearance of the Romulans isn't really what appeals to me about them. I actually prefer TOS style (no bowl cuts). It's more about their imperialistic arrogance and parallels to our Roman Empire that I like about them.

    Agreed on both points: miners in real life aren't generally brutes, and I much prefer the TOS appearance of Romulans to the strange thug-ridges/Neanderthal brow.

    I like the Romulan's as Roman-like and mysterious. I like them being devious, advanced, powerful, and never showing their true strength or intentions. I love their ship designs and their mega-powerful plasma weapons (more TOS than TNG I guess, in TNG they had the beautiful Warbird that never really got to show its power).

    I do not like the prosthetics or the TNG uniforms.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Grig32 wrote: »
    There's a REALLY easy explanation actually - the same explanation that the Movie/TNG Klingons REALLY have in comparison to the TOS Klingons

    They couldn't afford the prosthetic makeup at the time of the TOS to MAKE the ridges :P

    Simple as that - season 1 of TNG has so many effect and cultural changes (though the stories are pretty much the same) because Roddenberry finally got to do the stuff and effects he WANTED to do back during the TOS. As far as he was concerned the differences in appearance between TOS Klingons and TNG Klingons could be hand-waved (the guy didn't even consider the TAS canon) as effects. The TNG Klingons and Romulans appeared how HE wanted them to have appeared during the TOS and (as far as his directors eye was concerned) that was how they always looked

    It's the fans and the Enterprise Series fumbling for ratings that added in all this convoluted hyper-dexterous-maxi-hatchi-womble evolution theories over the years that make no sense unless you consider the real story of; NO budget whatsoever... and yet he still made such awesome stories :D

    That doesnt make sense if you actually read what the OP is asking. He is asking why Roms went from ridges in TNG to no ridges in the 2009 movie and some in STO. That was not a change that had anything to do with budget.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Sorry, thought we were talking about the change from TOS to TNG - wasn't trying to be snotty or anything, just saying that it was budgetary reasons... I think the reasons they went without ridges for 2009 is because JJ just didn't like 'em - same with the weird Gorn stuff he made
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Grig32 wrote: »
    Sorry, thought we were talking about the change from TOS to TNG - wasn't trying to be snotty or anything, just saying that it was budgetary reasons... I think the reasons they went without ridges for 2009 is because JJ just didn't like 'em - same with the weird Gorn stuff he made

    I dont think I've seen any of that. Link?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Atheistic!

    It's an Original Series movie reboot, TOS romulans did not have forehead ridges. Besides, TNG Romulans just looked goofy with the forehead ridges. TOS ones were the best!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    forresto wrote: »
    It's an Original Series movie reboot, TOS romulans did not have forehead ridges.

    Considering how they changed the look of everything else from TOS, I'm not sure what point your trying to make.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Perhaps the smooth headed Rommies were like that the same reason as the Klingons and how a book explained the Trill look change.

    The Klingon forehead virus mutated and affected some Romulans and some Trills.

    That is why Romulans and Vulcans can be interchanged even with the weird forehead changes.

    In "The Gambit", a Romulan has no forehead

    In, "Reunification", no one is suspicious of smooth headed Vulcan.


    Ex Astris Scientia has this fantastic article

    Romulans

    and this group of articles: Inconsistencies
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Considering how they changed the look of everything else from TOS, I'm not sure what point your trying to make.

    Not really. They modified and stylized things but not really changed anything. The Gorn, Klingons, Salt monster don't really count as they were in a deleted scene and they will probably be changed if in a sequel.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I don't like the Romulans with the head things as much as the Vulcan looking ones.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Found it

    http://img.trekmovie.com/images/celeb/newgorn1.jpg

    That's supposed to be a 2009 Gorn

    And the TNG Romulans had ridges because Roddenberry and the team of producers wanted them to - same reason Klingons had head-plates. He wanted the aliens to look more alien and to contrast them against the Vulcans
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    forresto wrote: »
    Not really. They modified and stylized things but not really changed anything.

    Oh really? Did you see the Enterprise? Considering what a big change they made there, I fail to see how your argument that they were copying the look of the Roms in TOS is consistent with the rest of the movie.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Its possible, and even a theory out there, that evolution makes "jumps" with no "in-between" phase.

    I like the TNG Rommies. An easy way, and possibly the easiest story way, is to say that the ridged brow rommies, and the smooth headed rommies are akin to the differences between black and white people. Physically different in some respects, but the same species for all intents and purposes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Grig32 wrote: »
    Found it

    http://img.trekmovie.com/images/celeb/newgorn1.jpg

    That's supposed to be a 2009 Gorn

    Thats pretty interesting. Thanks for finding that :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Oh really? Did you see the Enterprise? Considering what a big change they made there, I fail to see how your argument that they were copying the look of the Roms in TOS is consistent with the rest of the movie.

    It would be a different person that did the Romulans. It would most likely have been the costume designer and not a CGI designer and concept artist that dealt with the Enterprise.Trust me, I do a lot of stuff like that and it would have been a different team.

    Notice that the uniforms and such stayed pretty true to the Original Series just new.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Grig32 wrote: »
    Found it

    http://img.trekmovie.com/images/celeb/newgorn1.jpg

    That's supposed to be a 2009 Gorn

    And the TNG Romulans had ridges because Roddenberry and the team of producers wanted them to - same reason Klingons had head-plates. He wanted the aliens to look more alien and to contrast them against the Vulcans

    Ugh :eek:

    No no no no no no.

    That kinda makes the Gorn a little less unique in appearence don't ya think?
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