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Future Puzzles of STO: Avoid basic math.

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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Of course it's easy to complain about the basic math used as one part of the larger puzzle of getting your ship free. Just as it's easy to complain about the basic searching for and scanning blinking plants to heal your traveling companion to get across the desert. Taken individually most any task in any game is not fun. What matters is whether the combination of all the tasks was fun or not.

    Coliseum was fun, and that's all that mattered; and removing the basic math wouldn't have made the mission any better, although it wouldn't have made it any less fun either. Conclusion: this thread is just about nit-picking a fun mission to death.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Inspired wrote: »
    Of course it's easy to complain about the basic math used as one part of the larger puzzle of getting your ship free. Just as it's easy to complain about the basic searching for and scanning blinking plants to heal your traveling companion to get across the desert. Taken individually most any task in any game is not fun. What matters is whether the combination of all the tasks was fun or not.

    Coliseum was fun, and that's all that mattered; and removing the basic math wouldn't have made the mission any better, although it wouldn't have made it any less fun either. Conclusion: this thread is just about nit-picking a fun mission to death.

    And what people are saying is that various elements did detract from their enjoyment of the overall mission. An episode may be greater than the sum of its parts, but annoying parts still detract.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    and if basic math skills fail you, then there is always the alt-tab to your computers calculator.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    galbock wrote:
    and if basic math skills fail you, then there is always the alt-tab to your computers calculator.

    :rolleyes: It's not too hard, it's too easy and straightforward. It's busywork, not a puzzle.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    And what people are saying is that various elements did detract from their enjoyment of the overall mission. An episode may be greater than the sum of its parts, but annoying parts still detract.

    I get what people are saying, except demanding that 100% of the components are perfect or even nearly so is not realistic, it is however, nit-picking. And complaints that something that takes in the range of a minute in a fairly lengthy mission is annoying and detracts from the mission seem unwarranted.

    I also understand that some people want complicated puzzles that not everyone can solve, I also like such puzzles, but that's just not going to happen in a casual friendly game like STO that's not based on solving such puzzles.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I *tried* to do all of the equations by hand the first time through, just to prove to myself that I had not forgotten all of the math skills I ever learned. I was going great, right up to the first division problem. Then I broke out the calculator.

    I suppose my Vulcan would have known all of the answers on sight.

    As for me, I note with a touch of sadness that my "brain atrophy" is more advanced at my age than I thought it was. :(

    So, allow me to say that I don't mind breaking out a calculator occasionally. But put Calculus in there and I'm totally guessing all the way. I don't have a "math brain" and never did. That's no excuse for allowing my basic math skills to rot.

    Thanks for helping me realize I could use a refresher, Cryptic! :D

    I do enjoy logic puzzles. And since this puzzle could have been solved through trial and error just as well as through math, no harm done.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    This reminds me of the DLAB when I took it (The Defense Language Aptitude Battery).

    They give you grammar rules, stacking one on top of another as the test goes along, and you have to remember them in deciphering an entirely fictional language.

    I remember enjoying the test (and did well enough to qualify for linguistics but it was the puzzle, not the score that I enjoyed).


    If you had failed the test would you have still enjoyed the process as much? (Just curious - no offense intended). In a game if a person fails to solve a puzzle what happens to them next? Frustration, annoyance and possibly anger. Don't care? You should, their money helps support your game. People's memory of bad things can color attitudes for a while.

    I freely admit I only successfully made that arcade manoevering in a ship once in a previous episode. The rest of the time I simply used the (hurridly inserted) alternate entry method but I still feel bad I wasn't able to handle the hand/eye co-ordination needed. It actually embarressed me to use it each time for my alts, taking away some of the immersion I truly enjoy in an RPG game.

    Just thought I would mention why the 'puzzles' might be simplistic for many of the players.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    2) Voltorb Flip. Yeah, a Pokemon minigame in SoulSilver and HeartGold based off a real game that I don't know the name of. It's technically math but it's fun as heck math (unlike this game).

    Friggen Voltorb flip, I despise it, all because someone got their panties in a twist about their being slot machines in those games, I swear, the slots better return in Black/White.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The problem with the mission isn't the use of math, it's the fact that an advanced computer was unable to figure this out, and instead it required someone with 5th grade math knowledge to to help it out.

    God help anyone who loaded these basic math problems into that duotronic computer from the Drozana mission.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Sure the simple math was a little annoying, but I chose to view it as a baby step into better and more fun/complicated/fulfilling puzzles. From what I have noticed (yes Nagus, this is only my opinion) Cryptic tries something new-ish, we give feed back and then they improve it.
    Naive?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    garryst6 wrote: »
    If you had failed the test would you have still enjoyed the process as much? (Just curious - no offense intended). In a game if a person fails to solve a puzzle what happens to them next? Frustration, annoyance and possibly anger. Don't care? You should, their money helps support your game. People's memory of bad things can color attitudes for a

    I actually enjoyed that test: a good puzzle is one you want to come back to for more, especially if it kicked my TRIBBLE the first time.

    In fact, there are probably examples of the DLAB out there and they'd work very well for those Picard+tamarian moments of figuring something new and challenging. That episode reminded me a lot of the test and I'd love to see a similar moment in game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Here's an example of some non math puzzles:
    http://swg.wikia.com/wiki/Meatlump_Theme_Park_Puzzle_Guides

    Basic and simple. Maybe it'll spark a few ideas.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I'd definitely love to see more intellectual challenges in the game. However, I do agree that the "basic math" puzzle just didn't feel like a puzzle. It wasn't something you had to really think about, it was just going through some the motions.

    I think main objective puzzles should be doable by the average player (however that is determined) but there is definitely some opportunity for optional objectives to really up the challenge level intellectually speaking.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    There's no rule against animated gif avatars

    http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3398141#post3398141
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    What I would have changed about this puzzle is to not have your away team beam over with you.

    I think it strange that I am beaming over with my Science Officer and Chief Engineer, yet I am the one having to do all the work. Story-wise, it would make more sense to say that the dampening field beam holding your ship and draining power from it meant you only had enough power to beam 1 person over to the sattellite - you, the captain. Then it would make sense that we as Captains have to do all the puzzle solving.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011

    To be fair I checked the rules and there doesn't seem to be a rule against it and WishStone only says to report it when someone does it. Not that it's against the rules. ;)
    Maybe they'll have parties with those who are reported.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    This shift of topic is a puzzle unto itself.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I don't find basic math fun. <big snip>


    The puzzles in STO... aren't really fun.

    (P.S. Despite the horrible puzzle in the last episode it was still probably my favorite episode due to the arena)

    Personally, with all due respect to the OP, I hold the opposite view. I enjoy the puzzles in STO. Whilst I appreciate that to the OP and those like them, the maths aspects of some puzzles may be basic, for others, like myself, the mathematics can border on being frustrating. Regardless it doesn't take away from my enjoyment of the game. I like the puzzles in STO; it's one of the things (along with diplomacy and exploration) that make the game fun for me. Having said that, I'm the first one to admit, that I have no maths skills, and my science knowledge is next to non-existent.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Yah I too was really disappointed in the first act of the episode. The puzzle was mindless; I wouldn't even call it a puzzle - just a speed bump to slow down the fun. It wasn't basic math, it was basic arithmetic.
    :(

    But I think a great way to solve it in the future is to offer more complex puzzles yes, but always give an option for one of your away team members to solve it instead of you. Maybe there is a time delay of a few minutes if you let the b.o. solve, thus encouraging you to at least try and solve it yourself.

    I also don't see why the puzzles need to be static; it would be super cool if they were designed to have some random elements that vary from player to player.

    Just some thoughts.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    One thing the devs should avoid: unintuitive adventure-game puzzles, like those early 90s SCUMM ones with water bukcets and sticks being combined in some strange, absurd fashion to solve a puzzle.

    Less of that and more sensible ones: like needing to craft a key for an ancient temple from nearby ore.

    Lol, you're clearly talking about Monkey Island and things such as using a monkey as a makeshift wrench (took me weeks to figure out, in an era when "Internet" was nothing but a fancy word heard in university-circles) :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    galbock wrote:
    and if basic math skills fail you, then there is always the alt-tab to your computers calculator.

    Or just brute force it. The numbers turn green when you get the right one.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I will be flamed out of existence for this but I hope the next puzzle makes the user correctly use the following words in a sentence: "canon", "cannon", "your", "you're", "there", "their", "they're"

    There are probably others.

    I'm only half joking too :(

    As for the math puzzles, I didn't find them hard and I don't mind them. Coliseum was my favorite mission in STO and I hope to see more missions like this. The inclusion of basic math was not a detriment to the mission.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Yes, the math puzzle did make me massively depressed...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Alas..
    She always said I would use the things she taught me in real life......

    I thought she was full of it...

    until the day I tried "The Arena"

    I made it 31 years without using anything she taught me.....

    curses......

    now I have to re-evaluate everything I ever learned in school.....

    GRRRRRRRRRRRR
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Speaking as a former math teacher I'm ashamed of all of you :p

    This is Star Trek, I expect the next math puzzle to be at least Calculus. If Jake Sisko can pass one at the age of 15 then it should be considered fair game for basic math puzzles.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Briard wrote:
    "some people don't have fast reflexes so Halo needs to be slowed down/made easier/enemies don't shoot".
    Yeah, I agree.

    Turn Based 3D Shooter. It's the only way to be sure.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I failed math in (what i geuss in us terms would equal) college...

    Theese math things were simple, but i hate math... That should make my opinion on the subject clear.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    y'know you can solve the puzzle (just as quickly if not quicker) without doing the math at all...

    the fact the number turns green when its correct puts start trek online maths on a somwhat easier level that RL maths tbh :P
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    m.mcnaught wrote:
    y'know you can solve the puzzle (just as quickly if not quicker) without doing the math at all...

    the fact the number turns green when its correct puts start trek online maths on a somwhat easier level that RL maths tbh :P

    Being too simple and straightforward is the whole point of the complaint. I've yet to see anyone say they had trouble doing the math.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    h3llr4iser wrote: »
    Lol, you're clearly talking about Monkey Island and things such as using a monkey as a makeshift wrench (took me weeks to figure out, in an era when "Internet" was nothing but a fancy word heard in university-circles) :D
    I love Lucasarts' adventure games but many of them had puzzles-designed-for-the-retail-strategy-guide-syndrome.

    I swear: some game puzzles are designed for GameFAQs advertising revenue.
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