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Concerns about Season 4's exploration revamp

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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Having though about this for the night I have come to some conclusions:

    Cultural exploration is exploration to a degree so I can see their initial thought process working. It will need a lot of diversity to make it good but it could work.

    Here are some thought though that will help:

    1) Add doors to all Deep Space walls to a final exploration sector one that exitst outside of the current map. It basically representd well unexplored deep space.

    2) Exploring in space has always meant not only finding new worlds but also new and interesting space phenomae as well. I want to explore spatial rifts, time loops, dark nebula, rogue stars, unusual comets and the like. Why must it always be empty bases, ancient ruins, or interesting plant life. Give us more space in space exploration.

    3) Foundry can help.. a lot. Within this deep space exploraton zone put random doors that lead to random Foundry missions. Missions designatged by their creators to be exploration type missions. I guarentee you your population of players can keep it fresh and interesting.

    Do this and exploration can be truly epic.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Yes and no.

    Games with lame random generation of content:
    • STO
    • Hellgate: London
    • A good portion of the rogue-like derivatives

    You forgot:
    City of Heroes
    EVE Online
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I'd like less combat missions/situations in the exploration areas and more first contact/diplomacy style missions, like the Bajor sector one.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    We met the Ferengi in TNG but it wasn't until DS9 that we explored them.

    Exploration isn't a boolean switch that's either on or off: it's a snowflake with many nooks and crannies.

    Just meeting something for the first time isn't exploring any more than shaking someone's hand on a first date is foreplay. Setting foot on the moon isn't fully exploring it either - we haven't even explored the barren moon above our heads fully.

    Both finding a new culture and learning about it is exploration.

    Jesus H Christ man. This isnt that hard to understand. When people talk about Star Trek and exploration, they are talking about 'boldly going where no man has gone before', not getting to know a Ferengi better. By your logic that would mean every single mission in the game is "exploration" because your learning more about the characters in the story than you knew before. And since that is "exploration"(acording to you), I guess we dont even need star clusters at all do we? Please give it a rest with that silly argument. Nobody is buying it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    This discussion reminds me of that age old mmo dilema, where you have a quest to kill a certain npc. Yeah...how can you reconcile the fact that a million players have killed the same npc.

    You reconcile it with the fact that it is a a game and not reality. In the same way we can not expect a dev team to make customized content for a million different players, its just not realistic.

    If i see a new sector for the first time, for me, im exploring. The fact that someone else saw it first doesnt negate my personal experience of exploration. Atleast thats how i feel about it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    This discussion reminds me of that age old mmo dilema, where you have a quest to kill a certain npc. Yeah...how can you reconcile the fact that a million players have killed the same npc.

    You reconcile it with the fact that it is a a game and not reality. In the same way we can not expect a dev team to make customized content for a million different players, its just not realistic.

    If i see a new sector for the first time, for me, im exploring. The fact that someone else saw it first doesnt negate my personal experience of exploration. Atleast thats how i feel about it.

    I think you misunderstand the discussion. I havent seen anyone say that exploration missions should be unique to evey individual player. Rather, that the races we encounter shouldnt already know about Starfleet and the Federation the first time we encounter them.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    The main issue with exploration as it's implememnted now:

    - It adds no new locales to the game (and yes, this is a very tricky issue to even attempt to pull off); BUT, if somehow Exploration would open 'arms' of a star cluster that could hold 'discovered' content even for a while; and allow the 'explorer to announce the location in game so other player could got experience an adventure ther or something...even if they had to be wiped every 30 days or some designated timeframe (a storm or other Galactic Anomoly makes that arm no longer reachable, or some mechanioc. Yes, in the end it does continue to make things static to s point, but at leat we have some sense of 'new exploration'.

    - We do have some decent mission templates, but we need MORE; and I think occassionally a story type regular mission (or a few) thrown in that could randomly appear for players (and maybe grow these by one or two a season - OR - if you see some good Foundry content; ask the author if he's be up for having his mission moved; retooled a but to fit the relocation, and added to the random exploration story pool. Again anyone who does enough exploration will see, and experience pattens and mission repeats, but the goal would be to expand the amount of random exploration content available so you don't get repeats evry other Exploration mission.

    - Allow the player some control over the type of Exploration ie - set up catagories that might skew the random selection to giove more a possibilty of getting REploration mission of a certain type; BUT allow the possibilty of the other mission types being assigned as Exploration should still hold that element of surprise.

    - Allow random 'First Contact Missions to appear in Exploration areas for players of the proper diplomatic rank - in other words - don't make Ambassador Jiro the ONLY source for First Contact mission assignments. Also, regarding First contant missions in general, it might be nice to spicethem up by adding MORE then one map for them to occur in; and maybe have the occassional 'non-standard' First contact, where maybe you have to save the alien ship from an attack BEFORE you're allowed to do the First Contact portion; or beam over and assist with repairs or provide medical assistance after an accidemt; etc. befopre everyone beans over to the Federation player's ship lounge to do the Fisrst Contact (and not all the time, but on accassion, something like this happens before the First contact mission proper takes place.

    Honestly, except fpor the first suggestion, I'm trying to suggest ways the current Exploration system could be tweaked or expanded to make it less repetative and morre random/tailored to a player over time, then it is now.

    But, in the end, honestly, if you've watched Star Trek (any series) you'd realize the the "Explore new Worlds" was just the hook to start an episode. Yes, Kirk, Picard, et. al. often started with:

    "We're been assigned to explore/study <inset sector/phenomena here>..."

    BUT, 5 minutes in, the above always lead to another encounter or story that was the REAL focus of an episopde. I can't remember many instances where what they started to study a Nebula, Star, whatever - where that was what they did for the remainder of an e****ode.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I would be in favor of an overhaul of the Genesis system and then a complete nuke and regeneration of the exploration maps. We still need a certain amount of quasi-random content, but we don't need the persistent bugs or the static mission types or the gross inconsistencies (like colony buildings on an uninhabited planet, or assimilated landscape on a planet with a pre-warp culture and we're supposed to avoid contact with the natives?)

    Something else, too. There is a lot of mention in-game of ancient, extinct or missing civilizations that the factions have no contact with (like the Tkon). But very little actual discovery involved. I would love to see exploration storylines that involve some of those, along similar lines like what was done with the Deferi missions and the Preservers. Exploring ruins is very Trek. Also things like, what happened to the Organians?

    As a high-level exploration mission, I'd like to go find the "machine planet" where V'ger was upgraded. :)

    I also highly endorse the idea of exploration missions that involve weird space/time anomalies.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Exploration in Star Trek includes star charting, surveying new planets or astronomical phenomena, first contacts, establishing diplomatic or trade relations, flying the flag in contested areas, mediation, visiting outposts and deep space science stations, anti-piracy, rescues, etc. I would hope STO gets to a point where we have some of all of this.

    I like dstahl's concept, but I hope this is in addition to Genesis and that Cryptic still actively develops Genesis. Covering all kinds of exploration requires both authored and generated content. We will have to judge the authored content on a case-by-case basis, but there are a few things I'd like to see in Genesis missions sooner rather than later:

    * Some kind of mini-game, branching decision tree, or beat-the-clock mechanic that varies the degree of success and results of the mission; e.g., repair the Base could require you to start in a control room, find and configure a series of other consoles in a particular order, and have to abandon or destroy the base if unsuccessful. Challenge should scale with the player's difficulty setting.

    * In scan-the-resource missions where enemies appear: a chance to negotiate, bluff, or misdirect the hostile faction out of combat; a timer where the enemy faction may complete the mission before you; space combat before or after, perhaps affected by the first two points; cases where sharing or giving the other faction the resource is a win (e.g., them needing the unusual flora to cure a disease affecting their people).

    * I'd like my captain to build reputation with the various minor factions by completing missions for or against them and have them react differently to me because of it. I'd really like if sometimes factions came into conflict, and how I resolve that mission both depends on and affect my relations with both factions; e.g., maybe they both like me and I can mediate a peaceful response, or maybe they both hate me and decide to unite against a common foe.

    * Science-oriented missions, like investigating unusual astronomical phenomena or events. Suns still nova or collapse into black holes, strange kinds of nebulae abound, pulsars may still be important navigational aids, asteroids still threaten populated worlds, etc. I would love more Space and Science in STO because that's always been my big draw of science fiction.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    It seems we all have good concepts as to how the revamp should work; I for one would like to see large clusters that work a tiling world principle that 'seems' like it has no end to simulate deep space.

    Within this tiling map, you'll have both set destinations and random systems/anomalies as per what has been discussed here. Leaving the map won't be done from the edge but rather from an area of clear space where the player spawns in the tiling map, much like in the foundry where we have to reach an area of space to proceed with a mission.

    The systems will have a combination of recurring species and random encounters with all new aliens; much like in the actual TV series where you have semi-regulars like the klingons and one-time/first contact encounters.

    Within this tiling map I'd like to see all kinds of eye candy to simulate deep space, much like you would see in external shots of the ship in Star Trek Voyager when they were entering a new area of space.
    You would have dusty hydrogen clouds, nebula, comets and asteroids, all placed procedurally and to varying concentrations according to the tile set for that region (Whether B-Tran or the Rolor Nebula).

    This is all conjecture of course because I don't think anyone has asked whether cryptic's engine supports a tiling map design.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I would like to see more complexity added to exploration clusters. I think each area should be controlled/inhabited by an alien culture that starts out neutral/wary of you. The choices you make interacting with them will determine how they will treat you on future visits.

    The complicated part comes in where lets say two alien factions are fighting each other and one or the other asks for help. Do you take sides? This may raise your standing with one side and lower it for the other, not to mention your diplomatic standing with the FDC (as it would more than likely violate the Prime Directive). Or perhaps you can mediate and resolve the conflict to the benefit of both sides (while gaining brownie points with FDC).

    This is but one example of a possible exploration cluster mission that I think is not only more fun then what we currently have, but more "Trek"as well.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    considering most of this so called unexplored star clusters have the exact same bad guys in etc of the "randomly" generated systems ... im not seeing this as a loss rather then a improvement
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    this isn't going to end well.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Foundry. Explore strange new worlds there. The random generation of explorable content can never match any demands. It just sucks compared to scripted stuff.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Could somone summarize how the new system is going to work? I read one of the Devs comments on page 1 that once we found an alien race, they would stay there and we could continue to interact with them. Which is interesting, but will our discoveries be unique to us, or will 10000 players be able to "discover" the same world over and over again?

    One of the critical themes of Star Trek is discovering new life and new civilizations. You can't do that with static exploration. Players need to be able to find new places and new things. I would love to see instanced sectors you can enter through wormholes, with random content.

    I don't mean to complain, I just don't want the new exploration revamp to end up less dynamic than the one currently implemented.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    What I want is the exploration system the devs used to talk about long before launch. Where we could go out to a Genesis system, talk to a new alien species, cultivate a relationship with them over time, and maybe eventually even have a member of that species join your crew. It's too bad that original version didn't quite make it into the game as intended.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    What I want is the exploration system the devs used to talk about long before launch. Where we could go out to a Genesis system, talk to a new alien species, cultivate a relationship with them over time, and maybe eventually even have a member of that species join your crew. It's too bad that original version didn't quite make it into the game as intended.

    This actually sounds a lot like what they want to implement now, minus the BO aspect.

    It would be nice of this exploration aspect was tied into territory control in that everything outside of official borders was open space that fleets could explore/colonize.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    HerbieZ wrote: »
    Do whatever you need to do Cryptic, but please for the love of V'ger, remove one map:

    It's foggy.
    It's raining.
    The terrain is extremely hilly grassland.
    I have to find 4x Medical supplies.
    One is always buried so far into the ground i can't reach it.
    When i reach combat, i find most of my crew are for some reason, 100 meters BELOW me.

    You know the map i mean. Murder it with a spoon.

    I know the exact map you're talking about. The Genesis system duplicated and spread that evil combo of terrain, weather and bugs throughout the stars. I ran into them often and been bug reporting them since launch.

    Early last year I left one in my mission list to see if it ever gets fixed. Months and months passed and same problems. I even PM'd a GM about it and gave him a couple Ticket ID's. More months and months pass - I check the mission again and same damn bugs. Finally I gave up and just deleted the mission from my list.

    And don't get me started about KDF Outdoors Ground Clusters that have bugged scanning.

    These "exploration" maps just need to be nuked.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Warning: This started off as a bunch of notes, and turned into a poorly formatted rambling epic. There's some good stuff here, trust me!

    Dwarf Fortress can procedurally generate an entire world in a few minutes. With terrain, history, legends, etc. etc.

    So, how could this be used as a base for STO exploration? For what it's worth, here's my ideas:

    By flying out to the edge of the currently explored area, new unexplored sectors will be created. These cannot be entered until a probe has been sent in to 'investigate'. A probe can take up to 24 hours to finish investigating the area, giving the backend content generation tools plenty of time to work their magic.

    Once a probe has been launched, the sector is procedurally generated; creating stars, solar systems and random anomalies. Each planet in each system will also be generated from scratch, with unique terrain and texturemap. Most planets will be uninhabitable, but can still be plundered for resources or scientific knowledge. There will, of course, be plenty of Class-M planets.

    Class-M planets do not necessarily have to have a sentient population. They could just contain wild flora and wilder fauna.

    Otherwise, the overall 'tech level' of the sentient population will also be procedurally generated, along with physical appearance. A few scientific cues can be taken, based on the physical attributes of the planet. e.g. The population of a high-gravity world would be naturally stockier.

    A planet can have multiple cultures - but by the time they reach the 'Warp Capable' level, it can be assumed there is one dominant culture. Each culture will have traits indicating the type of people they are; Isolationist, Expansionist, Stubborn, Violent, Curious, etc. (Again taking cues from the planet's attributes.)

    The history of the planet will then be generated, giving reason for the interplay between the planet's cultures. The planet's interaction with neighbouring planets, systems and sectors will also be taken into consideration. (If an existing neighbour Sector contains an Expansionist culture, they may be encroaching, for example.)

    Once we have determined the cultures contained within a Sector, plot points can be generated. These will be the entry points into a dynamic system that will grow and evolve depending on player involvement.

    At the end of this long process, we will have a Sector that's packed full of Systems, Planets, Cultures, and Plot Points. Only then will the probe return and the Sector be opened for exploration. (If one player is already probing a sector, other players will find their own probes to that sector coming back sooner.)

    Players exploring the sector for the first time will find a number of appropriate plot points. Missions will be simple - scanning planets to catalogue them; maybe the occasional deep space encounter with the local pirates.

    Plot points will advance as your faction will begin to expand their influence within the Sector. If a Federation player scans a planet and discovers a primative culture, then other players will receive missions to investigate the culture further. Perhaps to the point of escorting a specialist anthropology team to the planet to set up a duckblind.

    Likewise, if an uninhabitable planet is scanned and discovered to be rich in decalithium, other missions would be generated to explore the planet further to find the richest deposits, and to help set up a mining colony.

    At the point where a Warp Capable culture is discovered, high-profile diplomatic missions will be made available to initiate First Contact.

    Every plot point will have twists - random little problems which may crop up in the finest of Trek tradition. Twists in turn will have more twists. These twists will be driven from the data created during the probing sequence. Perhaps that Curious culture has discovered the duckblind. Perhaps some Violent pirates are raiding the Mining colony. Perhaps the First Contact didn't go as well as hoped due to a secret lurking in the planet's history.

    Or perhaps the opposing player faction(s) are interfering with your own faction's plans by supplying a primitive culture with advanced technology, or attacking supply convoys.

    New plot points will be generated every few days, depending how players deal with the current missions.

    The overall metagame is to expand your own faction's sphere of influence in the new sectors, by peaceful means or otherwise. Faction conflict can occur in a passive agressive PVE form, or through direct but voluntary PVP involvement. It's a big galaxy - there's room for both.

    Fleets will be able to reinforce their faction's influence by building Starbases in these new frontiers. In turn affecting the geopolitical situation and creating new Plot Points for other players to resolve.

    The challenge here is to make the Plot Points as interesting and engaging as possible, and find a way of concurrently generating them for all explored sectors.

    It seems simple enough, in theory... ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Yes, there are maps that been out since beta that are still bugged.

    For Federaiton, its the Medical Crate Mission. Where BOFFs and NPCs fall under the world. Fortunately it's doable to solo.

    For Klingons, it's a weapon crate mission where there is no 5th crate to destroy.



    But hopefully we will get real exploration that will do without much of the current "exploration" missions.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Well I can throw examples of games with good exploration however that doesn't mean they'll work with STO.

    Minecraft is one. I don't think it would fit though.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Why not? Once someone explores something in real life and in Star Trek it generally stays explored.

    If there's a star cluster out there with a set collection of aliens, what's going to set them apart is that they're going to be aliens that the player hasn't heard of upon entering that system for the first time. Exploration isn't just about initial discovery; it's also about learning more and digging deeper about the things you know are already out there.

    I personally prefer an exploration system that lets me learn more about the new aliens I encounter vs. only making superficial visits to randomly generated portraits over and over again.

    Theres two types of exploration:

    Discovery-exploration, where you go out and you try to find stuff that hasnt been found yet. "Discovering new civilizations, to boldy go where no Andorian has gone before" Thats exploration.

    The theres Wandering-Exploration, where you just go out to explore the known universe and visiting strange new-to-that-person worlds because they are there. Exploration for the sake of seeing something new.

    I personally like both types. But for Exploration zones I would like more of the Discovery-Exploration.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Why not? Once someone explores something in real life and in Star Trek it generally stays explored.

    If there's a star cluster out there with a set collection of aliens, what's going to set them apart is that they're going to be aliens that the player hasn't heard of upon entering that system for the first time. Exploration isn't just about initial discovery; it's also about learning more and digging deeper about the things you know are already out there.

    I personally prefer an exploration system that lets me learn more about the new aliens I encounter vs. only making superficial visits to randomly generated portraits over and over again.

    Give those maps a "Fog of War".

    What makes people explore, even on something as static as WoW is that they don't know what's there. The world map has areas that are blank until the player enters them and explores them.
    This gives the illusion that the player is going into the Unknown with minimal effort.

    Also, Randomly generate say... 500 systems for the whole "Deep Space" area. They don't have to have system space associated with them but just being there and being able to have the player "scan" them to bring up the info would be great.

    So ex:

    Player Enters Deep Space Exploration Sector.
    Player's map is blank except for the immediate area.
    Player flies through "north" and finds a sun with 3 planets revolving around it. (in sector space).
    Player scans system.
    Info box about system pops up saying how many planets, what kind of planets, what kind of star system, ect...
    Player get's a reward for scanning a new system/space object.
    If missions are possible, player get's the option to "look closer".
    System names are randomly generated alpha-numeric characters. Or use the system that real astronomers use. We don't have to name every single star system or nebula we visit.

    Add in Nebula and anomolies (that give crafting data).

    I'm sure the community could easily create enough descriptions or even have them randomly generated.

    So...
    Star Variables:
    Name
    Color
    Size
    Planets

    Planet 1 Variables
    Size
    Texture (purely for the look)
    Orbital period
    Class
    Life
    Atmosphere Contents
    Civilization

    And from there we have our info.
    Star - Red Giant with 3 planets orbiting.
    Planet 1 -
    Classification: D Class
    Orbital Period: .3 Years
    Atmosphere: None
    Life: None
    Civilization: None.

    Planet 2 -
    Classification: M Class
    Orbital Period: 1.2 Years
    Atmosphere: Oxygen, Nitrogen, Methane, Florine.
    Life: High levels of plant and animal life.
    Civilization: Tribal.

    I don't know how the models for systems in sector space are done but if they can be made dynamic, it may be a good idea.

    Obviously rules would need to be built so that you don't have a Class D Planet with an Oxygen, Sulfur atmosphere or a planet on the outer area have warmer temperatures than a planet closer to the star. But hell, I could write up a quick script to pull such information from a database in a week. And if I can, I'm sure you guys can do it better. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Some of the random alien it chucks out makes me laugh though. I don't know if they are developer made or not but there is one planet i was fighting people that looked like batman. Think they were called Kloxnoks or something. On a good note, it appeared to be a sunny day in a nice flat woodland, so i wasn't miffed :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    So now grinding my way through the "diplomacy" system will be limited to dailies... yay...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    1. Give us an empty sector with an cosmic anomalie, like the expanse, and a space station to start.
    2. Make exploration step by step - you can choose one or two directions per sector.
    3. You can only go to next sector, when necessary missions are solved. You can pass the sector next time without doing the missions again.
    4. New sectors are only discovered player-wide or fleet-wide, so you will have to map the new sectors in your fleet or for yourself.
    5. Death crew members remain dead. You can refill your crew at a space station, so group playing will be necessary to come deeper in the expanse.

    Cryptic could add new hidden sectors by adding new space stations in already explored sectors, so that new crewmembers can be bought.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    heres my suggestion:

    Have each exploration nebula contain three factions.

    when players first visit the faction they are limited to orbit, and must build reputation with the faction by exploring the nebula and helping that factions colonies within it.

    as they increase in rep they earn they unlock more areas in the nebula to explore, and more areas on thier chosen factions homeworld to visit.

    as they eran rep they unlock new crafting schematics and technology.


    when they finally max out rep with a faction they are given three foundry mission slots that will allow them to add unique content to that faction, helping to tell the story and provide fresh unplayed exploration content for other player in that nebula.

    the problem with exploration now is there is no possible way to generate at random new content that has any depth. The only tool that would give us a sense of the unkown is linking foundry to exploration, take authors that consistently release quality missions and give them extra foundry slots to populate the nebulas and tell the story.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    my way of implementing an interesting exploration arc you got.

    alien encounters and anomoly encounters.

    aliens are like well aliens but you could have varying levels of technological level do from pre industrial to industrial to pre warp to just getting warp to advanced and beyond. where you wold have to consider things like the prime directive or diplomacy.

    then you got anomolys (i know i spelt that wrong) where it would be things like giant amebas. whale probes, doomsday devices and things like that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Jesus H Christ man. This isnt that hard to understand. When people talk about Star Trek and exploration, they are talking about 'boldly going where no man has gone before', not getting to know a Ferengi better. By your logic that would mean every single mission in the game is "exploration" because your learning more about the characters in the story than you knew before. And since that is "exploration"(acording to you), I guess we dont even need star clusters at all do we? Please give it a rest with that silly argument. Nobody is buying it.
    I know people mean new species but (at the time of my example) Ferengi had been brand new on TNG tthen DS9 added brand news elements, such as exploring Ferengi Culture and showing strange, new worlds like Ferenginnar. I'm not saying they're unexplored anymore - just that they were in a place in time.

    My overarching point is meeting a brand new culture and getting to know them is exploration. So is seeing new planets, new stars, and spatial anomalies. So is tagging animals and taking plant samples.

    Consider this:
    • I think everyone here felt the Dyson sphere was seen once but I doubt anyone here seriously felt like it was explored, would they?

    I could draw euler/venn diagrams for you if it would help the logic flow and clarify. :)
    Well I can throw examples of games with good exploration however that doesn't mean they'll work with STO.

    Minecraft is one. I don't think it would fit though.
    You have good point: Minecraft's implementation works better for its game. However, in terms of new terrain: each minecraft world feels different despite only having a few dozen building blocks.

    That said, producing new terrain can be time consuming for the developers. I wonder if they could turn less of the story/mission generation over to a machine and more of the terrain generation over to a machine?

    It's the machine-generate story parts and object placement that seem to cause most of the issues.

    Imagine if the game generated Champions-sized ground maps for use in missions? The same map could be use multiple times with different texturing and settings and placement in different ends and still feel fresh (and large too).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    You absolutely CANNOT mimic real exploration with a video game. At least not yet. It all has a distinctly randomly generated feel and lacks any depth when it comes to story, environments, races, etc. Why? Because it's randomly generated!

    In order to really go where no man has gone before without it feeling DULL (and it DOES) they'd have to cater to EVERYONE and design unique content for each INDIVIDUAL PERSON. There's NO WAY they can make GOOD exploration content at the massive amounts that would be needed to truly make exploration and discovery by individuals possible. Instead they can only hope to make enough so that it takes maybe a day for everything to be discovered.


    All of the examples of successful exploration games have one thing in common: A lack of depth and a randomly generated feel. The reason some work is because they're designed differently and have unique aspects. You cannot make it work for a Star Trek game where you'd hope to fly around and explore strange new worlds and new civilizations UNLESS it's basically the same way as it is currently in STO which is lackluster and honestly quiet sucky.

    It's literally impossible to meet the demands of you people from a game dev perspective unless you want them to just throw games like Minecraft in STO but that still wouldn't satisfy most people since there's no real story or depth and randomly generated stories suck.
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