The exploration content in STO was using an alpha version of the UGC tools - it was very basic UI and you had to know a lot about how the game works in order to use it effectively - BUT even at that early state of the tool - it was able to make some beautiful basic content using a single text editor interface.
If you've played tabletop rpgs, it sounds analogous to a seed generator that creates dungeon maps based on text variable inputs (while much of the generation is automated after the initial variable inputs).
Mustrum explained it effectively: the storylines and dialogue could only have been randomly selected from samples as they don't make sense - as are some of the placements of characters (remember spawns could be put below the surface of a ground map) and sometimes objectives didn't appear at all.
On a further note: Left 4 Dead uses a machine generation for many of its encounters, under the AI director. It's yet another different method of handing control over to machines and one that actually works well for that game.
If you mean adding more archetypes to the current model, I think time would be better spent making it more meaningful and deeper than providing a wider assortment of lackluster options.
There's an analogy I used to use regarding exploration.
Exploration should be like a koch snowflake which hails from fractal math (see page 3). It starts off with simple layers then builds from there.
Maybe it starts as an exploration cluster with dailes
Now add persistent zones and characters.
Now add a layer that integrates developing relationships and unlocked dailies and missions.
Now add a layer with Foundry content integration.
Now add a territory control layer.
etc.
well, truthfully your thoughts sorta ring far more true than mine. But then again, it's nice to see ideas being placed on the table and further extrapolated upon, instead of "[developer] Fix this! Make it better! Nerf this! Buff that!" that one often sees across a myriad of games.
i think yours is a good start, in all honesty at the end of the day i'd like to be able to, even at vice admiral level, go for a sojourn around the galaxy and just go "oooooh, adventure!". and while the episodic content is the main course, i think we'd like a little entree` and dessert to round out our meal o' trek, no?
edit: also what i'd actually like to see is a mission in an actual nebula, and while i dunno about the engine's performance characteristics with such things, but i'm talking nigh "pea soup" nebulae fog here. "monsters in the mist" kinda stuff.
something akin to that was done for freespace 2, severely limited visual range, sensor ghosts popping up all over the place, that kinda thing.
Thanks for finding that quote Darren, that clarifies things for me. I wasn't sure exactly how it was all put together, but it seemed like it did require some human intervention to put the missions together.
Dan seems a ok kind of guy, but has he played the game for any length of time. Yes the encounters in the exploration sectors can be similar, and most people have given up reading the text. At least you have more variety than the Defari sector. After you have played the defari sector for the 100th time it becomes automatic, and your brain switches off. Yes I know you can get 3 different missions but a tribble by any other name is still a tribble. Star clusters have the only real random missions in the game, and when you get to Vice admiral you need something to do.
Yes they do need an overhaul. Perhaps one featured race and if the Star Cluster is near Klingon space you have more chance of Klingon missions than you do of Borg. Perhaps missions like the Defari ore, in which you have to cross the sector to deliver, resuce or find out what happen to.
We will still need anomalies that give data sample, as collecting data sample for crafting would be almost impossible or at least very time consuming any other way.
Thanks for finding that quote Darren, that clarifies things for me. I wasn't sure exactly how it was all put together, but it seemed like it did require some human intervention to put the missions together.
It requires some but, as a fellow player, you've probably seen some of the machine-generated parts around the seams (borg dynasties, kitbash corridor generation, etc.).
It's not generated all at once (like most 4x strategy games) nor is it creating one map at a time either. It's a weird amalgamation and the machine-completed sections (and limitations) stand out the most.
Pre-generated yes, but random - must have. Otherwise Borg wouldn't be looking for artifacts of their 3rd Dynasty.
You can't be telling me that Kestrel would write something like that conciously... (I still blame Cryptic - and thus possibly her - for not thinking that this combnation might not work for all factions)
You are too generous. I blame them for even including Borg/Undine/Mirror Universe at all.
Anyway I think some kind of specific mini-civs (~5) in every cluster with their homeplanet as mini hub might work. Maybe even a small deep space exploration station. Periodically you get missions from them depending on your rank/diplomacy/skills/profession/duty officers/whatever which you can take or not. The more you help them the more they like you and the better the reward. Beside those missions there is still the "normal" improved exploration content full of minigames *cross fingers*.
Example:
You take the normal exploration mission from Grall for the Delta Volanis Cluster. While the first one was a simple "scan 5 plants" (which you assigned some duty officers to) and the second one a "check the base after an ion storm" mission, the last one is an "help distressed ship type" mission. You defend the ship from the evil Grimto and to your astonishment you learn the guys you helped are from an unknown race called the Examplers. You inform SF about them but for now there is nothing more you can do.
Sometime later you get a diplomatic first contact mission. The Examplers decided they want to know more about the helpful but mostly unknown Federation and as you had already contact Starfleet wants you for the job. You accept the mission but can't start the mission at once because you currently have some work to do in the Gamma Orionis Sector. You know you can't let them wait for too long so you send some Duty Officers to get some time and maybe to get a bit more information.
After completing the Gamma Orionis mission you travel to the Examplers and establish the "First Contact". Sadly you or your Duty Officers were not very diplomatic and you fail. Anyway let's say the mission is a success and you leave them again.
Depending on how good you were or if you left some diplomatic Duty Officers it takes some time before they contact you again. Jiro Sugihara informs you the Examplers decided to intensive their contact with Starfleet and want to invite you too celebrate. So go to them and bring some Entertainment Provisions with you. You aid them and as a sign of good will and cooperation they inform you about a nearby planet with signs of an old culture. You are not really a fan of old culture so you decide to send some Duty Officers.
After some time your XO is telling you you lost contact with the team exploring the planet. As a good captain you want to know what happened and this time you decide to go there yourself. You find the destroyed camp and an unknown ship attacks you. You are a good SF captain so you only disable their ship and they tell you you are an intruder and your Duty Officers violated some kind of sanctuary. As you didn't send a diplomat with them there was a fight and they got killed. Now you have to choose. Do you want to help the killers of your Duty Officers and send them some Medical Supplies or do you take them as prisoners? Depending on your choice you now have two mini-civs to play with in the Delta Volanis Cluster but as the post is getting too long already let's ignore them.
Some time later your Duty Officers on the homeworld of the Examplers inform you there has been a severe earthquake and they need your help. This time you can't send some Duty Officers because you have to bring Medical Supplies, Seismic Stabilizers and some other things. Depending on your profession and Duty Officers you get some optional Objectives (Teamwork anyone?). They are very grateful and decide to send some DO/BO with you.
There are may other possible missions but I want to stop now and hope I made clear what I want to have. Even if it might not happen like this anytime soon I hope we will get something like this some time in the (far) future.
I never go to the deferi sector any more. The 3 dailies there got old EXTREMELY fast. I think I could even do them blindfolded. I think there is a misinterpretation somewhere because turning the exploration zones into 6 regular sectors with 3 daily each is a complete fail.
Even the current fire and forget zones with their absurd/nonsens/cookie cutter missions are better than that.
Persistent <> Static.
The deferi sector is Static but not persistent because the deferi asks you to do the same thing the same way over and over. Like they forgot what you did 10 hour ago.
The current exploration sectors are not persistent, but at least they are Dynamic. There is an ever diminishing sense of let's see what is in there.
True exploration is Dynamic AND Persistent. My Spatial Grid framework concept is just that, Dynamic and Persistent. The findings are based on exploration minigame results. Do very good in the minigame you chart the grid in a persistent fashion. So every time you go there, you will find the same system there. It also has the foundation of territory control, galactic economy, player owned starbases and an easy way to plug exploration UGC missions. Also, the sheer number of SGs, combined with the minigames would guarantee that players won't run out of things to explore soon.
And works even after the the "walls" fall down in the future.
Why not? Once someone explores something in real life and in Star Trek it generally stays explored.
If there's a star cluster out there with a set collection of aliens, what's going to set them apart is that they're going to be aliens that the player hasn't heard of upon entering that system for the first time. Exploration isn't just about initial discovery; it's also about learning more and digging deeper about the things you know are already out there.
I personally prefer an exploration system that lets me learn more about the new aliens I encounter vs. only making superficial visits to randomly generated portraits over and over again.
Don't forget that exploration in STO's case is also making the player feel like they are truly exploring!
Here's my suggestions regarding "Known Location" Exploration:
You need to find a way to open up Deep Space for this. We should have the option of simply "roaming and discovering" these known locations on our own without the help of a contact. If a player wants to waste hours roaming deep space, hoping to find an inhabited system you should let them. A huge deep space zone, sparsely seeded with visitable systems is a way to simulate true exploration and discovery.
For those who find wandering boring, implement an "Astrometics Lab" on our ship interiors! Use Astrometics as a short cut to interesting locations in deep space. Have the player investigate long range sensors and pick systems to visit. Perhaps sensors detect a warp signature to investigate! Will you set a course to it or will you check out the anomalous readings in another area? When you arrive will you meet a hostile ship or a warp capable species to contact?
"Initial contact scenarios" should be created for us to play. Upon initial contact it should be clear that the new species has NEVER encountered Starfleet / KDF before. (The exact opposite of current star clusters where the planet/base/ship already knows our faction and needs help with something.)
Species at "known locations" should remember us after making initial contact and establishing relations. Only then should we be able to do tasks for them (dailies and foundry unlocked for that species). At this point, you should also have astrometics list their location as "discovered" or "known" with an option to warp to their system.
I have always hoped that this kind of exploration would be implemented for STO.
If Cryptic is just planning on adding mission planets to existing Star Cluster zones, letting us scan actual comets and asteroids for anomalies, and letting us flesh out the species there ourselves with Foundry Missions - it will be an improvement.
However, exploration could and should be done much better than adding new mission areas. You need a system built around these "known locations" which simulates the process of discovery. Here's hoping you find the budget to do this in a truly compelling way.
I thought Cryptic did a fantastic job with the revamp of sector space, especially with the grid off. I was hoping Exploration would look like that. Large sector maps with randomly generated stars, planets, and other phenomenon to explore.
Why not? Once someone explores something in real life and in Star Trek it generally stays explored.
If there's a star cluster out there with a set collection of aliens, what's going to set them apart is that they're going to be aliens that the player hasn't heard of upon entering that system for the first time. Exploration isn't just about initial discovery; it's also about learning more and digging deeper about the things you know are already out there.
I personally prefer an exploration system that lets me learn more about the new aliens I encounter vs. only making superficial visits to randomly generated portraits over and over again.
I'm too itching to see some really good exploration system implemented in the game.
I just wanted to drop in some of my ideas. I hope you'll like them and comment on them to keep the discussion alive.
This is the thread - it's a bit old, but since nothing has happened to the exploration system in the last year, I think this doesn't matter.
Btw this was a featured "good idea" in the last Priority One podcast (thx, Brandon & Mark!), so I hope more people will talk about this in the near future.
EDIT: forgot to tell... Read the replies as well, there are some really good ideas, like connecting the Foundry to the system (with special explo missions), and giving ships different special abilities in exploration, thus encouraging teaming, and generally making the experience more diverse.
I personally hope they leave the current clusters alone add this "New" Exploration elsewhere I actually enjoy the current exploration missions and dont want them to go away.
Really sounds to me like STO is trying to get the "cheap way" out of the exploration feature....again.
Genesis for me was THE most important feature of the game when it was first advertised and I felt utterly cheated when I played. I understand there have been difficulties to begin with, but now a year later there are no excuses for not implementing a more dynamic and well fleshed out system. Many people on the forums over the course of time have been throwing ideas to fix this right and left that put paid professionals to shame. With the introduction of the foundry and the greater experience and control over the STO engine, I expect to see a much more intuitive effort than just implementing more dialies conveniently renamed "exploration".
The things I would like to see improved are listed below:
1) Greater consistency in randomness
The biggest failing of the current engine is that it tries to mix far too much and in ridiculous combinations. How many planets have been visited when there are 100 different plant varieties that look like someone put 100 florists on the same planet? Use less and tie it to a theme that matches the monoclimatic nature of the planet exploration we saw on the shows. Example is use desert like plants only for a planet that uses the more dry looking surface textures. Then try to think what other features would be approriate for that environment. A random alien creatute, a terrain structure or perhaps even a small settlement, mining colony or research installation. Also each exploration cluster needs to have a specific (or more than one) type of generic alien that is characteristic for that region. It also needs a unique feature. An example would be the Rolor nebula missions would need a special console on your ship (thoug crafting) that adjusts your vessel for that region or that it spawns more of a certain type of mission or any other idea that gives that map a unique entity feeling.
2) Dialogue that makes sense
The problem with scripts so far in missions derives that it tries to become too specific. Limit the dialogue to essentials that make vague blanket statements that would be expected from the bridge crew. So we don't have to have a relic to land on a planet or a federation probe leaking radiation. The reason could perhaps be something like a faint energy signature that could be a probe (ours or alien) or it could be a crashed vessel or a native settlement or perhaps even a natural phenomenon in which case we could just confirm it was that and take some reading before we leave.
3) Random NPC spawns, positioning and composition
The biggest bane of genesis by far is the complete carbon copy series of events. The position of the scannables or enemies is always the same. Mix things a little. have them spawn or random numbers and in random combinations. For example an enemy confrontation could be an ambush (single fight) of lots of pirate vessels or an escalated fight of waves (randomly determined) through triggers to reach a planet and maybe beam something or someone of the surface. It could be timed or have a specific goal in mind (destroy a specific vesel or installation). Vary the postion of the spawn triggers and any things we need to scan. On the ground allow for planets to have location we have to find (less than the number we have now) by exploring the map manually (the tricorder could provide a less specific reading or none at all). For space and ground fights include random aliens (no name is always necessary) to use different types abilities and weapons.
4) Special random events
For each generic mission we do we must have a chance to see something additional. same as with a rare drop, a mission could generate a random placeable or NPC or feature that will be EXTRA to the objectives and will not be included or refered to in any way. Those could be random NPC merchants in space or ground that wish to trade limited items, or a ransom peaceful alien that could sway through diplomacy to join our crew (or maybe save him through class specific action ie engineer fix his ship), or a cashe (or salvaged) piece of equipment. Adittionally you could have a native creature that could roam the area or even trigger a first contact scenario (instead of specifically being assigned to do it). Finally adding to the mini game ideas (like the puzzles on the featured series) people have posted, you could use them to take reading from a point of interest on ground or in space.
5) Foundry mission type: exploration
This is just a repeat of an idea not mine but to which I am attached to fondly. Have people design missions that may appear on the exploration maps (only those you see fit) but strike them off our list once we do them once unless we specifically choose to replay them. I for one would love to add a few missions to that effect.
What I think would be ideal would be a mix of something like we have in Deferi Space (or actually in every regular Sector Block), and the Exploration Clusters.
Basically, there is a large map with "known" locations. There are known NPCs, and they have known borders (or possibly visible and changeable), they have relations with each other and interests. There is a series of missions that introduce these NPC races and their relations.
And then, there are small anomalies. There are nebulas and star clusters that you can enter and find a random anomaly and a mission - some of them might be the "old" Gensis mission, using the new NPC races for that sector, as well as truely randomly new ones. Some of them are new missions, deeper in comlexity and story - some with content specifically relating to the local NPCs, some to others. There might even be occassional connections to other Exploration Clusters. Imagine finding a "lost colony" of the Crimto or whoever - possibly as a Lt.Cmdr that has yet to meet the Crimto, and later sees the connection. And, who knows, maybe this even gives a unique "exploration" accolade - "Reunite the Crimto colonies".
Other missions are just random "anomaly of the week" stuff. Other missions are Foundry missions.
I would very much like to see a sense of exploration happening in that knowledge about a Sector Block and its inhabitants advances your options.
If you learned that the Widrab homeworld is suffering from terrible earthquakes and needs seismic stabilizers and terraforming equipment to deal with the problems, in a diplomatic conference with them you might offer them deliveries of such devices, in exchange for another favor (like stopping the raids on Exemplar freighters). ANd if you do so, you might even get less Exemplar-under-Widrab-attack missions, or if you do, at least the story text would indicate that these are pirates and are not supported by their government (since they really aren't now.)
I personally prefer an exploration system that lets me learn more about the new aliens I encounter vs. only making superficial visits to randomly generated portraits over and over again.
Well put, Thomas. And this is precisely why I'm not concerned.
i have to agree, what the Grand Nagus says does not sound very much like exploration to me.
For me a big part of why i initially bought this game (besides wanting to fight a Wolf 359 type Borg Cube with 40 ships... never happened -.- ) was that promiss of unlimited exploration content created by a mysterious technology called "Genesis".
Now i've seen, now i know, yet i still want to see the original promiss fullfilled.
The idea was good, the execution was bad.
there are a few things that need to be done.
STEP ONE: CLEAN UP the existing content.
either use those one million bug reports and Nuke all the bugged planets, or use the tech introduced by thr foundry so we the users can VOTE if that mission should stay or be nuked.
I imagine a window popping up after every Genesis mission like
"Please tell us if you encountered any bugs or Errors"
[Yes] [No]
and then by the results nuke everything that has a certain amount of people reporting problems.
that would make things easier for everyone,
the Dev's could sort all the missions by the number of problems and press the nuke button,
we, the players would not have to go through the horrible procedure of submitting a bug ticket for every mission only to see that nothing will happen after all.
let it run like this for 2 or 3 months and clean out the garbage, but keep the good stuff.
STEP TWO expand and improve the existing Genesis System... instead of just abondoning it.
I think we all agree that what we've got as exploration is very limited, but that is not the fault of the Genesis System, it is the fault of Dev's that had not enough time to make more varied missions.
Why are there only, at best, 15 diffrent types of missions? Why not 150? The Dev's could have added 5 new Mission Types every month or so and the System would have grown constantly, get more intresting for new Players and less repetetive for veterans.
The only reason it is so boring is because it is allways the same old stuff, we need NEW stuff.
That said, Exploration missions should concentrate more on actual Exploration.
STEP THREE: improved Missions
We have so much new tech in the game, (for example: good / bad choices, possibilty to loose missions) yet everything from Genesis is one year old "Press F" Tech, the game has evolved, Exploration has not.
We not only need new Genesis Missions for more and better variety, we need new missions with more intresting CONTENT.
STEP FOUR: put the Exploration back into Exploration
i don't think it needs any explenation but scanning 5 anomalies or flowers is the most "Exploration" i've ever done in those Missions.
I want to approach a planet, scan for lifeforms, make contact or not, scan for resources, claim the planet, make first contact, stuff like that.
Exploration as it is now is mostly Search and Destroy, Defend, Rescue... those are "Patrol" Missions... not exploration.
STEP FIVE: add Foundry Content
We have the Foundry, let's use it.
Give Foundry Authors a tag option for their missions to define if they would like to add them to the exploration pool or to the default Foundry Missions.
Let the user choose if they want to play Foundry Missions, Genesis Missions or a random mix of both.
Or better yet, let the Foundry Authors use a default Genesis mission skript and then ADD objectives and Story to it by hand so it will become one of Captain Kirk's exploration missions where suddenly a strange Alien appears and kills a Redshirt. You know you want it!
******************************************
that is what i expect from exploration.
if you want to add certain story arcs and races feel free to do so, sounds like a nice plan but use that to IMPROVE what you got and not REPLACE.
I expect you to take what you got and improve upon it to a point where it is fun again, not REPLACE it with something entirely else that comes with it's very own set of Problems.
According to the most recent comments I've heard, star clusters are going to become like the Defari system with "known locations, known people that you can go help, daily missions". I have 2 concerns with this: first of all, thats not really exploration. Second, what happens when you play through those missions? Do you have nothing new to explore until new ones are added?
So you're saying that the "new revamped" exploration content is going to be another half-baked idea, just like the Romulans: part Federation, part Empire, and the Department Head/I mean Duty Officer/I mean it has nothing to do with BO's whatsoever, ideas?
Cause that's exactly what this game needs. Another lame, poorly thought out, buggy, half-hearted addition that isn't what we asked for.
So you're saying that the "new revamped" exploration content is going to be another half-baked idea, just like the Romulans: part Federation, part Empire, and the Department Head/I mean Duty Officer/I mean it has nothing to do with BO's whatsoever, ideas?
Cause that's exactly what this game needs. Another lame, poorly thought out, buggy, half-hearted addition that isn't what we asked for.
*sigh*
Considering that it's all pre-design table stuff,
Considering the state of exploration clusters,
Considering it's talking about integrating more components than just dev-made persitent areas and dailies,
you can only go upwards based the ideas in the interview.
Granted, the best laid plans during early development tend to morph into something strange by the time they reach the playerbase.
Considering that it's all pre-design table stuff,
Considering the state of exploration clusters,
Considering it's talking about integrating more components than just dev-made persitent areas and dailies,
you can only go upwards based the ideas in the interview.
Granted, the best laid plans during early development tend to morph into something strange by the time they reach the playerbase.
The interview in the OP states the current discussions for exploration revamp include more than just dailies and some PvE story by the devs (Foundry and more was mentioned).
As for not being in design-table discussions, exploration isn't being touched in Season 4. It's never been announced as part of Season 4 (I have no idea where Grand Nagus got this, despite dstahl mentioning it in an interview that also talked about Season 4 - and also talked about things beyond it too).
As for the state of current cluster they speak for themselves: i.e. blargh!
The interview in the OP states the current discussions for exploration revamp include more than just dailies and some PvE story by the devs (Foundry and more was mentioned).
As for not being in design-table discussions, exploration isn't being touched in Season 4. It's never been announced as part of Season 4 (I have no idea where Grand Nagus got this, despite dstahl mentioning it in an interview that also talked about Season 4 - and also talked about things beyond it too).
As for the state of current cluster they speak for themselves: i.e. blargh!
Thought as much. The ground revamp was the major point for season 4 along with some other changes like the DSE if I remember correctly. Still we need the exploration to improve because like you say its absolutely horrid right now. Like I posted earlier can they not just enable a specific mission type in the foundry which can be added to the clusters regularly to increase their variety until they get to do something about it themselves?
I hope we dont get more of what the OP refers to though. It just doesn't sound terribly imaginative.
Thought as much. The ground revamp was the major point for season 4 along with some other changes like the DSE if I remember correctly. Still we need the exploration to improve because like you say its absolutely horrid right now. Like I posted earlier can they not just enable a specific mission type in the foundry which can be added to the clusters regularly to increase their variety until they get to do something about it themselves?
I hope we dont get more of what the OP refers to though. It just doesn't sound terribly imaginative.
I'd love to see missions in the Foundry and tying them to particular exploration clusters as a randomized mission, perhaps even chaining them together if they use the same species.
However, Cryptic has a habit of biting off more than it can chew in the Season 1 & 2 Updates (resulting in many different checkboxes filled but filled fairly underwhelming apiece).
Season 3 was nice: it was focused and what it did, it did well (450+ crafting recipes & crafting streamlining, Sector Space reroll)
With Ground Combat, Duty Officers, and then Bridge Officers (following shortly thereafter, according to Heretic), I hope Cryptic focuses on the plate it has. June/July is a long ways off but I hope that what they're focusing on they do well, unlike Ship Interiors.
So you're saying that the "new revamped" exploration content is going to be another half-baked idea, just like the Romulans: part Federation, part Empire, and the Department Head/I mean Duty Officer/I mean it has nothing to do with BO's whatsoever, ideas?
Cause that's exactly what this game needs. Another lame, poorly thought out, buggy, half-hearted addition that isn't what we asked for.
*sigh*
Really? I mean really? You see one side of the coin and you forget to check the other to see if its real. All of the things you just mentioned are only being discussed and designed, and others are not even being done for another year basically. Until we hear more concrete, real details, and the systems are actually in testing, you cant give judgment. The fact of the matter is that they are still designing these things and as such a lot can change; hopefully for the better.
Why not? Once someone explores something in real life and in Star Trek it generally stays explored.
If there's a star cluster out there with a set collection of aliens, what's going to set them apart is that they're going to be aliens that the player hasn't heard of upon entering that system for the first time. Exploration isn't just about initial discovery; it's also about learning more and digging deeper about the things you know are already out there.
I personally prefer an exploration system that lets me learn more about the new aliens I encounter vs. only making superficial visits to randomly generated portraits over and over again.
If they treat us as a truly unknown upon our first encounter, then sure, that sounds great. However, if they already know who we are(like the Defari), then that isnt exploration its diplomacy.
Exploration was intitially marked as a repeatable type mission with unspecified parameters. Turning into something set and known beforehand already contradicts its very purpose. I understand that dailies may cover the repeatable part of that initiative, but we are yet to have something not predefined and trully dynamic in our gameplay.
This is why I like featured episodes so much. Its new and exciting without being entirely novel (although some individual elements are).
If they treat us as a truly unknown upon our first encounter, then sure, that sounds great. However, if they already know who we are(like the Defari), then that isnt exploration its diplomacy.
We met the Ferengi in TNG but it wasn't until DS9 that we explored them.
Exploration isn't a boolean switch that's either on or off: it's a snowflake with many nooks and crannies.
Just meeting something for the first time isn't exploring any more than shaking someone's hand on a first date is foreplay. Setting foot on the moon isn't fully exploring it either - we haven't even explored the barren moon above our heads fully.
Both finding a new culture and learning about it is exploration.
The interview in the OP states the current discussions for exploration revamp include more than just dailies and some PvE story by the devs (Foundry and more was mentioned).
As for not being in design-table discussions, exploration isn't being touched in Season 4. It's never been announced as part of Season 4 (I have no idea where Grand Nagus got this, despite dstahl mentioning it in an interview that also talked about Season 4 - and also talked about things beyond it too).
As for the state of current cluster they speak for themselves: i.e. blargh!
I was also confused about the season 4 part. Glad that's been cleared up.
That said. I don't See how it'd even be possible to revamp exploration in a single season. I've mentioned this before, exploration space is just about half the map at 13 sectors worth. That's a ton of space to revamp. I cant see them spending any less than one year to achieve this if they really want it to be awesome. If they could try to revamp one exploration sector a month I'd be happy with that. Kind of like a "monthly featured exploration sector"
I don't mind them adding a solid race to help define an exploration sector as long as they are unknown upon entering that sector, and part of the discovery is finding them and learning about who they are. Kinda like a much more in depth version of a first contact mission. However there also needs to be exploration quests there that have nothing to do with that sector's residents.
Also add a solid discovery accolade system. There are enough things in the universe to discover such as all the planet classes, comets, nebulas, star classes, solar events, space fairing creatures, worm holes and the list goes on. There is enough stuff that could be stuffed into the exploration accolade section to last a heck of a long time trying to discover everything. If anything I really hope cryptic pays attention to that. An accolade system is not the end all solution but could really add a nice flavor of exploration to these areas. A good accolade system can be played almost as a seperate game in itself. Include a few rare disscoveries in each sector to make it challenging.
Do whatever you need to do Cryptic, but please for the love of V'ger, remove one map:
It's foggy.
It's raining.
The terrain is extremely hilly grassland.
I have to find 4x Medical supplies.
One is always buried so far into the ground i can't reach it.
When i reach combat, i find most of my crew are for some reason, 100 meters BELOW me.
Comments
It's exactly why there are missions to hunt down indigenous plants and those plants appear to be Greek columns.
On a further note: Left 4 Dead uses a machine generation for many of its encounters, under the AI director. It's yet another different method of handing control over to machines and one that actually works well for that game.
I know, decided to be snarky.
well, truthfully your thoughts sorta ring far more true than mine. But then again, it's nice to see ideas being placed on the table and further extrapolated upon, instead of "[developer] Fix this! Make it better! Nerf this! Buff that!" that one often sees across a myriad of games.
i think yours is a good start, in all honesty at the end of the day i'd like to be able to, even at vice admiral level, go for a sojourn around the galaxy and just go "oooooh, adventure!". and while the episodic content is the main course, i think we'd like a little entree` and dessert to round out our meal o' trek, no?
edit: also what i'd actually like to see is a mission in an actual nebula, and while i dunno about the engine's performance characteristics with such things, but i'm talking nigh "pea soup" nebulae fog here. "monsters in the mist" kinda stuff.
something akin to that was done for freespace 2, severely limited visual range, sensor ghosts popping up all over the place, that kinda thing.
Yes they do need an overhaul. Perhaps one featured race and if the Star Cluster is near Klingon space you have more chance of Klingon missions than you do of Borg. Perhaps missions like the Defari ore, in which you have to cross the sector to deliver, resuce or find out what happen to.
We will still need anomalies that give data sample, as collecting data sample for crafting would be almost impossible or at least very time consuming any other way.
It requires some but, as a fellow player, you've probably seen some of the machine-generated parts around the seams (borg dynasties, kitbash corridor generation, etc.).
It's not generated all at once (like most 4x strategy games) nor is it creating one map at a time either. It's a weird amalgamation and the machine-completed sections (and limitations) stand out the most.
You are too generous. I blame them for even including Borg/Undine/Mirror Universe at all.
Anyway I think some kind of specific mini-civs (~5) in every cluster with their homeplanet as mini hub might work. Maybe even a small deep space exploration station. Periodically you get missions from them depending on your rank/diplomacy/skills/profession/duty officers/whatever which you can take or not. The more you help them the more they like you and the better the reward. Beside those missions there is still the "normal" improved exploration content full of minigames *cross fingers*.
Example:
You take the normal exploration mission from Grall for the Delta Volanis Cluster. While the first one was a simple "scan 5 plants" (which you assigned some duty officers to) and the second one a "check the base after an ion storm" mission, the last one is an "help distressed ship type" mission. You defend the ship from the evil Grimto and to your astonishment you learn the guys you helped are from an unknown race called the Examplers. You inform SF about them but for now there is nothing more you can do.
Sometime later you get a diplomatic first contact mission. The Examplers decided they want to know more about the helpful but mostly unknown Federation and as you had already contact Starfleet wants you for the job. You accept the mission but can't start the mission at once because you currently have some work to do in the Gamma Orionis Sector. You know you can't let them wait for too long so you send some Duty Officers to get some time and maybe to get a bit more information.
After completing the Gamma Orionis mission you travel to the Examplers and establish the "First Contact". Sadly you or your Duty Officers were not very diplomatic and you fail.
Depending on how good you were or if you left some diplomatic Duty Officers it takes some time before they contact you again. Jiro Sugihara informs you the Examplers decided to intensive their contact with Starfleet and want to invite you too celebrate. So go to them and bring some Entertainment Provisions with you. You aid them and as a sign of good will and cooperation they inform you about a nearby planet with signs of an old culture. You are not really a fan of old culture so you decide to send some Duty Officers.
After some time your XO is telling you you lost contact with the team exploring the planet. As a good captain you want to know what happened and this time you decide to go there yourself. You find the destroyed camp and an unknown ship attacks you. You are a good SF captain so you only disable their ship and they tell you you are an intruder and your Duty Officers violated some kind of sanctuary. As you didn't send a diplomat with them there was a fight and they got killed. Now you have to choose. Do you want to help the killers of your Duty Officers and send them some Medical Supplies or do you take them as prisoners? Depending on your choice you now have two mini-civs to play with in the Delta Volanis Cluster but as the post is getting too long already let's ignore them.
Some time later your Duty Officers on the homeworld of the Examplers inform you there has been a severe earthquake and they need your help. This time you can't send some Duty Officers because you have to bring Medical Supplies, Seismic Stabilizers and some other things. Depending on your profession and Duty Officers you get some optional Objectives (Teamwork anyone?). They are very grateful and decide to send some DO/BO with you.
There are may other possible missions but I want to stop now and hope I made clear what I want to have. Even if it might not happen like this anytime soon I hope we will get something like this some time in the (far) future.
Even the current fire and forget zones with their absurd/nonsens/cookie cutter missions are better than that.
Persistent <> Static.
The deferi sector is Static but not persistent because the deferi asks you to do the same thing the same way over and over. Like they forgot what you did 10 hour ago.
The current exploration sectors are not persistent, but at least they are Dynamic. There is an ever diminishing sense of let's see what is in there.
True exploration is Dynamic AND Persistent. My Spatial Grid framework concept is just that, Dynamic and Persistent. The findings are based on exploration minigame results. Do very good in the minigame you chart the grid in a persistent fashion. So every time you go there, you will find the same system there. It also has the foundation of territory control, galactic economy, player owned starbases and an easy way to plug exploration UGC missions. Also, the sheer number of SGs, combined with the minigames would guarantee that players won't run out of things to explore soon.
And works even after the the "walls" fall down in the future.
Don't forget that exploration in STO's case is also making the player feel like they are truly exploring!
Here's my suggestions regarding "Known Location" Exploration:
I have always hoped that this kind of exploration would be implemented for STO.
If Cryptic is just planning on adding mission planets to existing Star Cluster zones, letting us scan actual comets and asteroids for anomalies, and letting us flesh out the species there ourselves with Foundry Missions - it will be an improvement.
However, exploration could and should be done much better than adding new mission areas. You need a system built around these "known locations" which simulates the process of discovery. Here's hoping you find the budget to do this in a truly compelling way.
CAT, I'm with you 100%. Make it so!
However, single level Madlibs aren't really the way of going about it.
The exploration system needs to be more complicated, with lots of random surprises. Making every mission unique and unexpected.
Ripping it out altogether to replace with more static content will do the original concept a great disservice.
I'm too itching to see some really good exploration system implemented in the game.
I just wanted to drop in some of my ideas. I hope you'll like them and comment on them to keep the discussion alive.
This is the thread - it's a bit old, but since nothing has happened to the exploration system in the last year, I think this doesn't matter.
Btw this was a featured "good idea" in the last Priority One podcast (thx, Brandon & Mark!), so I hope more people will talk about this in the near future.
EDIT: forgot to tell... Read the replies as well, there are some really good ideas, like connecting the Foundry to the system (with special explo missions), and giving ships different special abilities in exploration, thus encouraging teaming, and generally making the experience more diverse.
Genesis for me was THE most important feature of the game when it was first advertised and I felt utterly cheated when I played. I understand there have been difficulties to begin with, but now a year later there are no excuses for not implementing a more dynamic and well fleshed out system. Many people on the forums over the course of time have been throwing ideas to fix this right and left that put paid professionals to shame. With the introduction of the foundry and the greater experience and control over the STO engine, I expect to see a much more intuitive effort than just implementing more dialies conveniently renamed "exploration".
The things I would like to see improved are listed below:
1) Greater consistency in randomness
The biggest failing of the current engine is that it tries to mix far too much and in ridiculous combinations. How many planets have been visited when there are 100 different plant varieties that look like someone put 100 florists on the same planet? Use less and tie it to a theme that matches the monoclimatic nature of the planet exploration we saw on the shows. Example is use desert like plants only for a planet that uses the more dry looking surface textures. Then try to think what other features would be approriate for that environment. A random alien creatute, a terrain structure or perhaps even a small settlement, mining colony or research installation. Also each exploration cluster needs to have a specific (or more than one) type of generic alien that is characteristic for that region. It also needs a unique feature. An example would be the Rolor nebula missions would need a special console on your ship (thoug crafting) that adjusts your vessel for that region or that it spawns more of a certain type of mission or any other idea that gives that map a unique entity feeling.
2) Dialogue that makes sense
The problem with scripts so far in missions derives that it tries to become too specific. Limit the dialogue to essentials that make vague blanket statements that would be expected from the bridge crew. So we don't have to have a relic to land on a planet or a federation probe leaking radiation. The reason could perhaps be something like a faint energy signature that could be a probe (ours or alien) or it could be a crashed vessel or a native settlement or perhaps even a natural phenomenon in which case we could just confirm it was that and take some reading before we leave.
3) Random NPC spawns, positioning and composition
The biggest bane of genesis by far is the complete carbon copy series of events. The position of the scannables or enemies is always the same. Mix things a little. have them spawn or random numbers and in random combinations. For example an enemy confrontation could be an ambush (single fight) of lots of pirate vessels or an escalated fight of waves (randomly determined) through triggers to reach a planet and maybe beam something or someone of the surface. It could be timed or have a specific goal in mind (destroy a specific vesel or installation). Vary the postion of the spawn triggers and any things we need to scan. On the ground allow for planets to have location we have to find (less than the number we have now) by exploring the map manually (the tricorder could provide a less specific reading or none at all). For space and ground fights include random aliens (no name is always necessary) to use different types abilities and weapons.
4) Special random events
For each generic mission we do we must have a chance to see something additional. same as with a rare drop, a mission could generate a random placeable or NPC or feature that will be EXTRA to the objectives and will not be included or refered to in any way. Those could be random NPC merchants in space or ground that wish to trade limited items, or a ransom peaceful alien that could sway through diplomacy to join our crew (or maybe save him through class specific action ie engineer fix his ship), or a cashe (or salvaged) piece of equipment. Adittionally you could have a native creature that could roam the area or even trigger a first contact scenario (instead of specifically being assigned to do it). Finally adding to the mini game ideas (like the puzzles on the featured series) people have posted, you could use them to take reading from a point of interest on ground or in space.
5) Foundry mission type: exploration
This is just a repeat of an idea not mine but to which I am attached to fondly. Have people design missions that may appear on the exploration maps (only those you see fit) but strike them off our list once we do them once unless we specifically choose to replay them. I for one would love to add a few missions to that effect.
Apologies for the long post.
Basically, there is a large map with "known" locations. There are known NPCs, and they have known borders (or possibly visible and changeable), they have relations with each other and interests. There is a series of missions that introduce these NPC races and their relations.
And then, there are small anomalies. There are nebulas and star clusters that you can enter and find a random anomaly and a mission - some of them might be the "old" Gensis mission, using the new NPC races for that sector, as well as truely randomly new ones. Some of them are new missions, deeper in comlexity and story - some with content specifically relating to the local NPCs, some to others. There might even be occassional connections to other Exploration Clusters. Imagine finding a "lost colony" of the Crimto or whoever - possibly as a Lt.Cmdr that has yet to meet the Crimto, and later sees the connection. And, who knows, maybe this even gives a unique "exploration" accolade - "Reunite the Crimto colonies".
Other missions are just random "anomaly of the week" stuff. Other missions are Foundry missions.
I would very much like to see a sense of exploration happening in that knowledge about a Sector Block and its inhabitants advances your options.
If you learned that the Widrab homeworld is suffering from terrible earthquakes and needs seismic stabilizers and terraforming equipment to deal with the problems, in a diplomatic conference with them you might offer them deliveries of such devices, in exchange for another favor (like stopping the raids on Exemplar freighters). ANd if you do so, you might even get less Exemplar-under-Widrab-attack missions, or if you do, at least the story text would indicate that these are pirates and are not supported by their government (since they really aren't now.)
Well put, Thomas. And this is precisely why I'm not concerned.
For me a big part of why i initially bought this game (besides wanting to fight a Wolf 359 type Borg Cube with 40 ships... never happened -.- ) was that promiss of unlimited exploration content created by a mysterious technology called "Genesis".
Now i've seen, now i know, yet i still want to see the original promiss fullfilled.
The idea was good, the execution was bad.
there are a few things that need to be done.
STEP ONE: CLEAN UP the existing content.
either use those one million bug reports and Nuke all the bugged planets, or use the tech introduced by thr foundry so we the users can VOTE if that mission should stay or be nuked.
I imagine a window popping up after every Genesis mission like
"Please tell us if you encountered any bugs or Errors"
[Yes] [No]
and then by the results nuke everything that has a certain amount of people reporting problems.
that would make things easier for everyone,
the Dev's could sort all the missions by the number of problems and press the nuke button,
we, the players would not have to go through the horrible procedure of submitting a bug ticket for every mission only to see that nothing will happen after all.
let it run like this for 2 or 3 months and clean out the garbage, but keep the good stuff.
STEP TWO expand and improve the existing Genesis System... instead of just abondoning it.
I think we all agree that what we've got as exploration is very limited, but that is not the fault of the Genesis System, it is the fault of Dev's that had not enough time to make more varied missions.
Why are there only, at best, 15 diffrent types of missions? Why not 150? The Dev's could have added 5 new Mission Types every month or so and the System would have grown constantly, get more intresting for new Players and less repetetive for veterans.
The only reason it is so boring is because it is allways the same old stuff, we need NEW stuff.
That said, Exploration missions should concentrate more on actual Exploration.
STEP THREE: improved Missions
We have so much new tech in the game, (for example: good / bad choices, possibilty to loose missions) yet everything from Genesis is one year old "Press F" Tech, the game has evolved, Exploration has not.
We not only need new Genesis Missions for more and better variety, we need new missions with more intresting CONTENT.
STEP FOUR: put the Exploration back into Exploration
i don't think it needs any explenation but scanning 5 anomalies or flowers is the most "Exploration" i've ever done in those Missions.
I want to approach a planet, scan for lifeforms, make contact or not, scan for resources, claim the planet, make first contact, stuff like that.
Exploration as it is now is mostly Search and Destroy, Defend, Rescue... those are "Patrol" Missions... not exploration.
STEP FIVE: add Foundry Content
We have the Foundry, let's use it.
Give Foundry Authors a tag option for their missions to define if they would like to add them to the exploration pool or to the default Foundry Missions.
Let the user choose if they want to play Foundry Missions, Genesis Missions or a random mix of both.
Or better yet, let the Foundry Authors use a default Genesis mission skript and then ADD objectives and Story to it by hand so it will become one of Captain Kirk's exploration missions where suddenly a strange Alien appears and kills a Redshirt. You know you want it!
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that is what i expect from exploration.
if you want to add certain story arcs and races feel free to do so, sounds like a nice plan but use that to IMPROVE what you got and not REPLACE.
I expect you to take what you got and improve upon it to a point where it is fun again, not REPLACE it with something entirely else that comes with it's very own set of Problems.
more then 'nuf said ;P
Cause that's exactly what this game needs. Another lame, poorly thought out, buggy, half-hearted addition that isn't what we asked for.
*sigh*
Considering the state of exploration clusters,
Considering it's talking about integrating more components than just dev-made persitent areas and dailies,
you can only go upwards based the ideas in the interview.
Granted, the best laid plans during early development tend to morph into something strange by the time they reach the playerbase.
Which interview are you quoting? Genuine question
The interview in the OP states the current discussions for exploration revamp include more than just dailies and some PvE story by the devs (Foundry and more was mentioned).
As for not being in design-table discussions, exploration isn't being touched in Season 4. It's never been announced as part of Season 4 (I have no idea where Grand Nagus got this, despite dstahl mentioning it in an interview that also talked about Season 4 - and also talked about things beyond it too).
As for the state of current cluster they speak for themselves: i.e. blargh!
Thought as much. The ground revamp was the major point for season 4 along with some other changes like the DSE if I remember correctly. Still we need the exploration to improve because like you say its absolutely horrid right now. Like I posted earlier can they not just enable a specific mission type in the foundry which can be added to the clusters regularly to increase their variety until they get to do something about it themselves?
I hope we dont get more of what the OP refers to though. It just doesn't sound terribly imaginative.
I'd love to see missions in the Foundry and tying them to particular exploration clusters as a randomized mission, perhaps even chaining them together if they use the same species.
However, Cryptic has a habit of biting off more than it can chew in the Season 1 & 2 Updates (resulting in many different checkboxes filled but filled fairly underwhelming apiece).
Season 3 was nice: it was focused and what it did, it did well (450+ crafting recipes & crafting streamlining, Sector Space reroll)
With Ground Combat, Duty Officers, and then Bridge Officers (following shortly thereafter, according to Heretic), I hope Cryptic focuses on the plate it has. June/July is a long ways off but I hope that what they're focusing on they do well, unlike Ship Interiors.
Really? I mean really? You see one side of the coin and you forget to check the other to see if its real. All of the things you just mentioned are only being discussed and designed, and others are not even being done for another year basically. Until we hear more concrete, real details, and the systems are actually in testing, you cant give judgment. The fact of the matter is that they are still designing these things and as such a lot can change; hopefully for the better.
If they treat us as a truly unknown upon our first encounter, then sure, that sounds great. However, if they already know who we are(like the Defari), then that isnt exploration its diplomacy.
This is why I like featured episodes so much. Its new and exciting without being entirely novel (although some individual elements are).
Exploration isn't a boolean switch that's either on or off: it's a snowflake with many nooks and crannies.
Just meeting something for the first time isn't exploring any more than shaking someone's hand on a first date is foreplay. Setting foot on the moon isn't fully exploring it either - we haven't even explored the barren moon above our heads fully.
Both finding a new culture and learning about it is exploration.
I was also confused about the season 4 part. Glad that's been cleared up.
That said. I don't See how it'd even be possible to revamp exploration in a single season. I've mentioned this before, exploration space is just about half the map at 13 sectors worth. That's a ton of space to revamp. I cant see them spending any less than one year to achieve this if they really want it to be awesome. If they could try to revamp one exploration sector a month I'd be happy with that. Kind of like a "monthly featured exploration sector"
I don't mind them adding a solid race to help define an exploration sector as long as they are unknown upon entering that sector, and part of the discovery is finding them and learning about who they are. Kinda like a much more in depth version of a first contact mission. However there also needs to be exploration quests there that have nothing to do with that sector's residents.
Also add a solid discovery accolade system. There are enough things in the universe to discover such as all the planet classes, comets, nebulas, star classes, solar events, space fairing creatures, worm holes and the list goes on. There is enough stuff that could be stuffed into the exploration accolade section to last a heck of a long time trying to discover everything. If anything I really hope cryptic pays attention to that. An accolade system is not the end all solution but could really add a nice flavor of exploration to these areas. A good accolade system can be played almost as a seperate game in itself. Include a few rare disscoveries in each sector to make it challenging.
It's foggy.
It's raining.
The terrain is extremely hilly grassland.
I have to find 4x Medical supplies.
One is always buried so far into the ground i can't reach it.
When i reach combat, i find most of my crew are for some reason, 100 meters BELOW me.
You know the map i mean. Murder it with a spoon.