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TOS lounge pic

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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    TOS Lounge from dstahl's twitter today:

    http://yfrog.com/h0q4cpaj

    I must object to the windows in that lounge. TOS didn't have the budget for windows like that, so neither should Cryptic.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Found another screencap from TrekCore (it's so darn good for this kind of thing! ;) ) - this time from Season 3's 'Let That Be Your Last Battlefield'.

    Seems pretty conclusive that there aren't windows - they're grilled plates (vents?), with lights behind.

    I guess then, by implication, that the mess hall/recreation room/lounge as we know it from TOS wasn't located near the rim of the saucer, hence the lack of windows. In fact, I think it's part of the general TOS design sensibility - there's something 'submarine-like' about it, with no windows on the bridge, or in any of the other major rooms or any hallways.


    As to sticking them in by way of artistic license, I'd say fidelity to source is the way to go - simply because people will be buying this pack for authenticity's sake. Once you start going down the route of 'what can we put a new spin on?', it's not long before the point of doing such a specific replica is lost - better to just add another 'inspired-by-canon' interior like the current ones and save time/money! ;)


    (Oh, and as for 'budget restraints', that's a common myth. TOS was state-of-the-art back in the day, and the sets/costumes reflected that. Even something that's aged as badly as the rubber suit for the Gorn? That was practically cutting edge for TV at the time - compared to even 70s/80s 'Doctor Who', for example. Finally, Matt Jeffries wasn't a slouch when it came to design - I'm pretty sure that if he'd intended the set designs to include windows, they'd have found a way to add them.)



    Ok - gonna get off my nerd-soapbox now. :p But you see my point, I hope!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Seems pretty conclusive that there aren't windows - they're grilled plates (vents?), with lights behind.

    The grill is still there, but instead of a light, we get a window. I perfer the window to the light, but the light's not bad, at least it still adds ambience. It could be that this is a officers mess or captain's dining room, as opposed to a general crew mess like the one seen in the show. We do know that the Connie refit had an officers mess, so it's not too much of a stretch.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    (Oh, and as for 'budget restraints', that's a common myth. TOS was state-of-the-art back in the day, and the sets/costumes reflected that. Even something that's aged as badly as the rubber suit for the Gorn? That was practically cutting edge for TV at the time

    Exactly! Watch the shuttle scene Journey to Babel. It's awesome even by todays standards.
    Finally, Matt Jeffries wasn't a slouch when it came to design - I'm pretty sure that if he'd intended the set designs to include windows, they'd have found a way to add them.)

    Again, they obviously had space backdrops. A window couldn't have been that much. If they were supposed to be there, they would have been.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Oh, and as for 'budget restraints', that's a common myth. TOS was state-of-the-art back in the day, and the sets/costumes reflected that. Even something that's aged as badly as the rubber suit for the Gorn? That was practically cutting edge for TV at the time - compared to even 70s/80s 'Doctor Who', for example. Finally, Matt Jeffries wasn't a slouch when it came to design - I'm pretty sure that if he'd intended the set designs to include windows, they'd have found a way to add them.)!

    Gene Roddenberry intended for Klingons to havy bumpy foreheads even in TOS, however he stated due to budgetary reasons, it couldn't be done.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    dstahl wrote: »
    the nx had windows btw... i think this might be a case where you only saw half the room and we have extrapolated that every other mess hall that had a budget had windows - but who knows maybe we have more reference out there to analyze to death.

    I don't mind that this lounge has windows as much as I mind that the angles of those windows are completely wrong. Like the other windows in our normal interiors (albeit much more pronounced), those windows correlate to nothing ever seen on any ship. In no scene in a starfleet ship have we ever seen the windows at such an angle that you could stand beneath them and look "up" into the sky. None of our ships have windows that are this large and curve from a vertical wall into the overhead (again this is much worse on the regular interior windows, but still).

    The closest thing I could get to any sort of correlation is the (regular) mess hall windows to the front window area of Voyager, but even that doesn't correlate well b/c those windows are just rectangles that look straight out, not curved to look up. EDIT: from this picture, in order to match the curvature of the walls/windows it appears that this room would either be on the upper quarter of the engineering hull next to the neck or on the bridge "cake" just below the bridge. Neither areas have windows on the upper/top surfaces. /EDIT

    Set designers on Trek have always done an outstanding job to give us visual cues that correlate interior space to exterior features, whether that was the circular bridge walls to cue us in that the bridge is somewhere near that dome on top of the saucer, curved walkways that told us we were looking at the inside of the saucer, or in TNG when they actually started showing windows, the windows had the same shape when viewed on the inside as the lights you see on the outside.

    We do have interior window pieces that correlate to window styles 2-4, but those aren't used nearly enough. Even though those windows are 20 feet tall, at least they're the right shape. The Klingon ship where Miral Paris is being held prisoner in the mission involving the Guardian of Forever actually has a believable window, a small horizontal rectangle at character eye height. a TOS-era federation ship using window style 1 might have similarly styled windows. My suggestion for the TOS lounge would be to make the curved area above those vents wall textures, and make those vents the actual window area.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    But it's 2409. and after 200 some years in service, Starfleet decided that for morale reasons it was important for the crew to occasionally see the majesty of deep space.

    I mean really, we can't have young Lieutenants going crazy, locking themselves in main engineering and singing "I'll take you home again, Kathleen" anymore.

    Nothing good can come from a five-year mission in a tincan without windows.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    PodSix wrote:
    But it's 2409. and after 200 some years in service, Starfleet decided that for morale reasons it was important for the crew to occasionally see the majesty of deep space.

    I mean really, we can't have young Lieutenants going crazy, locking themselves in main engineering and singing "I'll take you home again, Kathleen" anymore.

    Nothing good can come from a five-year mission in a tincan without windows.

    So very true. Even naval personnel in real life get some sunlight every once in a while.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    PodSix wrote:
    But it's 2409. and after 200 some years in service, Starfleet decided that for morale reasons it was important for the crew to occasionally see the majesty of deep space.

    When was this? Source please.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Dstahl, would it be possible to have a variant on the sets, with the controls slightly updated to Lcars (reasoning being that if you're an Admiral, you can have your ship built with whatever kind of interior you want, but you don't want to have old controls for the most part) where applicable? Not major, but work it in and make it fit with the rest of the interior, as an alternate scheme similar to a bridge pack? That way, you make more people happy, and give them more reasons to get it (I'd get it either way, just for that awesome lounge, but I'd be extra happy for awesome slightly updated connie interiors)

    Oh, and if you ever do Movie era interiors, see if you can dig up Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise. The original blueprints, and it has all sorts of odd ideas to fill out a TMP era interior and add some extra flavor to current interiors as well. At least, if you promise to use the ST VI engine room instead of the Ent Prime Refit engine room. That thing was awesome.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Oh man that looks sweet
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Oh, and if you ever do Movie era interiors, see if you can dig up Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise. The original blueprints, and it has all sorts of odd ideas to fill out a TMP era interior and add some extra flavor to current interiors as well. At least, if you promise to use the ST VI engine room instead of the Ent Prime Refit engine room. That thing was awesome.

    This.

    Even though it's a book and books aren't canon, most of the imagery in it came straight from the movie design notes and set plans.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    PodSix wrote:
    But it's 2409. and after 200 some years in service, Starfleet decided that for morale reasons it was important for the crew to occasionally see the majesty of deep space.

    I mean really, we can't have young Lieutenants going crazy, locking themselves in main engineering and singing "I'll take you home again, Kathleen" anymore.

    Nothing good can come from a five-year mission in a tincan without windows.

    Sort of defeats the point of having a 'retro 2260s' interior, if it's only going to get 'updated' to fit in with the style of the 2409 stuff - we've already got the existing 2409 bridges for that! :p

    Indeed, that's my main argument for stylistic fidelity - it's the sole selling point for this interior pack to replicate the look of the original Enterprise. Start playing fast-and-loose with it, and it's just another 'inspired by ______' interior like the current bridges/interiors, which defeats the point of having it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I hate to say it but The artist's need to go back and watch the original series again. The lounge area on the TOS ship did not have windows. First episode was the pilot episode with Kirk in command He and spock were playing 3 dimensional chess. 2nd episode with the lounge was Charlie X of first season. Uhura singing and Spock Playing the Vulcan Harp> The rooms have Replicators but no windows. Other than that that would be a good size for 10 forward on the Galaxy class
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I for one don't mind the windows, they're not the same shape as the windows on the outside model, thats the only thing I don't like. I love the rest to death.

    Even if it released the way it is now, I'd still get it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I have no real issue with there being windows there. I just thing the curved bulkhead beams look more TMP then they do TOS. doesn't matter much to me I want it anyways.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Terral wrote:
    The one on the left is the kill 1000 Romulans trophy. No idea what that one on the right is, but I'm inclined to believe it's a trophy for completing this Featured Episode series.

    Thanks, 7 more Romulans to go!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    This is a case where I think it's fine, I mean sure the lounge we saw in TOS didn't have windows but I would think there would be more than one lounge...this one just happens to be one along the row of windows.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Technically, there was one ship from a show that had the budget for windows, that still wasn't designed with them, the defiant, but that was only becuase it was a warship. It had what appeared to be metal plates over the windows. I hope you do leave out the windows when and if you make a Defiant Interior pack, since it is a warship. Here's the pic of the Defiant's mess hall:

    http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:USS_Defiant_mess_hall.jpg

    This is true, and this was also backed up by the exterior shots of the Defiant and it's sparse windows;

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_QiEcZ7NVgZY/SaG3glkreiI/AAAAAAAAAVY/NY0DVJow2ew/s1600-h/USS_Defiant.jpg

    In comparison, the TOS Enterprise did have windows in the exterior shots, but rarely if ever showed interior windows due to stated budget issues;

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/__lmh1AxLA7c/TU71rISMdGI/AAAAAAAABXM/Wydf29XtRUg/s1600/Enterprise.jpg

    While it has nowhere near the windows that a Galaxy Class had (as TNG had a much bigger budget and better FX tech), it would be safe to say that lounge areas of a TOS Constitution would be an obvious place for windows to be. The row of large windows on the saucer section shown in the pic would be a good candidate.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    That's a sweet looking lounge, looking forward to this set, and keep the windows. In space nobody can hear you scream about the budget. :p

    ---
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I think it makes even more sense to assume this is a different lounge based on where the windows are too.

    If this is supposed to be on the outer rim of the saucer the windows would need to be in the lower section of the wall shown there or where they are but protruded out to the same angle as the lower wall...depending on if its the upper or lower deck.

    Where the windows are shown in the STO version looks like it might fit best in the B/C section just below the bridge with that upper row of windows on either side. Which if the TOS version had been there we should have seen the windows.

    So going on the design of both versions it makes sense for them to in different areas.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Well, I think it looks great. And the truth is, I don't want the original seemingly windowless mess hall of the original Enterprise. I want a mess hall in the TOS style but updated to the game.

    I think adding windows that may or may not have been in the original design (if the budget would have been bigger) is a good idea. Especially from a psychological point of view: If there's a room that should be relaxing, it needs to have windows. And if a room can have windows it's a non essential room like a mess hall.

    Also, Star Trek made it clear that what you see is not a window made of glass but essentially a window made from the same durable material as the rest of the hull.

    And when talking about the Defiant: Its mess hall isn't on deck 1, is it?
    Because that would essentially be the only deck that would allow windows in the ceiling. Now if it isn't on deck 1, it will mean that the ship couldn't have windows and they tried to create a window-like lightsource.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Here is a quick example of what I was suggesting, where this lounge would fit along with the windows in the B/C deck but not along the outer edge based on where they are.

    http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/9889/loungelocation1.png
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Skippy2k wrote: »
    Here is a quick example of what I was suggesting, where this lounge would fit along with the windows in the B/C deck but not along the outer edge based on where they are.

    http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/7448/loungelocation.png

    You seem to be right.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I see the Nitpick Train has arrived at Aggravation Station. ;)

    Let's all remember that the Connie Refit had ginormous panaramic windows, and this was constructed in an era not too far off from the original Connie. The Retrofit's architecture also had a movie's budget while the original did not. I'm up for listing the lack of windows as 'budget constraints' on TOS, and not as an explicit choice not to put them in.

    I don't see this as nitpicking. Complaining that the Replicators aren't high enough off the ground is nitpicking. Complaining that a table is has 8 chairs instead of 10 is nitpicking. Pointing out that that room looks nothing like the show is not nitpicking. It's one thing if this was a room we never saw. However the lounge is a room we saw quite a few times in TOS.

    It's like designing the bridge to look like the Galaxies bridge from "Masks" near teh end and rolling it out as the standard Galaxy bridge.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Skippy2k wrote: »
    Here is a quick example of what I was suggesting, where this lounge would fit along with the windows in the B/C deck but not along the outer edge based on where they are.

    http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/9889/loungelocation1.png

    That's one of the locations I said it would have to be a while back, although I didn't recall windows on the bridge cake (I know that's the HD touchup, have to go back and see if they had those there on the original model). Also of note: the Franz Joseph blueprints show that area is where the CO's ready room, XO's office, and briefing/conference room are located
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Wow, just wow, it looks great I can't wait untill that stuff goes live.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    That's one of the locations I said it would have to be a while back, although I didn't recall windows on the bridge cake (I know that's the HD touchup, have to go back and see if they had those there on the original model). Also of note: the Franz Joseph blueprints show that area is where the CO's ready room, XO's office, and briefing/conference room are located

    Sorry, must have missed it. Going by the twitter pic it just fit better there. Are you talking that lone dot on the upper bridge dome? If so that's not actually a window its one of the blinking lights just while it was unlit.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I'm rather ambivalent about this. At once I never remember seeing any windows on any interior set except the one where Kirk was kidnapped to a replica Enterprise (so he could give his fever to the overpopulated world there so they could start dying an) and yet there were clearly windows on the exterior of the hull. Not a whole heck of a lot, but they were there.

    But the windows were all round, right? Trying to remember. >.<
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Been looking forward to TOS Interiors ever since Open Beta and the Gamestop Pre-Order Bonus!

    So the STO version has windows and the bridge is probably larger than it should be... meh... I will try my hardest not to be picky and just appreciate the effort put into making these interiors look AWESOME!

    Can't wait to spend money on this one! :)
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