funny how other MMO's seem to manage just fine :rolleyes:
I can only presume to which you are referring, and in all cases I counter with the fact of how small our team is and how debatably small our playerbase is when compared with other 'World' sized MMOs. I probably can't convince you of this, but this is the rationalization that has been used here.
I can only presume to which you are referring, and in all cases I counter with the fact of how small our team is and how debatably small our playerbase is when compared with other 'World' sized MMOs. I probably can't convince you of this, but this is the rationalization that has been used here.
uhm, STO has one of the highest subscription counts of current MMO's, as for the size of the team, what does that have to do with it? get a bigger team then. not my problem.
as I said, other MMO's seem to manage and deliver content on a sustainable basis just from monthly subs just fine. :rolleyes:
uhm, STO has one of the highest subscription counts of current MMO's, as for the size of the team, what does that have to do with it? get a bigger team then. not my problem.
as I said, other MMO's seem to manage and deliver content on a sustainable basis just from monthly subs just fine. :rolleyes:
uhm, STO has one of the highest subscription counts of current MMO's, as for the size of the team, what does that have to do with it? get a bigger team then. not my problem.
as I said, other MMO's seem to manage and deliver content on a sustainable basis just from monthly subs just fine. :rolleyes:
There's so much of that I'd like to believe, but unless I'm slapped in the face with subscription data graphs and charts I presume the worst and think we have a small sub base. Then my other presumptions are inferred from there. I always hope I'm wrong and we're a big kid on the block now. :cool:
There's so much of that I'd like to believe, but unless I'm slapped in the face with subscription data graphs and charts I presume the worst and think we have a small sub base. Then my other presumptions are inferred from there. I always hope I'm wrong and we're a big kid on the block now. :cool:
No company, not even the largest one, will ever provide you with that data. So, that this smaller one doesn't do it is no more telling than the larger ones not doing so either. You're making an assumption, albeit an incorrect one, and blaming Cryptic for it.
The simplest and wisest answer is also the most true: You (individually or collectively) don't know enough to say.
No company, not even the largest one, will ever provide you with that data. So, that this smaller one doesn't do it is no more telling than the larger ones not doing so either. You're making an assumption, albeit an incorrect one, and blaming Cryptic for it.
The simplest and wisest answer is also the most true: You (individually or collectively) don't know enough to say.
Exactly, which is why I had the correlary about me hoping to be wrong. I know they don't give up sub figures, and we're actually lucky to glean as much as we can when the financial reports come out.
Although I'm curious what I'm blaming cryptic for?
funny how other MMO's seem to manage just fine :rolleyes:
Actually, the other "MMOs" have been around significantly longer. And, as I'm sure you didn't mention, they didn't start out with a massive population either. This grew and contracted over time. In fact, near the end of most expansion life-cycles, the population in the games is significantly smaller. With, of course, the {new} expansion bringing many people back and new subscribers.
You seem to wonder why this game hasn't started out at the same level the others have achieved after years. That seems to be the fault in your logic. It took them years and a lot of hard work to make that happen. Cryptic will get there. Catch 22 paradox of logic or not.
Edit for word clarity.
Edit 2 to add: Believe it or not, the 'other MMOs' also have engaged in micro transactions of a different variety to fund their efforts that the initial purchase (of game + subsequent expansions + monthly) fees did not. Don't believe me? Race changes ($25), Server transfers ($25), Faction Changes ($25), etc. (There's more obviously) And that's just one game. Cryptic may have made this in smaller chunks (and easier, I'd argue, on the wallet) and in one place in-game to find them. But, that doesn't mean other larger MMOs haven't done the same thing. It's just not as readily apparent until you think about it for 30 seconds.
Exactly, which is why I had the correlary about me hoping to be wrong. I know they don't give up sub figures, and we're actually lucky to glean as much as we can when the financial reports come out.
Although I'm curious what I'm blaming cryptic for?
I presume the worst and think we have a small sub base. Then my other presumptions are inferred from there
It's not a valid assumption. You're assuming worst case scenario with insufficient information. In fact, if anything, it's a very uneducated guess. (Opinion might be more apropos.)
If you make a faulty assumption and then base future assumptions on that faulty assumption, how can anything you decide (with respect to that assumption) be based on any credible or useful information? In short, it can't. It's like building a house of cards with the cards made of wet spaghetti noodles.
It's not a valid assumption. You're assuming worst case scenario with insufficient information. In fact, if anything, it's a very uneducated guess. (Opinion might be more apropos.)
If you make a faulty assumption and then base future assumptions on that faulty assumption, how can anything you decide (with respect to that assumption) be based on any credible or useful information? In short, it can't. It's like building a house of cards with the cards made of wet spaghetti noodles.
Yes, you are correct. Me making the presumption that things are bad is a bad inference, but I'm an old cynic at heart and don't like to be disappointed. This is not the result of Cryptic's part, but actually by own life, so I mean no disrespect against the game for having such an attitude. And you are right, everything I say is opinion. Hence why I use the word inferences instead of deductions, as I truly have no facts to make a real deduction.
This is on the schedule, and we will get it in as soon along with other additions to craftable items in Memory Alpha. I'm waiting on a few last items so I can put them all in at once.
That's good to hear, b/c I was wondering why the Delta wasn't craftable when the new FEatured Series began :rolleyes:
Me making the presumption that things are bad is a bad inference, but I'm an old cynic at heart and don't like to be disappointed. This is not the result of Cryptic's part, but actually by own life, so I mean no disrespect against the game for having such an attitude.
I understand. I'm just trying to get people to look at their approach and logic rather than making any personal assessments about them. This way, if you bring an issue up to Cryptic, you do so with as little emotional bias and background noise as is possible. It helps them to make better decisions and provide content.
My basis for this is largely from the fact that the game has massively evolved from a year ago. Its evolution has directly influenced by the majority of subscriber complaints and wishlists. I loved it a year ago. I really love it now. I have my own wishlist, but I completely and totally respect Mr. Stahl and his team for listening to the biggest complaint first: Bugfixes and stability. If your game is not stable or playable, you won't have customers for long. Content is the next piece on the list. Featured episodes definitely hit the mark on that (which very very few MMOs actually can pull off. To date, the closest analog I have seen in other games is a random weekly/daily quest and that's not even directly comparable).
No company is without fault or problem. I recognize that entirely. But, based on the 15-18 years of my online MMO gaming experience, this one has certainly listened to the subscriber base the most and acted accordingly. There's little to argue on that point. So, I'd say give them some credit, they've earned it. And, I'd also argue giving them the benefit of the doubt more often would allow them to do the same with everyone else.
Our attitudes are shown in our responses to them. If we can bring up issues in a reasonable and respectable manner, again with less background noise, and highlight current issues (as well as where it will likely have long-term in-game impact), you'll find they'll be much more responsive. (Which is just crazy, they're already up to all hours of the night, {ahem, dstahl} addressing issues on the forums.)
Don't ever back them into the corner and push them into being jaded like the other developers and forum managers of other games. Those folks are so far removed that they don't see the problem and treat the user base like bugs. I'd rather not see that here.
Having those people work and fix things require funds, and with Atari doing its best to survive in this economy, a lot of money is going up the parent publisher than into Cryptic. There needs to be a secondary stream of revenue. Also, these each type of designer would be working on different things anyway, as a costume designer can't make a Klingon mission; he makes costumes. So why not sell those costumes to help pay the level designers or pay for more level designers?
Because they have shown time and again they are not going to hire more people, if anything, they have lost people to new products. The player base pays for the service provided through monthly subs and or lifetime subs. A Micro transaction store in and of itself does not keep any game going, it just adds gravy to the pot.
I wish people would stop defending them as the reason new stuff gets entered into games, or provides more revenue to hire more people. They are and always have been money grabs, that's it, not a way to improve service.
Because they have shown time and again they are not going to hire more people, if anything, they have lost people to new products. The player base pays for the service provided through monthly subs and or lifetime subs. A Micro transaction store in and of itself does not keep any game going, it just adds gravy to the pot.
I wish people would stop defending them as the reason new stuff gets entered into games, or provides more revenue to hire more people. They are and always have been money grabs, that's it, not a way to improve service.
Then what about ThomasTheCat and Jesse Heinig? They were new hires that did amazing work, and I will defend their existence.
TrentTyler - your post is a bit off topic and unfair. The question was asking when will the Delta Flyer be added as a craftable in game. I have been giving updates on this and since I'm personally doing the work to add it to the store, it is waiting on my schedule until I have all the craftables ready that I've asked for.
I hear your frustration about the c-store - but i'm going to re-iterate again just for you - the vast majority of our time is spent on improving the game and adding new content. The argument that we spend all our time working on a c-store item is complete speculative rubbish. The manpower hours it is taking to make Episode 4 for this Saturday vs. say the Delta Flyer is on a 100:1 scale. It is difficult to explain all the hours it takes to make content vs making an item like the Delta Flyer.
But that's only part of it. The items that go into the c-store are either items we make on the side or outsource. Many times we have a desire to put various assets into the game and have to pick and choose what we do next. Having the c-store as an option to sell items players are asking for gives us an avenue to offset costs.
Are there bugs in the game? yes. Do we have to prioritize what is worked on next? yes. We make bug fixes at every opportunity we get. Our release notes will prove that. It is sucky having to prioritize everything, but we really are a very small team and so far I think we are striking a good balance between bug fixing, new content, new features, and c-store items. We put things in the c-store that people ask for that we would normally not have time to make because the revenue can help with offsetting costs (such as getting additional help or outsourcing).
I recognize that subscribers have stuck with the game despite several issues you may not like, and that is why I continue to prioritize new content and bug fixes higher in the list than microtransactions and give proportionately much more time to those items.
As far as the Delta Flyer being craftable - that is another area where I've put my foot down with a goal that subscribers should always have an alternative in-game method of earning items. With this policy in mind - to then say that we are "miking" isn't fair at all . No one is forcing you to buy anything and if anything we are going out of way to ensure subscribers can get the same items without spending points in the c-store. We aren't 100% to the point where every microtransaction is obtainable with in game currency, but we get closer with every update.
Your post comes across as frustration and I can share in your frustrations. My track record at continuing to support more PVE for KDF and addressing issues should speak for itself.
I just think you're being a little unfair in your statements and wanted to provide more insight. You don't have to trust or believe me. I'll let our updates continue to speak for themselves and you'll have to decide if we are making progress or not.
There is no denying that progress has been made, i never said there wasn't. What i have stated is that resources spent"to outsource" your statement not mine, would be better off spent on Hiring the people that can fix things that have been broken or left out or just plain forgotten about that were promised to be in game at launch. We are past our one year anniversary and still things are broken from release or never implemented.
When the response is always "they are working on it", give "them a break", or its different people working on the issue, you have to admit, it is frustrating, especially when outsourced resources, never, ever return the same amount as a in house section.
Because they have shown time and again they are not going to hire more people, if anything, they have lost people to new products. The player base pays for the service provided through monthly subs and or lifetime subs. A Micro transaction store in and of itself does not keep any game going, it just adds gravy to the pot.
Sorry, Guildwars is a model that proves micro transactions work (and has for years). World of Warcraft also did the same thing but didn't call it a store. You can do similar transactions, including novelty pets, for a great deal more money than Cryptic is asking for their micro transactions. Those are but 2 relevant examples.
You're making a few bad assumptions. You don't know the amount of constant upkeep (not including development) on existing technical or personnel resources. You can't unless you are privy to the bookkeeping for the organization. Unless you're hiding some credentials you're not telling us about, you can't possibly know that. You're assuming. And, unfortunately, you're wrong.
I know much about what is required from a technical perspective since that's part of my job (and has been for just a little under 2 decades at the companies I've worked at). I've worked at several startup and existing software development companies. I've also worked at ISPs. If anything, I know how much this will cost them to make things work from a much more reasonable basis and still know that I don't have all the facts. What I do know, however, says it will barely cover the expenses just on the monthly subscriptions alone.
I wish people would stop defending them as the reason new stuff gets entered into games, or provides more revenue to hire more people. They are and always have been money grabs, that's it, not a way to improve service.
It's probable the argument should be flipped back at you. "I wish people like you would stop attacking them for improving their service and charging accordingly." It's clear you don't know or care what the reasoning is. And you're making faulty assumptions about intent in regards to them. That's very, very bad.
Because they have shown time and again they are not going to hire more people, if anything, they have lost people to new products. The player base pays for the service provided through monthly subs and or lifetime subs. A Micro transaction store in and of itself does not keep any game going, it just adds gravy to the pot.
I wish people would stop defending them as the reason new stuff gets entered into games, or provides more revenue to hire more people. They are and always have been money grabs, that's it, not a way to improve service.
Only thing I'd liked to ask is where your getting your facts? Can you provide proof for any of this? I'd like to see it for my own edification if nothing else. Seriously speaking I am subscribed to 3 different MMO's at the current time, of the three, ALL of them have other than monthly/lifetime sub income. I'd be pretty surprised if some of that income did not benefit the game itself.
Sorry, Guildwars is a model that proves micro transactions work (and has for years). World of Warcraft also did the same thing but didn't call it a store. You can do similar transactions, including novelty pets, for a great deal more money than Cryptic is asking for their micro transactions. Those are but 2 relevant examples.
You're making a few bad assumptions. You don't know the amount of constant upkeep (not including development) on existing technical or personnel resources. You can't unless you are privy to the bookkeeping for the organization. Unless you're hiding some credentials you're not telling us about, you can't possibly know that. You're assuming. And, unfortunately, you're wrong.
I know much about what is required from a technical perspective since that's part of my job (and has been for just a little under 2 decades at the companies I've worked at). I've worked at several startup and existing software development companies. I've also worked at ISPs. If anything, I know how much this will cost them to make things work from a much more reasonable basis and still know that I don't have all the facts. What I do know, however, says it will barely cover the expenses just on the monthly subscriptions alone.
It's probable the argument should be flipped back at you. "I wish people like you would stop attacking them for improving their service and charging accordingly." It's clear you don't know or care what the reasoning is. And you're making faulty assumptions about intent in regards to them. That's very, very bad.
You are using a circular argument and trying to imply you know the cost of running business at Cryptic, and unless you are a employing privy to said info, you can not say your right and I"m wrong. Your also implying i have no idea what it cost to run or be part of a start up company , and again, your making the assumption, not i. Any time you out source work, revenue is lost, or not spent completely inline with what you want to do with finances, its the nature of out sourcing.
funny how other MMO's seem to manage just fine :rolleyes:
If by fine, you mean the massive declines in growth (even WOW has plateaued) and added item malls in WoW, WAR, AoC (soon), most SOE titles, and all the F2p/item mall games, etc. Shuttered games within a few months (APB, Auto Assault, etc.)
I think you've cherry picked one title while completely ignoring the item malls in other games (and EQ2's item mall was still larger than STO's, even before F2P).
My argument has merit. You suggested other games are doing fine, they're not. By and far, the industry looks hit hard.
You are using a circular argument and trying to imply you know the cost of running business at Cryptic
Actually, I said I had more technical experience and still know enough to say I don't know. Go back and read it.
, and unless you are a employing privy to said info, you can not say your right and I"m wrong. Your also implying i have no idea what it cost to run or be part of a start up company , and again, your making the assumption, not i. Any time you out source work, revenue is lost, or not spent completely inline with what you want to do with finances, its the nature of out sourcing.
You've made a lot of bad assumptions in your previous post. You don't want to directly address any of the points I made, snagged what you thought was an incorrect statement (and it wasn't), and latched on to that for your reply.
I don't mind a healthy debate. But you're not providing one.
Edit to add: For reference, I said (and the referenced post hasn't been edited by me yet):
Actually, I said I had more technical experience and still know enough to say I don't know. Go back and read it.
You've made a lot of bad assumptions in your previous post. You don't want to directly address any of the points I made, snagged what you thought was an incorrect statement (and it wasn't), and latched on to that for your reply.
I don't mind a healthy debate. But you're not providing one.
And now you try to attack my post, well i expect nothing else tbh, if your gonna put your head in a hole in the ground and honestly stand by your assumptions and presumptions, nothing i say can or will open your eyes. Just my opinion, you don't have to like it.
And now you try to attack my post, well i expect nothing else tbh, if your gonna put your head in a hole in the ground and honestly stand by your assumptions and presumptions, nothing i say can or will open your eyes. Just my opinion, you don't have to like it.
I was very clear in my statements. If anything, you're deflecting the issue. I respect opinions. But you're not stating these as opinion. Your phrasing, stance, and reactions are all indicative of someone perceiving being attacked for making factual statements. Unfortunately, they're not factual. They're opinion. A modification of your phrasing, posture, and reactions would yield a different result.
I wasn't the only one who received this impression from your posting (3 so far by my count). Perhaps that should tell you something.
I was very clear in my statements. If anything, you're deflecting the issue. I respect opinions. But you're not stating these as opinion. Your phrasing, stance, and reactions are all indicative of someone perceiving being attacked for making factual statements. Unfortunately, they're not factual. They're opinion. A modification of your phrasing, posture, and reactions would yield a different result.
I wasn't the only one who received this impression from your posting (3 so far by my count). Perhaps that should tell you something.
And now you presume to know my state of mind? all i did was relate, from my perspective, what has been going on, never did i state anything as fact, until dstahl posted a reply about out sourcing.
This reaction is the exact reason most people in MMO's never use the forums. Twisting what has been said, and attacking any post not inline with a perceived consensus.
If now your gonna say, you haven't attacked my post and im being hostile in my wording, i honestly don't know what to tell you, unless your that person that needs to hear"your right". If that's the case, then i cant help help you, because there is no right or wrong in civil discourses only opinions, and each have merit, but neither is wrong or wright
And now you presume to know my state of mind? all i did was relate, from my perspective, what has been going on, never did i state anything as fact, until dstahl posted a reply about out sourcing.
This reaction is the exact reason most people in MMO's never use the forums. Twisting what has been said, and attacking any post not inline with a perceived consensus.
If now your gonna say, you haven't attacked my post and im being hostile in my wording, i honestly don't know what to tell you, unless your that person that needs to hear"your right". If that's the case, then i cant help help you, because there is no right or wrong in civil discourses only opinions, and each have merit, but neither is wrong or wright
She isn't the person to need to hear she's right. She is a critic of personalized logic. Don't take it personally. She makes us stronger by analyzing our positions for weaknesses.
all i did was relate, from my perspective, what has been going on, never did i state anything as fact, until dstahl posted a reply about out sourcing.
You didn't? Reference which part of your post was an opinion and not put forth as a fact in your subsequent replies. You then made claims about something I didn't say and got corrected. So, I'm intrigued to see where you're going with this.
This reaction is the exact reason most people in MMO's never use the forums. Twisting what has been said, and attacking any post not inline with a perceived consensus.
Ironically, you should look at your posting in this thread for proof of how that gets done. Before casting stones, make sure you're not guilty.
If now your gonna say, you haven't attacked my post and im being hostile in my wording, i honestly don't know what to tell you, unless your that person that needs to hear"your right". If that's the case, then i cant help help you, because there is no right or wrong in civil discourses only opinions, and each have merit, but neither is wrong or wright
I don't make personal attacks. I refute posts because that's the more civil thing to do - and the only thing I can do with credible knowledge. But, now you're obviously straying well away from the original point (and it threatens to derail the thread entirely). Your statements are giving the impression you have knowledge (and not presented as opinion or belief). Others have said as much in this thread, independently of me, about how you are wrong. Now, you've decided to admit it was opinion - not fact.
That's fine. But, that doesn't negate what dstahl (or other cryptic employee) has said: the c-store provides funding for development. Until you can provide proof otherwise, you should say, "I think (state opinion) is true." Not "(opinion) is true".
Try to think of this as a way for you to improve your communication to receive less misinterpretations rather than as a personal attack.
uhm, STO has one of the highest subscription counts of current MMO's, as for the size of the team, what does that have to do with it? get a bigger team then. not my problem.
as I said, other MMO's seem to manage and deliver content on a sustainable basis just from monthly subs just fine. :rolleyes:
All of the large MMO's have a cash store. Blizzard doesn't add to theirs too often, but DDO and LOTRO promote their cash stores much more heavily then STO does. Interestingly, the move to a cash store model for DDO has moved it from being in serious jeopardy of going under to the number 3 MMO in the world. That has also done a lot for them getting more content out there.
No MMO, not even WoW, delivers more content faster than it can be consumed. Sure, STO can deliver content on a sustainable basis without the store, but the store lets them do more, and while something is better than nothing, nothing is better than more.
While I realize to some extent gamers might not care about the fiscal realities of producing games and getting them to market, and making them sustainable, maybe they should. As an overall entity the gaming industry has been hurting bad for a long time, with a few cash cows here and their propping up their parent companies. I guess it might feel powerful to say "hire more people, not my problem" but when the industry stagnates and you don't get any new or interesting games to play, maybe then you might think a bit more about business realities.
I find the industry overall pretty interesting, in the hows and whys of it all, I often wish I had a more technical background so I could be on the inside. I think Cryptic has carved itself a pretty nifty niche in the market, and they are awesomely local too, it be awesome to be part of a team like that.
You didn't? Reference which part of your post was an opinion and not put forth as a fact in your subsequent replies. You then made claims about something I didn't say and got corrected. So, I'm intrigued to see where you're going with this.
Ironically, you should look at your posting in this thread for proof of how that gets done. Before casting stones, make sure you're not guilty.
I don't make personal attacks. I refute posts because that's the more civil thing to do - and the only thing I can do with credible knowledge. But, now you're obviously straying well away from the original point (and it threatens to derail the thread entirely). Your statements are giving the impression you have knowledge (and not presented as opinion or belief). Others have said as much in this thread, independently of me, about how you are wrong. Now, you've decided to admit it was opinion - not fact.
That's fine. But, that doesn't negate what dstahl (or other cryptic employee) has said: the c-store provides funding for development. Until you can provide proof otherwise, you should say, "I think (state opinion) is true." Not "(opinion) is true".
Try to think of this as a way for you to improve your communication to receive less misinterpretations rather than as a personal attack.
Love it when people are so full of themselves they can not admit they are way off track, I can not control how you perceived my original post, I could just have easily said, "the sun will rise tomorrow" is that a fact? absolutely not, but is it most likely? probably, but even with all you fancy retorts, i still stand by my original reply to the OP, if you don't agree with it, that's fine, and have a nice day. I'm Sure you will come back with something you feel is witty for a remark, but its O.K, im enjoying reading your reply's.
Comments
funny how other MMO's seem to manage just fine :rolleyes:
I can only presume to which you are referring, and in all cases I counter with the fact of how small our team is and how debatably small our playerbase is when compared with other 'World' sized MMOs. I probably can't convince you of this, but this is the rationalization that has been used here.
"Computer, delete dynametric tail fins."
/Tuvok
uhm, STO has one of the highest subscription counts of current MMO's, as for the size of the team, what does that have to do with it? get a bigger team then. not my problem.
as I said, other MMO's seem to manage and deliver content on a sustainable basis just from monthly subs just fine. :rolleyes:
you and I are barking at the same tree.
There's so much of that I'd like to believe, but unless I'm slapped in the face with subscription data graphs and charts I presume the worst and think we have a small sub base. Then my other presumptions are inferred from there. I always hope I'm wrong and we're a big kid on the block now. :cool:
No company, not even the largest one, will ever provide you with that data. So, that this smaller one doesn't do it is no more telling than the larger ones not doing so either. You're making an assumption, albeit an incorrect one, and blaming Cryptic for it.
The simplest and wisest answer is also the most true: You (individually or collectively) don't know enough to say.
Exactly, which is why I had the correlary about me hoping to be wrong. I know they don't give up sub figures, and we're actually lucky to glean as much as we can when the financial reports come out.
Although I'm curious what I'm blaming cryptic for?
Actually, the other "MMOs" have been around significantly longer. And, as I'm sure you didn't mention, they didn't start out with a massive population either. This grew and contracted over time. In fact, near the end of most expansion life-cycles, the population in the games is significantly smaller. With, of course, the {new} expansion bringing many people back and new subscribers.
You seem to wonder why this game hasn't started out at the same level the others have achieved after years. That seems to be the fault in your logic. It took them years and a lot of hard work to make that happen. Cryptic will get there. Catch 22 paradox of logic or not.
Edit for word clarity.
Edit 2 to add: Believe it or not, the 'other MMOs' also have engaged in micro transactions of a different variety to fund their efforts that the initial purchase (of game + subsequent expansions + monthly) fees did not. Don't believe me? Race changes ($25), Server transfers ($25), Faction Changes ($25), etc. (There's more obviously) And that's just one game. Cryptic may have made this in smaller chunks (and easier, I'd argue, on the wallet) and in one place in-game to find them. But, that doesn't mean other larger MMOs haven't done the same thing. It's just not as readily apparent until you think about it for 30 seconds.
This:
It's not a valid assumption. You're assuming worst case scenario with insufficient information. In fact, if anything, it's a very uneducated guess. (Opinion might be more apropos.)
If you make a faulty assumption and then base future assumptions on that faulty assumption, how can anything you decide (with respect to that assumption) be based on any credible or useful information? In short, it can't. It's like building a house of cards with the cards made of wet spaghetti noodles.
Yes, you are correct. Me making the presumption that things are bad is a bad inference, but I'm an old cynic at heart and don't like to be disappointed. This is not the result of Cryptic's part, but actually by own life, so I mean no disrespect against the game for having such an attitude. And you are right, everything I say is opinion. Hence why I use the word inferences instead of deductions, as I truly have no facts to make a real deduction.
That's good to hear, b/c I was wondering why the Delta wasn't craftable when the new FEatured Series began :rolleyes:
I understand. I'm just trying to get people to look at their approach and logic rather than making any personal assessments about them. This way, if you bring an issue up to Cryptic, you do so with as little emotional bias and background noise as is possible. It helps them to make better decisions and provide content.
My basis for this is largely from the fact that the game has massively evolved from a year ago. Its evolution has directly influenced by the majority of subscriber complaints and wishlists. I loved it a year ago. I really love it now. I have my own wishlist, but I completely and totally respect Mr. Stahl and his team for listening to the biggest complaint first: Bugfixes and stability. If your game is not stable or playable, you won't have customers for long. Content is the next piece on the list. Featured episodes definitely hit the mark on that (which very very few MMOs actually can pull off. To date, the closest analog I have seen in other games is a random weekly/daily quest and that's not even directly comparable).
No company is without fault or problem. I recognize that entirely. But, based on the 15-18 years of my online MMO gaming experience, this one has certainly listened to the subscriber base the most and acted accordingly. There's little to argue on that point. So, I'd say give them some credit, they've earned it. And, I'd also argue giving them the benefit of the doubt more often would allow them to do the same with everyone else.
Our attitudes are shown in our responses to them. If we can bring up issues in a reasonable and respectable manner, again with less background noise, and highlight current issues (as well as where it will likely have long-term in-game impact), you'll find they'll be much more responsive. (Which is just crazy, they're already up to all hours of the night, {ahem, dstahl} addressing issues on the forums.)
Don't ever back them into the corner and push them into being jaded like the other developers and forum managers of other games. Those folks are so far removed that they don't see the problem and treat the user base like bugs. I'd rather not see that here.
Because they have shown time and again they are not going to hire more people, if anything, they have lost people to new products. The player base pays for the service provided through monthly subs and or lifetime subs. A Micro transaction store in and of itself does not keep any game going, it just adds gravy to the pot.
I wish people would stop defending them as the reason new stuff gets entered into games, or provides more revenue to hire more people. They are and always have been money grabs, that's it, not a way to improve service.
Then what about ThomasTheCat and Jesse Heinig? They were new hires that did amazing work, and I will defend their existence.
There is no denying that progress has been made, i never said there wasn't. What i have stated is that resources spent"to outsource" your statement not mine, would be better off spent on Hiring the people that can fix things that have been broken or left out or just plain forgotten about that were promised to be in game at launch. We are past our one year anniversary and still things are broken from release or never implemented.
When the response is always "they are working on it", give "them a break", or its different people working on the issue, you have to admit, it is frustrating, especially when outsourced resources, never, ever return the same amount as a in house section.
Sorry, Guildwars is a model that proves micro transactions work (and has for years). World of Warcraft also did the same thing but didn't call it a store. You can do similar transactions, including novelty pets, for a great deal more money than Cryptic is asking for their micro transactions. Those are but 2 relevant examples.
You're making a few bad assumptions. You don't know the amount of constant upkeep (not including development) on existing technical or personnel resources. You can't unless you are privy to the bookkeeping for the organization. Unless you're hiding some credentials you're not telling us about, you can't possibly know that. You're assuming. And, unfortunately, you're wrong.
I know much about what is required from a technical perspective since that's part of my job (and has been for just a little under 2 decades at the companies I've worked at). I've worked at several startup and existing software development companies. I've also worked at ISPs. If anything, I know how much this will cost them to make things work from a much more reasonable basis and still know that I don't have all the facts. What I do know, however, says it will barely cover the expenses just on the monthly subscriptions alone.
It's probable the argument should be flipped back at you. "I wish people like you would stop attacking them for improving their service and charging accordingly." It's clear you don't know or care what the reasoning is. And you're making faulty assumptions about intent in regards to them. That's very, very bad.
Only thing I'd liked to ask is where your getting your facts? Can you provide proof for any of this? I'd like to see it for my own edification if nothing else. Seriously speaking I am subscribed to 3 different MMO's at the current time, of the three, ALL of them have other than monthly/lifetime sub income. I'd be pretty surprised if some of that income did not benefit the game itself.
You are using a circular argument and trying to imply you know the cost of running business at Cryptic, and unless you are a employing privy to said info, you can not say your right and I"m wrong. Your also implying i have no idea what it cost to run or be part of a start up company , and again, your making the assumption, not i. Any time you out source work, revenue is lost, or not spent completely inline with what you want to do with finances, its the nature of out sourcing.
If by fine, you mean the massive declines in growth (even WOW has plateaued) and added item malls in WoW, WAR, AoC (soon), most SOE titles, and all the F2p/item mall games, etc. Shuttered games within a few months (APB, Auto Assault, etc.)
I think you've cherry picked one title while completely ignoring the item malls in other games (and EQ2's item mall was still larger than STO's, even before F2P).
My argument has merit. You suggested other games are doing fine, they're not. By and far, the industry looks hit hard.
Precisely. He's arguing opinion as if it were fact.
Actually, I said I had more technical experience and still know enough to say I don't know. Go back and read it.
You've made a lot of bad assumptions in your previous post. You don't want to directly address any of the points I made, snagged what you thought was an incorrect statement (and it wasn't), and latched on to that for your reply.
I don't mind a healthy debate. But you're not providing one.
Edit to add: For reference, I said (and the referenced post hasn't been edited by me yet):
And now you try to attack my post, well i expect nothing else tbh, if your gonna put your head in a hole in the ground and honestly stand by your assumptions and presumptions, nothing i say can or will open your eyes. Just my opinion, you don't have to like it.
I was very clear in my statements. If anything, you're deflecting the issue. I respect opinions. But you're not stating these as opinion. Your phrasing, stance, and reactions are all indicative of someone perceiving being attacked for making factual statements. Unfortunately, they're not factual. They're opinion. A modification of your phrasing, posture, and reactions would yield a different result.
I wasn't the only one who received this impression from your posting (3 so far by my count). Perhaps that should tell you something.
And now you presume to know my state of mind? all i did was relate, from my perspective, what has been going on, never did i state anything as fact, until dstahl posted a reply about out sourcing.
This reaction is the exact reason most people in MMO's never use the forums. Twisting what has been said, and attacking any post not inline with a perceived consensus.
If now your gonna say, you haven't attacked my post and im being hostile in my wording, i honestly don't know what to tell you, unless your that person that needs to hear"your right". If that's the case, then i cant help help you, because there is no right or wrong in civil discourses only opinions, and each have merit, but neither is wrong or wright
She isn't the person to need to hear she's right. She is a critic of personalized logic. Don't take it personally. She makes us stronger by analyzing our positions for weaknesses.
I can only respond to what I see.
You didn't? Reference which part of your post was an opinion and not put forth as a fact in your subsequent replies. You then made claims about something I didn't say and got corrected. So, I'm intrigued to see where you're going with this.
Ironically, you should look at your posting in this thread for proof of how that gets done. Before casting stones, make sure you're not guilty.
I don't make personal attacks. I refute posts because that's the more civil thing to do - and the only thing I can do with credible knowledge. But, now you're obviously straying well away from the original point (and it threatens to derail the thread entirely). Your statements are giving the impression you have knowledge (and not presented as opinion or belief). Others have said as much in this thread, independently of me, about how you are wrong. Now, you've decided to admit it was opinion - not fact.
That's fine. But, that doesn't negate what dstahl (or other cryptic employee) has said: the c-store provides funding for development. Until you can provide proof otherwise, you should say, "I think (state opinion) is true." Not "(opinion) is true".
Try to think of this as a way for you to improve your communication to receive less misinterpretations rather than as a personal attack.
All of the large MMO's have a cash store. Blizzard doesn't add to theirs too often, but DDO and LOTRO promote their cash stores much more heavily then STO does. Interestingly, the move to a cash store model for DDO has moved it from being in serious jeopardy of going under to the number 3 MMO in the world. That has also done a lot for them getting more content out there.
No MMO, not even WoW, delivers more content faster than it can be consumed. Sure, STO can deliver content on a sustainable basis without the store, but the store lets them do more, and while something is better than nothing, nothing is better than more.
While I realize to some extent gamers might not care about the fiscal realities of producing games and getting them to market, and making them sustainable, maybe they should. As an overall entity the gaming industry has been hurting bad for a long time, with a few cash cows here and their propping up their parent companies. I guess it might feel powerful to say "hire more people, not my problem" but when the industry stagnates and you don't get any new or interesting games to play, maybe then you might think a bit more about business realities.
I find the industry overall pretty interesting, in the hows and whys of it all, I often wish I had a more technical background so I could be on the inside. I think Cryptic has carved itself a pretty nifty niche in the market, and they are awesomely local too, it be awesome to be part of a team like that.
Love it when people are so full of themselves they can not admit they are way off track, I can not control how you perceived my original post, I could just have easily said, "the sun will rise tomorrow" is that a fact? absolutely not, but is it most likely? probably, but even with all you fancy retorts, i still stand by my original reply to the OP, if you don't agree with it, that's fine, and have a nice day. I'm Sure you will come back with something you feel is witty for a remark, but its O.K, im enjoying reading your reply's.