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no money? You mean you dont get paid?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited February 2011 in Ten Forward
Remember Picard's rhetoric to Alice or whatever her name is from First Contact? In the future humanity has evolved and work to better themselves?

Well that's all noble and all, but the truth is, even after thousands of years we still need some form of economy, and as the years go by it gets more complex, not less. So that is an unrealistic prediction of evolution.

The next thing is, I like how even the Star Trek writers forget their own diversity, 'humanity' was the word Picard used. It goes to show that in the Star Trek world humans really do see themselves as being 'better'.

Picard is in Starfleet which is the military arm of the Federation, not of Earth.

I am sure the other worlds don't have the same views on money and economy as evidenced by the gold pressed latinum which is highly sought after.

What about that little Andorian Ensign who left his homeworld to send back money for his 12 little hatchlings or whatever?

The idea that starfleet doesn't pay is ridiculous. There must be some form of Interstellar currency other than latinum. Not everyone lives on Earth.

what you guys think?
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Yes and no......

    Technically at the moment, we have all the things necessary to make huge advancements beyond our wildest dreams. We could be a lot more closer to Trek than we are now...only there is one problem holding us up...

    MONEY

    It is used as an excuse to utilize the materials needed to create something great. We already have the premise and materials needed to supply ALL people of this planet with everything they need to survive comfortably and then some...any roll of money at this point would be secondary motivations.

    Only those that don't want to lose their worldly possesions use money to keep us bound to slavery if you will.

    Granted, money will still exsist, but his proclomation that it is no longer the driving force in their lives is what makes the difference.

    He never said it doesnt exsist, only that it is not a necessity to have to live....if you didnt really need money to live, would you work if everything was provided for you?

    Food, Clothes, Schools, Shelter, Transportation, light entertainment? All these things could be provided for free breaking the binds of money.....at this point he is correct....it is not a driving force in the lives whom live this way.

    At this point the only need for money would be for those that live outside this structure model, or for anything out of want rather than need. Huge difference there.

    honestly I think this would be a better way to live......so one may pursue his/her passions, something they enjoy doing rather than grinding 8 hours for BS pay in a money hungry sociaty of haves and have nots.

    This is what I think he meant....IMO
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    this is one of those area that they never really explained.

    why do people like dax and riker win latinum at dabo. they can never use it and should not need to have it.

    how does quark maintain his business when most people are feds on ds9. do they replicate him some credits or do they pay for his power consumption. he always tells them no refunds or he'll add it to their tabs. what tabs, what did they pay him to get a refund?

    how does the federation buy supplies off of other races?

    how do people get clothes and food. do you just walk into a shop and take what you want? fancy going to a sport events or concert? do you just turn up or it is first come first served?

    its all very unclear.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Money forces no one into slavery, if anything it serves to set them free.

    Money is but a tool to facilitate the trade of unlike goods, between persons and groups that may not otherwise be able to accommodate each other through simple barter.

    The problems that we see in the world today is not about the pursuit of money as Star Trek often seems to suggest. The problems are more of due to the suffering brought on by tyranny and the lack of the ability of the individual to make decisions for themselves. In the free societies of the modern world there are those that do not have as many resources available to them as others, but that is due primarily to individuals making poor decisions for themselves. Even with this divide in the availability of resources the poor in free nations live in relative luxury, they are clothed, have shelter, and starvation is almost not heard of. One could expect that in 300-400 years that even the poorest of people would live in luxury by today’s standards, but many would still feel disenfranchised by the standards of that time.


    There was an episode of DS9 that demonstrated the difficulties of a moneyless society.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    The trouble with money is it loses value, no matter how much or how little you use it. However, goods of physical items rarely lose value, especially when we're talking starships and the like, not cars which you generally take to being useful for x ammount of years before being changed for a newer model.

    Remember, the Federation operates more akin to a charity than a company - if you make yourself available for work, and you work, you get fed, washed and clothed.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    this is one of those area that they never really explained.

    I agree, it's one of those things that's never really explained in full. They do mention "Federation credit," but what it is and how it works has never been explored. Probably for the best.
    why do people like dax and riker win latinum at dabo. they can never use it and should not need to have it.

    They can use it to buy things from those that don't accept Federation credits, like the Ferengi. However, playing dabo and similar betting games is probably something of a thrill for those who are into gambling; note that poker is apparently still played in the 24th century (albeit with chips in place of cash).
    how does quark maintain his business when most people are feds on ds9. do they replicate him some credits or do they pay for his power consumption. he always tells them no refunds or he'll add it to their tabs. what tabs, what did they pay him to get a refund?

    I would like to take this opportunity to point out that the majority of DS9's inhabitants are Bajoran, who, at the time of DS9, are not members of the Federation and do indeed had their own form of currency, which apparently can be converted into latnium. Add to that mix the Klingons and Romulans during the Dominion War (who may or may not have their own form of currency, it's never been clear one way or the other), and he's got an even larger customer base. One could also theorize that the Federation has a system for converting Federation credits into whatever currency is needed, much like current exchange rates.
    how does the federation buy supplies off of other races?

    See above answer.
    how do people get clothes and food. do you just walk into a shop and take what you want? fancy going to a sport events or concert? do you just turn up or it is first come first served?

    From what little we've seen of sports in Star Trek, I get the impression that professional sports as we know it died out sometime before the first Enterprise left spacedock. What's left are a series of what we would call "amateur teams" that play just for the heck of it. So yeah, it's very possible that the crowds just walk what passes at stadiums.

    As for other entertainment venues and merchants - yeah, pretty vague there. We do get a mention of "charge it to my account" in "Encounter at Farpoint," but what that means is anyone's guess.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    What we're looking at here is what could be considered a form of universal currency that most every race operates off of in supplement to their own native currency.

    In doing so it allows easy trade and of the like for those races that still use money to further their own modern economies.

    Thats not to say that the federation is in need of paying their officers money for their service. In essence, its like the military................you get free housing, uniforms, food, medical, training......you don't really need money at that point....all of your needs are met.

    Not to say that they dont use money.....big difference. They may still come by it, yet its not used as compensation for their service.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I don't think money itself is whats preventing us from improving our world as a whole. Rather I think its greed, and cultural/religious intolerance. A future without money seems possible, but exactly how it would be done is beyond me.

    Lets not forget that Star Trek is an idealistic view of the future. Gene Roddenberry wanted humanity to seem near perfect. Thats why in TOS and the first season of TNG characters are often spouting about humanities social acheivements.

    Just remember its a story and you need to suspend your disbelief somewhat. Phasors make noise in space and if your outside the ship you can hear the engines. Anyone with a basic understanding in science knows that there's no sound in space.

    Later on in later series writers started breaking the pedastal out from under humans, and rightly so. I don't think we'll be near perfect in only a few hundred years, if ever, but I do hold out hope that we'll stop seeing the differences between us and try to work towards a common goal. Maybe we'll stop being so damn greedy someday too.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    This has already been discussed and explained.

    Earth, and thus the people from Earth, doesn't use money. It's some kind of futuristic utopia.

    The United Federation of Planets does have money. I can link you to quotes from episodes in every series from Enterprise to Voyager in which they clearly say money. But you're all Trekkies and you're all capable of using Google and/or Memory Alpha so I'm not going to bother.

    You have to remember that the UFP isn't a single government. It's a Federal Government. The UFP government doesn't interfere with governments of its various member worlds. So Vulcan and Andoria can have and use money, but Earth does not.

    Remember that episode in which Jake Sisko tells Nog that he 'sold' his book? And then has to explain to him that he didn't get any money? Remember what he says? He says, "I'm human. We don't use money any more." He does not say, "I'm a Federation citizen."

    So some worlds in the Federation use money. Others do not. It's really not as complicated as people are trying to make it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Remember that episode in which Jake Sisko tells Nog that he 'sold' his book? And then has to explain to him that he didn't get any money? Remember what he says? He says, "I'm human. We don't use money any more." He does not say, "I'm a Federation citizen."

    He told Quark, not Nog, and Jake said nothing about humans or the Federation lacking money, outside of "It's a figure of speech" (which Quark immediately mocks). Nog, however, did highlight the idea that humans/the Federation don't use hard currency in an earlier episode, which Jake immediately responds with, "We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity."

    Nog's answer is classic, and one the audience was probably asking too: "What exactly does that mean?"
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Cruis.In wrote: »
    Remember Picard's rhetoric to Alice or whatever her name is from First Contact? In the future humanity has evolved and work to better themselves?

    Well that's all noble and all, but the truth is, even after thousands of years we still need some form of economy, and as the years go by it gets more complex, not less. So that is an unrealistic prediction of evolution.

    It's only gotten more complex because a bureaucracy has emerged by virtue of a free open market capitalism. Banking, book keeping, and investing has made economics more complex, meaning more people need to be involved in maintaining the money. If we stopped handling money and chose to "work to better ourselves," then personal wealth ceases to be a factor and the wealth of the state, a different type of wealth than currency, becomes primary.
    The next thing is, I like how even the Star Trek writers forget their own diversity, 'humanity' was the word Picard used. It goes to show that in the Star Trek world humans really do see themselves as being 'better'.

    Picard is in Starfleet which is the military arm of the Federation, not of Earth.

    The direct quote is:
    "The economics of the future is somewhat different. You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century... The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of Humanity."

    I'm sure this is meant to imply that humanity working towards bettering itself is status quo for members of any type of federation. The members of a federation, the European Union being a better example than the United States in this case, maintain their own laws, social policies, and foreign agendas. Numerous times do we hear of members of the UFP at war or in tension with another entity while the Federation as a whole remains neutral. So, while Picard serves at the mercy of the entire Federation, his actions reflect on and are meant as an example for his species.
    I am sure the other worlds don't have the same views on money and economy as evidenced by the gold pressed latinum which is highly sought after.

    To say the least. The UFP is the only example of a communist society in the Star Trek universe.
    What about that little Andorian Ensign who left his homeworld to send back money for his 12 little hatchlings or whatever?

    I searched a long time for this but couldn't find the ensign of which you speak. If it was the character from Enterprise, then that took place before the Federation was founded.
    The idea that starfleet doesn't pay is ridiculous. There must be some form of Interstellar currency other than latinum. Not everyone lives on Earth.

    Pay for what? Very few colonies lack replicator technology and those that do are agricultural and self-sustaining. Latinum is the premier interstellar currency because it's rare. In TOS Kirk mentioned that you could find diamonds everywhere. Latinum is rare, and rare=value.

    The wealth of the UFP comes from its ability to mine and build ships. It is self-sustaining due to the diversity of its members and has no need for acquiring money. It can replicate most of what it needs and obtains what it can't through trade relationships. There is obviously some sort of market that measures the UFP's wealth, however, since Quark doesn't work for free. It seemed from DS9 that officers stationed away from Federation facilities requested stipends in some form which the owner of a bar or restaurant could exchange for their choice of currency. This is all, of course, supposition based on the limited information I've gleaned from the series on this subject.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Even when working to better ourselves some method to manage resources must be in place. The Federation does not have unlimited resources, this is deomnstrated by its continued search for resources, which would be unnecessary should they be without limit.

    Being that there are limits, even in the Federation, those resources must then be managed. they can either be managed through creative destruction, whereupon the most useful innovations are judged by consumers in a free market, and the producers of these useful innovations are awarded more resources to invest in further innovation, while those innovations that consumers do not desire receive very little resources.

    Or you are dealing with a command economy, where the Federation assigns resources by its own criteria, innovtions not recognized as having potential by the Federation go undeveloped, while the Federations chosen projects flourish.

    Either way, these resources are accounted for, be it in the form of energy credits, or some form of rations, resources are managed, there are limits in place, because the resources though abundant are not without limit.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    They might not use hard currency but that doesn't mean they don't use electronic currency.
    After all, tribbles cost 6-10 credits each and supposedly a lithium miner can buy a planet.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    do you thikn that the money you carry in your pocket is worth anything, i dont think there is a Hard currancy << one back by hard goods gold or silver >> so the evolution to a currancy that is nothing but numbers in a system is easily acheivable. and in 300-400 years who knows maybe theres a automatic accounting system that dose all the checks and balances for the entire quadrant.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard
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