1. Technobabble. We all know Trek suffered from too much technobabble through the years - from Star Trek TNG all the way to ST Enterprise. For Star Trek, weve got one MAJOR technobabble. RED MATTER. WTH.. this red goo which looks like blood is arguably the most powerful and destructive force known to the Star Trek universe. I mean - IT CREATES BLACK HOLES FOR GOODNESS SAKES. Now with that said.. why in Gods name is Spock carrying so much of it when a simple drop of Red Matter creates the black hole necessary to suck in that supernova anyhow?
what do you think?
Anyone got any other things/story they wanna share like the above?
As anyone spotted STO plot hole yet?
When Picard left the Nexus and went back 10 minutes Veridian III, shouldn't there have been two Picards on Veridian III?
Even worse:
Since Picard was so distraught over the death of his Nephew in the fire (mentioned as the start of the Film); why didn't he go back to prevent that tragedy (or hell, at least consider the possibilty)? Had he done that - his nephew would be alive and a few subspace radio messages later Soran and the Duras sisters would be in custody.
Since Picard was so distraught over the death of his Nephew in the fire (mentioned as the start of the Film); why didn't he go back to prevent that tragedy (or hell, at least consider the possibilty)? Had he done that - his nephew would be alive and a few subspace radio messages later Soran and the Duras sisters would be in custody.
Because Starfleet has strict rules about tempering the the timeline
If Picard had to go into the Nexus in order to stop Soran, is he technically still in there, and everything we see concerning him afterwards still technically inside the reality of the energy ribbon? The reason I bring this up is because Guinan mentions that no one leaves there willingly, and that the survivors of the transport that she and Soran were on were forcibly ripped away when the Enterprise-B transported them out, while they were still in the process of being phased into the Nexus. With this in mind, is Picard still in the Nexus, but believes he is not? And if he is, what would he do should he come to the realization that he has been living nothing but a dream since he first went in? On top of this, where would the ribbon, on its original altered path, end up going to next?
This is also brings into question Airwane's question...why weren't there two Picards on Viridian III when he supposedly went back in time to stop Soran?
Since Picard was so distraught over the death of his Nephew in the fire (mentioned as the start of the Film); why didn't he go back to prevent that tragedy (or hell, at least consider the possibilty)? Had he done that - his nephew would be alive and a few subspace radio messages later Soran and the Duras sisters would be in custody.
they needed a reason for Picard to be angsty that wouldn't actually affect anything, that's all. It's a sign of bad writing and it's far from the only one present in Generations, unfortunately.
I only have one answer to the Two Picards: Alternate Reality.
They say that when you make a decision and go one way, theres another you that made the opposite decision. So Picard went back but he went back to an alternate reality that was the same as his.
*shrug* Its one of those plot holes we cant explain cause its Trek. lol
"3. So Nero sees Romulus get destroyed.. he blames Spock so he decides to go after him at the same time Spock is trying to stop the supernova. They both get sucked into the black hole.. and then each appears in different points in time in the past. Youre telling me that Nero was sooo hell bent on making Spock suffer that he sat around for 25 years waiting for him to appear? Youre telling me he figured out exactly where Spock would appear? Nero is a mining guy right? Guess hes pretty bright in science too."
Since Picard was so distraught over the death of his Nephew in the fire (mentioned as the start of the Film); why didn't he go back to prevent that tragedy (or hell, at least consider the possibilty)? Had he done that - his nephew would be alive and a few subspace radio messages later Soran and the Duras sisters would be in custody.
"3. So Nero sees Romulus get destroyed.. he blames Spock so he decides to go after him at the same time Spock is trying to stop the supernova. They both get sucked into the black hole.. and then each appears in different points in time in the past. Youre telling me that Nero was sooo hell bent on making Spock suffer that he sat around for 25 years waiting for him to appear? Youre telling me he figured out exactly where Spock would appear? Nero is a mining guy right? Guess hes pretty bright in science too."
***Not my words***
Well whoever said those words never read Star Trek Countdown or Star Trek Nero it completely explains it lol
"3. So Nero sees Romulus get destroyed.. he blames Spock so he decides to go after him at the same time Spock is trying to stop the supernova. They both get sucked into the black hole.. and then each appears in different points in time in the past. Youre telling me that Nero was sooo hell bent on making Spock suffer that he sat around for 25 years waiting for him to appear? Youre telling me he figured out exactly where Spock would appear? Nero is a mining guy right? Guess hes pretty bright in science too."
***Not my words***
If they had kept the deleted scences where it shows Nero captured by te Klingon Fleet soon after the destruction of the U.S.S. Kelvin - which shows him and his crew held and interrogated for the majority of the 25 years; and when he hears of another 'storm'; he and his crew break out, manage to steal back the Narada (I know this is a plothole in itself - that Nero after 25 years just manages to break out and retake his ship ); and go to the location iof said storm figuring it's Spock coming through...
But, I guess it woul be trading one plothole for another
Was he so hellbent to pwn Spock that he'd wait around for 25 years? Kind of. People have gone insane for much less than their WHOLE WORLD AND FAMILY dying. People who doubt the motivations behind Nero just have no freakin' idea how stupid, crazy and dumb people can get.
I say kind of too because in deleted scenes it explained it. Nero's ship took large amounts of damage from the Kelvin ramming it (and apparently the trip through the black hole too). It was dead in space close to Klingon space. The Klingons captured his ship, him and his crew. They were in a Klingon prison camp for most of that time.
Eventually they escaped and calculated when Spock was due. They possibly did this before capture or during it so they'd know when they had to escape by. And wondering how a MINER could pull that off... well, that's just another stupid thing to wonder. It's Star Trek. Miners could very well be freakin' smart. I mean they have to fly around in large ships, fine TRIBBLE to mine on different planets. Drill into them... etc etc it's an involved process which I'm sure requires large amounts of math and science to do right. I have no doubt they could potentially calculate Spock's arrival. They're not idiots.
I say kind of too because in deleted scenes it explained it. Nero's ship took large amounts of damage from the Kelvin ramming it (and apparently the trip through the black hole too). It was dead in space close to Klingon space. The Klingons captured his ship, him and his crew. They were in a Klingon prison camp for most of that time.
Eventually they escaped and calculated when Spock was due.
The deleted scenes didn't explain it because...they were deleted. If they hadn't been deleted, it might have been explained, and thus less of a problem.
Just because something is deleted from the movie doesnt make it non-canon. Alot of the time the scenes are deleted because of time constraints, or the producers think that the scenes dont add anything to the continuity or somewhat. The only way they would be non-canon is if they were deleted and destroyed. As in, no one ever getting to see them.
Just because something is deleted from the movie doesnt make it non-canon. Alot of the time the scenes are deleted because of time constraints, or the producers think that the scenes dont add anything to the continuity or somewhat. The only way they would be non-canon is if they were deleted and destroyed. As in, no one ever getting to see them.
At the very least, they would be soft-canon.
And as we all know, soft-canon does not count either. Moreover, as is often repeated when it comes to movies that leave stuff out like that one did, you don't get credit for what isn't in your movie.
Plus, even if we were to assume that Nero and crew were stuck in some Klingon camp the whole time, it still doesn't help address how flimsy Nero's motivations and actions seem to be.
You don't get credit for stuff you don't put in the movie because... now try to follow this, because it's a pretty big leap... you didn't put it in the movie. I shouldn't have to wait months and watch all your deleted scenes to say, Oh, this finally makes sense, or pore through some non-canon books to say, Oh, so this isn't a pile of nonsensical horse**** afterall.
Complaining about it is pure nitpicking at it's finest.
It's not actually a real plot hole. "A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot."
1) It's not inconsistent.
2) The gap isn't important and can be explained any number of ways even if you don't like the official way. If you go purely by the movie then he waited for 25 years. He was that hellbent on TRIBBLE with Spock. So what? That's not a plot hole. His world was destroyed and family killed. People have gone more insane for much much less. There's ZERO plot hole here no matter how you look at it unless you want to nitpick the movie pointlessly.
3) It doesn't go against the flow or logic.
4) Its not a blatant omission of relevant information because even if you're told exactly WHY he waited for 25 years (whether it be because he's just THAT angry and patient or because he was captured by Klingons) it's STILL not relevant, doesn't advance the plot, isn't important to the plot and just in the end isn't important to the plot at all. Heck, that's why they took it out. The thing felt forced and even as a real explanation added absolutely nothing to the plot.
There's ZERO plot holes. It's a great movie. It's not perfect but is the most well received Star Trek movie ever. It's made the most. Obviously the VAST MAJORITY of people don't agree that leaving out why he waiting for 25 years was important.
Complaining about it is pure nitpicking at it's finest.
It's not actually a real plot hole. "A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot."
2) The gap isn't important and can be explained any number of ways even if you don't like the official way. If you go purely by the movie then he waited for 25 years. He was that hellbent on TRIBBLE with Spock. So what? That's not a plot hole. His world was destroyed and family killed. People have gone more insane for much much less. There's ZERO plot hole here no matter how you look at it unless you want to nitpick the movie pointlessly.
3) It doesn't go against the flow or logic.
It doesn't fit any definition of a plot hole.
It is important because Nero disappears despite having an uber-ship and having been seen by the Federation ship he destroyed. For 25 years nobody sees this ship again despite it apparently being in a part of space in or around the Federation that he's apparently been checking periodically for Spock.
And him not doing anything for 25 years goes completely against the flow of ALL logic. Logic would dictate going right to Romulus to warn them of the impending doom. Logic would have his crew overthrow him after a few years of just sitting around waiting for Spock to show up rather than either taking their revenge on Federation planets, Vulcan or otherwise, or going back to Romulus or trying to find a way back to the future or any number of other, less insane things to do.
Of course, logic would mean he would want revenge on the idiots in the Romulan government who ignored his warnings in the future rather than the one guy who actually attempted to help him out...
But if you don't want to call it a plot hole, so be it. We can simply call it bad writing.
As far as its popularity, whopdeedoo. Transformers II's box office returns made that movie's box office returns look like it was the profit from a little girl's lemonade stand, but nobody's going to argue Transformers II is a good movie or well written.
LotD are you really going to argue that it's not logical for a Romulan to want revenge? You know they are all about passion(good and bad) with a bit of paranoia right?
Romulans are the darker side of what a Vulcan could be if they didn't work for decades to keep their emotions in check. Logic has about as much place in a typical Romulans life as it does in a typical humans life. That's not to say logic has no place it's just not a near religious following like it is for Vulcans.
As to the aspect of why he waited around for 25 years. . . ignoring the bit about the Klingon prison camp that didn't make into the film. . . He needed to get Spock's ship to get the Red Matter to go about taking that revenge. 200 years advanced or not his ship would only be able to do so much before a more united fleet would have been pulled together that would have been able to take him out.
As to why he didn't go warn the Romulans I would imagine he knew exactly what would happen if he showed up at his home planet. . . The Empire would have taken his ship from him and began to break it down in order to duplicate the advanced technology. He would never have been able to take his personal revenge.
Aside from that he was a miner and was very likely looked down upon. . . he may not have even cared if Romulus had been destroyed if his family hadn't been there. Life tends to suck in the Romulan Empire unless you're in the Military or Government.
LotD are you really going to argue that it's not logical for a Romulan to want revenge? You know they are all about passion(good and bad) with a bit of paranoia right?
It's perfectly logical to want revenge. The problem is that the Romulans in question have suddenly found themselves in the past, which changes everything. The logical reaction is for them to rejoice at having the chance to stop the looming catastrophe and save everyone they thought they lost. I would expect them to forget all about Spock as they proceed to do everything they can to change history so the destruction of Romulus doesn't occur. The conflict should be that Spock appears and doesn't want history changed.
Moreover, why do they want revenge against Spock, the one person who tried to help them? Especially to the point of wanting to make Spock watch the destruction of Vulcan, and then proceed to go on a genocidal rampage against every other Federation planet. And for the kind of intense hatred required for that sort of thing to last 25 years of just sitting there.
As to the aspect of why he waited around for 25 years. . . ignoring the bit about the Klingon prison camp that didn't make into the film. . . He needed to get Spock's ship to get the Red Matter to go about taking that revenge. 200 years advanced or not his ship would only be able to do so much before a more united fleet would have been pulled together that would have been able to take him out.
How do you figure that? He destroyed an entire Federation fleet in a matter of minutes and was thoroughly stomping their newest and most advanced starship when it showed up late. Considering the original Enterprise supposedly had the firepower to destroy a planet by itself, should not Nero's have more than what was required?
He's even got a drill on his ship capable of drilling all the way to a planet's core. Who needs red matter at that point?
Further, if he goes to Romulus, he can not only stop the supernova but he can give them the future tech and then he has his own armada of super-ships.
As to why he didn't go warn the Romulans I would imagine he knew exactly what would happen if he showed up at his home planet. . . The Empire would have taken his ship from him and began to break it down in order to duplicate the advanced technology. He would never have been able to take his personal revenge.
Aside from that he was a miner and was very likely looked down upon. . . he may not have even cared if Romulus had been destroyed if his family hadn't been there. Life tends to suck in the Romulan Empire unless you're in the Military or Government.
How are they going to do anything but bow down before his superior might? He's got a ship capable of destroying entire fleets. If they refuse, he can simply slaughter the leadership and take over. It worked for Shinzon, and he wasn't even a Romulan.
I'm wondering if the guy who talked about all the Star Trek plot holes has ever done any research on supplamental ST lore? Let's learn a lesson from EVE on this one: Just because someone happens to be flying a mining barge, doesn't mean they don't know how to kick your sorry little ***. (Have had this happen a few times to me. I really, REALLY hate drones.) Also, the Vulcans may have had a fleet in ST: Enterprise, but it was probably either disolved when the Federation had a strong, working navy, or were just elsewhere. Or were part of the debris field. I think I saw a ring from a D'Kyr class in in debris feild scene, but I'm not sure. Also, as long as the Kelvin had engines, it could've rammed the Nerada. Even in the debris field above Vulcan, many of the ships still had mostly intact hulls, certainly enough mass to do damage to a ship, even the Nerada, especially if Nerada's sheilds were down.
Also, the Nerada used BORG tech, which would explain how it was easily able to take out so many ships. They could have been using Borg jamming tech. Also... How do you even WORRY about three guys shooting towards a planet from low orbit? (Unless they're ODSTs, with ACTUAL GUNS) ((Pardon me, I'm just a really big fan of Halo, and I use that as my primary future tech reference. It just boggles my mind how we could've gone from Phasers to Lead in a little over a hundred years.))
Now, the plot hole I want explained: In the only DS9 episode I've ever watched, Trials and Tribbleations, the main thing the Defiant crew want to do in the end is to disaible a tricobalt bomb hidden in a tribble before it explodes. They found it in the middle of a tribble pile near a far corner of the quadrotridicali storage bin. My question is, how could have it killed anyone if it was that far away? My guess is that a small tricobalt device holds nowhere near the power of a torp, so explain why a small bomb would have more power than, say, conventional explosives. Especially if the Quantum Bombs we have in the game don't have a wide area of effect either. Nor do they do that much damage, actually.
Yes, a brilliant refutation on your part. Totally destroys anything I said. :rolleyes:
Actually, rather than have to discuss this movie again, I direct everyone to this mega review that addresses pretty much every criticism I have with the movie and some I hadn't even thought of until I read it.
Comments
Even worse:
Since Picard was so distraught over the death of his Nephew in the fire (mentioned as the start of the Film); why didn't he go back to prevent that tragedy (or hell, at least consider the possibilty)? Had he done that - his nephew would be alive and a few subspace radio messages later Soran and the Duras sisters would be in custody.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1chtJQFQNs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55NwNrkzz4s&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42Q-pFlzung&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy_-TklmyYE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1-B8naP6TU&feature=related
Because Starfleet has strict rules about tempering the the timeline
Either we discuss them or the above statement was a lie. I say we don't discuss them.
/Bacon Bomb
This is also brings into question Airwane's question...why weren't there two Picards on Viridian III when he supposedly went back in time to stop Soran?
They say that when you make a decision and go one way, theres another you that made the opposite decision. So Picard went back but he went back to an alternate reality that was the same as his.
*shrug* Its one of those plot holes we cant explain cause its Trek. lol
***Not my words***
LOL!!!!
Well whoever said those words never read Star Trek Countdown or Star Trek Nero it completely explains it lol
If they had kept the deleted scences where it shows Nero captured by te Klingon Fleet soon after the destruction of the U.S.S. Kelvin - which shows him and his crew held and interrogated for the majority of the 25 years; and when he hears of another 'storm'; he and his crew break out, manage to steal back the Narada (I know this is a plothole in itself - that Nero after 25 years just manages to break out and retake his ship
But, I guess it woul be trading one plothole for another
Was he so hellbent to pwn Spock that he'd wait around for 25 years? Kind of. People have gone insane for much less than their WHOLE WORLD AND FAMILY dying. People who doubt the motivations behind Nero just have no freakin' idea how stupid, crazy and dumb people can get.
I say kind of too because in deleted scenes it explained it. Nero's ship took large amounts of damage from the Kelvin ramming it (and apparently the trip through the black hole too). It was dead in space close to Klingon space. The Klingons captured his ship, him and his crew. They were in a Klingon prison camp for most of that time.
Eventually they escaped and calculated when Spock was due. They possibly did this before capture or during it so they'd know when they had to escape by. And wondering how a MINER could pull that off... well, that's just another stupid thing to wonder. It's Star Trek. Miners could very well be freakin' smart. I mean they have to fly around in large ships, fine TRIBBLE to mine on different planets. Drill into them... etc etc it's an involved process which I'm sure requires large amounts of math and science to do right. I have no doubt they could potentially calculate Spock's arrival. They're not idiots.
There is absolutely NO plot hole here.
The deleted scenes didn't explain it because...they were deleted. If they hadn't been deleted, it might have been explained, and thus less of a problem.
At the very least, they would be soft-canon.
As they were not in the movie, they are only a potential explanation that never materialized because...they were deleted.
The comic book is also not in the movie.
As far as the movie is concerned, Nero sat in his ship for 25 years waiting patiently for Spock to show up.
And as we all know, soft-canon does not count either. Moreover, as is often repeated when it comes to movies that leave stuff out like that one did, you don't get credit for what isn't in your movie.
Plus, even if we were to assume that Nero and crew were stuck in some Klingon camp the whole time, it still doesn't help address how flimsy Nero's motivations and actions seem to be.
The comics were made to show backstories that the movie couldn't adress, they're considered canon lol.
Hell, the new weekly series is based off of Countdown even :rolleyes:
Was the "Official" comic in the movie? Was it handed out at the theater as you went into the movie? Or after you came out of the movie?
As it was once wisely put:
It's not actually a real plot hole. "A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot."
1) It's not inconsistent.
2) The gap isn't important and can be explained any number of ways even if you don't like the official way. If you go purely by the movie then he waited for 25 years. He was that hellbent on TRIBBLE with Spock. So what? That's not a plot hole. His world was destroyed and family killed. People have gone more insane for much much less. There's ZERO plot hole here no matter how you look at it unless you want to nitpick the movie pointlessly.
3) It doesn't go against the flow or logic.
4) Its not a blatant omission of relevant information because even if you're told exactly WHY he waited for 25 years (whether it be because he's just THAT angry and patient or because he was captured by Klingons) it's STILL not relevant, doesn't advance the plot, isn't important to the plot and just in the end isn't important to the plot at all. Heck, that's why they took it out. The thing felt forced and even as a real explanation added absolutely nothing to the plot.
There's ZERO plot holes. It's a great movie. It's not perfect but is the most well received Star Trek movie ever. It's made the most. Obviously the VAST MAJORITY of people don't agree that leaving out why he waiting for 25 years was important.
It doesn't fit any definition of a plot hole.
It is important because Nero disappears despite having an uber-ship and having been seen by the Federation ship he destroyed. For 25 years nobody sees this ship again despite it apparently being in a part of space in or around the Federation that he's apparently been checking periodically for Spock.
And him not doing anything for 25 years goes completely against the flow of ALL logic. Logic would dictate going right to Romulus to warn them of the impending doom. Logic would have his crew overthrow him after a few years of just sitting around waiting for Spock to show up rather than either taking their revenge on Federation planets, Vulcan or otherwise, or going back to Romulus or trying to find a way back to the future or any number of other, less insane things to do.
Of course, logic would mean he would want revenge on the idiots in the Romulan government who ignored his warnings in the future rather than the one guy who actually attempted to help him out...
But if you don't want to call it a plot hole, so be it. We can simply call it bad writing.
As far as its popularity, whopdeedoo. Transformers II's box office returns made that movie's box office returns look like it was the profit from a little girl's lemonade stand, but nobody's going to argue Transformers II is a good movie or well written.
Romulans are the darker side of what a Vulcan could be if they didn't work for decades to keep their emotions in check. Logic has about as much place in a typical Romulans life as it does in a typical humans life. That's not to say logic has no place it's just not a near religious following like it is for Vulcans.
As to the aspect of why he waited around for 25 years. . . ignoring the bit about the Klingon prison camp that didn't make into the film. . . He needed to get Spock's ship to get the Red Matter to go about taking that revenge. 200 years advanced or not his ship would only be able to do so much before a more united fleet would have been pulled together that would have been able to take him out.
As to why he didn't go warn the Romulans I would imagine he knew exactly what would happen if he showed up at his home planet. . . The Empire would have taken his ship from him and began to break it down in order to duplicate the advanced technology. He would never have been able to take his personal revenge.
Aside from that he was a miner and was very likely looked down upon. . . he may not have even cared if Romulus had been destroyed if his family hadn't been there. Life tends to suck in the Romulan Empire unless you're in the Military or Government.
It's perfectly logical to want revenge. The problem is that the Romulans in question have suddenly found themselves in the past, which changes everything. The logical reaction is for them to rejoice at having the chance to stop the looming catastrophe and save everyone they thought they lost. I would expect them to forget all about Spock as they proceed to do everything they can to change history so the destruction of Romulus doesn't occur. The conflict should be that Spock appears and doesn't want history changed.
Moreover, why do they want revenge against Spock, the one person who tried to help them? Especially to the point of wanting to make Spock watch the destruction of Vulcan, and then proceed to go on a genocidal rampage against every other Federation planet. And for the kind of intense hatred required for that sort of thing to last 25 years of just sitting there.
How do you figure that? He destroyed an entire Federation fleet in a matter of minutes and was thoroughly stomping their newest and most advanced starship when it showed up late. Considering the original Enterprise supposedly had the firepower to destroy a planet by itself, should not Nero's have more than what was required?
He's even got a drill on his ship capable of drilling all the way to a planet's core. Who needs red matter at that point?
Further, if he goes to Romulus, he can not only stop the supernova but he can give them the future tech and then he has his own armada of super-ships.
How are they going to do anything but bow down before his superior might? He's got a ship capable of destroying entire fleets. If they refuse, he can simply slaughter the leadership and take over. It worked for Shinzon, and he wasn't even a Romulan.
Also, the Nerada used BORG tech, which would explain how it was easily able to take out so many ships. They could have been using Borg jamming tech. Also... How do you even WORRY about three guys shooting towards a planet from low orbit? (Unless they're ODSTs, with ACTUAL GUNS) ((Pardon me, I'm just a really big fan of Halo, and I use that as my primary future tech reference. It just boggles my mind how we could've gone from Phasers to Lead in a little over a hundred years.))
Now, the plot hole I want explained: In the only DS9 episode I've ever watched, Trials and Tribbleations, the main thing the Defiant crew want to do in the end is to disaible a tricobalt bomb hidden in a tribble before it explodes. They found it in the middle of a tribble pile near a far corner of the quadrotridicali storage bin. My question is, how could have it killed anyone if it was that far away? My guess is that a small tricobalt device holds nowhere near the power of a torp, so explain why a small bomb would have more power than, say, conventional explosives. Especially if the Quantum Bombs we have in the game don't have a wide area of effect either. Nor do they do that much damage, actually.
(Sorry for the double post)
So what does that make The Wrath of Kahn? Chopped Gagh?
The second most well received Star Trek movie ever. With Star Trek IV the second most well received when it comes to money.
P.S. LotD really needs to check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3y3QoFnqZc
Yes, a brilliant refutation on your part. Totally destroys anything I said. :rolleyes:
Actually, rather than have to discuss this movie again, I direct everyone to this mega review that addresses pretty much every criticism I have with the movie and some I hadn't even thought of until I read it.