Sorry but Star Trek RPG is not canon or anything even close. Live with it. The Federation did not/could not have caught up with the borg and be only a 'tech' level or two behind species that have been in space for milenia or the Q who can do literally anything, they especially could not have almost caught up in only 30 years that's patently stupid. Star Trek RPG sounds ridiculous to me, but then as it isn't canon I don't have to worry about it do I?
In the mean time, back in the universe that we all know and love - the federation in STO is ridiculously OP compared to the Borg. 30 years have passed not 300.
A couple things to add to this particular conversation.
First off, Drone. If One is any indicator, then the Borg can still get much, much scarier.
And we have no idea where the Mobile Emitter is as far as technology goes.
Yes, it's from the 29th Century, but how do we know it's the pinnacle of their technology? Do we really think that B'Lanna's Hydro-spanner is the be-all-end-all of Voyagers gear? Or a Hand Phaser? Seems to me that the Bio-neural Gel Packs are more advanced.
For all we know, the Mobile Emitter technology and materials were developed in the late 25th century, and it's design and materials merely made more efficient as time goes on.
Imagine the Borg with the technology of the 29th century, or of the 31st we saw in Enterprise. The Borg have not hit a plateau of technological development, and they likely won't, not for a long time yet.
The Borg can be, and should be, far more terrifying.
Sorry but Star Trek RPG is not canon or anything even close. Live with it. The Federation did not/could not have caught up with the borg and be only a 'tech' level or two behind species that have been in space for milenia or the Q who can do literally anything, they especially could not have almost caught up in only 30 years that's patently stupid. Star Trek RPG sounds ridiculous to me, but then as it isn't canon I don't have to worry about it do I?
Neither is STO, and the Federation was always close on the heels of the Borg. Just look at Data. He's in every way superior to a Borg drone. If we could mass produce Soong-type androids the Borg would be done for.
And where does this tech ranking system put all the species that sit between the Federation and the Borg? All those many species from series' that are considerbaly more powerful than the federation but not as powerful as the borg?
They sit on the edges of that scale. The Federation was in TNG almost at the end of 8, Data is already something that would be classified as 9, but those things were rare. Similarly there can be civilization on 9 that are not as far as the Borg.
And, did the rest of the universe just sit still in terms of growth, evolution and tech while the feds and klinks advanced beyond all recognition?
No, in fact the Romulans invented the almost unsoloable Scimitar warbird, mean Thalaron mines etc. Give something like that to a player character instead of a stupid AI and he will wreak havoc even more than with a Borg cube. (And I'm pretty sure that a Borg cube in the hands of a player would be devastating. If we assume it would get the same amount of powers like a normal T5 ship while retaining it's special Borg abilities.
In the mean time, back in the universe that we all know and love - the federation in STO is ridiculously OP compared to the Borg. 30 years have passed not 300.
30 years in that the Federation made weapon-tech progress for 60, helped by stolen Borg-tech, a de-assimilated Borg all while the Borg seemingly lay beaten in a ditch and tried to rebuilt some kind of power base.
A couple things to add to this particular conversation.
First off, Drone. If One is any indicator, then the Borg can still get much, much scarier.
And we have no idea where the Mobile Emitter is as far as technology goes.
Yes, it's from the 29th Century, but how do we know it's the pinnacle of their technology? Do we really think that B'Lanna's Hydro-spanner is the be-all-end-all of Voyagers gear? Or a Hand Phaser? Seems to me that the Bio-neural Gel Packs are more advanced.
[...]
The Borg can be, and should be, far more terrifying.
You overlook a tiny problem. The Borg have assimilated species who could have developed that kind of technology. Now they can't because they are gone and so the Borg can't assimilate it. The Borg need to assimilate someone again who has something that would make them scarier. But they have already everything they can take. The remaining races either have nothing of interest or are too strong or smart to be simply assimilated. Federation? Yeah, they got a bit of us, but in the end they were always beaten. Species 8472? A desaster. Iconians? Heck those see the Borg as toy soldiers.
Neither is STO, and the Federation was always close on the heels of the Borg. Just look at Data. He's in every way superior to a Borg drone. If we could mass produce Soong-type androids the Borg would be done for.
They sit on the edges of that scale. The Federation was in TNG almost at the end of 8, Data is already something that would be classified as 9, but those things were rare. Similarly there can be civilization on 9 that are not as far as the Borg.
No, in fact the Romulans invented the almost unsoloable Scimitar warbird, mean Thalaron mines etc. Give something like that to a player character instead of a stupid AI and he will wreak havoc even more than with a Borg cube. (And I'm pretty sure that a Borg cube in the hands of a player would be devastating. If we assume it would get the same amount of powers like a normal T5 ship while retaining it's special Borg abilities.
30 years in that the Federation made weapon-tech progress for 60, helped by stolen Borg-tech, a de-assimilated Borg all while the Borg seemingly lay beaten in a ditch and tried to rebuilt some kind of power base.
You overlook a tiny problem. The Borg have assimilated species who could have developed that kind of technology. Now they can't because they are gone and so the Borg can't assimilate it. The Borg need to assimilate someone again who has something that would make them scarier. But they have already everything they can take. The remaining races either have nothing of interest or are too strong or smart to be simply assimilated. Federation? Yeah, they got a bit of us, but in the end they were always beaten. Species 8472? A desaster. Iconians? Heck those see the Borg as toy soldiers.
Mate, all this stuff is your opinion, and you are welcome to it, but none of it amounts to anything other than your own 'mind-plot'. All evidence is to the contrary that the feds could have caught the borg in 30 years who are in turn only 1 tech lvl down from the Q who are basically God and who apparently found nothing else in the galaxy to assimilate in 30 years to advance themselves.
Additionally there are a new series of books that offer a new evolution of the Borg and they are considerably more canon than your Star Trek RPG.
The thread was aboput a different vision of the Borg than your own, so start your own 'Borg are rubbish' thread and post your stories there perhaps?
You overlook a tiny problem. The Borg have assimilated species who could have developed that kind of technology. Now they can't because they are gone and so the Borg can't assimilate it. The Borg need to assimilate someone again who has something that would make them scarier. But they have already everything they can take. The remaining races either have nothing of interest or are too strong or smart to be simply assimilated. Federation? Yeah, they got a bit of us, but in the end they were always beaten. Species 8472? A disaster. Iconians? Heck those see the Borg as toy soldiers.
Who said? You're only looking at what the Borg have access to as far as Alpha Quadrant, Beta Quadrant, and Fluidic Space species.
The Borg have been known to go into other dimensions, distant Galaxies, and manipulate the time line.
Who is to say what species the Borg have encountered in the Gamma Quadrant? Or in distant Galaxies & Alternate Dimensions?
The Borg could have assimilated some species or technological organism from a distant Galaxy, who's to know?
And even if we take their current power level as indicative that they haven't, we have to take into account that the Borg have been, and are, present in parts of Space we have no information on. A Borg re-vamp would just have to include an update to the Path to 2409, a continuance into 2410 (which is rightly deserved by the Featured Episodes and the continual advancement of the KDF into the Eta Eridani and Psi Velorum Sector Blocks).
Just include a paragraph on an NPC ship encountering a Borg probe that was much more powerful than previous examples, still winning the day, and Liberating a drone in the process that updates them about the successful assimilation of ~Species blah-blah-blah-blah from Galactic Cluster Blah-Blah~ and the improved technology the Borg attained thereby.
Mate, all this stuff is your opinion, and you are welcome to it, but none of it amounts to anything other than your own 'mind-plot'. All evidence is to the contrary that the feds could have caught the borg in 30 years who are in turn only 1 tech lvl down from the Q who are basically God and who apparently found nothing else in the galaxy to assimilate in 30 years to advance themselves.
What evidence? I'm basing what I say exactly on the same evidence as you, hard canon and soft canon.
Additionally there are a new series of books that offer a new evolution of the Borg and they are considerably more canon than your Star Trek RPG.
ROFL. Sorry, this isn't Star Wars! This is Star Trek, there are only two types of canon, hard canon and soft canon. Hard canon is everything that was seen on screen, soft canon is all the other licensed products. Sorry, your books mean exactly as much as the info from the RPG.
The thread was aboput a different vision of the Borg than your own, so start your own 'Borg are rubbish' thread and post your stories there perhaps?
This thread is about changing the Borg that are in the game at the moment. I'm against this and so I'm posting here. This is a discussion board. If you don't want to use it for that start a blog.
Who said? You're only looking at what the Borg have access to as far as Alpha Quadrant, Beta Quadrant, and Fluidic Space species.
The Borg have been known to go into other dimensions, distant Galaxies, and manipulate the time line.
Woahwoahwoah, where does it say that, except the attempted manipulation of the timeline that would have allowed the Borg to assimilate humanity before they developed something that would have been worth assimilating?
Otherwise I like the idea of Borg turning up who assimilated something new and dangerous. I just don't want our actual Borg retconned to uber-beings they definitely aren't anymore.
Woahwoahwoah, where does it say that, except the attempted manipulation of the timeline that would have allowed the Borg to assimilate humanity before they developed something that would have been worth assimilating?
Otherwise I like the idea of Borg turning up who assimilated something new and dangerous. I just don't want our actual Borg retconned to uber-beings they definitely aren't anymore.
Oh, I'm not arguing for a retcon either, just a perfectly logical and canon-safe "Oh TRIBBLE they've adapted anew or assimilated something anew and are now uber-dangerous again!"
As to where and when it was established that the Borg go to other Galaxies and Dimensions...
Well, Species 8472 (Undine) are from a different dimension the Borg invaded in search of new species to assimilate, that show inter-dimensional exploration and attempted assimilation.
Seven of Nine noted in the Episode "The Gift" that the Borg had been to, and assimilated, a species in Galactic Cluster 3. In "The Haunting of Deck Twelve" Seven mentioned that the Borg had been to Galactic Cluster 8 and assimilated a species there.
Well, Species 8472 (Undine) are from a different dimension the Borg invaded in search of new species to assimilate, that show inter-dimensional exploration and attempted assimilation.
Okay, granted. Kind of scary what they could do if they learned to travel to parallel universes.
Seven of Nine noted in the Episode "The Gift" that the Borg had been to, and assimilated, a species in Galactic Cluster 3. In "The Haunting of Deck Twelve" Seven mentioned that the Borg had been to Galactic Cluster 8 and assimilated a species there.
If I look at the info about intergalactic travel in Star Trek and the numbers of the species they assimilated there I would assume that they divided the Milky Way into "Galactic Clusters" just like the Federation divided it into quadrants.
If I look at the info about intergalactic travel in Star Trek and the numbers of the species they assimilated there I would assume that they divided the Milky Way into "Galactic Clusters" just like the Federation divided it into quadrants.
Read the entry on Galactic Cluster 3, nothing like that exists in this Galaxy.
Also, Galactic Cluster is a legitimate Cosmological term:
It seems I'm not far off in predicting what most players want the Borg to be.
I'd certainly love to see something along these lines; at the very least give all Borg (both space and Ground) the reactive shielding power from the Aegis Set. ("Oh crud they assimilated a research vessel equipped with the new Aegis set"; Voila...)
I'd certainly love to see something along these lines; at the very least give all Borg (both space and Ground) the reactive shielding power from the Aegis Set. ("Oh crud they assimilated a research vessel equipped with the new Aegis set"; Voila...)
This.
The Borg's drop in power from TNG to Voy was both precipitous and nonsensical. No amount of Federation know-how can explain Voyager's repeated encounters (and defeats) of the collective over the years. Only poor writing could explain that. Sadly, that is canon now. Cryptic seems to have continued that trend, though whether they are willing participants or are towing CBS's line is up for debate.
In STO, the Borg are pasty cyber-medicated emo's. I'm surprised they don't sparkle in sunlight. That really needs to change. I mean, they don't even try to assimilate my ship when I fly through Gamma Orionis (low self-esteem? Check.). A new story arc where the Borg start becoming more and more dangerous would be a welcome change. We're sent to find out why, and we discover that the Borg found a Preserver data-cache, or Iconian relics, or Chuck Norris' medicine cabinet. And we find clues to another location where we have to stop the Borg from getting more data / technology / Norris meds.
Or maybe, the Borg decide to use all the knowledge they've gained through assimilation and put it to good use. All the species they've assimilated know how to research, so the Borg know that too. Maybe this whole time they've been in "upgrade" mode, sending older, weaker units to the front while they research and upgrade others.
Or maybe they should assimilate a transport full of Betazoid counselors so they can get the help they need.
The Borg's drop in power from TNG to Voy was both precipitous and nonsensical. No amount of Federation know-how can explain Voyager's repeated encounters (and defeats) of the collective over the years. Only poor writing could explain that. Sadly, that is canon now. Cryptic seems to have continued that trend, though whether they are willing participants or are towing CBS's line is up for debate.
I don't think it was poor writing so much as desperate writing.
Before the first episode of Voyager ever aired, we knew several things about the Borg:
They originated in the Delta Quadrant (from Q Who).
Their territory is much larger than the average civilization (from Guinan).
They're relentless (from all TNG encounters).
So, a Star Trek show based on the premise of getting home from the Delta Quadrant would have to deal with them sooner or later. And any cheap "skip around their space without being detected" would feel just as cheap as it is. At the same time, having a crew we've gotten to know over three seasons get assimilated by the first passing Cube was not acceptable.
So, the writers had to figure out a way to get Voyager through Borg space, encountering Borg, yet without being assimilated.
Their answer was twofold, give the Borg something bigger to worry about, and stealthily nerf the Borg to make it somewhat believable at the time.
8472 provided the first half, and cutting down on the adaptation speed and creativity (but not the haughty attitude) of the Collective accomplished the second.
If the Borg during Voyager were as creative and adaptive as the Borg during TNG, the first second Janeway threatened to erase the Doctor to eliminate the Nanite data, the Borg would have beamed Voyagers main computer off the ship and extracted the information at the same time they beamed hundreds of drones aboard Voyager to assimilate the crew and the rest of the ship.
Betazoid Counselors never helped anyone, they´re fluff.
I was thinking about how the Borg could be a lot more "borgy". Let them "steal" your abilities in space and on the ground. A Borg Cube hitting you with Beam Overload III could be fun.
Betazoid Counselors never helped anyone, they´re fluff.
I was thinking about how the Borg could be a lot more "borgy". Let them "steal" your abilities in space and on the ground. A Borg Cube hitting you with Beam Overload III could be fun.
Betazoid Counselors never helped anyone, they´re fluff.
I was thinking about how the Borg could be a lot more "borgy". Let them "steal" your abilities in space and on the ground. A Borg Cube hitting you with Beam Overload III could be fun.
This is nice and there is gaming precident for this sort of thing. Having the borg hit you with whatever you just hit them with would make you think twice about constantly popping these buffs and debuffs that seem to have taken over Star Trek in STO format.
Would you pop RSP if you knew the Borg might then do the same just as you preppped for your Alpha? Would you hit torpedo high yield 3 knowing it might come straight back and one shot you with the borg having already stripped your shields? This woudl require some thought about how to take down a borg cube.
Right now it requires no thought for me at all, I simply approach and stay on a single shield facing in my escort, pop all buffs and 'fire everything' - the borg goes pop in about ten seconds.
Thinking about it a bit more I'd also give Borg vessels the equivalent of the full Borg set (Hull regen proc, shield regen proc and energy draining tractor beam), add on the reactive shielding and you have a decent fight on your hands... Then they just have to get rid if the space zombie look...
So in summary:
More variety of Borg vessels (Diamonds etc plus partially assimilated faction ships) with cubes and tactical cubes left for STFs and fleet actions respectively.
Some form of reactive shielding tech
Improved hull/shield regen
Holding beam/energy drain special.
Classic Borg look...
Thinking about it a bit more I'd also give Borg vessels the equivalent of the full Borg set (Hull regen proc, shield regen proc and energy draining tractor beam), add on the reactive shielding and you have a decent fight on your hands... Then they just have to get rid if the space zombie look...
So in summary:
More variety of Borg vessels (Diamonds etc plus partially assimilated faction ships) with cubes and tactical cubes left for STFs and fleet actions respectively.
Some form of reactive shielding tech
Improved hull/shield regen
Holding beam/energy drain special.
Classic Borg look...
Actually, I don't think the Borg Diamond (Queens ship) should be in the game, except as maybe as the final boss of an STF.
There should be three varieties of Borg Cubes.
Patrol Cubes, the "normal" Cubes we see all over the place in DSEs.
Tactical Cubes.
What I think of as the "Assimilation Cubes", a huge Cube, much larger (at least 1.5X to 2X the size of the current Cubes) that requires a Fleet Action.
So it would be:
Partially Assimilated ships - Basic Frigates
Probes - Science Ships
Spheres - Escorts
Patrol Cubes - Cruisers
Tactical Cubes - Battle Ships
Assimilation Cubes - Fleet Action Big-Baddy
Diamond - STF End Boss (Maybe)
I don't particularly like the idea of the Borg "stealing" the abilities you yourself use, that doesn't fit with the canon to my mind, and it feels cheap IMHO.
I would prefer that the Borg adapt their defenses based on what we do, and adapt their weaponry based on our defenses.
For defense, I would like them to use the scaling adaptation I've already listed, it just "feels right" to me.
For offense, I would like the Borg to adapt to us. For example, I use a T5 Cruiser, I have 4 Engineering Consoles, and I plug two Tetraburnium Consoles in there, I have pretty good resistances to Plasma, Tetryon, Polaron, and Antiproton damage, so I want the Borg to start using Phasers and Disruptors, which I probably have very little resistance to. That seems closer to canon to me, the Borg adapting both their defense and offense.
Actually, I don't think the Borg Diamond (Queens ship) should be in the game, except as maybe as the final boss of an STF.
There should be three varieties of Borg Cubes.
Patrol Cubes, the "normal" Cubes we see all over the place in DSEs.
Tactical Cubes.
What I think of as the "Assimilation Cubes", a huge Cube, much larger (at least 1.5X to 2X the size of the current Cubes) that requires a Fleet Action.
So it would be:
Partially Assimilated ships - Basic Frigates
Probes - Science Ships
Spheres - Escorts
Patrol Cubes - Cruisers
Tactical Cubes - Battle Ships
Assimilation Cubes - Fleet Action Big-Baddy
Diamond - STF End Boss (Maybe)
I don't particularly like the idea of the Borg "stealing" the abilities you yourself use, that doesn't fit with the canon to my mind, and it feels cheap IMHO.
I would prefer that the Borg adapt their defenses based on what we do, and adapt their weaponry based on our defenses.
For defense, I would like them to use the scaling adaptation I've already listed, it just "feels right" to me.
For offense, I would like the Borg to adapt to us. For example, I use a T5 Cruiser, I have 4 Engineering Consoles, and I plug two Tetraburnium Consoles in there, I have pretty good resistances to Plasma, Tetryon, Polaron, and Antiproton damage, so I want the Borg to start using Phasers and Disruptors, which I probably have very little resistance to. That seems closer to canon to me, the Borg adapting both their defense and offense.
Much closer to canon, yes, but also infiniatley harder to programme and we have to be realistic unfortunately - which is why I liked the quasi adaptation by assimilating your tech and using back against you for Borg offense. This would be easier to programme as you would just equip all borg with all tech and given them a random % chance of triggering say beam overload 3 when you activate it.
Can't argue with your Borg defense suggestion.
I like your Borg ship ideas, their classes and respective roles
Thinking about it a bit more I'd also give Borg vessels the equivalent of the full Borg set (Hull regen proc, shield regen proc and energy draining tractor beam), add on the reactive shielding and you have a decent fight on your hands... Then they just have to get rid if the space zombie look...
So in summary:
More variety of Borg vessels (Diamonds etc plus partially assimilated faction ships) with cubes and tactical cubes left for STFs and fleet actions respectively.
Some form of reactive shielding tech
Improved hull/shield regen
Holding beam/energy drain special.
Classic Borg look...
It is a bit nuts that the Borg themselves do not use Borg technology!
I'm not even sure the Borg should have shields, should they? Shouldn't they just have massive hull regen capability? This would require players to adapt their style to the borg, emphasising torps over beams etc..... Rather than giving it no thought what so ever which is the case now.
Much closer to canon, yes, but also infiniatley harder to programme and we have to be realistic unfortunately - which is why I liked the quasi adaptation by assimilating your tech and using back against you for Borg offense. This would be easier to programme as you would just equip all borg with all tech and given them a random % chance of triggering say beam overload 3 when you activate it.
Actually, I think it would be easier to equip the Borg with all six energy weapon types and a "damage detector" that cycles different weapon types looking for the maximum damage then it would be to equip them with all, oh, I dunno, 141 space abilities (48 separate abilities, three ranks of all but three abilities, which max at two ranks).
Actually, I think it would be easier to equip the Borg with all six energy weapon types and a "damage detector" that cycles different weapon types looking for the maximum damage then it would be to equip them with all, oh, I dunno, 141 space abilities (48 separate abilities, three ranks of all but three abilities, which max at two ranks).
Simple fix. Replace the tutorial Borg with... Say Klingons. I mean, Lieutenant into Lieutenant Commander you are fighting them any way. Keep the flow going.
They would need to re-do the Khitomer Accord STF in addition to the Tutorial.
I like the idea of unsoloable enemies. It would add so much atmosphere when doing explore missions if all of a sudden a nasty enemy warped in and you would have a "oh TRIBBLE" moment and then have to struggle to get away. As it is now, I often wonder why Starfleet hasn't taken over the entire Galaxy. There isn't really anything in game that can stand up to its ships despite what ship your piloting. It seems starfleet is assimilialating the Borg, we have borg crew, borg sets for ships, borg tribbles?. All we need now is a cut scene with Picard sending a message to the borg "We are Star Fleet, your collectiveness will be individualized and added to our C-Store. Resistance is futile!"
I like the idea of unsoloable enemies. It would add so much atmosphere when doing explore missions if all of a sudden a nasty enemy warped in and you would have a "oh TRIBBLE" moment and then have to struggle to get away. As it is now, I often wonder why Starfleet hasn't taken over the entire Galaxy. There isn't really anything in game that can stand up to its ships despite what ship your piloting. It seems starfleet is assimilialating the Borg, we have borg crew, borg sets for ships, borg tribbles?. All we need now is a cut scene with Picard sending a message to the borg "We are Star Fleet, your collectiveness will be individualized and added to our C-Store. Resistance is futile!"
I love this because it's tragically true "The Federation are assimiliating the Borg" and wonderfully sums up all I think is wrong with how the Borg have been wasted in this game.
From terrifying force of nature to a jolly green joke in just 30 years (or one maybe two generations of Federation starships).
Great discussion, fantastic ideas , FAT CHANCE. Stick anything close to this into the game and the forums will fill up with " We are being denied content, because we are casual gamers" As i stated before , look at the episodes and the comments made on the direction of the game, and you will realize that this is not a space sim , Its an sto version of toon town online.
The problem here is simple, and holds true for any mmo. Risk vs Reward. As katric suggested , say they make an assemilation cube, and then an stf that requires a team to engage , disable and board the cube to stop it from assemilationg a planet. The cube itself should be a hard nut to crack , and then you must deal with the surviving borg inside as you make your way to the power core to destroy it. Great fun , great 5 man dungeon, but what will the reward be? it needs to match the effort. so you get maybe a special borg rifle that does 35 dps and cycles through different beam types and settings in order to counter the borg ability to adapt. worth it? sure, then the flood gates open
Posts start appearing where people scream that because they are not in a fleet , or that pugs suck , they are being denied content, and will never get the borg super gun, that it is only for the elite gamers that take the time to figure out how to beat the cube. So cryptic's eyes bug out , they make a solo version with the same reward , to passify the masses, and then the people who put in the time to beat the group cube feel like they have been sold out.
Before anything like this can even be considered, cryptic needs to take a stand on how they want the end game to play out. Seems to me they have already made the choice to make this game a role players dream , the rest of us will just have to go play something else to challange us.
Great discussion, fantastic ideas , FAT CHANCE. Stick anything close to this into the game and the forums will fill up with " We are being denied content, because we are casual gamers".
I find your lack of optimism disturbing..
They haven't given the casuals any soloable STFs yet, even though the Borg set is only attainable through them (with the exception of the console being available from Assimilation).
They've been that way for two months now, and I for one, haven't seen any threads like you describe since that first week after Season 3 went live.
People whine all the time, but the Devs can and have shown the ability to differentiate between selfish, "I'm too lazy to work to get the best stuff in game" whining, and the "There's honestly something wrong in this game" constructive criticism.
They haven't given the casuals any soloable STFs yet, even though the Borg set is only attainable through them (with the exception of the console being available from Assimilation).
They've been that way for two months now, and I for one, haven't seen any threads like you describe since that first week after Season 3 went live.
People whine all the time, but the Devs can and have shown the ability to differentiate between selfish, "I'm too lazy to work to get the best stuff in game" whining, and the "There's honestly something wrong in this game" constructive criticism.
Also...
If Borg Cubes and and Tactical Cubes become more powerful then to be handled by single players, it just means you won't meet them in regular missions anymore. We just fight Borg spheres and probes and whatever in-betweens we devise.
For most players, that just means a change of the typical game models they meet. The actual difficulty doesn't. But the idea that there are borg cubes out there and they are more powerful then even a "Battleship" like the Sphere will give the Borg some teeth.
What Cryptic needs to do, of course, is to also have a few missions where the bigger ships are used. Assuming we would keep the DSEs around, Cubes must appear there.
Actually, I don't think the Borg Diamond (Queens ship) should be in the game, except as maybe as the final boss of an STF.
There should be three varieties of Borg Cubes.
Patrol Cubes, the "normal" Cubes we see all over the place in DSEs.
Tactical Cubes.
What I think of as the "Assimilation Cubes", a huge Cube, much larger (at least 1.5X to 2X the size of the current Cubes) that requires a Fleet Action.
So it would be:
Partially Assimilated ships - Basic Frigates
Probes - Science Ships
Spheres - Escorts
Patrol Cubes - Cruisers
Tactical Cubes - Battle Ships
Assimilation Cubes - Fleet Action Big-Baddy
Diamond - STF End Boss (Maybe)
I don't particularly like the idea of the Borg "stealing" the abilities you yourself use, that doesn't fit with the canon to my mind, and it feels cheap IMHO.
I would prefer that the Borg adapt their defenses based on what we do, and adapt their weaponry based on our defenses.
For defense, I would like them to use the scaling adaptation I've already listed, it just "feels right" to me.
For offense, I would like the Borg to adapt to us. For example, I use a T5 Cruiser, I have 4 Engineering Consoles, and I plug two Tetraburnium Consoles in there, I have pretty good resistances to Plasma, Tetryon, Polaron, and Antiproton damage, so I want the Borg to start using Phasers and Disruptors, which I probably have very little resistance to. That seems closer to canon to me, the Borg adapting both their defense and offense.
All seems reasonable but for me a Borg version of Sci's ship Sensor analysis would be more in keeping with the Borg ability to adapt to your defences. Honestly can;t remember the borg using a weapon other than those weird green beams.
I'm not even sure the Borg should have shields, should they? Shouldn't they just have massive hull regen capability? This would require players to adapt their style to the borg, empasising torps over beams etc..... Rather than giving it no thought what so ever which is the case now.
No idea, but it's clear that the Borg need something to give them some teeth...
Great discussion, fantastic ideas , FAT CHANCE. Stick anything close to this into the game and the forums will fill up with " We are being denied content, because we are casual gamers" As i stated before , look at the episodes and the comments made on the direction of the game, and you will realize that this is not a space sim , Its an sto version of toon town online.
It's also a question of quantity vs quality where the borg are concerned. In DSEs and Randon type explore B'Tran missions, you should be pitted against a single Borg ship, not hundreds or a chain of 5 of them. That single borg ship should be tough to kill without necessarily changing the difficulty of the overall mission. Borg would simply feel more terrible if there were fewer of them in each encounter but the 1 ship you do need to kill takes as long as the original mission to kill 5 did (for example).
The Borg could have been 'presented', scripted and used differently to keep the fear factor in place without necessarily making the game more difficult overall for the casuals.
They should not have been wasted in the tutorial and then given a cop out time travel crock of a story to justify it. Why on earth the tutorial did not focus on the Klinks is anyone's guess. It's as though someone in Marketing who knows nothing about Trek got wind of the Borg and jammed them in as a cheap sales ploy.
The first time a player should encounter a cube should be during an early mission to the far reaches of space. This mission should result in nothing short of the anhiliation of the player - i.e. the mission is achived when the player ship is destroyed. So, the player still achieves the mission but the Borg fear factor is maintained. This should be a teaser - there should be no more contact with the Borg until RA.
The Borg should definitely have some unique form of offense/defense skill such as those listed in this thread, to make them more 'Borgy'
There should be fewer, tougher Borg ships wherever they are encountered. The Borg depend on quality not quantity, sending single cubes sometimes to assimiliate entire cultures.
The Borg should exhibit some of the tech the Federation has stolen from them - why don't they use their own technology against the Federation?
Comments
A couple things to add to this particular conversation.
First off, Drone. If One is any indicator, then the Borg can still get much, much scarier.
And we have no idea where the Mobile Emitter is as far as technology goes.
Yes, it's from the 29th Century, but how do we know it's the pinnacle of their technology? Do we really think that B'Lanna's Hydro-spanner is the be-all-end-all of Voyagers gear? Or a Hand Phaser? Seems to me that the Bio-neural Gel Packs are more advanced.
For all we know, the Mobile Emitter technology and materials were developed in the late 25th century, and it's design and materials merely made more efficient as time goes on.
Imagine the Borg with the technology of the 29th century, or of the 31st we saw in Enterprise. The Borg have not hit a plateau of technological development, and they likely won't, not for a long time yet.
The Borg can be, and should be, far more terrifying.
Neither is STO, and the Federation was always close on the heels of the Borg. Just look at Data. He's in every way superior to a Borg drone. If we could mass produce Soong-type androids the Borg would be done for.
They sit on the edges of that scale. The Federation was in TNG almost at the end of 8, Data is already something that would be classified as 9, but those things were rare. Similarly there can be civilization on 9 that are not as far as the Borg.
No, in fact the Romulans invented the almost unsoloable Scimitar warbird, mean Thalaron mines etc. Give something like that to a player character instead of a stupid AI and he will wreak havoc even more than with a Borg cube. (And I'm pretty sure that a Borg cube in the hands of a player would be devastating. If we assume it would get the same amount of powers like a normal T5 ship while retaining it's special Borg abilities.
30 years in that the Federation made weapon-tech progress for 60, helped by stolen Borg-tech, a de-assimilated Borg all while the Borg seemingly lay beaten in a ditch and tried to rebuilt some kind of power base.
You overlook a tiny problem. The Borg have assimilated species who could have developed that kind of technology. Now they can't because they are gone and so the Borg can't assimilate it. The Borg need to assimilate someone again who has something that would make them scarier. But they have already everything they can take. The remaining races either have nothing of interest or are too strong or smart to be simply assimilated. Federation? Yeah, they got a bit of us, but in the end they were always beaten. Species 8472? A desaster. Iconians? Heck those see the Borg as toy soldiers.
I put in my sig. I love that.
Mate, all this stuff is your opinion, and you are welcome to it, but none of it amounts to anything other than your own 'mind-plot'. All evidence is to the contrary that the feds could have caught the borg in 30 years who are in turn only 1 tech lvl down from the Q who are basically God and who apparently found nothing else in the galaxy to assimilate in 30 years to advance themselves.
Additionally there are a new series of books that offer a new evolution of the Borg and they are considerably more canon than your Star Trek RPG.
The thread was aboput a different vision of the Borg than your own, so start your own 'Borg are rubbish' thread and post your stories there perhaps?
Who said? You're only looking at what the Borg have access to as far as Alpha Quadrant, Beta Quadrant, and Fluidic Space species.
The Borg have been known to go into other dimensions, distant Galaxies, and manipulate the time line.
Who is to say what species the Borg have encountered in the Gamma Quadrant? Or in distant Galaxies & Alternate Dimensions?
The Borg could have assimilated some species or technological organism from a distant Galaxy, who's to know?
And even if we take their current power level as indicative that they haven't, we have to take into account that the Borg have been, and are, present in parts of Space we have no information on. A Borg re-vamp would just have to include an update to the Path to 2409, a continuance into 2410 (which is rightly deserved by the Featured Episodes and the continual advancement of the KDF into the Eta Eridani and Psi Velorum Sector Blocks).
Just include a paragraph on an NPC ship encountering a Borg probe that was much more powerful than previous examples, still winning the day, and Liberating a drone in the process that updates them about the successful assimilation of ~Species blah-blah-blah-blah from Galactic Cluster Blah-Blah~ and the improved technology the Borg attained thereby.
What evidence? I'm basing what I say exactly on the same evidence as you, hard canon and soft canon.
ROFL. Sorry, this isn't Star Wars! This is Star Trek, there are only two types of canon, hard canon and soft canon. Hard canon is everything that was seen on screen, soft canon is all the other licensed products. Sorry, your books mean exactly as much as the info from the RPG.
This thread is about changing the Borg that are in the game at the moment. I'm against this and so I'm posting here. This is a discussion board. If you don't want to use it for that start a blog.
Woahwoahwoah, where does it say that, except the attempted manipulation of the timeline that would have allowed the Borg to assimilate humanity before they developed something that would have been worth assimilating?
Otherwise I like the idea of Borg turning up who assimilated something new and dangerous. I just don't want our actual Borg retconned to uber-beings they definitely aren't anymore.
Oh, I'm not arguing for a retcon either, just a perfectly logical and canon-safe "Oh TRIBBLE they've adapted anew or assimilated something anew and are now uber-dangerous again!"
As to where and when it was established that the Borg go to other Galaxies and Dimensions...
Well, Species 8472 (Undine) are from a different dimension the Borg invaded in search of new species to assimilate, that show inter-dimensional exploration and attempted assimilation.
Seven of Nine noted in the Episode "The Gift" that the Borg had been to, and assimilated, a species in Galactic Cluster 3. In "The Haunting of Deck Twelve" Seven mentioned that the Borg had been to Galactic Cluster 8 and assimilated a species there.
Okay, granted.
If I look at the info about intergalactic travel in Star Trek and the numbers of the species they assimilated there I would assume that they divided the Milky Way into "Galactic Clusters" just like the Federation divided it into quadrants.
Read the entry on Galactic Cluster 3, nothing like that exists in this Galaxy.
Also, Galactic Cluster is a legitimate Cosmological term:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_cluster
I'd certainly love to see something along these lines; at the very least give all Borg (both space and Ground) the reactive shielding power from the Aegis Set. ("Oh crud they assimilated a research vessel equipped with the new Aegis set"; Voila...)
This.
The Borg's drop in power from TNG to Voy was both precipitous and nonsensical. No amount of Federation know-how can explain Voyager's repeated encounters (and defeats) of the collective over the years. Only poor writing could explain that. Sadly, that is canon now. Cryptic seems to have continued that trend, though whether they are willing participants or are towing CBS's line is up for debate.
In STO, the Borg are pasty cyber-medicated emo's. I'm surprised they don't sparkle in sunlight. That really needs to change. I mean, they don't even try to assimilate my ship when I fly through Gamma Orionis (low self-esteem? Check.). A new story arc where the Borg start becoming more and more dangerous would be a welcome change. We're sent to find out why, and we discover that the Borg found a Preserver data-cache, or Iconian relics, or Chuck Norris' medicine cabinet. And we find clues to another location where we have to stop the Borg from getting more data / technology / Norris meds.
Or maybe, the Borg decide to use all the knowledge they've gained through assimilation and put it to good use. All the species they've assimilated know how to research, so the Borg know that too. Maybe this whole time they've been in "upgrade" mode, sending older, weaker units to the front while they research and upgrade others.
Or maybe they should assimilate a transport full of Betazoid counselors so they can get the help they need.
Z
I don't think it was poor writing so much as desperate writing.
Before the first episode of Voyager ever aired, we knew several things about the Borg:
So, a Star Trek show based on the premise of getting home from the Delta Quadrant would have to deal with them sooner or later. And any cheap "skip around their space without being detected" would feel just as cheap as it is. At the same time, having a crew we've gotten to know over three seasons get assimilated by the first passing Cube was not acceptable.
So, the writers had to figure out a way to get Voyager through Borg space, encountering Borg, yet without being assimilated.
Their answer was twofold, give the Borg something bigger to worry about, and stealthily nerf the Borg to make it somewhat believable at the time.
8472 provided the first half, and cutting down on the adaptation speed and creativity (but not the haughty attitude) of the Collective accomplished the second.
If the Borg during Voyager were as creative and adaptive as the Borg during TNG, the first second Janeway threatened to erase the Doctor to eliminate the Nanite data, the Borg would have beamed Voyagers main computer off the ship and extracted the information at the same time they beamed hundreds of drones aboard Voyager to assimilate the crew and the rest of the ship.
I was thinking about how the Borg could be a lot more "borgy". Let them "steal" your abilities in space and on the ground. A Borg Cube hitting you with Beam Overload III could be fun.
not a bad thought at all:cool:
This is nice and there is gaming precident for this sort of thing. Having the borg hit you with whatever you just hit them with would make you think twice about constantly popping these buffs and debuffs that seem to have taken over Star Trek in STO format.
Would you pop RSP if you knew the Borg might then do the same just as you preppped for your Alpha? Would you hit torpedo high yield 3 knowing it might come straight back and one shot you with the borg having already stripped your shields? This woudl require some thought about how to take down a borg cube.
Right now it requires no thought for me at all, I simply approach and stay on a single shield facing in my escort, pop all buffs and 'fire everything' - the borg goes pop in about ten seconds.
So in summary:
More variety of Borg vessels (Diamonds etc plus partially assimilated faction ships) with cubes and tactical cubes left for STFs and fleet actions respectively.
Some form of reactive shielding tech
Improved hull/shield regen
Holding beam/energy drain special.
Classic Borg look...
Actually, I don't think the Borg Diamond (Queens ship) should be in the game, except as maybe as the final boss of an STF.
There should be three varieties of Borg Cubes.
So it would be:
I don't particularly like the idea of the Borg "stealing" the abilities you yourself use, that doesn't fit with the canon to my mind, and it feels cheap IMHO.
I would prefer that the Borg adapt their defenses based on what we do, and adapt their weaponry based on our defenses.
For defense, I would like them to use the scaling adaptation I've already listed, it just "feels right" to me.
For offense, I would like the Borg to adapt to us. For example, I use a T5 Cruiser, I have 4 Engineering Consoles, and I plug two Tetraburnium Consoles in there, I have pretty good resistances to Plasma, Tetryon, Polaron, and Antiproton damage, so I want the Borg to start using Phasers and Disruptors, which I probably have very little resistance to. That seems closer to canon to me, the Borg adapting both their defense and offense.
Much closer to canon, yes, but also infiniatley harder to programme and we have to be realistic unfortunately - which is why I liked the quasi adaptation by assimilating your tech and using back against you for Borg offense. This would be easier to programme as you would just equip all borg with all tech and given them a random % chance of triggering say beam overload 3 when you activate it.
Can't argue with your Borg defense suggestion.
I like your Borg ship ideas, their classes and respective roles
It is a bit nuts that the Borg themselves do not use Borg technology!
I'm not even sure the Borg should have shields, should they? Shouldn't they just have massive hull regen capability? This would require players to adapt their style to the borg, emphasising torps over beams etc..... Rather than giving it no thought what so ever which is the case now.
Actually, I think it would be easier to equip the Borg with all six energy weapon types and a "damage detector" that cycles different weapon types looking for the maximum damage then it would be to equip them with all, oh, I dunno, 141 space abilities (48 separate abilities, three ranks of all but three abilities, which max at two ranks).
And that's just the Bridge Officer abilities, that number grows if we throw in Player Abilities.
Yes, ok, I must have misunderstood. I was wondering how a borg mob would know what consoles you had equipped....
They would need to re-do the Khitomer Accord STF in addition to the Tutorial.
No harm no foul
The Borg are efficient, the scripts running them should be as well.
I love this because it's tragically true "The Federation are assimiliating the Borg" and wonderfully sums up all I think is wrong with how the Borg have been wasted in this game.
From terrifying force of nature to a jolly green joke in just 30 years (or one maybe two generations of Federation starships).
The problem here is simple, and holds true for any mmo. Risk vs Reward. As katric suggested , say they make an assemilation cube, and then an stf that requires a team to engage , disable and board the cube to stop it from assemilationg a planet. The cube itself should be a hard nut to crack , and then you must deal with the surviving borg inside as you make your way to the power core to destroy it. Great fun , great 5 man dungeon, but what will the reward be? it needs to match the effort. so you get maybe a special borg rifle that does 35 dps and cycles through different beam types and settings in order to counter the borg ability to adapt. worth it? sure, then the flood gates open
Posts start appearing where people scream that because they are not in a fleet , or that pugs suck , they are being denied content, and will never get the borg super gun, that it is only for the elite gamers that take the time to figure out how to beat the cube. So cryptic's eyes bug out , they make a solo version with the same reward , to passify the masses, and then the people who put in the time to beat the group cube feel like they have been sold out.
Before anything like this can even be considered, cryptic needs to take a stand on how they want the end game to play out. Seems to me they have already made the choice to make this game a role players dream , the rest of us will just have to go play something else to challange us.
I find your lack of optimism disturbing..
They haven't given the casuals any soloable STFs yet, even though the Borg set is only attainable through them (with the exception of the console being available from Assimilation).
They've been that way for two months now, and I for one, haven't seen any threads like you describe since that first week after Season 3 went live.
People whine all the time, but the Devs can and have shown the ability to differentiate between selfish, "I'm too lazy to work to get the best stuff in game" whining, and the "There's honestly something wrong in this game" constructive criticism.
If Borg Cubes and and Tactical Cubes become more powerful then to be handled by single players, it just means you won't meet them in regular missions anymore. We just fight Borg spheres and probes and whatever in-betweens we devise.
For most players, that just means a change of the typical game models they meet. The actual difficulty doesn't. But the idea that there are borg cubes out there and they are more powerful then even a "Battleship" like the Sphere will give the Borg some teeth.
What Cryptic needs to do, of course, is to also have a few missions where the bigger ships are used. Assuming we would keep the DSEs around, Cubes must appear there.
All seems reasonable but for me a Borg version of Sci's ship Sensor analysis would be more in keeping with the Borg ability to adapt to your defences. Honestly can;t remember the borg using a weapon other than those weird green beams.
It's also a question of quantity vs quality where the borg are concerned. In DSEs and Randon type explore B'Tran missions, you should be pitted against a single Borg ship, not hundreds or a chain of 5 of them. That single borg ship should be tough to kill without necessarily changing the difficulty of the overall mission. Borg would simply feel more terrible if there were fewer of them in each encounter but the 1 ship you do need to kill takes as long as the original mission to kill 5 did (for example).
The Borg could have been 'presented', scripted and used differently to keep the fear factor in place without necessarily making the game more difficult overall for the casuals.
They should not have been wasted in the tutorial and then given a cop out time travel crock of a story to justify it. Why on earth the tutorial did not focus on the Klinks is anyone's guess. It's as though someone in Marketing who knows nothing about Trek got wind of the Borg and jammed them in as a cheap sales ploy.
The first time a player should encounter a cube should be during an early mission to the far reaches of space. This mission should result in nothing short of the anhiliation of the player - i.e. the mission is achived when the player ship is destroyed. So, the player still achieves the mission but the Borg fear factor is maintained. This should be a teaser - there should be no more contact with the Borg until RA.
The Borg should definitely have some unique form of offense/defense skill such as those listed in this thread, to make them more 'Borgy'
There should be fewer, tougher Borg ships wherever they are encountered. The Borg depend on quality not quantity, sending single cubes sometimes to assimiliate entire cultures.
The Borg should exhibit some of the tech the Federation has stolen from them - why don't they use their own technology against the Federation?