So I've been watching all the Star Trek movies again, and I have to ask, why do so many people hate Insurrection and Nemesis? I mean, they aren't as good as say Wrath of Khan, but then, what is?
Take Nemesis. The overall plot is decent, the issues it explores through the vital differences between Data/B4 and Picard/Shinzon are well done (overall) and while Shinzon himself is hardly the best movie villain the creepy Viceroy picks up a lot of the slack and the battle itself is great.
Is it because Data dies? Because, literarily speaking Data coming back through B4 couldn't be a bigger Chekov's gun if they'd tried.
Edit: Huh, I could have sworn I was posting this in 10F, no matter, not worth a clone thread. Then again, we are talking about Nemesis.
So I've been watching all the Star Trek movies again, and I have to ask, why do so many people hate Insurrection and Nemesis? I mean, they aren't as good as say Wrath of Khan, but then, what is?
Take Nemesis. The overall plot is decent, the issues it explores through the vital differences between Data/B4 and Picard/Shinzon are well done (overall) and while Shinzon himself is hardly the best movie villain the creepy Viceroy picks up a lot of the slack and the battle itself is great.
Is it because Data dies? Because, literarily speaking Data coming back through B4 couldn't be a bigger Chekov's gun if they'd tried.
My only problem with Nemesis is that the Director had complete contempt for Star Trek as a whole...
What the Hell did we need a 10 minute dune buggy chase for??
So I've been watching all the Star Trek movies again, and I have to ask, why do so many people hate Insurrection and Nemesis? I mean, they aren't as good as say Wrath of Khan, but then, what is?
Take Nemesis. The overall plot is decent, the issues it explores through the vital differences between Data/B4 and Picard/Shinzon are well done (overall) and while Shinzon himself is hardly the best movie villain the creepy Viceroy picks up a lot of the slack and the battle itself is great.
Is it because Data dies? Because, literarily speaking Data coming back through B4 couldn't be a bigger Chekov's gun if they'd tried.
Edit: Huh, I could have sworn I was posting this in 10F, no matter, not worth a clone thread. Then again, we are talking about Nemesis.
My problem with the Data/B4 substory is - IT WAS ALREADY DONE in the series to deth with Lore (hell, including Lore somehow might have made it better/more interesting.) It felt like a complete rehash; and if I wanted that, I could rewatch certain episodes.
The whole Shinzon aspect started out okay - but once we find out he's somehow a clone of Picard, etc. Ugh. It was done to give Picard a nemesis of sorts, yes; but the reason Khan works as Kirk's nemesis for STII:TWoK is BECAUSE of the previous history and encounter between Kirk/Khan. It doesn't work well for Shinzon/Picard because while yes, Shinzon is a clone - the characters never met before - and it comes across as a really cheap/gimmicky plot device.
Again, as another example - ST:First Contact's drama works so well BECAUSE of Picard's history with the Borg - like STII; it bulilds on that history. In Nemesis Shinzon is just another mustache twirllling Villian that the audience never saw before and never will again. Nemesis, for me, just comes across as a bad rehash of previous TNG plots (and hell, for me even the space battles are inane with them calling out shield percentages left and right - /yawn.)
Obviously, you enjoyed it more; but to me it was a rehash with some nice visuals (and as someone who loathed Voyager - I could have done without yjr 'Admiral Janeway' cameo all together.)
I watched about half his review (I really should be in bed already or I would have watched it all) and he does have some valid points. Its just, somehow, not enough to make me dislike the movie. Definitely not the best Trek film (though still not as bad as V or as boring as I) but I enjoyed it.
I dunno, maybe I'm just set up to naturally like anything Trek? I blame my parents, they're the ones who literally raised me on the stuff.
Maybe I'm asking the wrong question. The question isn't why don't you like ST:N, but why do you hate it so much?
I wouldn't say I hate the movie, but i do agree with Lord Plinkett on this one.
Its nearly a direct plot rip off of Wrath of Khan, with lots of pointless action, plot holes, and lack of quality and smarts thrown in for good measure. The videos just happen to put it into far more detail.
it gets hated on just like every other star trek movie including the awesome JJ Abrahams movie:
because Star Trek fan #122211244555 has evolved to the point where he/she believe unless they personally oversee the project, it's not really star trek.
I for one make popcorn, sit back, and just enjoy the damn show.
it gets hated on just like every other star trek movie including the awesome JJ Abrahams movie:
Awesome? It crapped all over TOS and wrecked two timelines, the original through the destruction of Romulus (kudos to Cryptic for salvaging that) and the new one through the destruction of Vulcan. The reimagined Kirk and Spock are crappy, being promoted from cadet straight to captain is *censored*, the story requires you to read a prequel comic to make halfway sense of it, not mentioning that now they brought out another comic to explain where Nero was for 25 years with the Narada. Of course he got psychic powers through drugs and met V'Ger who told him how to find Spock.
"Awesome" is the completely wrong word.
Nemesis is awesome when compared to Abrams-Trek. But simply bad when compared to anything but Insurrection. It rehashes the plot of WoK adds cheap action sequences and shock effects, mocks the viewer (oh, let's show a picture of Picard as a cadet, but our audience is dumb, so let's show him with a shaved head, otherwise they won't realize it's Picard). Grrrrrrr.
There was a real missed opportunity with this film
There's a theme that was sorely wasted, as in are we products of society or born to be the people we are, ie nature verses nurture?
Shinzon was of Picard's DNA but had a very differet upbringing, and therefore was a different person. This is defineately the nurture camp.
However wouldn't it have been great if, at the end it was Shinzon who makes the sacrifice, not Data... a last minute change of 'soul' and nod to the idea that we are who we are through undefined properties in our make up that the environment can't change.
That would of been far more epic ad made him less 2 dimensional
My only problem with Nemesis is that the Director had complete contempt for Star Trek as a whole...
Exactly right. That's pretty evident from Baird's DVD commentaries.
What the Hell did we need a 10 minute dune buggy chase for??
That wouldn't have been so bad if, it had been a 24th century buggy with inertial stabilizers. At the very least, the rear mounted BFG9000 should have had a targeting stabilizer. It probably shouldn't have been ripping up the indigenous flora and fauna. Or at least Picard shouldn't have been gleefully ripping up the indigenous flora and fauna with it.
Throughout the TNG series Picard has been defined by his discipline and attention to duty. The Picard in Nemesis simply rejected those concepts.
Worf, the consummate warrior, shrieked like a child when a hand grabs his ankle.
I've heard it may be related to a concept know as: "unpleasable fanbase"
OH SNAP! :eek:
I actually thought it had more to do with the conversation heavy story and lack of action as to why people hate it so much. I thought it was a good trek film, and in any other Sci-FI skin it might have even been great.
I didn't like the Data substory - in the end it became completely pointless as Data was basically "back" (tho in limited form) (why go thru the whole thing of Data's death, only to have him come back?)
The dune buggy thing was also completely pointless and out of "trek" character.
The director was a complete TRIBBLE and a bore - listen to his commentary on the DVD. As other actors have pointed out, he had absolutely ZERO interest in Star Trek and you could see that come across in the movie.
The Shinzon/Picard thing was also weak (as others have pointed out - there was no connection with this "nemesis", he was some test tube baddie brought about by covert romulans - very scary.....not)
The only positives I can think of from the movie: romulans (and seeing remans) and the space battle at the end (very well made CG).
In my mind, it is the worst Trek movie, I would put it as worse than trek 5 (with the big head god creature).
(As a side note, reading original stories etc on both nemesis and #5, they started out with fairly interesting stories, but got corrupted by too many "cooks in the kitchen")
why go thru the whole thing of Data's death, only to have him come back?
Ask comic books... Marvel's been doing it so long even the other X-men heave a collective sigh when Jean Gray comes back from the dead again. And Marvel hasn't been at it long enough to ever catch up to DC.
Which has a lot to do with why I didn't like Nemesis. I didn't mind the JJ Abrams Star Trek, I could actually deal with Star Trek 5 if only because it created a separate faction of Vulcans that weren't like robots for six years out of seven. I don't even mind Star Trek 4 because it's a Star Trek movie my wife will watch with me and not get bored of.
But Nemesis just felt too much like why I quit reading X-men around the time a clone of Jean Gray from the future summoned a parallel universe version of Jean Gray who then joined the X-men after the clone subsequently died. The whole Dune Buggy thing goes in there, too. If there's anything comic books like more than resurrecting dead characters it's completely random out-of-context action scenes.
The way Picard destroys everyone with his morality monologues is epic. And the movie touches on subjects that are very interesting, like Trek should be.
Nemesis was largely unnecessary. And why kill one of the main charcters only to bring him back five minutes later ? As i said unnecessary. :rolleyes:
why go thru the whole thing of Data's death, only to have him come back?
See: Spock
Basically the actor (Brent Spiner) didn't want to play Data anymore, (he felt he was aging too much to convincingly play the unchanging android) but having a back door written in to have the character resurrected if need be. Ala Spock putting his katra into McCoy.
i dont mind nemesis but it could have been so much better.
i see the movie in two halves.
part 1 has a wedding that does not quite work, humour that is not that funny, the whole b4 thing is weak and has been done before, the chase with the argo seemed out of character for picard, (not only did they say the planet was safe when it was not, they just broke the prime directive) and even worf seemingly scared by the hand grabbing him.
the second half i loved. dark and menacing, shinzon becoming more evil as the film went on, loved the space battle and the emotion. was not happy data died but i actually liked the fact his memories were put into b4.
i blame the director a lot for most of the mess but i still enjoyed it for what it was. i actually remember when i came out of the cinema thinking it was one of the best films and on par with first contact, just time and repeated viewing has brought me back down.
Oh yea forgot to mention Insurrection: I actually enjoyed this movie, and thought it was a "light" movie compared to the other TNG movies, and showed the actors were having fun with the story etc (they came across as really relaxed). I didn't have any problem with the movie (I kinda consider this the TNG's Voyage Home hehe)
With regards to the Data death thing. Yea I know there's a parallel with Spock. I just don't feel it was well written and/or portrayed in the movie (hence, for me, the feeling of it being pointless).
I thought Nemesis was kind of cool. Not great. But it could have been. just watch some deleted scenes they are fantastic.
the thing about Data's death was the same as with Picard's clone: The movie tells the story about how experiences form a character and not it genetic code. That is why Shinzon was so different from Picard and the end-scene with B4 is so important.
Data copied his experiences into B4, who - by slowly processing them - gradually turns into Data.
A few things that would have made the movie so much better:
- NOT cutting the scenes they did (except perhaps the stupid seat-belt-scene)
- let Patrick Steward play Shinzon
- cut Troi's slightly stupid mind-TRIBBLE-scene
I also liked Insurrection. I felt it was a well-told story.
But seen from the POV of a Star Trek fan, I absolutely hated the new JJ Abrams Star Trek. While I feel it is a nice sci-fi movie that's a lot of fun to watch, has great effects and an awesome soundtrack, it is just no Star Trek movie. It actually feels more like a Star trek spoof by laughing about canon and established technology.
The only movie even remotely tapping into the Trek spirit, is ironically the Motion Picture. The only real movie where the unknown is trully indulged and explored. It had more of a "Rendezvous with Rama" concept (from Arthur C. Clark) and it was easier to follow.
By far my favourite movie. Every movie after that was purely visual effects and one liners. I normally just skip between battle scenes
The only movie even remotely tapping into the Trek spirit, is ironically the Motion Picture. The only real movie where the unknown is trully indulged and explored. It had more of a "Rendezvous with Rama" concept (from Arthur C. Clark) and it was easier to follow.
By far my favourite movie. Every movie after that was purely visual effects and one liners. I normally just skip between battle scenes
I agree TMP has a special place in my heart I also love the new Director's Cut (the remade scenes are brilliant). I also love the soundtrack! (best trek soundtrack too, it's an experience in itself when listening to it, creating such a wonderful soundscape).
Comments
However, to answer your question, this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZjkHUrEuHc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoWfTq8dYos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DT7sSp-3_I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi5mj6-CUiY
My only problem with Nemesis is that the Director had complete contempt for Star Trek as a whole...
What the Hell did we need a 10 minute dune buggy chase for??
You are right, this should have been 10F and I goofed, but phrasing it like that comes off a bit - brusque.
My problem with the Data/B4 substory is - IT WAS ALREADY DONE in the series to deth with Lore (hell, including Lore somehow might have made it better/more interesting.) It felt like a complete rehash; and if I wanted that, I could rewatch certain episodes.
The whole Shinzon aspect started out okay - but once we find out he's somehow a clone of Picard, etc. Ugh. It was done to give Picard a nemesis of sorts, yes; but the reason Khan works as Kirk's nemesis for STII:TWoK is BECAUSE of the previous history and encounter between Kirk/Khan. It doesn't work well for Shinzon/Picard because while yes, Shinzon is a clone - the characters never met before - and it comes across as a really cheap/gimmicky plot device.
Again, as another example - ST:First Contact's drama works so well BECAUSE of Picard's history with the Borg - like STII; it bulilds on that history. In Nemesis Shinzon is just another mustache twirllling Villian that the audience never saw before and never will again. Nemesis, for me, just comes across as a bad rehash of previous TNG plots (and hell, for me even the space battles are inane with them calling out shield percentages left and right - /yawn.)
Obviously, you enjoyed it more; but to me it was a rehash with some nice visuals (and as someone who loathed Voyager - I could have done without yjr 'Admiral Janeway' cameo all together.)
I still agree with Plinkett.
Nemesis = Clunky, horror movie version of Wrath of Kahn.
I dunno, maybe I'm just set up to naturally like anything Trek? I blame my parents, they're the ones who literally raised me on the stuff.
wow. /10char
I wouldn't say I hate the movie, but i do agree with Lord Plinkett on this one.
Its nearly a direct plot rip off of Wrath of Khan, with lots of pointless action, plot holes, and lack of quality and smarts thrown in for good measure. The videos just happen to put it into far more detail.
because Star Trek fan #122211244555 has evolved to the point where he/she believe unless they personally oversee the project, it's not really star trek.
I for one make popcorn, sit back, and just enjoy the damn show.
:mad:
Awesome? It crapped all over TOS and wrecked two timelines, the original through the destruction of Romulus (kudos to Cryptic for salvaging that) and the new one through the destruction of Vulcan. The reimagined Kirk and Spock are crappy, being promoted from cadet straight to captain is *censored*, the story requires you to read a prequel comic to make halfway sense of it, not mentioning that now they brought out another comic to explain where Nero was for 25 years with the Narada. Of course he got psychic powers through drugs and met V'Ger who told him how to find Spock.
"Awesome" is the completely wrong word.
Nemesis is awesome when compared to Abrams-Trek. But simply bad when compared to anything but Insurrection. It rehashes the plot of WoK adds cheap action sequences and shock effects, mocks the viewer (oh, let's show a picture of Picard as a cadet, but our audience is dumb, so let's show him with a shaved head, otherwise they won't realize it's Picard). Grrrrrrr.
Oh noes, its the never sleeping dstahl drone! Don't you need to regenerate yet? :eek:
There's a theme that was sorely wasted, as in are we products of society or born to be the people we are, ie nature verses nurture?
Shinzon was of Picard's DNA but had a very differet upbringing, and therefore was a different person. This is defineately the nurture camp.
However wouldn't it have been great if, at the end it was Shinzon who makes the sacrifice, not Data... a last minute change of 'soul' and nod to the idea that we are who we are through undefined properties in our make up that the environment can't change.
That would of been far more epic ad made him less 2 dimensional
That wouldn't have been so bad if, it had been a 24th century buggy with inertial stabilizers. At the very least, the rear mounted BFG9000 should have had a targeting stabilizer. It probably shouldn't have been ripping up the indigenous flora and fauna. Or at least Picard shouldn't have been gleefully ripping up the indigenous flora and fauna with it.
Throughout the TNG series Picard has been defined by his discipline and attention to duty. The Picard in Nemesis simply rejected those concepts.
Worf, the consummate warrior, shrieked like a child when a hand grabs his ankle.
The list is long and infuriating.
OH SNAP! :eek:
I actually thought it had more to do with the conversation heavy story and lack of action as to why people hate it so much. I thought it was a good trek film, and in any other Sci-FI skin it might have even been great.
The dune buggy thing was also completely pointless and out of "trek" character.
The director was a complete TRIBBLE and a bore - listen to his commentary on the DVD. As other actors have pointed out, he had absolutely ZERO interest in Star Trek and you could see that come across in the movie.
The Shinzon/Picard thing was also weak (as others have pointed out - there was no connection with this "nemesis", he was some test tube baddie brought about by covert romulans - very scary.....not)
The only positives I can think of from the movie: romulans (and seeing remans) and the space battle at the end (very well made CG).
In my mind, it is the worst Trek movie, I would put it as worse than trek 5 (with the big head god creature).
(As a side note, reading original stories etc on both nemesis and #5, they started out with fairly interesting stories, but got corrupted by too many "cooks in the kitchen")
Ask comic books... Marvel's been doing it so long even the other X-men heave a collective sigh when Jean Gray comes back from the dead again. And Marvel hasn't been at it long enough to ever catch up to DC.
Which has a lot to do with why I didn't like Nemesis. I didn't mind the JJ Abrams Star Trek, I could actually deal with Star Trek 5 if only because it created a separate faction of Vulcans that weren't like robots for six years out of seven. I don't even mind Star Trek 4 because it's a Star Trek movie my wife will watch with me and not get bored of.
But Nemesis just felt too much like why I quit reading X-men around the time a clone of Jean Gray from the future summoned a parallel universe version of Jean Gray who then joined the X-men after the clone subsequently died. The whole Dune Buggy thing goes in there, too. If there's anything comic books like more than resurrecting dead characters it's completely random out-of-context action scenes.
The way Picard destroys everyone with his morality monologues is epic. And the movie touches on subjects that are very interesting, like Trek should be.
Nemesis was largely unnecessary. And why kill one of the main charcters only to bring him back five minutes later ? As i said unnecessary. :rolleyes:
See: Spock
Basically the actor (Brent Spiner) didn't want to play Data anymore, (he felt he was aging too much to convincingly play the unchanging android) but having a back door written in to have the character resurrected if need be. Ala Spock putting his katra into McCoy.
:cool:
i see the movie in two halves.
part 1 has a wedding that does not quite work, humour that is not that funny, the whole b4 thing is weak and has been done before, the chase with the argo seemed out of character for picard, (not only did they say the planet was safe when it was not, they just broke the prime directive) and even worf seemingly scared by the hand grabbing him.
the second half i loved. dark and menacing, shinzon becoming more evil as the film went on, loved the space battle and the emotion. was not happy data died but i actually liked the fact his memories were put into b4.
i blame the director a lot for most of the mess but i still enjoyed it for what it was. i actually remember when i came out of the cinema thinking it was one of the best films and on par with first contact, just time and repeated viewing has brought me back down.
With regards to the Data death thing. Yea I know there's a parallel with Spock. I just don't feel it was well written and/or portrayed in the movie (hence, for me, the feeling of it being pointless).
Isn't that just like who we've got in charge of Trek now?
the thing about Data's death was the same as with Picard's clone: The movie tells the story about how experiences form a character and not it genetic code. That is why Shinzon was so different from Picard and the end-scene with B4 is so important.
Data copied his experiences into B4, who - by slowly processing them - gradually turns into Data.
A few things that would have made the movie so much better:
- NOT cutting the scenes they did (except perhaps the stupid seat-belt-scene)
- let Patrick Steward play Shinzon
- cut Troi's slightly stupid mind-TRIBBLE-scene
I also liked Insurrection. I felt it was a well-told story.
But seen from the POV of a Star Trek fan, I absolutely hated the new JJ Abrams Star Trek. While I feel it is a nice sci-fi movie that's a lot of fun to watch, has great effects and an awesome soundtrack, it is just no Star Trek movie. It actually feels more like a Star trek spoof by laughing about canon and established technology.
By far my favourite movie. Every movie after that was purely visual effects and one liners. I normally just skip between battle scenes
Also, the Scimitar was like the worst fan**** Villain Sue ever.
I agree