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Captains bound to ship class? NO!

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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Even Egypt will be in awe of our protest if you adopt this bad idea.

    Idunno. Egypt is pretty hardcore.

    Though I'd be amused to see Cryptic CS teleporting our toons into space...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I'm not fully caught up on the entire thread, but I wanted to get some thoughts committed to "paper" before I forget them.

    Edit: If I'm not obvious enough, I'm totally against forcing player to stick with one ship types until high level. There are better ways of handing the skill trees. I think a better effort would be to have a skills tutor in the interface that would suggest skills based on the player's ship type and other factors. It doesn't have to be that details.

    The Ship Command skills shouldn't be the focus of switching ships, because they really aren't the biggest factor. The difficulty in switching ships is the most of the rest of the Captain Skills. Switching to a new ship, a player is going to want to shift points around to buff the higher ranked (Lt Cmdr and Cmdr) BOff abilities usable on the new ship. But there is an exception that Escorts.

    Escorts are much easier to move into/out of because of the ranks of the Captain's skills that buffs to BOff Escort abilities. Player's don't have to dip into the Admiral ranks to buff their most power abilities. For the most part, player invest in these Captain skills are a matter of their builds (Starship Vecotors, Starship Weapons..general, subtype and damage type). These skills don't have to be changes out if they keep the weapon load outs similar. (Exceptions being the more exotic damage types, but the skills points would be used regardless of the ship selected). The exception for Escort only skills would be Starship Cannons which is merely a Lt Command ranked skill.

    So we have the disparity of Escorts Captain skills requirements vs the requirements Science Ship or Cruiser Captasin skills requirements for the upper ranked Boff abilities. And the added number of Captain skills you should need to run more effective Science Vessels and Cruiser.

    OK now onto the complexity that is the Ship Command skills.I don't see the need such skill differentiation for basic ship Command Skills. The skills beyond the Lt Commander level are just needless skip point sinks. At the high end (Admiral/General Levels), you got a Tier 3 skills for each ship type. To me that's just way to much. But I can't see a decent of redoing the Ship Command skills as purely reorganizing them.

    It just seems so counter to the way that the "real life" of Starship Captain would be. Beyond the book learning of command that a Ship Captains gets Lieutenant and Lt. Commander Ranked skills, the Tier 3 of Captain skills should be earned. Instead of player putting Skill Points into the specific Ship Command skills, the player should earn ranks in that skills for actually running missions in that ship. Lt through Lt Commander, the player is doing the book learning skills and integrating that learns with actually command experience. But command a ship effective, you have to actually experience in commanding that ship. You get the most of the ship, here crew and systems (i.e. the bufs that ship command skills give).

    When the player reaches Commander, they start earning the T3 Ship Command skill ranks for the actually using that ship. As a player gains a new ship, they will earn T3 Ship Command skill ranks for playing in that ship. Player that skip around between ships will take longer earn ranks than a player that specialize in one ship. But player skips around will eventually earn rank 9 for all of his ships.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Don't become EVE where you have to do everything one way. You honestly should just pull the ship skills out entirely aside from the generic skills. Maybe you just replace them with size skills or something.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    *skimmed entire thread*

    Pretty sure the answer is no, Mr. Stahl.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Restricting captains from using a class of ship that's not their own would be bad... rewarding them for using the right ship class however... good :-)

    If my captain is tactical and he flies a tactical ship... he knows how things work instinctively, which should increase his abilities. If he hops into a science ship however, he can fly it but things wouldn't come as smoothly to him so not only does he lose his tactical initiative but the science abilities the ship would normally have would also be less effective.

    What you need is a special skill you get just for flying the same type of ship as your captains class to encourage people to do it without limiting them to it. Maybe add a 10% cooldown to ALL abilities when using a ship which class doesn't match your class to show that your 'not as quick' as you would be if it was a ship type you were used to.

    Love the split ground/space skills idea tho.

    Nice idea!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Hi every one
    I would like to see all ship in game are universal, as Captain of the ship rank up or levels up the ship weapons slots ,deflectors, engines, shields slots and device slots and engineering, tactical, science consoles slot increase with the Captain rank. yes we see some forward thinking on this with shuttles that we now have in game, So depending on your officer class you ship would be Tactial cruiser or Science Cruiser or Engneering Cruiser the same for Escorts Tactical escort, Science Escort, or Engineering Escort. There could also be modifirer added also to the ship you choose to fkly depending on you officer class,
    thanks reading, stay safe and play hard STO is here to stay lets make STO the best damn MMO.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    can't we just get more skillpoints added for the ground section only,
    it seems like the amount of skill points now is about perfect.... if you only invest in space
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    If ship type will be fixed, what about a half-way or a rotation? You're rising through the ranks of Starfleet fast and they think the best way to train you is to give you experience with different commands. I would propose it is broken down in this way (but not fixed - pitch in if you like the idea):

    Tactical Officer
    Lt: Escort Only
    Lt Cmdr: Cruiser Only (Opt out - you may choose an Escort but you gain XP at 75% of normal rate)
    Cmdr: Sci Only (Opt out - you may choose an Escort but you gain XP at 65% of normal rate)
    Captain Onwards: Player choice

    Science Officer
    Lt: Sci Only
    Lt Cmdr: Cruiser Only (Opt out - you may choose a Sci but you gain XP at 75% of normal rate)
    Cmdr: Escort Only (Opt out - you may choose a Sci but you gain XP at 65% of normal rate)
    Captain Onwards: Player Choice

    Engineering Officer
    Lt: Cruiser Only
    Lt Cmdr: Escort Only (Opt out - you may choose a Cruiser but you gain XP at 75% of normal rate)
    Cmdr: Sci Only (Opt out - you may choose a Cruiser but you gain XP at 65% of normal rate)
    Captain Onwards: Player Choice

    The diminishing XP returns of opting out and sticking with the ship class that corresponds to your career means that you still have a choice, but the more often you opt out, the less XP you gain due to not being "trained" properly by Starfleet.

    If the idea of a rotation is liked, but an opt out isn't then simply remove the opt out comments from the above proposal ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Hmmm let me see where have I come across Skills being reworked totally...hmmm I think it was a Galaxy Far Far Away...CU NGE blah blah blah anyone? ^^

    By the time this "fix" comes out (if it is not done properly) alot of folks will already be in that Galaxy Far Far Away methinks. :rolleyes:

    If your going to "sort" skills then your going to definitely need to make the distribution of bang per buck more fairer. Restricting Ships to Careers etc is only going to hurt the C-Store and your revenue.

    So some general thoughts to throw out there for good or ill ^^

    Split Ground from Space Skillpoint allocations and any associated points pool.

    Minimise specialisations multipliers and give us broad skill point requirements across the board. i.e. same skill point costs to train Tricobalt as Photon Torp. This also includes all skills at MK III in the specialisms.
    Any Tier multiplier skills should focus on non-powers enhancements: i.e. Tiering up your Deflector Points for whatever ship you command (if Sci Captain), Tiering up your Weapon Critical Multiplier for whatever ship you command (if Tactical Captain), Tiering up your Hull Repair multiplier for whatever ship you command (if Engineer Captain).

    Have a select General Enhancements Category shared between the three Careers focused on aspects of Ship Enhancements and then a single Specialist Career Tree of enhancements.
    Base line all shipping equipment for all three Careers and have players enhance their respective Careers by the choices they make with the points they allocate.

    For Ground Skills pretty much similar as above but in respect to Ground Skills and enhancements such as Sci Heal/Resistances Multiplier, Tactical Critical Multiplier, Engineer Shield Heal/Resistances Multiplier.

    Have 3 Ship Tier Specialisations and eliminate end tier multiple choice skill point allocations. i.e. Top Rank Science Ship Skill covers all Top Tier Sci Ships. This increases revenue to C-Store for early bird sales on those who dont want to grind emblems for new ship content and know they get the full benefit from the purchase etc. Those who grind emblems also know they also get the full benefit for their efforts.

    Work on making it clearer what and how Skills affect what properly: listing equipment combinations affected by Skill and their associated mechanics at source (ui pop up or ingame database) for better informed choices and preventing frustrations that add negative goodwill to the game experience and development of the game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I'm very open to changes in the way the skills are handled but no one should have to be forced to use a certain class ship.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    If ship type will be fixed, what about a half-way or a rotation? You're rising through the ranks of Starfleet fast and they think the best way to train you is to give you experience with different commands. I would propose it is broken down in this way (but not fixed - pitch in if you like the idea):

    ...you just managed to come up with something even more arbitrarily constraining than the proposal from the Ask Cryptic.

    Well done.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    ...you just managed to come up with something even more arbitrarily constraining than the proposal from the Ask Cryptic.

    Well done.
    Indeed. Partly restricted is still restricted.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    other than its confusing i really dont think the skill system needs fixing. i actually like the fact there does not seem to be enough points to successfully make a great space and ground character. to me thats the whole point, you have to choose where to put them knowing that something will miss out. if someone wants to spread them out or i someone wants to max out space, or ground or whatever, its their choice. it does not really need dumbing down just needs to be clearly and easier to follow.

    many people seem to max out space anyway not realising that the final few points often give back no meaningful return and would be better in ground abilities. learning and tweaking your characters to get the best out of limited points is part of the fun.

    splitting the points into ground and space just ties people up in my view, and takes away the players options. the game s not that complex to begin with, lets not dumb it down when its not needed.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I totally agree with the OP.

    I have 5 characters, 3 Feds and 2 Klinks. And only a single fed character is a sci in a sci. The rest are Tacs in cruisers and engineers in escorts.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    other than its confusing i really dont think the skill system needs fixing. i actually like the fact there does not seem to be enough points to successfully make a great space and ground character. to me thats the whole point, you have to choose where to put them knowing that something will miss out. if someone wants to spread them out or i someone wants to max out space, or ground or whatever, its their choice. it does not really need dumbing down just needs to be clearly and easier to follow.

    many people seem to max out space anyway not realising that the final few points often give back no meaningful return and would be better in ground abilities. learning and tweaking your characters to get the best out of limited points is part of the fun.

    splitting the points into ground and space just ties people up in my view, and takes away the players options. the game s not that complex to begin with, lets not dumb it down when its not needed.

    agree....

    and when i read the tid bit on sticking a certain class in a certain ship up till a certain rank i was miffed...but then i thought about it.

    while i do not agree to ship limitations, i think there should be a plus or minus to skills (inherent) based on the ship and your class.

    this is not unlike penalties imposed on say a thief class wearing heavy armor normally reserved for paladins or knights...or vice verse.

    yeah, i know. that is comparing a space game to a fantasy based game....but the ideas are very similar in nature.

    this then begs the question...should we be able to "skin" ships to our liking in order to stay within our captains role? or do we suffer with a ship class and look we are not fond of for better stats?

    i for one vote skins be open to alter the ships looks even more then what we have now. that way people can still enjoy the game with the class benefits. cause lets face it. many people change ship classes because of looks probably more then because of abilities...but i may be wrong....lol
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    This is an awful idea. One of the things Cryptic is known for as a studio is customisation of your character and since the ships are essentially extensions of your character, this would also be contradictory to the nature of Cryptic as a development studio.

    Then you also have the fact that the way vessels are tiered and designed for specific classes doesn't necessarily correlate with their original design. The Intrepid Class was intended to rival if not best the Galaxy Class for combat prowess [ST:VOY DVD Features & Interviews] not to be a science ship, for example.

    Arguments regarding alternations necessary for game balance aside, the fact that players can actually choose a ship class means that they can pick their favourite profession and their favourite ship class regardless of each other. This also resolves any disagreements people may have with the professions the vessels have been purposed for, considering you can outfit them however you want.

    Such restrictions would likely cause more upset than solve any problems, not that any problems in need of solving actually come to mind.
    Jexsam wrote: »
    *skimmed entire thread*

    This.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    The main problem here is that when player expectations have been properly established, fundamental changes that mess with liberties previously and presently granted, comes at some traditional peril.

    The reaction to such a change can be quite dramatic, due to psychological factors that someone should map out one day, But sometimes ignorance is bliss, you might not want to know that you will go raving mad in a few years? :p

    ---
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    The idea of splitting ground and space skill points=like
    The idea of restricting ship clss at all=BAD

    We love to customise our characters and builds and this would limit severly these options. Not only is running a different ship type than your class viable but also alot of fun. Do not take away choice, please.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I don't have time to read this whoe thread yet, but I will, and plan to add more in the way of thoughts/suggestions... But I'll subscribe and start by saying that I'm strongly against restricting characters to any given ship type based on class, or anything else for that matter.
    Ok, so throughout the day I've read this thread. And I'm so very happy that the landslide majority of posters agree that restricting ship types to match class is a terrible idea. And it is. Please, Mr. Stahl, close this any any similar threads with a polite "Sorry to have even brought it up, we won't be doing this." and let it go, never to be spoke of again. :D

    Please Do Not Restrict Characters!
    I cannot properly express the depth of my loathing for the possibility of locking captains to ship type. Not in the English language, and especially not within the rules of the forum.
    /Quoted and Colored for Truth.

    One of the reasons I'm leveling alts is so I can try different combinations...

    Havelock, VA1: Tac/Cruiser (my first character, always has flown/will fly Cruisers)
    Pym, VA1: Sci/Escort (was Sci Vessel, until recently)
    Vogo, Capt1: Eng/Cruiser (destined for Cruiser, possibly D'Kyr)
    Shri, LtC5?: Eng/Escort
    Rachel, LtC4: Tac/Escort
    Greebo, Lt2: Tac/Lt.Cruiser (destined for Sci, I think)
    Sys 1101, Lt2: Sci/Lt.Cruiser (destined for Sci)
    Tu'rook, LG1: Eng/Carrier (likely switching to Battle Cruiser)
    Alira, LG1: Tac/BoP
    Esu, LtC10: Sci/BoP
    Koro, LtC3: Tac/BoP (next ship to be Raptor)

    The idea that we couldn't try out different ships, as we level is mind-boggling bad. I don't really see how it's confusing for new people either... They can choose whatever they want, if they're uncertain, the easy choice is to stick to their class, but don't make it required! Again, someday I hope to have one character of each class in each ship type.

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but limiting my ship types not only costs me fun, but it costs you money.

    Other topics in this thread:
    Splitting Space/Ground? Right now I think Blackavaar said it best up in post 143.

    Updating the skill tree: There's a lot that could be fixed there. I think to restrict ship types is bad, and variety is better. To that end I'm for the reduction of T5 Ship Captaining skills back to three basic Cruiser, Escort, SciVessel skills again.. Energy and Projectile flavors need to be equalized. It shouldn't cost me more to level up a plasma beam over a disruptor. Also Efficiency skills are all the same tier, the Performance skills should be likewise. There are other issues, but this is a start.

    Again: No to ship restrictions.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    This thread is as I predicted in my response to this month's Ask Cryptic.

    Don't go down this route. You're taking away choices that players have currently... we like those choices.

    Even Egypt will be in awe of our protest if you adopt this bad idea.

    If ship restrictions happen, the organic compost will surely impact the rotary cooling device.
    Hard.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I would say I can kinda see it in canon but I see no reason for it in game.

    I've played in Science ships since Lt. Cmdr even though I'm an engineer because I prefer their styles more.

    Maybe restricting it would be fine if there were another pair of options at Lt. as there are three at Lt. Cmdr. I would still prefer no restriction though.

    My personal preference would be to alter the structure of the XP system so that you get ground XP for ground missions and Space Xp for space missions. This would also extend the amount of time required to reach "Both" level caps and makes plenty of sense since someone who is in a ship all the time wouldn't have the strategic experience for a ground battle that someone that was on the ground most of the time would have.

    Since 2/3 of STO is space I can't imagine it would take that much to do this and could always have episodes which have two types of gameplay give a split amount of XP...

    Then again, if I could upgrade a ship so that once I got my favorite ship I could use it forever without punishment I'd ALMOST be willing to lose some freedom of choice til I hit say Captain...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    the only way i could see this being a real idea is if we can change our class during the leveling process, ie if we start as engineer then level a few switch to tactical level a few switch back to engineer. now the cool thing if this were to happen as you level as which ever class you are you gain those skills you would gain. (this would require a massive balance to al lthe cpatain ab ilities though)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I say (again) no to any restrictions
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Same here. I already have the 3 classes at VA. They all got there in their respective ships.

    I'm now enjoying leveling up toons in different class ships. I'm really enjoying my Tac in a Cruiser. If you take this replay-ablity from me.... you will be killing a TON of replay value.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Surprisingly I agree with the majority on this one. This was one thing a lot of people were worried about pre-beta, and were subsequently relieved to find out Tactical captains could captain Cruisers, and Science captains could captain Escorts. I'm all for the former suggestion of a page for ground skills and one for space skills, though.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    agree....

    and when i read the tid bit on sticking a certain class in a certain ship up till a certain rank i was miffed...but then i thought about it.

    while i do not agree to ship limitations, i think there should be a plus or minus to skills (inherent) based on the ship and your class.

    this is not unlike penalties imposed on say a thief class wearing heavy armor normally reserved for paladins or knights...or vice verse.

    yeah, i know. that is comparing a space game to a fantasy based game....but the ideas are very similar in nature.

    this then begs the question...should we be able to "skin" ships to our liking in order to stay within our captains role? or do we suffer with a ship class and look we are not fond of for better stats?

    i for one vote skins be open to alter the ships looks even more then what we have now. that way people can still enjoy the game with the class benefits. cause lets face it. many people change ship classes because of looks probably more then because of abilities...but i may be wrong....lol

    There shouldn't be any bonuses for taking like career path and ship type. They already exists in the Captain's Abilities which complement the bent of the ship types for BO skills. (i.e. an Eng Captain which have ability in Hull Repair,Strengthening Shields, and Enhancing Power Levels. Those go hand in hand with the stengths of a Cruiser).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Please, please, please, please NO.

    I don't like escorts all that much and I really hate the designs (up to Defiant) so this would be a serious blow for me and I WOULD NOT HAVE FUN playing the lower levels, mid levels, etc.

    The splitting space/ground skills sounds fab, but please let us play in whatever ship we want to. Do NOT consider going down that road!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I use Science Characters in Science Ships, Tac in Escorts and so on. Also I build for both ground and space. I just don't want it dictated to me how much I have to place in ground and how much I have to place in space. These are the very radical changes games make that always has and always will make me quit a game and never return.

    Tacs in Escorts and so on doesn't bother me, but don't dare dictate to me where I have to place my points. I'll be history and not only will I be history but I will be sure to get word out of how lame this game has become. Don't destroy a game when it has come so far in the right direction. Must you always take 5 steps back for every 1 step forward?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I agree with most of what has been said here.

    This type of restriction is a very very very very bad idea

    a very bad idea

    Bad...wow.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    K-Tar wrote:
    From the latest Ask Cryptic:

    "We are discussing both simple and radical changes that could be made to the skillpoint system, and we are still deliberating on exactly how we want to resolve the issue you point out. One popular idea is to break up skillpoints between ground and space so that you don't have to decide which region to focus on. Another radical idea is to restrict the ship classes you can fly to your captain's class until later levels. This would mean that if your captain was a Tactical officer, she could only fly escorts up until admiral ranks. This along with a restructuring of the space skillpoint tree could lead to some clearer skillpoint choices later on in ranks. Just an idea, nothing confirmed yet. I'm interested what you all would think of this."

    Sorry Dstahl, but that's the absolutely worst idea from you I ever read. Not only would it reduce the playable class combinations from 9 to 3 for most of the game (putting STO under every MMO I know of), it also would hurt the Star Trek feeling. You want to be like Kirk and fly a Constitution as a tactical officer? Wait till you're admiral and the Constitution is useless. You want to fly a Galaxy as a scientist like Picard did? Well, wait for your next promotion.. Engineer in an escort like Sisko? Become an admiral first. You want to play like Janeway? Have fun!

    Considering the other idea to divide skill points automatically between ground and space is not as bad, but simply not needed. If people want to focus on one area don't hinder them. All my characters have their specializations spread out and it works great, but part of the fun is to find a build that works for you. If people want to play without ground skills that's their right. They just shouldn't complain when they get their butts kicked.in the neglected area.

    The skill systems just needs TWO simple fixes.

    1) Let all weapon type skills cost the same. The weapons are mostly the same, and the skills all have the same effect. At the moment most people use the weapons with the cheapest skills.
    2) Reduce the number of T5 ship skills. We don't need 3 skills for each type. Make one for escorts/birds of prey, one for cruisers, one for science vessels and one for carriers.

    This would be sufficient to make me leave the game. Being shoehorned into a Galaxy class would be like being invited to an all expenses paid weekend with the Inquisition, as narrated by Edgar Allan Poe.

    Just no.
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