>>"This would mean that if your captain was a Tactical officer, she could only fly escorts up until admiral ranks. "
I don't like that idea. Certainly, none of my captains stuck to a single ship type until admiral. It would be even worse for a new player on their first character to lose the ability to experiment.
I do completely support splitting ground and space points into 2 separate pools, to eliminate the current zero-sum nature of allocating points.
I believe it was Stormshade who made the comment that one of Cryptics identifying characteristics is the amount of customization that your games provide. I've played tac/cruiser pretty much since Open Beta and would not have found the "restriction" of being forced into an escort enjoyable. Everyone has their "favorite" ship and putting players in the role of an engineer just so they can fly the "Enterprise" would not be a positive change for the game.
I think there can be improvements made to the skillpoint system, however I feel those improvements should be more about simplifying the skillpoint system, not restricting players in which ship they can use.
If you hate on the idea, then you are banned from canon arguments,
You don't chose what you want to fly in Starfleet unlike what have now. You're a Tac, Starfleet offers you a tac ship or you stay 2nd officer.
At VA or any "A" you should have some pull, before that you are a canon whipping boy.
*****
Disclaimer, idea sounds lame from a MMO point, but from "I want to be only a Captain", it sounds like you should learn to serve and be a lowly Captain.
No I don't like the idea but thought I should point out the double standards that seem to run rampant.
And that's why the scientific orientated Picard ended up commanding cruisers or the more Sisko (who said he'd only wanted to design starships) ended up commanding an escort....
Some days I swear they are actively trying to kill this game with a rusted spoon.
Stahl, this is a Stupid Idea, simply put.
Here is why. There are only 3 classes in this game. Eng, Sci and Tac. There are only 3 ship types in this game to go with that.
The combinations possible in this game, help keep it afloat. This game is otherwise incredibly shallow, in several regards, and this is the one facet of depth to the game. Furthermore, you will remove the ability to experiment between ship types. I personally went from every ship class on leveling my first char, getting an idea of the playstyles involved. (in pve and pvp. As the ques worked back then for lowbies)
And that's why the scientific orientated Picard ended up commanding cruisers or the more Sisko (who said he'd only wanted to design starships) ended up commanding an escort....
and kirk (tactical) in a cruiser. the only one that went with his reasoning was janeway.
But the part that worries me is "Another radical idea is to restrict the ship classes you can fly to your captain's class until later levels." I think this is a terrible idea. First the question was specifically asking about the VA experience, so the later levels clause will be in effect anyway. Second the starter ships is middle of the road by design, so which you want to fly initially is pretty much a cosmetic choice with just a little bit of special ability involved (and I haven't found the grappling hook isn't nearly as useful as an extra console). Third, you would be taking away people's choice and reversing explicit statements made (be very careful doing this again). Personally, my main is tactical and has always commanded cruiser class ships when given the choice, that mix of special abilities and ship characteristics fit my preferred play style. Please don't make me fit into some narrowly defined role until I am allowed to branch out to what I want to be (if I was starting today, of course).
At character creation you chose tac/eng/sci which is what you learned on the academy, your basic orientation so to speak.
After you get your own ship officialy, you get transfered into the Command branch.
And open up the skills, let us learn any skill we want, but make our orientation based skills cheaper, or the other more expensive.
Ditch the skill point cap, but instead make learning skills more amd more expensive as we raise them.
Ditch the specific captain skills that we get automaticly, let us learn and ear them through the skills we acually chose to learn as captains.
Ditch the multiple versions of the same skills, the 1,2 and 3 rnaks. make them one skill. and change the BO stations to give a bonus to skills used by the BOs so for exampel a beamoverload used on a ensign station is less effective then a beamoverload used on a comander station.
Make all stations universal. but require to have one of each branch on duty.
Add a helm station for all the fancy flying skills.
Rename to consoles to facilities, the name console just sounds wrong, armor console? rename them
Tactical, engineering and science facilities sound better to me.
and kirk (tactical) in a cruiser. the only one that went with his reasoning was janeway.
I wouldn't subscribe to that view. Janeway might have supposedly known alot about science but she was a militant, tactical tyrant on her ship. (and psychotic but that is a tangent) She was, most certainly a Tac.
I wouldn't subscribe to that view. Janeway might have supposedly known alot about science but she was a militant, tactical tyrant on her ship. (and psychotic but that is a tangent) She was, most certainly a Tac.
No, she was Sci. Before she wore Red, she wore Blue.
I wouldn't subscribe to that view. Janeway might have supposedly known alot about science but she was a militant, tactical tyrant on her ship. (and psychotic but that is a tangent) She was, most certainly a Tac.
i was going by the 1st episode when she states she was a science officer for paris' father. but yeah she was very tactical , i call hax!
Glad to see a thread on this topic. There have been some interesting discussions internally about the ship/class restrictions. Intrigued to see more of your input.
Could you give us some idea what problem the restrictions are intended to fix?
I was under the impression that the mix and match method was working nicely and am surprised there's any internal discussion about changing it.
Could you give us some idea what problem the restrictions are intended to fix?
I was under the impression that the mix and match method was working nicely and am surprised there's any internal discussion about changing it.
People used to complain that you couldn't train your main BO in lvl 3 skills because they were a different class, but I said then - and still say now - that you can't have it both ways.
If that's why they're changing it, they're trying to swat flies with bazookas.
1) Its too late to making sweeping changes like this, please don't make them, it will anger the player base.
2) I agree with the idea in principle and believe the game should have been like this since day 1, tac in an escort, eng in a cruiser, sci in a sci. Differences between each character makes them unique. As of right now basicaly every character regardless of class is the same with very small differences. I have always thought not restricitng classes to ships was odd. That being said, look my first point its too late to do this.
3) Never mind point 3, somehow I had always thought Kirk was a helmsman but a little reading and a little watching proves he was a tactical officer. I wonder where I got that crazy idea 25 years ago and what kept perpetuating it?
People used to complain that you couldn't train your main BO in lvl 3 skills because they were a different class, but I said then - and still say now - that you can't have it both ways.
If that's why they're changing it, they're trying to swat flies with bazookas.
no ones changing anything at the moment. they are discussing it. why i dont know, but nothing is confirmed.
1) Its too late to making sweeping changes like this, please don't make them, it will anger the player base.
2) I agree with the idea in principle and believe the game should have been like this since day 1, tac in an escort, eng in a cruiser, sci in a sci. Differences between each character makes them unique. As of right now basicaly every character regardless of class is the same with very small differences. I have always thought not restricitng classes to ships was odd. That being said, look my first point its too late to do this.
3) Where does this idea that Kirk is a tactical officer come from? I have always been under the impression that he was a helmsman.
1) agree
2) disagree wholeheartedly, as a Tac/Cruiser player since closed beta
3) Kirk's a tactical officer because that's what he was. Just because he was assigned to the helm doesn't mean he wasn't a tac.
1) Its too late to making sweeping changes like this, please don't make them, it will anger the player base.
2) I agree with the idea in principle and believe the game should have been like this since day 1, tac in an escort, eng in a cruiser, sci in a sci. Differences between each character makes them unique. As of right now basicaly every character regardless of class is the same with very small differences. I have always thought not restricitng classes to ships was odd. That being said, look my first point its too late to do this.
3) Where does this idea that Kirk is a tactical officer come from? I have always been under the impression that he was a helmsman.
3) well if something needed fixed he'd call scotty, if someone was ill he'd call mcoy, if something needed science he'd call spock but if someone needed a beatdown he was your man...
1) Let all weapon type skills cost the same. The weapons are mostly the same, and the skills all have the same effect. At the moment most people use the weapons with the cheapest skills.
2) Reduce the number of T5 ship skills. We don't need 3 skills for each type. Make one for escorts/birds of prey, one for cruisers, one for science vessels and one for carriers.
Completely agree with item 1. I also agree that pigeonholing each class into their supposed ship class is not the way to go.
Instead of what you suggested for item 2, I would go so far as to say to eliminate the different ship classes from the skill tree entirely. Just make 1 that is for "ship command" or something.
It simply doesn't make sense that a captain has to specialize in a specific kind of ship. Kirk, Picard, Janeway, Sisko or Archer could captain any class of ship you put them in. Trek canon bears this out. Heck, Kirk even commanded a Klingon Bird of Prey! Granted, he was Kirk and purely awesome, but that is beside the point...
I will admit that since the option is there half of my characters are of one class using a ship of another class.
But I stand by my statement, differences are what make things unique. Its why i am against Feds having carriers or Klingons having diplomacy as an example.
3) well if something needed fixed he'd call scotty, if someone was ill he'd call mcoy, if something needed science he'd call spock but if someone needed a beatdown he was your man...
Actually, restriciting ships to their class would have been a good idea at launch I think. It would have made things more streamlined and easier to understand. People wouldn't be terribly upset over one thing or the other... as much.
But as it stands, people are puchasing C-store points on a single alt, buying numerous ships to be activated on all accounts. Plus people are now used to being able to captain any ship...., if cryptic was wise they would not fix what is not broke.
This is such a horrible idea I don't even know where to begin. I love flying Escorts as Engineers to use Rotate Shield Frequency and Miracle Worker to make up for the glass hull and paper shields. I love flying Cruisers as a Tactical officer and using Attack Pattern Alpha to come about for a torpedo salvo. I really don't see any benefit of this idea, unless the plan is to use the heat generated on the forums as a renewable energy source.
All that being said, since basically no players are in favor of this idea and I can't see any upside while the downside is glaringly obvious, I doubt this is going to come to pass. Even so, I'll rest a little easier once I see this idea is officially dead.
2) I agree with the idea in principle and believe the game should have been like this since day 1, tac in an escort, eng in a cruiser, sci in a sci. Differences between each character makes them unique. As of right now basicaly every character regardless of class is the same with very small differences. I have always thought not restricitng classes to ships was odd.
That doesn't fit the Trek genre though. If you were to use this pigeonholing of class to ship, Sisko should have been commanding the Enterprise while Picard and Janeway fought over Voyager and Kirk captained the Defiant.
What the game currently allows is variety and that IMO is a good thing.
i think we have all universally agree from this thread that career/ship binding is not a good one and no one would like it. even at launch i would have found this idea to be too restrictive. certainly not a year or so in. so i think there is zero chance of this happening. the nerd rage if they did would eclipse anything ever seen on the forums.
the splitting of the skill points to ground and space still seems a bit more divided.
People used to complain that you couldn't train your main BO in lvl 3 skills because they were a different class, but I said then - and still say now - that you can't have it both ways.
If that's why they're changing it, they're trying to swat flies with bazookas.
Wasn't that whole argument why the made bridge officers tradeable?
I though that was pretty much a solved problem.
Restricting character ship choice based on class wouldn't completely solve it either. The Nebula has a LtC engineering slot yet my Sci can't train any level 3 engineer powers, the Excelsior has a Ltc tactical slot yet my engineer can't train level 3 tactical powers.
The BoP is completely universal. No matter what you choose as your class you'll end up with officers you can't train in powers you could conceivably use.
People used to complain that you couldn't train your main BO in lvl 3 skills because they were a different class, but I said then - and still say now - that you can't have it both ways.
If that's why they're changing it, they're trying to swat flies with bazookas.
You know, a thought just made me laugh. Is this cryptic's way of trying to punish Fleets for you know having friends?
This is a laughably bad idea, as it even punishes people for actually participating in social aspects of an MMO. Might as well kiss the idea of training boffs for your friends good bye too, while they are at it.
Actually, restriciting ships to their class would have been a good idea at launch I think. It would have made things more streamlined and easier to understand. People wouldn't be terribly upset over one thing or the other... as much.
But as it stands, people are puchasing C-store points on a single alt, buying numerous ships to be activated on all accounts. Plus people are now used to being able to captain any ship...., if cryptic was wise they would not fix what is not broke.
your first point is purely speculation. there is no way to know if it would have been easier to understand. also people will always find some thing to get terribly upset over. in my opinion i disagree with your assessment. each to there own.
i agree if cryptic is wise they will leave this alone as regardless of how we think it would have gone at launch just about everyone agrees this is bad now.
Comments
NO seperation of skillpoints if someoen wants to fcus space let him
Problem solved.
I don't like that idea. Certainly, none of my captains stuck to a single ship type until admiral. It would be even worse for a new player on their first character to lose the ability to experiment.
I do completely support splitting ground and space points into 2 separate pools, to eliminate the current zero-sum nature of allocating points.
I think there can be improvements made to the skillpoint system, however I feel those improvements should be more about simplifying the skillpoint system, not restricting players in which ship they can use.
Yeah, because the reasons we can't do that haven't been discussed to death.
And that's why the scientific orientated Picard ended up commanding cruisers or the more Sisko (who said he'd only wanted to design starships) ended up commanding an escort....
Stahl, this is a Stupid Idea, simply put.
Here is why. There are only 3 classes in this game. Eng, Sci and Tac. There are only 3 ship types in this game to go with that.
The combinations possible in this game, help keep it afloat. This game is otherwise incredibly shallow, in several regards, and this is the one facet of depth to the game. Furthermore, you will remove the ability to experiment between ship types. I personally went from every ship class on leveling my first char, getting an idea of the playstyles involved. (in pve and pvp. As the ques worked back then for lowbies)
It's a pointless restriction.
and kirk (tactical) in a cruiser. the only one that went with his reasoning was janeway.
I would rather see some thing like this:
At character creation you chose tac/eng/sci which is what you learned on the academy, your basic orientation so to speak.
After you get your own ship officialy, you get transfered into the Command branch.
And open up the skills, let us learn any skill we want, but make our orientation based skills cheaper, or the other more expensive.
Ditch the skill point cap, but instead make learning skills more amd more expensive as we raise them.
Ditch the specific captain skills that we get automaticly, let us learn and ear them through the skills we acually chose to learn as captains.
Ditch the multiple versions of the same skills, the 1,2 and 3 rnaks. make them one skill. and change the BO stations to give a bonus to skills used by the BOs so for exampel a beamoverload used on a ensign station is less effective then a beamoverload used on a comander station.
Make all stations universal. but require to have one of each branch on duty.
Add a helm station for all the fancy flying skills.
Rename to consoles to facilities, the name console just sounds wrong, armor console? rename them
Tactical, engineering and science facilities sound better to me.
I wouldn't subscribe to that view. Janeway might have supposedly known alot about science but she was a militant, tactical tyrant on her ship. (and psychotic but that is a tangent) She was, most certainly a Tac.
No, she was Sci. Before she wore Red, she wore Blue.
i was going by the 1st episode when she states she was a science officer for paris' father. but yeah she was very tactical , i call hax!
Could you give us some idea what problem the restrictions are intended to fix?
I was under the impression that the mix and match method was working nicely and am surprised there's any internal discussion about changing it.
People used to complain that you couldn't train your main BO in lvl 3 skills because they were a different class, but I said then - and still say now - that you can't have it both ways.
If that's why they're changing it, they're trying to swat flies with bazookas.
1) Its too late to making sweeping changes like this, please don't make them, it will anger the player base.
2) I agree with the idea in principle and believe the game should have been like this since day 1, tac in an escort, eng in a cruiser, sci in a sci. Differences between each character makes them unique. As of right now basicaly every character regardless of class is the same with very small differences. I have always thought not restricitng classes to ships was odd. That being said, look my first point its too late to do this.
3) Never mind point 3, somehow I had always thought Kirk was a helmsman but a little reading and a little watching proves he was a tactical officer. I wonder where I got that crazy idea 25 years ago and what kept perpetuating it?
no ones changing anything at the moment. they are discussing it. why i dont know, but nothing is confirmed.
1) agree
2) disagree wholeheartedly, as a Tac/Cruiser player since closed beta
3) Kirk's a tactical officer because that's what he was. Just because he was assigned to the helm doesn't mean he wasn't a tac.
3) well if something needed fixed he'd call scotty, if someone was ill he'd call mcoy, if something needed science he'd call spock but if someone needed a beatdown he was your man...
Completely agree with item 1. I also agree that pigeonholing each class into their supposed ship class is not the way to go.
Instead of what you suggested for item 2, I would go so far as to say to eliminate the different ship classes from the skill tree entirely. Just make 1 that is for "ship command" or something.
It simply doesn't make sense that a captain has to specialize in a specific kind of ship. Kirk, Picard, Janeway, Sisko or Archer could captain any class of ship you put them in. Trek canon bears this out. Heck, Kirk even commanded a Klingon Bird of Prey! Granted, he was Kirk and purely awesome, but that is beside the point...
I will admit that since the option is there half of my characters are of one class using a ship of another class.
But I stand by my statement, differences are what make things unique. Its why i am against Feds having carriers or Klingons having diplomacy as an example.
Actually, restriciting ships to their class would have been a good idea at launch I think. It would have made things more streamlined and easier to understand. People wouldn't be terribly upset over one thing or the other... as much.
But as it stands, people are puchasing C-store points on a single alt, buying numerous ships to be activated on all accounts. Plus people are now used to being able to captain any ship...., if cryptic was wise they would not fix what is not broke.
All that being said, since basically no players are in favor of this idea and I can't see any upside while the downside is glaringly obvious, I doubt this is going to come to pass. Even so, I'll rest a little easier once I see this idea is officially dead.
That doesn't fit the Trek genre though. If you were to use this pigeonholing of class to ship, Sisko should have been commanding the Enterprise while Picard and Janeway fought over Voyager and Kirk captained the Defiant.
What the game currently allows is variety and that IMO is a good thing.
the splitting of the skill points to ground and space still seems a bit more divided.
Wasn't that whole argument why the made bridge officers tradeable?
I though that was pretty much a solved problem.
Restricting character ship choice based on class wouldn't completely solve it either. The Nebula has a LtC engineering slot yet my Sci can't train any level 3 engineer powers, the Excelsior has a Ltc tactical slot yet my engineer can't train level 3 tactical powers.
The BoP is completely universal. No matter what you choose as your class you'll end up with officers you can't train in powers you could conceivably use.
I suspect there's a different reason.
You know, a thought just made me laugh. Is this cryptic's way of trying to punish Fleets for you know having friends?
This is a laughably bad idea, as it even punishes people for actually participating in social aspects of an MMO. Might as well kiss the idea of training boffs for your friends good bye too, while they are at it.
your first point is purely speculation. there is no way to know if it would have been easier to understand. also people will always find some thing to get terribly upset over. in my opinion i disagree with your assessment. each to there own.
i agree if cryptic is wise they will leave this alone as regardless of how we think it would have gone at launch just about everyone agrees this is bad now.