They all have Tactical skills due to the Command division, which is more or less the Fourth Branch in the Federation hierachry. (Engineer, Science, Tactical).
Well, presumably they would all go to command school before getting an actual command, regardless of their initial division.
I would wager that the vast majority while leveling their first character do not get ships outside their class anyway. But the freedom to is great to have, and once a person is familiar with things I would also wager that their subsequent characters do have their toes in several ponds.
You have hit the nail on the head. This game needs MORE options NOT less. Ship restriction is an terrible idea.
I agree restricting players to the classs of ship associated with thier branch of service is a very bad idea. My first character is a Tac she's gone through sci to RALF then escort, cruiser escort cruiser and back t oescort again. I'd have gotten frustrated a long time ago and might not have stuck around, at the time I didn't know hwow t o fly an escort effectively and found the mdifficult pluse I really wanted an Intrepid
all my other characters are leveling as purists and will probably stay that way , but not having the choices would be a detriment to the game.
Instead I think Cryptic shoudl think aobut giving us more choices like maybe a secondary specialty system which would really make sense. As has been stated in this thread every captain has had a secondary specialization.
Picard was a scientist but he was also a helmsman (as wel las a diplomat)
Janeway was a scientist but had definate tactical skills arguably necessary for command
Sisko Engineer again with definate tactical skills you could even say that tactical was his primary
Really don't like the class restrictions. If I'm a Vice Admiral, I don't want to have to keep respec'ing just to switch from Fleet Escort to Retrofit!!!
I can't support the idea of locking ship types to class.
I could support the idea of a semi-universal station on every ship that's bound to your class, but even that I'm not thrilled with. It would bring the stations on the t1 ships up to 4, which means there would only be one effective selection of BOs until you hit LtCmdr.
EDIT: I'd sooner support a dual-classing concept. Though, I've no idea how that would actually work out. It would mesh more consistently with the captains we're presented with.
Kirk as a Tac/Eng, Picard as a Sci/Tac, Sisko as a Eng/Tac, Janeway as a Sci/Eng, and Archer as an Eng/Sci...
I can't support the idea of locking ship types to class.
I could support the idea of a semi-universal station on every ship that's bound to your class, but even that I'm not thrilled with. It would bring the stations on the t1 ships up to 4, which means there would only be one effective selection of BOs until you hit LtCmdr.
EDIT: I'd sooner support a dual-classing concept. Though, I've no idea how that would actually work out. It would mesh more consistently with the captains we're presented with.
Kirk as a Tac/Eng, Picard as a Sci/Tac, Sisko as a Eng/Tac, Janeway as a Sci/Eng, and Archer as an Eng/Sci...
Now THAT (multi-classing) is an idea I could support, but it's a pretty radical change and the whole kit system would need to be redesigned or replaced with something else. It would also play merry chaos with optional objectives in the newer missions.
I can't support the idea of locking ship types to class.
I could support the idea of a semi-universal station on every ship that's bound to your class, but even that I'm not thrilled with. It would bring the stations on the t1 ships up to 4, which means there would only be one effective selection of BOs until you hit LtCmdr.
EDIT: I'd sooner support a dual-classing concept. Though, I've no idea how that would actually work out. It would mesh more consistently with the captains we're presented with.
Kirk as a Tac/Eng, Picard as a Sci/Tac, Sisko as a Eng/Tac, Janeway as a Sci/Eng, and Archer as an Eng/Sci...
I can't support the idea of locking ship types to class.
I could support the idea of a semi-universal station on every ship that's bound to your class, but even that I'm not thrilled with. It would bring the stations on the t1 ships up to 4, which means there would only be one effective selection of BOs until you hit LtCmdr.
EDIT: I'd sooner support a dual-classing concept. Though, I've no idea how that would actually work out. It would mesh more consistently with the captains we're presented with.
Kirk as a Tac/Eng, Picard as a Sci/Tac, Sisko as a Eng/Tac, Janeway as a Sci/Eng, and Archer as an Eng/Sci...
You already have a dual classing option as it is for now in space.
Just using some Fantasy RPG (MMO) analogy
Put a Engi in a Escort and you got a Druid.
Put a Sci in a Cruiser and you got the Paladin.
Put a Tactical in a Sci Ship and you got a Shadow Mage.
Put a Sci in a Escort and you got a Rogue.
etc., etc., etc.
On the other hand i don't see why everyone is just talking about restriction of choice where there is a way stronger argument not to restrict the choice of ships.
The problem with reducing the option of ship classes to chose from lies not in a basic subset of ship for a class it is more the fact that there is still a unbalance in needed skillpoints to maximise a ships potential.
To max out primary powers of a escort i do have to spec in T2 and T3 tactical skills plus a subset of Engineering and maybe some sci skills overall pretty cheap and lot's of skillpoint's to spare where ever i like.
For a Cruiser it is about T2 to T4 on some occasions also T5 plus some tactical skills and maybe some sci so more or less you got enough point to spec as you see fit.
But if you go for a sci vessel to max out your powers you have to spend points in T3 and T5 powers plus a decent Engineering subset of skills and a basic tactical.
So if there should be a forced Ship subclass restriction at all the space Skillpoint tree would have to restructured alot before coming up to balance.
As for STO captain classes, I think they're pretty lame at the moment. And of course the BO abilites, well, most of them should be tied to ship items, not to Bridge Officers. I could see bridge officers improving item abilities, but as it is now, with items improving bridge officer abilities, it's kind of like putting the cart in front of the horse.
Take Tractor beams for example: I'm assuming every ship has a tractor beam installed, it just never gets used. But if you train your BO in some science skills they can catch ships with it! But why science? Tractor beams, in every episode they were used in TNG, DS9 and VOY, were maintained by Engineers. While the mechanism that allows them to work is obviously applied science, their function is totally engineering!
I could go on for days about this, but seriously, abilities being tied to bridge officers is pretty silly when you think about it critically.
Absolutly right, i think there should be a MAJOR overhaul in Skill and BO funktionality, i know STO is just a game, but things have to make sense here too.
Really don't like the class restrictions. If I'm a Vice Admiral, I don't want to have to keep respec'ing just to switch from Fleet Escort to Retrofit!!!
Me too. I'm in support of less, rather than more restrictions.
As for STO captain classes, I think they're pretty lame at the moment. And of course the BO abilites, well, most of them should be tied to ship items, not to Bridge Officers. I could see bridge officers improving item abilities, but as it is now, with items improving bridge officer abilities, it's kind of like putting the cart in front of the horse.
Take Tractor beams for example: I'm assuming every ship has a tractor beam installed, it just never gets used. But if you train your BO in some science skills they can catch ships with it! But why science? Tractor beams, in every episode they were used in TNG, DS9 and VOY, were maintained by Engineers. While the mechanism that allows them to work is obviously applied science, their function is totally engineering!
I could go on for days about this, but seriously, abilities being tied to bridge officers is pretty silly when you think about it critically.
Jarnin, you're spot-on.
- Captain's classes are moronic, IMO. In Starfleet, a Captain is a Captain is a Captain. You don't have 'Tactical Captains' who are career soldiers, or 'Engineering Captains' who act as mechanics. Therfore, it'd be so much more liberating to SCRAP classes entirely, and just give everyone a nice wide pool of multi-discipline skills. Those who want to focus on science/research skills can, as can those who want something more combat-orientated or tech-focussed. Or, alternatively, you can just plough skills into 'starship command'-related skills, rather than spreading out into different areas.
In other words, if you want to be a 'Jadzia Dax' (scientist who's also good in melee combat), or a 'Tom Paris' (a skilled pilot who's also a field medic, plus a dab hand at engineering to boot), you can - just pick whatever skills you want your character to have training in.
- Tie BOff 'powers' to ships - it's not like a tractor beam is carried in an Ensign's back pocket! Instead, let's lose the current 'tac/eng/sci' slots, and have PROPER stations, like the 'helm', 'weapons console', 'ops', etc.
- Similarly, we should have proper BOff skill trees for the different professions, like 'Flight Controller', 'Operations Officer', etc. so we can have our BOffs as working, functional BRIDGE OFFICERS. Assigining cosmetic titles like 'First Officer' isn't enough - we need true starship bridge crews for this to feel truly like STAR TREK.
- Drop the arbitrary classes for starships, too - since when is the Sovereign-class, an anti-Borg battleship, a primarily 'engineering' vessel? Or the Luna class - it's multi-purpose, like most starships, not a mainly 'science' vessel.
Bottom line: Like Captains, 99% of starships are capable of serving in ANY role equally well (obvious exceptions being the Defiant/Oberth classes - and even then, they weren't completely tied to one specialisation).
As has been mentioned before, anything that gives players MORE choice and freedom is only a GOOD thing - particularly when these totally arbitrary restrictions also serve to make this game play and feel LESS like STAR TREK.
I'd like to see ship-specific skills beyond the LC tier (cruiser, science, escort) dropped altogether. I'd rather have a group of accolades for each ship class that provides escalating bonuses based on your actual experience and gameplay with the class.
A better alternative to accolades could be something similar to LOTRO's Legendary Items system where items gain experience and improve alongside characters. Right now my ship is a hollow "vessel" to house components, totally interchangeable if I have the currency to buy another. Something like legendary items would make each individual ship itself intrinsically customized and valuable. This could also be another way to extend the life of lower-tier ships.
Let ships gain experience alongside captains. Use something like the existing skills UI so players can spend experience for the ship like they do now for their characters. Break down the improvements from current ship-specific skills into separate skill lines, letting captains prioritize effects. Either skills or general experience level could unlock extra consoles and bridge stations on lower-tier ships, extending the ship's service life considerably. The ship itself becomes a full-fledged player character.
A respec should only be necessary to correct a major mistake with a build or to deal with fundamental changes to the game mechanics. Changing ships should not be such a life-altering event, nor should it be so easy to rejuggle points to go from 0 to 9 with a single mouseclick.
Instead of ship specific skills, i would rather see play style specific skills. These skills would improve aspects of any ship.
Example Skills:
Shield Efficiency
Hull Strengthening
Combat Turning
Engine Overdrive (speed)
Axillary Systems
The skills would obviously affect their primary focus and possibly have other affects to ship stats or BO abilities.
The idea is that no matter what ship you use, your captain may be tooled to act more as a tank, maneuverable striker, etc. However you are comfortable playing, each ship will be adapted to suit that style (some better than others).
Now THAT (multi-classing) is an idea I could support, but it's a pretty radical change and the whole kit system would need to be redesigned or replaced with something else. It would also play merry chaos with optional objectives in the newer missions.
As someone with way too many mk X kits, the kit system could use an overhaul of some sort. That said, honestly it would just be three new professions for kits. The Infiltrator (Tac/Eng) (Yes, I played too much ME1), the Combat Medic (Tac/Sci)(I'm not really sold on this name), and the Analyst or Technical Specialist (Sci/Eng).
Tac/Eng kits: Infiltrator, Field Technician, Saboteur.
Tac/Sci kits: Combat Medic, Field Analyst, Agent, Covert Researcher.
Sci/Eng kits: Technical Specialist, Analyst, Prototype Field Tester.
As someone with way too many mk X kits, the kit system could use an overhaul of some sort. That said, honestly it would just be three new professions for kits. The Infiltrator (Tac/Eng) (Yes, I played too much ME1), the Combat Medic (Tac/Sci)(I'm not really sold on this name), and the Analyst or Technical Specialist (Sci/Eng).
Tac/Eng kits: Infiltrator, Field Technician, Saboteur.
Tac/Sci kits: Combat Medic, Field Analyst, Agent, Covert Researcher.
Sci/Eng kits: Technical Specialist, Analyst, Prototype Field Tester.
Random ideas...
I like those ideas. You know why? Because it fits very well with what I imagine Romulan kits ought to be like (y'know, when we eventually get a Romulan faction...)
I suspect that providing some form of "multi-class" might be a better alternative than a total overhaul of the Captain Skills system at this point. Throwing the whole Skill system wide open would be like opening Pandora's Box and I think it could create more problems than it would solve at this late date.
I think a "Career Change" mechanic might work better.
Say that at certain Ranks (Lt. Cmdr., Cmdr., Captain) a character gets the option to do a "Career Change". This would allow that character to keep the skills and abilities from his previous career, but freezes them at their current level. Instead, the character can now spend skill points and gains abilities in his new specialization. The character only gets the option to do this once during his career (or once during a respec).
For example, a Science officer who converted to Engineering at Commander would have all of the Science abilities and skills he had at Lt. Cmdr 10, but at Commander 1 is now able to spend those points in Engineering skills and would now gain the Engineering abilties associated with his level going forward. He would not gain the lower-level Engineering abilties he passed by.
At the same time, the kit system could be overhauled into the building of custom kits that would allow the player to select which powers a kit has based on level. This would have the side benefit of giving Single-Career characters a lot more flexibility and the ability to tailor a kit to the skills they've specialized in.
So if, for example, you have an Engineer who does a Career Change to Science at Lt. Cmdr, the custom kit could have only those Engineering powers at a level which would be available to an Engineering Lieutenant, and the Science powers would be those available to a Lt. Cmdr.
This would allow a high degree of flexibility without ignoring the skill 'penalty' that would be associated with a career change (you can either go back and 'fill-in' low tier skills, or ignore them and spend points on the high-tier skills.) This would also force Dual-Career characters to be very specialized to be effective, especially Science officers.
I like those ideas. You know why? Because it fits very well with what I imagine Romulan kits ought to be like (y'know, when we eventually get a Romulan faction...)
I suspect that providing some form of "multi-class" might be a better alternative than a total overhaul of the Captain Skills system at this point. Throwing the whole Skill system wide open would be like opening Pandora's Box and I think it could create more problems than it would solve at this late date.
I think a "Career Change" mechanic might work better.
Say that at certain Ranks (Lt. Cmdr., Cmdr., Captain) a character gets the option to do a "Career Change". This would allow that character to keep the skills and abilities from his previous career, but freezes them at their current level. Instead, the character can now spend skill points and gains abilities in his new specialization. The character only gets the option to do this once during his career (or once during a respec).
For example, a Science officer who converted to Engineering at Commander would have all of the Science abilities and skills he had at Lt. Cmdr 10, but at Commander 1 is now able to spend those points in Engineering skills and would now gain the Engineering abilties associated with his level going forward. He would not gain the lower-level Engineering abilties he passed by.
At the same time, the kit system could be overhauled into the building of custom kits that would allow the player to select which powers a kit has based on level. This would have the side benefit of giving Single-Career characters a lot more flexibility and the ability to tailor a kit to the skills they've specialized in.
So if, for example, you have an Engineer who does a Career Change to Science at Lt. Cmdr, the custom kit could have only those Engineering powers at a level which would be available to an Engineering Lieutenant, and the Science powers would be those available to a Lt. Cmdr.
This would allow a high degree of flexibility without ignoring the skill 'penalty' that would be associated with a career change (you can either go back and 'fill-in' low tier skills, or ignore them and spend points on the high-tier skills.) This would also force Dual-Career characters to be very specialized to be effective, especially Science officers.
I don't like it. It's another step along the slippery slope to everyone being the same. You want players to have to CHOOSE an area of specialization so there's a need to work with others. If everyone can do everything, you won't need anyone else. Besides, it's more realistic that way. If I graduate with a degree in Astrophysics, I can't just change my mind and make it a degree in Computer Engineering, after all.
Comments
Well, presumably they would all go to command school before getting an actual command, regardless of their initial division.
You have hit the nail on the head. This game needs MORE options NOT less. Ship restriction is an terrible idea.
Just like his father, even though 'Dad' wasn't in Starfleet.
all my other characters are leveling as purists and will probably stay that way , but not having the choices would be a detriment to the game.
Instead I think Cryptic shoudl think aobut giving us more choices like maybe a secondary specialty system which would really make sense. As has been stated in this thread every captain has had a secondary specialization.
Picard was a scientist but he was also a helmsman (as wel las a diplomat)
Janeway was a scientist but had definate tactical skills arguably necessary for command
Sisko Engineer again with definate tactical skills you could even say that tactical was his primary
the list goes on.
I could support the idea of a semi-universal station on every ship that's bound to your class, but even that I'm not thrilled with. It would bring the stations on the t1 ships up to 4, which means there would only be one effective selection of BOs until you hit LtCmdr.
EDIT: I'd sooner support a dual-classing concept. Though, I've no idea how that would actually work out. It would mesh more consistently with the captains we're presented with.
Kirk as a Tac/Eng, Picard as a Sci/Tac, Sisko as a Eng/Tac, Janeway as a Sci/Eng, and Archer as an Eng/Sci...
Now THAT (multi-classing) is an idea I could support, but it's a pretty radical change and the whole kit system would need to be redesigned or replaced with something else. It would also play merry chaos with optional objectives in the newer missions.
I really dig this idea.
You already have a dual classing option as it is for now in space.
Just using some Fantasy RPG (MMO) analogy
Put a Engi in a Escort and you got a Druid.
Put a Sci in a Cruiser and you got the Paladin.
Put a Tactical in a Sci Ship and you got a Shadow Mage.
Put a Sci in a Escort and you got a Rogue.
etc., etc., etc.
On the other hand i don't see why everyone is just talking about restriction of choice where there is a way stronger argument not to restrict the choice of ships.
The problem with reducing the option of ship classes to chose from lies not in a basic subset of ship for a class it is more the fact that there is still a unbalance in needed skillpoints to maximise a ships potential.
To max out primary powers of a escort i do have to spec in T2 and T3 tactical skills plus a subset of Engineering and maybe some sci skills overall pretty cheap and lot's of skillpoint's to spare where ever i like.
For a Cruiser it is about T2 to T4 on some occasions also T5 plus some tactical skills and maybe some sci so more or less you got enough point to spec as you see fit.
But if you go for a sci vessel to max out your powers you have to spend points in T3 and T5 powers plus a decent Engineering subset of skills and a basic tactical.
So if there should be a forced Ship subclass restriction at all the space Skillpoint tree would have to restructured alot before coming up to balance.
Thank you for reading.
Me too. I'm in support of less, rather than more restrictions.
Jarnin, you're spot-on.
- Captain's classes are moronic, IMO. In Starfleet, a Captain is a Captain is a Captain. You don't have 'Tactical Captains' who are career soldiers, or 'Engineering Captains' who act as mechanics. Therfore, it'd be so much more liberating to SCRAP classes entirely, and just give everyone a nice wide pool of multi-discipline skills. Those who want to focus on science/research skills can, as can those who want something more combat-orientated or tech-focussed. Or, alternatively, you can just plough skills into 'starship command'-related skills, rather than spreading out into different areas.
In other words, if you want to be a 'Jadzia Dax' (scientist who's also good in melee combat), or a 'Tom Paris' (a skilled pilot who's also a field medic, plus a dab hand at engineering to boot), you can - just pick whatever skills you want your character to have training in.
- Tie BOff 'powers' to ships - it's not like a tractor beam is carried in an Ensign's back pocket! Instead, let's lose the current 'tac/eng/sci' slots, and have PROPER stations, like the 'helm', 'weapons console', 'ops', etc.
- Similarly, we should have proper BOff skill trees for the different professions, like 'Flight Controller', 'Operations Officer', etc. so we can have our BOffs as working, functional BRIDGE OFFICERS. Assigining cosmetic titles like 'First Officer' isn't enough - we need true starship bridge crews for this to feel truly like STAR TREK.
- Drop the arbitrary classes for starships, too - since when is the Sovereign-class, an anti-Borg battleship, a primarily 'engineering' vessel? Or the Luna class - it's multi-purpose, like most starships, not a mainly 'science' vessel.
Bottom line: Like Captains, 99% of starships are capable of serving in ANY role equally well (obvious exceptions being the Defiant/Oberth classes - and even then, they weren't completely tied to one specialisation).
As has been mentioned before, anything that gives players MORE choice and freedom is only a GOOD thing - particularly when these totally arbitrary restrictions also serve to make this game play and feel LESS like STAR TREK.
A better alternative to accolades could be something similar to LOTRO's Legendary Items system where items gain experience and improve alongside characters. Right now my ship is a hollow "vessel" to house components, totally interchangeable if I have the currency to buy another. Something like legendary items would make each individual ship itself intrinsically customized and valuable. This could also be another way to extend the life of lower-tier ships.
Let ships gain experience alongside captains. Use something like the existing skills UI so players can spend experience for the ship like they do now for their characters. Break down the improvements from current ship-specific skills into separate skill lines, letting captains prioritize effects. Either skills or general experience level could unlock extra consoles and bridge stations on lower-tier ships, extending the ship's service life considerably. The ship itself becomes a full-fledged player character.
A respec should only be necessary to correct a major mistake with a build or to deal with fundamental changes to the game mechanics. Changing ships should not be such a life-altering event, nor should it be so easy to rejuggle points to go from 0 to 9 with a single mouseclick.
Example Skills:
Shield Efficiency
Hull Strengthening
Combat Turning
Engine Overdrive (speed)
Axillary Systems
The skills would obviously affect their primary focus and possibly have other affects to ship stats or BO abilities.
The idea is that no matter what ship you use, your captain may be tooled to act more as a tank, maneuverable striker, etc. However you are comfortable playing, each ship will be adapted to suit that style (some better than others).
As someone with way too many mk X kits, the kit system could use an overhaul of some sort. That said, honestly it would just be three new professions for kits. The Infiltrator (Tac/Eng) (Yes, I played too much ME1), the Combat Medic (Tac/Sci)(I'm not really sold on this name), and the Analyst or Technical Specialist (Sci/Eng).
Tac/Eng kits: Infiltrator, Field Technician, Saboteur.
Tac/Sci kits: Combat Medic, Field Analyst, Agent, Covert Researcher.
Sci/Eng kits: Technical Specialist, Analyst, Prototype Field Tester.
Random ideas...
I like those ideas. You know why? Because it fits very well with what I imagine Romulan kits ought to be like (y'know, when we eventually get a Romulan faction...)
I suspect that providing some form of "multi-class" might be a better alternative than a total overhaul of the Captain Skills system at this point. Throwing the whole Skill system wide open would be like opening Pandora's Box and I think it could create more problems than it would solve at this late date.
I think a "Career Change" mechanic might work better.
Say that at certain Ranks (Lt. Cmdr., Cmdr., Captain) a character gets the option to do a "Career Change". This would allow that character to keep the skills and abilities from his previous career, but freezes them at their current level. Instead, the character can now spend skill points and gains abilities in his new specialization. The character only gets the option to do this once during his career (or once during a respec).
For example, a Science officer who converted to Engineering at Commander would have all of the Science abilities and skills he had at Lt. Cmdr 10, but at Commander 1 is now able to spend those points in Engineering skills and would now gain the Engineering abilties associated with his level going forward. He would not gain the lower-level Engineering abilties he passed by.
At the same time, the kit system could be overhauled into the building of custom kits that would allow the player to select which powers a kit has based on level. This would have the side benefit of giving Single-Career characters a lot more flexibility and the ability to tailor a kit to the skills they've specialized in.
So if, for example, you have an Engineer who does a Career Change to Science at Lt. Cmdr, the custom kit could have only those Engineering powers at a level which would be available to an Engineering Lieutenant, and the Science powers would be those available to a Lt. Cmdr.
This would allow a high degree of flexibility without ignoring the skill 'penalty' that would be associated with a career change (you can either go back and 'fill-in' low tier skills, or ignore them and spend points on the high-tier skills.) This would also force Dual-Career characters to be very specialized to be effective, especially Science officers.
I don't like it. It's another step along the slippery slope to everyone being the same. You want players to have to CHOOSE an area of specialization so there's a need to work with others. If everyone can do everything, you won't need anyone else. Besides, it's more realistic that way. If I graduate with a degree in Astrophysics, I can't just change my mind and make it a degree in Computer Engineering, after all.