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Battlement Stone or Astral Stone (spr)

igoplopigoplop Posts: 124 Arc User
edited June 2015 in General Discussion
Which one would be better for an "end game" player?
Assuming all the gear has deity/josd and nuema positions are maxed to 6.
Post edited by igoplop on

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  • tek1nigtek1nig Posts: 793 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    igoplop wrote: »
    Which one would be better for an "end game" player?
    Assuming all the gear has deity/josd and nuema positions are maxed to 6.

    Nuema Max is 7 Currently - But I would side with the spirit stones - Although quite expensive on my server which it shouldn't be. But you'd need quote a few to get a goal of 100 extra spirit from the ornaments. That is the equivalent of what ? 10 Defense and Attack levels ? So that is better than a possible "maxed 8 of 1 of the others".
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  • Cinder - HarshlandsCinder - Harshlands Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    tek1nig wrote: »

    Nuema Max is 7 Currently - But I would side with the spirit stones - Although quite expensive on my server which it shouldn't be. But you'd need quote a few to get a goal of 100 extra spirit from the ornaments. That is the equivalent of what ? 10 Defense and Attack levels ? So that is better than a possible "maxed 8 of 1 of the others".

    but what about once the nuema level rises and that other tier of sky level comes? Pendulum might swing in favor of def levels then.
  • tek1nigtek1nig Posts: 793 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    but what about once the nuema level rises and that other tier of sky level comes? Pendulum might swing in favor of def levels then.

    I'd have to see the math behind it honestly. :/
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  • Embalmed - ArchosaurEmbalmed - Archosaur Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Spirit will always be better for the simple fact it adds the equivalent of both attack and defense. With the info Asterelle post regarding the new shards, the highest you'll be able to get it +2 defense or +2 attack with current combined spirit spirit shards already being higher than both at roughly 2.5 attack and 2.5 defense. There would have to be +4/5 defense/attack shards before they became better than spirit with the currently not in game lvl 5 spirit shards that are +32 spirit. Even then spirit covers both where attack/defense is only one.
  • Plethora - MoraiPlethora - Morai Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    As stated above, go for the spirit gems if you're endgame anyways. They're probably expensive but they're better than any other gems currently available.
  • ziplyn1ziplyn1 Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    As stated above, go for the spirit gems if you're endgame anyways. They're probably expensive but they're better than any other gems currently available.


    To my understanding SPIRIT depends on how your ATK/DEF lvl is higher than your opponent (player).
    Therefore no matter how high your spirit is, if the opponent have higher ATK/DEF lvl than you, then your spirit is useless.
    I maybe wrong. Im a noob. b:surrender
  • ziplyn1ziplyn1 Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    tek1nig wrote: »

    Nuema Max is 7 Currently - But I would side with the spirit stones - Although quite expensive on my server which it shouldn't be. But you'd need quote a few to get a goal of 100 extra spirit from the ornaments. That is the equivalent of what ? 10 Defense and Attack levels ? So that is better than a possible "maxed 8 of 1 of the others".


    Please explain why 100 extra spirit is equivalent to 10 Def /Attk levels.
    thanks b:surrender
  • Embalmed - ArchosaurEmbalmed - Archosaur Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    ziplyn1 wrote: »
    Please explain why 100 extra spirit is equivalent to 10 Def /Attk levels.
    thanks b:surrender

    10 spirit = 1 attack/defense lvl
    100/10 = 10
  • XShadowshotx - Heavens TearXShadowshotx - Heavens Tear Posts: 278 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    We are getting another 10 sky levels here in about a month or so along with Tier 8 Nuemas, spirit stones are a gigantic waste of money. When everyone who's endgame will have over 1k spirit. Im not sure what prices are for the other servers but for the +25 spirit shard, that's 27 of the +12 ones. Which is like 200m+ currently on HT. Just doesn't seem worth it.

    Basing this off HT prices. First socket 100% is 3 of the new socket stones. At about 7m ea. 42m for two sockets; 1 in each belt and neck. The 2nd socket its a 6% chance per which is 16 stones for 96%. Assuming PWI rounds up like they did with the 3 its 100. So that's 32 socket stones for 100% chance for the 2 2nd sockets on each. Which is 244mil. On top of the shard cost of 200m ea. That puts the price tag on that extra 100 spirit over 1 billion coin.
  • ziplyn1ziplyn1 Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    10 spirit = 1 attack/defense lvl
    100/10 = 10


    thanks.

    Where can i see that? coz in game when i hover mouse on spirit it doesnt says that.
    thanks again. b:pleased
  • opkossyopkossy Posts: 11,177 Community Moderator
    edited June 2015
    We are getting another 10 sky levels here in about a month or so along with Tier 8 Nuemas, spirit stones are a gigantic waste of money. When everyone who's endgame will have over 1k spirit. Im not sure what prices are for the other servers but for the +25 spirit shard, that's 27 of the +12 ones. Which is like 200m+ currently on HT. Just doesn't seem worth it.

    Basing this off HT prices. First socket 100% is 3 of the new socket stones. At about 7m ea. 42m for two sockets; 1 in each belt and neck. The 2nd socket its a 6% chance per which is 16 stones for 96%. Assuming PWI rounds up like they did with the 3 its 100. So that's 32 socket stones for 100% chance for the 2 2nd sockets on each. Which is 244mil. On top of the shard cost of 200m ea. That puts the price tag on that extra 100 spirit over 1 billion coin.

    Of course it's not worth it for those who aren't endgame yet. Closer and closer you get to endgame, the less and less cost effective whatever upgrades you get will be. Spirit stones are the best option for those who've maxed out everything else because of how spirit works. For those who aren't maxed out, though, it's as terrible of an investment as going for a full set of jades when you're not in +12 gears yet.
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  • Sylvae - SanctuarySylvae - Sanctuary Posts: 1,018 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    We are getting another 10 sky levels here in about a month or so along with Tier 8 Nuemas, spirit stones are a gigantic waste of money. When everyone who's endgame will have over 1k spirit. Im not sure what prices are for the other servers but for the +25 spirit shard, that's 27 of the +12 ones. Which is like 200m+ currently on HT. Just doesn't seem worth it.

    None of that has any bearing on whether they are good though. Because it is based on the difference in spirit, not over-all spirit being compared. So with the increase, it doesn't change it since everyone will get the increase. 100 more spirit from stones, will still be 100 extra spirit from stones when everyone is the new max boundary.
  • XShadowshotx - Heavens TearXShadowshotx - Heavens Tear Posts: 278 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    None of that has any bearing on whether they are good though. Because it is based on the difference in spirit, not over-all spirit being compared. So with the increase, it doesn't change it since everyone will get the increase. 100 more spirit from stones, will still be 100 extra spirit from stones when everyone is the new max boundary.

    So 10%, do you notice the differnce between sage and demon masteries? Because those are generally about 15%. That's essentially the point you're trying to make. Is that 10% is worth the 1bil just to have 10%. Good is a matter of opinoin, plain and simple. What is good now, changes as the wind blows. Its doesn't justify the cost of that 100 spirit. Say you hit an opponent for 5k, tack on that extra 10%. 5.5k. Congrats you just spent 1bil or more on 500 damage. With inkbloods in play all that difference ever will be is 100 spirit. And a few hundred points of damage.

    My point plain and simple that 10% is far too expensive to be persued at this point. Yes I plan to get it, but not in the immediate future. If the cost was 1/4 of what it is now then yes I'd be all for it.
  • $picylovah - Sanctuary$picylovah - Sanctuary Posts: 267 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Spirit is no longer 10 = 1att/1def
    Thats something from the past. (when everyone had much lower spirit values)

    With the coming sky levels aswell as higher nuema tiers I would estimate people to have an average of 1500 spirit, the people with the spirit increase will be on an average of 1600 then, at least the ones with competitive gear.

    The way spirit is calculated itll be 2600/2500 = 1.04, so an increase of 4%

    This puts 100 spirit at about a value of 4 def level (tho spirit also provides offensive value)

    It would depend on ur class if getting the extra damage is worth the amount of extra money u have to pay for it, or if u purely want the defensive value.

    Not to mention there's likely to be a future upgrade to def lvl stones to make them give 2 defense level, where as the spirit stone upgrade will only boost it to 32 spirit instead of 25 spirit.


    All this together still makes Spirit Stones better than Defense Level Stones, tho people are severely overestimating the difference, its not all that big, especially not if ur a class that doesnt benefit from the offensive value u get from spirit. Ultimately it depends on how much money you are willing to spend, and how much each of the shards cost on ur server. Its kind of a cost efficiency vs slot efficiency deal. On Sactuary people are buying brilliance shards for 20m each (of which ull need 27 for 1 stone so 540m), while I was able to obtain defense level shards for only 25m/ea. Cost efficiency is irrelevant for people with infinite supply tho.
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  • Mosz - Heavens TearMosz - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,181 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    So 10%, do you notice the differnce between sage and demon masteries? Because those are generally about 15%. That's essentially the point you're trying to make. Is that 10% is worth the 1bil just to have 10%. Good is a matter of opinoin, plain and simple. What is good now, changes as the wind blows. Its doesn't justify the cost of that 100 spirit. Say you hit an opponent for 5k, tack on that extra 10%. 5.5k. Congrats you just spent 1bil or more on 500 damage. With inkbloods in play all that difference ever will be is 100 spirit. And a few hundred points of damage.

    My point plain and simple that 10% is far too expensive to be persued at this point. Yes I plan to get it, but not in the immediate future. If the cost was 1/4 of what it is now then yes I'd be all for it.

    what the what the what, almost everythin about this post is completely absurd

    demon/sage passive.. its 15% of weapon damage so at endgame thats ~2% depending on class

    a 10% damage dif as the difference in your wep +10 and +12, would you +13 if you had the opportunity?

    at endgame an extra 10% damage is extremely hard to squeeze out, hell drakeflames/icebourns are generally 1% damage at endgame
  • XShadowshotx - Heavens TearXShadowshotx - Heavens Tear Posts: 278 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    what the what the what, almost everythin about this post is completely absurd

    demon/sage passive.. its 15% of weapon damage so at endgame thats ~2% depending on class

    a 10% damage dif as the difference in your wep +10 and +12, would you +13 if you had the opportunity?

    at endgame an extra 10% damage is extremely hard to squeeze out, hell drakeflames/icebourns are generally 1% damage at endgame

    It was my point that the 100 spirit they are jumping over is a waste to get. Yes of course anyone would just at the option to +13 their weapons. But that 100 spirit is not 10% on any class at this point; as already stated. Also +13 is not going to equal 100 spirit. As the above post mentioned it will be like 4%. Just basing the calculation off spirit. Lets say after the nuemas and next sky level 10 sky levels are reached by everyone and we have like 1500 spirit. So 1500 vs the person with all that and the 100 spirit gems is 1600. Is 1.06. You would be paying for a 6% damage increase.
  • opkossyopkossy Posts: 11,177 Community Moderator
    edited June 2015
    You're still ignoring that it's the best upgrade choice at the moment in terms of what it offers. Other options are cheaper, sure... but will give you less in comparison to spirit. Yes, it's too pricey for the people who aren't endgame to go for, but those people already have tons of OTHER upgrades to focus on.

    For those who only need to worry about this? Spirit's the best option they can pick. Even if, like Jades in comparison to vit stones, it's several times more expensive than the next best thing.
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  • XShadowshotx - Heavens TearXShadowshotx - Heavens Tear Posts: 278 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    OPKossy wrote: »
    You're still ignoring that it's the best upgrade choice at the moment in terms of what it offers. Other options are cheaper, sure... but will give you less in comparison to spirit. Yes, it's too pricey for the people who aren't endgame to go for, but those people already have tons of OTHER upgrades to focus on.

    For those who only need to worry about this? Spirit's the best option they can pick. Even if, like Jades in comparison to vit stones, it's several times more expensive than the next best thing.

    Never did I say it wasn't the best upgrade. I'm just siding on the point of cost effectiveness. That 100 spirit at its current price tag does not justify its benefit. I'd much rather point that coin to JoSD than that 100 spirit.
  • opkossyopkossy Posts: 11,177 Community Moderator
    edited June 2015
    Never did I say it wasn't the best upgrade. I'm just siding on the point of cost effectiveness. That 100 spirit at its current price tag does not justify its benefit. I'd much rather point that coin to JoSD than that 100 spirit.

    Thing is we can't argue cost effectiveness when talking about best X unless best is specifically about cost effectiveness. Prior to this we had Jades vs Vits with the general concensus of Jades being the same "not worth it" that you're placing the spirit stones as... with the exception of endgame players. Before that it was G12 shards (drakeflame/icebourne/etc) vs G11 and below... where G12s being "not worth it" for the tiny benefit compared to lower shards while being vastly more expensive. Ditto TM interval capes, Warsoul, and so on and so forth.

    The "best" upgrades have always been the most cost inefficient ones because the nature of what they were (and people being people) always made them vastly more expensive than other options. Same thing is going on here and is likely to continue until the game shuts down.

    So are they worth it? Absolutely not unless you're already at endgame prior to their introduction and want to improve. Are they the best you can get? Absolutely and the best is always going to be synonymous with most expensive in this game because of how we do things here.





    Edit: Just to make sure I'm being clear. I agree with you entirely that it's completely cost inefficient to get these. However, I disagree on it not being worth it because if you're already near the top you're going to be extremely limited in your options. For those who are always closest to endgame, the only choices they have are always the most expensive ones and this is no different. For everyone else, however? Yeah don't bother with the spirit stones and focus on everything else you can upgrade first.
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  • Joe - MoraiJoe - Morai Posts: 1,299 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    You might wanna call me old-fashioned but...forget about spirit and DEF/Att-lvl here for a second. For any Class that is not Arcane (Cept venos) I honestly believe that Vit Stones are the best choice.

    Judging from the countless discussions about vit or josd where it always favoured in terms of josd...ya it is quite obvious? 2 Def lvl might be better compared to 10 Vit. But 13 Vit are sure as hell better compared to 1 tiny def level. I would even go as far saying that if you already have quite some Def lvl the 16 vit stones would be better compared to the 2 def ones (if they ever come out).

    Why? Simply because anyone could need a bit more HP and unpurifyable defense. Sure, in special situations and special matchup you could surely gain more advantages while using Att or Def lvl shards...but the same story applies to gear sharding.

    Caster should shard pdef if they are josd sharded. Especially WIzards and Mystics due to their buffs and thereby even bigger gain.

    Spirit is not a factor anymore imho. Sure my Chars overspirit most ppl on my server...but 100 spirit more or less pretty much do nothing. This will worsen when anyone gets a passive spirit boost for ~500 with the next sky level/nuemas. 100 spirit will get even more useless.

    Instead of gaining spirit via Orna-sharding where spirit is very very costly simply get yourselfes together and get good cards instead. I've seen so many max geared ppl (Full +12 josd/deity) not even having a full A-Card set or even random full S-Cards. And those ppl getting all crazy about 100 and wanna drop in billions to get that? redicolous. Some of you guys should THINK before doing something.

    But what do I know xD not that I'm fully F2P and still got 3!!! friggin chars with Full Six Candleflame Set (mostly rbed).

    ppl tend to get all hyped up when something new is released. Chill. Actually experience the difference in spirit, try it out, notice how unnoticable it is when the dif is below 200.

    I always do it that way: If an investment in gears doesn't push me to the next level (meaning I can beat ppl I couldn't beat before due to gear gap) and don't do that investment. Why? Because it is too expensive and I might wanna work on something that pushes me to that level first. So. If someone who didnt manage to beat me would shard up his Ornamanets with the maximum currently possible then excuse me if I dare to say that it won't make any difference while fighting. At the moment this whole system is useless and adds only very little fighting/survival power to the character.

    In the end it doesnt matter what you do, just stop acting as it would make any difference as to what stones you shard in the 4 avaible sockets.
    My Barb:
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  • muliermulier Posts: 305 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    2 sets

    'psyistehbests
  • $picylovah - Sanctuary$picylovah - Sanctuary Posts: 267 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    You might...avaible sockets.

    While I agree with most of what ur saying, I dont know why u wouldnt make the same point for arcane classes.

    Looking at ur 2 own chars the 64 vit wud bump ur barb from:

    50139 to 52043 which is an increase in hp of 3,79%
    pdmg reduction from 93.71% to 93.80%
    mdmg reduction from 84.99% to 85.28%

    And ur SB wud go from:

    16224 to 16928 which is an increase in hp of 4.34%
    pdmg reduction from 84.65% to 84.98%
    mdmg reduction from 90.81% to 90.95%


    The way I see it the vit stones are even better on arcane armor than they are on heavy armor, correct me if im wrong tho, the way sum of the shot in PWI is calculated still doesnt make sense to me b:surrender
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  • Joe - MoraiJoe - Morai Posts: 1,299 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    While I agree with most of what ur saying, I dont know why u wouldnt make the same point for arcane classes.

    Looking at ur 2 own chars the 64 vit wud bump ur barb from:

    50139 to 52043 which is an increase in hp of 3,79%
    pdmg reduction from 93.71% to 93.80%
    mdmg reduction from 84.99% to 85.28%

    And ur SB wud go from:

    16224 to 16928 which is an increase in hp of 4.34%
    pdmg reduction from 84.65% to 84.98%
    mdmg reduction from 90.81% to 90.95%


    The way I see it the vit stones are even better on arcane armor than they are on heavy armor, correct me if im wrong tho, the way sum of the shot in PWI is calculated still doesnt make sense to me b:surrender

    Ya, that is indeed true and TBH I currently aim for mostly HP on my Storm. I can take dmg quite good already, especially physical DMG BUT I got such a lack in HP.

    While I already thought about going vit on my Storm, too...well I think I will end up using a combination of everything. I never been someone who would use the same shards just for the consistency of it. I will surely use pure vits on the Barb, no doubt to that.

    For the storm I planned on going:

    Neck: Pdef, Vit, Spirit, Att-lvl
    Belt, Pdef, Vit, Spirit, Def-lvl

    This way I get the best of both worlds + I can round up my Def/Att lvl values (which is for looks only mainly xDDDDDDDDD)

    But ya, you never go wrong with Vit. People mostly tend to forget that the defense added by Stats (Vit, Mag, Str) are undebuffable stats, or rather there is no such debuff ingame that could reach the hights to even reduce them. Doesn't look like much on paper, but it adds up.

    When 4 Socks are out and the 16 vit stones...thats a solid 128 extra vit. Like da hell. Thats over half a set of Vit stones sharded in the armor.
    My Barb:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#146464

    My SB:
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  • Evryn - MoraiEvryn - Morai Posts: 1,437 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    At a glance I'd say Spirit is the better choice. Unless you're talking PvE, but who would shard in deflvls for PvE...
    I'm so P.R.O... I Press Respawn Often.

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  • PRElST - MoraiPRElST - Morai Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Its actually depends:
    1)on your class

    lets say assasin : ofc he needs to go att lvl/ spirit
    wizard on the other hand : def lvl /spirit

    2)your actual sharding

    if you are already full josd then go get battlement stone
    if you are deity / some everage g10 shards then go spirit

    3)your playstyle

    are you offensive guy ? --->spirit
    are you defensive guy? --->battlement
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  • XXHotXx - MoraiXXHotXx - Morai Posts: 1,246 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    next patch boundary + nuemas will add like what 900 spirit?

    thus reducing spirit gap effectiveness

    calculated 100 spirit diff will give a 0.02% return (long-term wise) while 4 def levels will give a 0.04%

    considering that 4 def will be upgraded into 8 -> 0.08% return -> i went for full battlement
    mypers.pw/1.7/#123510
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  • Evryn - MoraiEvryn - Morai Posts: 1,437 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    That 0.02% is both offensive and defensive though.
    The 0.04% is defensive only.
    I'm so P.R.O... I Press Respawn Often.

    Ulsyr 103/103/104 BM. Working on the last R9 part (Axe).
    Khelvan 103/103/103 LA Cler. LA? LA. Deal with it.
    Evryn 103/102/101 Sagely Mystical Myst of Mystiness.
    Gromth 102/102/102 Sage Panda.
    StoneSnake - Snakeshop for everyone's common stones.
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