True potential of R8r

mistressmuerta · May 2015

Satyrion - Sanctuary wrote: »

I like how JoSD was mentioned useless (or at least wont always save you) against ironwood proc+arcane antinomy while the physical damage reduction seems the same.

One thing i would like to point out the % reduction is more effective based on what damage type you are trying to reduce vs flat out def lvls.

A good way to test take the same build and remove everything. Then equip a cape or something and do a damage calc with just flat 40% reduction and then do the same calc with only 40 def lvls and both at 0 defence.

38k with 40 def lvls with desd'i AA vs 28k with 40% reduction for desdi's AA on a Hexplicit wearing matchless(with appropriate mods)

It is more difficult to aquire more % reduction vs getting more def lvls. Only difference is % reduction has no diminishing returns like defense lvls do. at 100% redcution if it were possible your character would become immune to the dmg type you are reducing.

This is definately some bull you can probably pull off on a private server. LOL it would be truly amusing but 100%physical/magic reduction would get boring and old really fast.

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Suddenly I've become a test victim. b:shocked

Hahahah indeed you and syntheros are making me feel like Mr. Sinister. From your builds i will create an army of "Perfect Characters " to take down Pan Gu.b:laughb:laughb:laugh

Satyrion - Sanctuary · May 2015

mistressmuerta wrote: »

One thing i would like to point out the % reduction is more effective based on what damage type you are trying to reduce vs flat out def lvls.

A good way to test take the same build and remove everything. Then equip a cape or something and do a damage calc with just flat 40% reduction and then do the same calc with only 40 def lvls and both at 0 defence.

38k with 40 def lvls with desd'i AA vs 28k with 40% reduction for desdi's AA on a Hexplicit wearing matchless(with appropriate mods)

It is more difficult to aquire more % reduction vs getting more def lvls. Only difference is % reduction has no diminishing returns like defense lvls do. at 100% redcution if it were possible your character would become immune to the dmg type you are reducing.

This is definately some bull you can probably pull off on a private server. LOL it would be truly amusing but 100%physical/magic reduction would get boring and old really fast.

...Which still kills you... And as you mentioned, defense levels are easier to get. A person that go for defense levels will have more defense levels than a person that go for physical damage reduction will have physical damage reduction stats. Therefore I wouldnt compare 40 defense level to 40 physical damage reduction.

Eirghan - Sanctuary · May 2015

b:cute

Desdi is our barbie girl. Lets dress her up in some creations nowb:dirty

mistressmuerta · May 2015

My last post was demonstating how % reduction is more effective than def lvls. Why would I not compare them to defence lvls on even terms. I have no idea how to make it anymore simple for you Satyrion. At least Eirghan stated there is some other mysterious factor involved which im pretty sure is the damage output/attack lvls of the attacker being reduced. If i have 30k base magic/attack and i hit you at 0 defense vs a player with 50k base attack same attack lvls, im willing to bet the 50k is going to do more damage on the opponent. It comes down to do you have enough hp to tank the enemies damage at 0 defense after the attackers attack lvls and your defense lvls are factored. I apologize if the way i talk sounds critical, i just like to explain things in detail. Did you not see the build itself consists of both %reduction and defense lvls? When was it stated in any of these post that any of the builds were built with only % reduction aside from how to view how % works in the calculator.(where did you even get that idea?)

A % and def lvl are not the same. This explains why at 100% reduction your character does not take damage regardless of defense lvls.

QueNa - Sanctuary · May 2015

I get what you're trying to say about the % and the defence levels but why exactly are we discussing 0 pdef right now? In just about every situation the person is 1-shottable. Hexplicit and Desdi can 1-shot each other either way. Even if you give them buffs (talking like HP buff, no pdef i know its 0). The only time I see Hexplicit not 1-shotting Desdi is if I give her +12 JOSD so then if Hexplicit crits anything lower than 26k then Desdi survives the complete 1shot. The damage given by the calc is 22633-26094 and the JOSD +12 Desdi has exactly 26k HP (this is with EP debuff only... if you add like amp or HF then Hexplicit can 1shot Desdi np.)

So what is the point exactly? b:puzzled Neither person can survive the 1shot.

I still stand by my previous post: you can get similar/same results for cheaper. But if we're gonna try to take OPs build and see how it applies to different situations in theory at least we should be discussing other aspects no? anybody and everybody dies from 0pdef.

mistressmuerta · May 2015

We have moved beyond the whole 1 shot thing, cost, ect. I am simply pointing out how % reduction is superior to def lvls at similar levels. The only scenario where they would be even close is at 0 defenses on either end. If you equip regular gears magic def or pdef and 80%reduction you will take alot less damage as opposed to someone with the same defense lvls alone. It is like having a perpetual bramble hood. Stack those with defense lvls and your character is an absolute tank. That is where the problem arose in when deciding which class to pick to fight the possiblity of penetration. Any r8r can pull of similar reduction but only the veno has debuffs powerful enough to deal damage through such a defense without attempting some 5 spark combo.

This is where penetration will become a factor, if i am correct that is how it is going to work. One way to look at is how one counters the other. Attack lvls counter defense lvls(vice versa) where reduction counters penetration. The only way i foresee this not working out is if pw creates another damage type like spirit.

P.S. You can not die at 100% reduction with 0 defences.

opkossy · May 2015

100% phys/mag damage reduction is just theorycrafting regardless.

We have a cap on base defenses where it won't go above a certain amount regardless of how high you get it. Defense levels give diminishing returns to ensure that 100 defense levels over someone's attack level doesn't grant total invincibility. Same applies to Warding level and spirit. Even -channeling has a cap that prevents you from getting to 100 and completely eliminating channel time. It's very hard to believe that there's no such limit for this stat considering how everything else works. Odds are it has a practical maximum of 90% or so. Which means you actually can compare a player with stacked defense levels and no base defense to this character having stacked damage reduction (of only one type) and no defense levels... but then you'd have to consider the player relying on defense levels has better defense overall because they have all incoming damage reduced instead of just one type.

Desdi - Sanctuary · May 2015

Critical Hit ratio also has a cap at 95% as far as I remember. Even when Fox Wallop proc'd, the character screen showed 95% (unless it's been changed now), although Fox Wallop itself might have a different mechanic to ensure all attacks are Crits.

When the base defence cap was 90% (now 95%), it was often the argument of going full HA vs. R9rr. Since R9rr with NW ornaments could reach 90% physical defence resistance (in Fox Form), it rendered HA's additional defence kinda obsolete. Of course, HA still had more defence in human form though. Assuming big budget, endgame builds of course.

So with all this into account, I think it's safe to assume the damage reduction add has a cap of 90% or 95% as well. Pretending that we have insane luck, reaching 90% would be cool, but it would make you sacrifice your magic defence/reduction, which would make the person food for the magic classes. Hexplicit's current 41%/39% reduction is probably the most balanced option.

On another note, to muerta (or should I call you Hexplicit?), if you want to go ahead with this build I would suggest that you don't go through it until the new expansion comes. You can save up your shards, orbs etc. and have them ready (probably re-roll parts in the meantime), but it might be best to wait on it. It would be sad to get screwed over, if the Astrolabe system works in a completely different/new way.

I remember when I was farming so hard to get my G16 Nirvana Glaive (and Nirvana gear) so I could have fun in NW, TW etc. (it was then when I started PvPing regularly/seriously/trying to improve) and a few days after I made my weapon, we got the expansion and Rapture/Uncanny market crashed because of NW forge rates... I could have saved so much money if I had waited xP

Eirghan - Sanctuary · May 2015

OPKossy wrote: »

100% phys/mag damage reduction is just theorycrafting regardless.

We have a cap on base defenses where it won't go above a certain amount regardless of how high you get it. Defense levels give diminishing returns to ensure that 100 defense levels over someone's attack level doesn't grant total invincibility. Same applies to Warding level and spirit. Even -channeling has a cap that prevents you from getting to 100 and completely eliminating channel time. It's very hard to believe that there's no such limit for this stat considering how everything else works. Odds are it has a practical maximum of 90% or so. Which means you actually can compare a player with stacked defense levels and no base defense to this character having stacked damage reduction (of only one type) and no defense levels... but then you'd have to consider the player relying on defense levels has better defense overall because they have all incoming damage reduced instead of just one type.

This pretty much says it all. While we can hypothesize that a 100% physical damage ‰ reduction stat is more OP than defense levels (perhaps even at capped levels) there is pretty much no way that you would be able to achieve both a mag damage and phys damage reduction stat at OP levels (lets say 75%+) using the same set of armor. If you look at the earlier comparison of a magic damage standoff between the venos, damage even at +12 full jades this build is only just barely (and maybe not quite) an even match for a veno at +10 farmable incomparables. So this build truly becomes a situational winner, only really able to succeed end-game against barbs, bms, or sins, classes that are severely limited in magic damage skills. This is basically in my opinion the ranked gears answer to HA veno: your pdef rocks and your mdef and damage now improved (over g16 HA build) but you still better run if you see an r999 wizard coming for you b:chuckle

The trade off, even discounting cost and end-game gear progression (desdi has the capeability to get even more hp and better defenses given the money while you are stuck at the defenses we used unless serenity stones get released) is not worth it to me since defense levels reduce both stat damages, but comparing this as a solution to an even more imbalanced gear setup like HA this build shines.

Your demonstration was really enlightening as to why this stat reduction is so important and ill keep it in mind as i work on my gear further.

Satyrion - Sanctuary · May 2015

I never said I didnt understand how physical damage reduction works. If you want that super high % it will leave you squisy to the other type of damage, and I dont think anybody would be interested in being that limited.
Your build is of course lower %, its more balanced but the rolls will still be very hard, but then we are down on a % where I start thinking the survivial start being equal, well close enough to r999 where I would rather want to go for more defense levels, with the bonus of more magic attack and attack level - and of course purify spell and channelling.
This is of course a matter of your taste, and whatever will happen in the upcoming expansion could change some things and maybe even my mind, but so far - it's not worth it for me.

Don't forget to record if you ever do this build b:thanks you have to! b:chuckle
Im still be curious to see how it would actually work out.

Desdi - Sanctuary · May 2015

Satyrion - Sanctuary wrote: »

Don't forget to record if you ever do this build b:thanks you have to! b:chuckle

^
Plus, it's always nice to see more Veno-videos.

mistressmuerta · May 2015

It will problably take a century even though it is possible to get both high def lvls and around 40% reduction magic/phyiscal at the same time with the sacrifice of attack lvls. The honing forge is going to become my best friend once i get the rolls. I would definately make a video. My use of suppression/pets is about as abstract as this build.

Satyrion - Sanctuary · May 2015

If you decide to go the r8rr way I will pray you may get high values as soon you get the rolls, the hone material seem rather rare. b:shocked 2x Garan for every hone...
average materials that drop per run <- in case you are interested, 1 run is 1 hour unless your squad is strong.

mistressmuerta · August 2015

Hello all just an update.....I have successfully achieved 40% pdmg reduction but was only able to get 10% magic dmg reduction. I decided to just go with r8r instead of r8rr which saved me alot of time and money. It only cost around 70m with nw token services + my own nw contributions. The only thing i have left to do is get the last card in the six candle flame set, upgrade my nw rings, and +12 my ornaments for the 40% to truly shine. Rerolling sucked btw. The boots cost me a good 20m while i got all the other rerolls in about 3-4 rerolls. Then it was just a matter of honing. On the downside im probably just going to quit after i finish my experiment and make a video because pw made a poor business choice in not keeping the pvp servers imo. I checked the nasdaq before the server merge and pw was up 1.77% the last few quarters, so idk what their approach is. Get people to play thier other games? torch light?lol(sarcasm)

True potential of R8r

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